Ken “Hambone” Ham, operator of the Creation Museum, and a noted young earth creationist (YEC), states in no uncertain terms that no one is good. Of course, in classic Hambone style he contradicts himself just a few words later.
Recently atheists and other secular humanists decided to promote a “National Day of Reason” in opposition to the National Day of Prayer, which was held last Tuesday. These secularists stated that “We are trying to make a better world on our own by emphasizing good works and good deeds on the day” (emphasis added).
I couldn’t help but smile when I saw this statement about secularists wanting to do “good deeds.” So how does an atheist or agnostic determine what is “good”?
I’m reminded of Luke 18 where the rich young ruler came to Jesus:
Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.” (Luke 18:18–19)
There is only one absolute standard by which anyone can determine what is “good,” and that is from the absolute authority who is all “good”—God! Outside of such an absolute standard, “good” is whatever you want to make it to be (if you can get away with it)—it is totally subjective. Some people think it is “good” to steal, for instance. When a culture abandons the absolute standard for what is “good” (as this culture is progressively doing in throwing out God’s Word), then we will see people doing what is right in their own eyes—as we are increasingly experiencing. The recent announcement by the president of the USA in support of “gay” marriage is just one such example—he abandoned the absolute standard for what is “good” and now is wanting to impose his subjective opinion on the nation.
Ham has no love for atheists, agnostics, humanists, deists, liberal Christians, and practioners of non-Christian religions. In fact, he has no love for some who fly under the same Evangelical flag as he does. Ham requires that Evangelicals be circumcised on the 6th literal day just like he was before he will consider them part of the true-blue, blessed by God, sanctified Christian church. Ham is a God said it and I believe it Christian. In his worldview there is no room for discussion, debate, difference of opinion, or nuance. Ken God has spoken!
In honor of Ken Ham, I want to take the Bible exactly as written. Ken uses Luke 18:18,19 to “prove” that no one is good. He could have used other verses like Romans 3:10:12:
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
In using Luke 18:18,19 Ham has a conundrum on his hands. In this passage Jesus says very clearly that no one is good. He is responding to the rich young ruler who called him “good teacher.” Jesus replied:
Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
Jesus makes it clear that no human being is good. Only God is good. Now Jesus is talking with the rich younger ruler as a human being. Since no human being is good then Jesus is not good.
Of course the standard Evangelical comeback is that Jesus was God and human so he was good. But what about his human nature? At best, all one could claim is that Jesus had a split nature, that he was good and bad.
Looking at it this way it seems to me that Jesus was just like every human being I have ever met. Not the God part, of course. Jesus wasn’t God and neither is anyone else. Jesus was a mixture of good and bad just like every human being is. All of us are capable of doing good things and doing bad things.
Evangelicals like Ham, if pressed, must admit that their theology says EVERY human being, Christian or not, is bad. In the delusional world of Ken Ham, good only comes from God. God enables human beings to do good, even non-Christian human beings. God gets all the credit for the good in the world and human beings/Satan get all the blame for the bad.
This works out perfect for God. He can do whatever he wants and if it turns out bad it is our fault or Satan’s fault. In O.J. Simpson parlance, the glove never fits.
Ham believes the Bible is the absolute, infallible, impeccable standard of good. I suppose he makes some attempt to argue away the passages that promote or condone slavery, incest, prostitution, and killing anyone who doesn’t worship the Christian God. No Christian believes every word of the Bible, not without resorting to some sort of Bible-gymnastics.
Many of us have come to the conclusion that the “good” God of the Christian bible is anything but. He certainly can be good, but he is often a mean spirited, capricious, arrogant son-of-a-bitch. He is a God, according to the Bible, who is quite willing to use violence to get what he wants. We should be glad such a good God does not exist.
If the Bible is God’s absolute standard by which good is measured, why do Christians disagree with one another about what constitutes “good.” Ham accuses atheists of making it up as they go……..is it any different among Christians?
Every human being determines for themselves what is good and bad. Our upbringing, exposure to religious or philosophical teachings, social environment, education, and social contracts we make with one another, help us determine what moral and ethical standard we will live by.
Ham, and Christians like him, demand an absolute source for determining good and bad. They put their faith in a book that has not had an entry written in it for over 1900 years. The world has changed dramatically since Jesus walked the shores of Galilee. While the Bible may offer us an occasional nugget of wisdom, it has little to say to us when it comes to morality and ethics in this modern day. In fact, it teaches things that thinking people now abhor. (though I am rethinking the whole concubine thing)
We have outgrown the bondage of the Bible. Where Ham sees degradation and people doing whatever they want to do, I see freedom. The freedom to do good things, and yes the freedom to do bad things.
