Dr. Bob Gray, retired pastor of Longview Baptist Temple, Longview, Texas travels across America winning souls for Jesus. Every week he reports on his website his exploits for Jesus. Gray is the Über-Soul Winner of the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) Church movement. He is a consummate bean counter. I have no doubt he knows exactly how many souls he has won to Christ over his 40 years in the ministry.
Last Sunday, Gray was in Florida for two days to help Dr. Ken Pledger, pastor of Calvary Baptist Church, Middleburg, Florida, celebrate his 26th anniversary pastoring the church. Pledger, I believe, attended Midwestern Baptist College in Pontiac, Michigan, the same IFB school I attended in the 1970’s.
Dr. (1) Gray preached at Calvary Baptist Church and of course while he was in the area he worked his soul winning magic. Gray tells an interesting and revealing story about going out to eat with Dr. Russell Anderson, (2) the