In classic homophobic fashion Ham focuses on the issue of gay marriage. President Obama’s support of gay marriage is a sign to Ken Ham that we have abandoned the absolute standard of good and have instead turned to a subjective standard of good. (situational ethics)
He is right on the first part. We HAVE abandoned the Bible standard of good. We have weighed the Bible’s treatment of homosexuals in the balance of decency and civil rights and found it wanting.
It is a sign of progress when we no longer consider a class of people evil, reprobates, and the enemy of God. Homosexuals are human beings, just like me, Ken Ham, and everyone else. They are capable of doing good and bad just like any human being is. As far as them being married? How does two men or two women marrying each other affect my life or Ken Ham’s life? It is a non-issue. It makes no difference at all.
The good news is this……….we are winning the battle against the Ken Ham’s of the world. The bad news is that this is a generation-long battle, a battle that my grandkids will still be fighting long after my ashes are spread along the shore of Lake Michigan. We must be strong, willing to push back at EVERY attempt to drag the world back into the constraints of the Christian Bible.
Christianity has had 2000 years to work its magic. Look at what it has given us. While I am in no way suggesting that Christianity is evil, I am suggesting that Christianity has proven to be a failed standard by which to govern people. There is a better way, a way that supports and promotes diversity and celebrates individuality. It is called secular humanism.
For those who are unsure about what I mean when I say secular humanism, let me finish this post with the Council of Secular Humanism’s answer to the “What is Secular Humanism?” question:
Secular Humanism is a term which has come into use in the last thirty years to describe a world view with the following elements and principles:
- A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted on faith.
- Commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence, and scientific methods of inquiry, rather than faith and mysticism, in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions.
- A primary concern with fulfillment, growth, and creativity for both the individual and humankind in general.
- A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it.
- A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us.
- A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility.
- A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.
Who says YOUR view is the right view? You claim that Christians are bigoted, but you prove yourself a bigot for believing that you’re right. Who made YOU or even society the standard for anything spiritual? Please tell me why you are right, as opposed to a Christian or a Muslim?
I don’t think I am right. I can only look at the available evidence and come to a rational, reasoned decision. All I have done here is expressed my opinion based on my understanding of the evidence. You might what to try this approach. It is a cure for closed mindedness.
Bigotry’s definition is not “I believe I’m right.”
You are correct, the definition of a bigot is “a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.” http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigot?s=t
By claiming truth (which now I see he is NOT doing – his words) I believed him to be discrediting and throwing out the Christian religion. He says he does not believe he is correct, in which case, he is not a bigot. But that also means he’s not right.
Actually my goal is to help people who are considering leaving Christianity or who have already left. As long as Christians keep their religion to themselves and don’t try to turn our secular state into a theocracy I am indifferent to Christianty. However, Evsngelicals are heaven bent on shoving their religion down everyone’s throat so…..the fight is on.
“I don’t think I am right.” – Obviously there is no point in arguing here… Obviously you insinuiate that I am close-minded, but given the hermenutic you use, I would tell you the same thing.
Yes, I think you and most Evangelical Christians are closed minded. It is the nature of the beast. A belief in an inerrant bible demands closing the mind off to any other worldview or thought. Unless you are willing lose your belief about the Bible there is no hope for you. Note, I didn’t say lose your Christianity.
Bruce tell me why you are right! I demand that you list some authority higher than yourself! Preferably some sort of magical sky fairy with the proper credentials, or some other such nonsense will be acceptable, but please do not use yourself or society as a source of insight. That would be ridiculous.
even the muslims believe Christ is the only “man without sin”…..as usual, you have twisted the truth to fit your argument…..
No, all I have done is used Ham’s logic to fit my argument.
There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any
profane history. I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by men who were inspired. I study the Bible daily. -Sir Isaac Newton
So Newton was ignorant like you?
Newton was a product of his time, like all of us are.
Newton also devoted large parts of his life to the practice of alchemy (look it up).
Sometimes people can be extraordinarily brilliant in one way, and completely stupid in another. Nice try though, I like the general idea behind the argument. “This brilliant mathematician/physicist believed in the bible, therefore it is true.”
Mr. Gerebcser, I think you actually need to listen to Ken Ham before you pass judgment on him. I have come to appreciate his outlook on many facets of the Christian walk and yet disagree with him on other things. He has said many times that there is only one way to God and if you believe differently than he does but still have faith in Christ, you are saved. Well, actually the Bible speaks about this as well and Ken Ham is a good servant of scripture.
You made a point here that I take exception to. You stated that, ”
We have outgrown the bondage of the Bible. Where Ham sees degradation and people doing whatever they want to do, I see freedom. The freedom to do good things, and yes the freedom to do bad things.” Can you show me where outgrowing the Bible is a positive thing? Who do you think we are? We are not God. Where is scripture does it say that allowing sin is the correct thing to do? Where does the Bible even hint at this? Simple. It does not. I am more free inside the saving grace of Christ than I was as someone who was lost. The greatest lie ever told is that sin does not exist. This is the same problem Adam and Eve had back in the garden. This problem still exists today. You choose to classify it as something else, but rest assured the Bible is clear on this fact.
Your viewpoint(s) are simply not in line with Christianity or Christian ethics. You have seemingly abandoned the truth of the scripture to pursue your own desires which the Bible calls sins. Homosexuality is incompatible with scripture. This is not homophobic as you suggest. It is called sin. We do not condemn those lost in sin. We pray for them. We should appreciate those lost in homosexuality as human beings but also share the truth of the love of gospel with them without compromising the scriptures. The same goes for those who are liars, cheaters, manipulators, frauds, and the list goes on and on.
I am a student of history and rest assured that all the great nations throughout time fell not from some outside attack, but they fell first due to a moral collapse on the inside.
The truly sad part is, you are correct in that you are winning the battle. What you fail miserably at is that you have already lost the war and yet, you do not recognize it. In Numbers 32:23 is says, ”
“But if you will not do so, behold, you have sinned against the LORD, and be sure your sin will find you out.”
Remember, eternity is a very, very long time. Christ loves you and died for your sins and then rose again for your justification. Have faith and accept him, turn from your wicked ways and live a holy life, pleasing unto God. It is your choice who you serve, God or man. I would suggest to you Mr.Gerebcser that you choose wisely. God does love you. I hope and pray that you come to recognize that fact and accept His salvation found in Christ.
Duh, genius, I am an atheist. Did you read anything else on this blog other than this post?
I “know” Ken Ham. I used to be just like him when I was an Evangelical pastor. I know how he thinks, what he believes, and how he views life.
I have abandoned the Bible because I found it to not be what it claimed to be. It is not a supernatural book. It is nothing more than an ancient literary work, an admixture of fiction and non-fiction.
You do realize quoting Bible verses, preaching at me, and the like have no effect? None. Zero. Nada. I have no fear that God is going to get me and send me to hell. I fear my wife more than I fear your pretend God.
I don’t need to choose, I already chose. No God for me.
“Remember, eternity is a very, very long time.”
We are shaking in our boots Mark! Tell us the magic gospel words, tell us about Jesus so we will get the magic sorcery of the Holy Spirit to transform us into silly arrogant ass holes like Ken Ham!
By this point you should realize that your threats are as believable as the idea that a talking snake brought death into the world. No one is scared of you, or your imaginary sky fairy. You can threaten and threaten all day long. We have read your bible, probably more times than you have, we know whats in it, we know how completely ridiculous it is. Threatening us with eternal torment so we will give up our brains like you is about as scary as hippies threatening to punch us in our auras for all eternity. Take your silly superstitions elsewhere.
That’s it. This is too good not to share. I’ll include this in my next “commentary tidbits” post.
Wow! The comments sure got highjacked by the godly today, didn’t they? Sorry about that, Bruce. *rolls eyes in sympathy*
Quintin: This is Bruce’s blog — he states his own opinions. He has had *extensive* experience with christianity: he was an Evangelical pastor for 25 years; he knows the bible inside and out; he has heard all the arguments on both sides. After weighing all the facts and factors, after submitting the question to the tests of reason and logic, he found that religion in general and christianity in particular no longer made any sense to him. This is his belief, as yours is that christianity is correct — the difference is that he bases his belief on evidence, and most christians base theirs on faith, often in *despite* of evidence.
Bob: What does a quote by Sir Isaac Newton have to do with anything?
Alan: What the Muslims say about Christ is irrelevant. Bruce merely presented the difficulty in using a literal interpretation of the bible to determine Jesus’ moral makeup. He didn’t twist anything — he merely quoted the bible verbatim and reasoned from there.
Mark: You really need to read more of a person’s blog before you start evangelizing; if you had, you would have saved yourself a lot of time. See my response to Quintin, or Bruce’s post from *just this last Monday*: basically, there is nothing you can say to Bruce to convert him (back) to Jesus. He’s been there, he’s done that, he’s weighed the facts, he’s over it. This said, your entire argument on morality is moot, as you appeal to scripture as proof of what is good and bad, but that approach only works if both sides in the argument allow that the bible is an authority in the case, which Bruce does not do.
But thanks for playing, everyone!
Thanks for giving the “godly” a heads up.
I suspect my post made its way to Facebook or Twitter and the Hamites found it and felt “led” to respond.
After I posted I was kind of worried that maybe I’d overstepped myself, but I’ve read so much of your blog I thought I knew your positions well enough to save you a little time and annoyance (especially if your MS was flaring up) by cutting ‘em off at the pass. Obviously, you were up to the challenge today after all, praise dog. ^_^
Yeah, I read some of the comments over on Ham’s FB — it actually made me a little queasy. The scars run a bit too deep, I guess.
I am so sorry he wasted those 25 years, but it is nice to see that he knows the bible so well, he can’t even read it properly. If I read his blog the same way he reads the bible, I see a selfish, sexist, hateful person. I apologize, I will leave, since you clearly know everything there is to know about Christianity.
For me, I know all I need to know about Christianity. So, if I do not read it like you do and come to the same conclusions, I am not reading it properly? Who decides this? Isn’t every person the final authority? Every person decides for themselves what the Bible says? This might be different if there weren’t thousands of Christian sects. The truth is there are many Jesus’s and many Christianties. Every believer has his wn Jesus, his own Cbristianity. When ya all get it figured out Te me know. Then, you might have something to say about my reading of the Bible.
You are correct when you say there are many Jesus’. Many people (99%) misrepresent who He really was! You misrepresent the historical authenticity of the person of Jesus Christ when you speak of Him so casually however. This is coupled with the general misrepresentation of how accurate the Bible is as a source of historical information. Can you point to one location at which the Bible has clearly been factually dis-proven? As in, archaeological evidence that has been produced? On the contrary, it has been proven throughout history. So, no more chapters need to be added to the book. Science does prove Christ and in this is the Truth. You are correct, everyone will miss it. We have all grown up in this twisted world. Our unconscious is so formed by this curse in ways we will never be cognizant. Here in lies some of the reasons I attempt to remain humble.
But all this does not dismiss the fact that I have some of the same experiences as you my friend. Which is why I say we all miss it in the way that we relate to each other, and understand the world around us. The very way through which we interact with our surroundings is always so incredibly tinted. Every thing that has ever happened to you builds this unconscious filter, so how anyone can say with certainty yes, I’ve got it figured out, you are correct, how do you know? And prove? This is why I say lets focus on what we can prove, which ends up being, in fact, the entirety of the B. I. B. L. E.
This is archaeological evidence that we dig up from around the world. I think we ought to give it due justice and at least put some effort into trying to figure out why we find this book on every continent, around the world. Thousands of copies…. Like half the worlds population believing in some religion that uses the Bible as some kind of reference text… of course people will never have 100% clear vision or understanding, but yeah the possibility exists that there might be something there. Through my unconscious filters and tinted glasses I can see it, hidden from and deceived by generations of evil, selfish people, but yes there is something there. His name is Messiah Yeshua if you need to label Him differently to think about the real person differently.
What is your opinion of C.S. Lewis?
Sometimes we forget that you surely CAN read it properly. We forget that you have the inner sorcery of the holy spirit that makes shit like talking snakes and donkeys and Noah’s ark make sense.
Also, if Christianity is true, you are not a Christian. You are here trading insults just like everyone else. There is no reason to think a holy spirit is sanctifying you.
There are so many things that could be addressed in this article but one of the most culturally appropirate is this…..everyone who calls homosexuality a sin is NOT homophobic. Also, it is true that morality is on the decline and that is the beginning of the end of our great nation. The scriptures say that to whom much has been given much will be demanded and we have been given much yet instead of gratefully giving back to God we continue to take on a more and more selfish “its all about me” kind of attitude. The fact is that the end will come, Jesus will return. We will all spend eternity somewhere. God has given us the choice and the free will. He has never taken away our free will, He just simply communicates that there will be consequenses, and eternal ones at that, for our choices. The decision is always ours.
I call them like I see them. A person who does not support equal rights for all races is a racist. I person who does not support equal rights for all sexes is sexist. And…….drum roll….those who do not support equal rights for homosexuals are homophobic.
The rest of your comment? Just another Christian sermonizing.
No, Bruce, using your logic it should be called homosexist, but instead a word was invented that made it sound like something was wrong with the person who knows same-sex relationships are wrong (whether for religious reasons or evolutionary ones), instead of the ones engaging in the aberrant behavior..
I think it’s funny that you use the word “know”, that you “know” homosexuality is wrong. When in reality what you mean is:
“My magic book told me it was wrong, so it’s wrong.”
You don’t know shit. Nice try though.
There IS something wrong with someone who wants to deny any class of people civil and constitutional rights. The aberrant behavior is yours not the homosexual.
To deny Evangelicals are not homophobic is laughable. I know better. Not an opinion, just the fact of the matter.
You mad?
This is what Hambone had to say on Facebook:
I normally don’t like to link to secular blogs–but I thought it was worth you reading this one for a number of reasons:
1. To remind us of the spiritual battle we are in
2. To instruct us on how the secularists think
3. To see this person
admit from his perspective that morality is subjective and he makes
moral judgements against Christians most of the way through the article
4 To see how secularists quote the Bible out of context and
misunderstand Christianity (obviously deliberately so because of their
bias against Christianity) .
5. To see how secularists misrepresent Christianity
I really don’t need to say anymore–it will be so obvious when you read this (if you decide to).
Obviously we need to pray for them–but we are certainly in a battle–which is why Paul uses military image in various of his writings in Scripture.
Here’s the link for his Facebook page but don’t try to comment. Ham deletes ALL comments that disagree with him and blocks you from adding any more comments. https://www.facebook.com/aigkenham
Bruce,
Thank you for that insightful piece. I want to tell you how much you inspire me, and how your logic, reason, and passion help me be brave. When I was at the Baptist High School, we were warned against the evils of “secular humanism”. When I asked what it was, all they told me were things that seemed perfectly reasonable to me, and I told them so. Yeah, that went over well (rolls eyes). After all, reason is a good thing, and thinking out a problem is smart, but NO! I was “leaning… on my own understanding” and therefore disobeying God… by THINKING! One cannot take the Bible literally and also be a thinker.
After decades of trying to live for Jesus and think, I realize that I cannot do both. I must be reasonable. I AM reasonable. I am NOT a person who will put my reason aside for someone (or something) else, no matter how hard someone tries to bully me. After all, that is what the demands of the gospel are, a big bullying diatribe and I will have none of it.
Ken Ham is getting rich off the bigoted gullible. YOU, my friend, make life richer for so many. Thanks for this, and for your blog. I am sharing this and then going over to see Ham’s page… so glad he’s included you today! ha ha!
Bruce: your ego and name-calling make it very difficult to follow your logic. I am a person of reason as you say, and I must speak the truth: y’all ‘secular humanists’ as you call yourself, never succeed in explaining things logically. Ken Ham talks about you without insulting or calling names. Having a difference of opinion is different from acting like a child! I have an open mind, but I must say the more people I talk to, and the more I learn, the more Christ is proven and His Truth speaks. Especially through blog posts such as this! If what you say is true, and there is no God, then why can’t y’all out debate the Christians when it comes to logic and reason?? ( I say this from my lifetime experience, not from this blog )
How did the seashells get on top of the mountains? They’re on the tops of all of them…
Why has weathering and erosion not taken the mountains back down again, if they have been here for billions of years? We can watch these processes erode rocks in our yard in our very lifetime!! In fact at such slow pace, how could mountains ever have formed?
How did all the mammoths and other huge animals get insta-frozen in the siberian? It would have taken an insta-freeze to like -150F below to freeze their stomachs without digestion occuring; plus those are not arctic plants they find in their stomachs, they’re warm-loving plants.
Why are most craters on the CLOSE side of the moon?
I hyper-analyze all this and much more on a constant basis. I hope all people who call themselves scientists would do the same in earnest. If you care to explain your viewpoint on some of those questions, I would love to hear you opinion.
At the end of the day, I like to talk about tangible things instead of God vs. no God. Cause at the end of the day, each person makes their own decisions, and chooses their own path. And of course, by design, no one will ever ‘prove’ or ‘disprove’ God. However, we must all address the truth of reality with at least our unconscious minds if not (hopefully) our conscious. If you unconsciously filter out any desire to understand where these things come from, of course your point of view will never change. Well, those mammoths obviously wandered into a gorge and got stuck and frozen. Really? Hundreds of them? Where did they find the tropical plants? And if they love cold so much why did the inside of their stomach freeze within 8 hours of them dying?
A foundation and worldview on the Bible makes everything else line up into place. You can not mock my EXPERIENCE and expect to communicate. You do not have to have blind faith. Truly, blind faith is faith in uniformitarianism; failing to account for the catastrophic events in earths history.
Of course it goes without saying that most Christians are just like most secular humanists: ignorant selfish brats who would rather bolster their own ego rather than exchange relevant information with other human beings. We are great at memorizing information and regurgitating it. People who are too egocentric to really ‘believe’ anything outside themselves, and they are all just as screwed as the other. And trust me I am by no means humble but I do make a conscious effort to try. Very few people are not total hypocrites; we should be able to assimilate experience into our worldview and communicate in these regards without pushing people away. But that’s all anyone ever learned to do, so who am I to expect something different from them? These are more evidence of societies de-evolution from a Biblical Worldview, just as you have pointed out. As such, and in line with every single exchange on this BS interweb of WASTE OF TIME I have ever had, I really am just expecting you to insult me and write me off just as other inquiries into your way of thought have been processed.
If you can exchange in logic and reason without insulting and name calling I would love to discuss matters of importance with you to understand how you assimilate moral right and wrong into your worldview without having a law or definition of ‘good’. Without God, an absolute RIGHT, how can you have Wrong, Good or Bad? This question is really of absolute vs. relative morals. If you don’t believe in God, that’s your free will. But I would truly love to know where your ‘good’ and ‘bad’ comes from, if not from something above? I’m guessing society as a whole collective becomes the moral authority? Hopefully you can see I desire to understand and communicate, and not simply banter and exchange insults. Anyway talk to you later dude.
Ego and name calling? Really?
I don’t debate. Is there anything I could say that would cause you to leave Christianity and reject Jesus and the Bible? Of course not. So…I don’t cast my pearls before swine. My target audience with this blog is people who are considering leaving Christianity or who have already left. I have no time for tit for tat arguments with Christians. Sorry if that disappoints you.
Now if you have a few direct questions you would like me to answer I would be glad to do so. I am not a scientist so questions on science matters are outside my expertise. Questions about my view of God, the Bible, my worldview are welcome.
As to who decides what is good or bad…we do. Many things influence our understanding of good and bad but at the end of the day we are the final authority. BTW, Christians are no different. I have yet to meet a Christian who keeps all the moral and ethical
precepts of the Bible. Ken Ham doesn’t. Ken Ham posted my post to his Facebook page in clear violation of the Bible commands on how heretics are to be handled. Ken decided what was good and acted accordingly.
So, leave off the bullshit….if you have questions, ask. If not…thanks for commenting.
hey Bruce, just like you say, I calls them like I sees them. Don’t feel singled out though, I use that term ‘ego’ a lot. Name calling for sure… but this is all neither here nor there and really not why either one of us is here.
I wish I could say with such certainty that I were a Christian. I must ask, after speaking of so many ‘Jesus”, what do you even mean when you say ‘Christian?’ What makes one ‘Christian’ anyway? Mentioning the words ‘Jesus’ or ‘Bible’? If I’ve got the entire Bible memorized am I a Christian? Don’t think I’m mocking you, I struggle with this daily. Because I am not satisfied with ‘you just die when you die, nothing happens’, cause that’s my first question I guess. What happens when you die?
(in your worldview, not in science)
The problem with most people (myself included,at times) is that they have BIG opinions with small understanding. I respect Mr. Ham, as you have called, derogatorily, “hambone”, to somehow lift yourself up as “the authority” on God. Mr. Ham rightly points out the entire depravity of man, “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”. All of us as Jesus has pointed out, have broken God’s moral law, if not in deed, in thought, “he that looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath commited adultery in his heart”,Matt.5:28. Jesus was and is God, who took on flesh, was tempted in all points like as we are, yet WITHOUT SIN,Heb.4:`15! God the father sent Him to earth to be yours and my “substitute”, for the penalty of our “law-breaking”. In a figure, Jesus stands in God’s courtroom, paying your debt and mine so we can go free. That’s the greatest love that I’ve ever known, and those that believe and receive Christ have their “eyes and understanding opened, by humbling ourselves and believing the Word of God!
Hambone is a term of endearment.
I am no authority on God. I am, however, an expert on Evangelicalism and its understanding of the Bible. That’s what pisses Evangelicals off. They don’t like that I “know” and that I share what I know outside of the club.
I suspect I know Ken pretty well, even without meeting him. I was quite a bit like him for a number of years. I understand his beliefs, how he reads the Bible, what he considers important, etc. I am sure he is a good man who loves his wife and children.
In your little sermonette here…….who ya talking to? You think I haven’t heard this stuff before? Do you you really think by giving me a third grade definition of the Evangelical doctrine of the substitutionary death of Christ that I am somehow going to repent? You do realize this is but ONE theory of the atonement?
Regarding the greatest love you have ever known. Keep telling yourself that Jesus’s love is the greatest love you will ever know and you will wake up one day alone. The greatest love you will ever know is the love of your parents, a spouse, children, and a close friend. These are the people who will REALLY stick by your side when trouble comes. Jesus won’t be there when you are dying but those who REALLY love you will.
The saddest thing about this is the hate of someone who loves everyone, and is fighting for YOU Bruce. Ken fights for everyone and is determined to bring awareness and salvation to each person. Haven’t you noticed Bruce that things not just in this country, but worldwide are changing so much for the worse every day and the one thing in common is leaving what God has tried so hard to teach us, and adhering to ”
They put their faith in a book that has not had an entry written in it for over 1900 years. The world has changed dramatically since Jesus walked the shores of Galilee. ” A man (and only a man) is merely fighting for what he believes is right, trying to stop what he believes is wrong, and you are so very threatened by him. Every time you write something like this, it only brings more credibility to Ken and his presentation of God’s Message. This is an act of love that Ken displays, not hate. When you try to impose man’s rules over God’s Word, it never works. There is not one time in history it has ever resulted in anything but disaster, specifically one man hurting another. Keep on keeping up with him though Bruce, because it is obviously starting to take hold. God has gotten your attention, whether you like it or not!
Yes, the world is a bad, bad,bad place. But, the world is also a good, good, good place. And the world is a place where bad and good are not easily discerned and understood.
God hasn’t gotten my attention. I have gotten Ken’s attention. He is the one who posted what I wrote to his Facebook page.
I don’t hate Ken. I have never said that, so you are bearing false witness. Surely, at this point, I can claim like most Christians do, I love the creationist but hate the creationism.
I was just wondering when you were a preatcher did you love, or even truly belive in God or were you just doing it for a job? nothing personal just curious
Preacher sorry for the miss spelling
I loved God, Jesus, other Christians and sacrificially served others. I believed in The Christian God and I believed the Bible to be the Word of God. I was, in every sense, a sold out, on fire, committed follower of Jesus.
It never was about the money. I never pastored a church that paid me a true living wage, with the benefits people usually have in secular jobs. When I worked outside the church I made substantially more money.
if you dont mind me asking what was the reason you left you faith in Christ then?
The Bible is the foundation of the Christian religion. To be a Christian a person must believe, to some degree or another, that what the Bible reveals is truth. My rejection of Christianity stems from the belief that I do not believe the Bible is truth. While I do think a man named Jesus existed, I do not think that he was god, a miracle worker, virgin born, walked on water, rose from the dead, or ascended back to heaven. He was a man, perhaps a good man, but he died…end of story. I m of the opinion that Western Christianity is not the religion of Jesus but rather the religion of Paul.
Just in case you are tempted to say…but millions of people believe in Jesus…how can it all possibly be a lie or a fantasy? Two Words, Mormon Church. Millions believe…yet most Chrsitians think Mormonism is a lie, a fantasy. I apply the same standard of judgment to all religions.
Now that does not mean I don’t think religion has value. It does, for billions of people. I view religion from an economic viewpoint. For most people the benefits of religion outweigh the costs. I suspect though that if fear and promise of heaven were removed from the equation most religions would lose a lot of members, especially the Christian religion.
you said that you used to belive the Bible as the Word of God, What made you change you mind about the reliablity of The Bible?, and if in your view point Western Christianity is a religon of Paul, are you then saying the Western Chrisitans do not try to follow Jesus Teachings, but rather pauls.
The internal contradictions, the historical inaccuracy, and the total fabrication of many of the stories in the Bible. Bart Ehrman’s books are helpful on these matters.
And yes, for the most part, Western Christians are followers of Paul first and Jesus second. Jesus is interpreted in light of Paul. The Christianity of Jesus, Paul, and even James are very different from one another.
with The evidence you have shown me I would have to call into question that you ever had a personal Relationship with Jesus Christ in a personal way, and never have felt the Holy spirt in your life, because of these two sayings of Jesus-
John 10:14 says -”I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep and they know me,
John 14:20-In that day you will know that I am in my Father, you are in Me, and I am in you.
If you truly Were in Christ The Spirt of Christ would live in you guiding you. but according to what you have sad it is impossoble that you were truly saved because if Gods spirt lived in you, then you would not turn you back on God, neithter he you For God cannot Deny is himself nor is own spirt.
Let me see here..I was patient and polite and answered your questions and you come back with this judgmental bullshit that demeans and diminishes what I did with my life for probably more years than you have been alive?
I hope you said everything you felt “led” to say because I am certainly being led to delete any further comments by you.
Count me as one Christian who often finds the writing of Paul quite annoying. To me he is arrogant.
Dead tree, might this be a matter of perspective? Wasn’t it Cornelius, a gentile, that the Scripture states was a righteous man, although not a Christian believer?
I think that humanly speaking many secular people are good, and express positive values. But, in terms of God’s righteousness, and expressing the perfect love of Christ, it seems to me that we all fall very short. In this context, there is no one good but God..
Also, I think Scripture presents paradox. We are fallen and broken, yet blessed and created in the image and likeness of God, a mix of sinner and saint.
Sorry Lorena.
Rebecca.
Sorry for what, Rebecca? That you somehow refuted Lorena’s statement? If so, how? You don’t even address what she said (if dead tree reader is the same as “Lorena” – I’m confused by that). I mean, what does Cornelius have to do with whether or not Paul was arrogant?
“But, in terms of God’s righteousness, and expressing the perfect love of Christ, it seems to me that we all fall very short. In this context, there is no one good but God.”
But this is not what Hammy was on about at all. He doesn’t grant non-believers *any* goodness at all. And who ever said, believer or not, that humans were perfect? *You* say that at least God is perfect, but where is your proof? The Bible? Who says the Bible is true? The Bible? You can see how it just kind of goes around in a circle. Those of us who prefer evidence to blind faith simply ain’t gettin’ on that train — it makes us dizzy.
As for the Christian scriptures presenting a paradox — amen, sister. To much (and too many!) for me to give them any more credence than I would any other text written by a patriarchal, tribal, bronze-age culture.
Hi, Scary,
Dead Tree and Lorena are different people. Lorena commented awhile back in a different post about how the concept that we could be sinners, yet not.. which I would consider paradox made her ill. You have to know Lorena to appreciate this comment. She is unique. I was teasing her, if she read this post, not trying to be mean.
I believe that Dead Tree is a Christian, so I was attempting to open up a dialogue and explore the idea with him/her that these terms ” good” and “righteous” are used in differing ways in the Scripture, and we have to look at the context.
I don’t know this Hambone, Scary. If he thinks that in a human sense no one but a Christian can do good things, or make a positive difference in the world, he is certainly blind, IMO. Just look around.
Does this help, or am I still missing the point?
Rebecca.
There is none righteous no not one. There is none that doeth good.
I can’t wait to see an exegetical, theological, in context, defense for these verses meaning anything other than exactly what they say.
Ham’s exegesis is correct and that is why we should reject the Bible. Reason and experience tell us that people are good and do good things. So the Bible and it’s wrong view of humanity is the problem.
Bruce, here is my conundrum. In other places, the Scripture names scores of folks who were considered “righteous.” Here are just a few examples of what I mean.
This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. (Gen 6:9)
Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. (Mat 1:19)
Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. (Luke 2:25)
And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. (Mat 23:35)
and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard) (2 Pet 2:7,8)
Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? (James 2:21)
So, what on earth was Paul talking about when he states “that none are righteous?” I’ve naturally concluded that this is either a contradiction in the Scripture, or it seems most likely to me that the various Biblical writers are using these terms such as “good” and “righteous” in differing ways.
I think that Paul is really trying to get across the idea that no one can be put right with God by following the works of the law, and that compared to God’s perfect and holy righteousness, by comparison our righteousness is as filthy rags. As I’ve shared even the most generous and moral person on earth falls far short of the perfect love and goodness of God expressed in Christ.
But, I certainly would not interpret these verses to me as does Mr. Ham that from a human perspective no one on earth can do good things, and that everyone is as evil as possible. This doesn’t seem to square with the whole teaching of the Scripture either, IMO.
But, you know Bruce, as I’m prone to say, Christians do disagree about this. I could be wrong.
How would you square these verses of Scripture that I’ve shared with the teaching of Paul in Romans? What are your thoughts?
Rebecca,
Sorry about the confusion between Dead Tree Reader and Lorena — I’d read the rest of the comments many days ago and didn’t remember Lorena by name. ^_^
I think I understand what you’re saying about “goodness” and “righteousness,” though I don’t know why you think such a distinction exists and what it has to do with Hammy’s dismissal of a non-believer’s capacity for good. Is “righteousness” simply perfection in goodness or is it something else?
Yes, everything, everywhere, in every time, should be taken in context. Which is why a lot of us no longer see the Bible as particularly meaningful in our lives.
Peace,
Kat
Hi, Kat, if you check out my question to Bruce, I’ve explained my conundrum in greater detail. Please share your thoughts as well.
Also, I think this does touch on a controversy in church history relating to our capacity to chose God, or to do good. Not all agree.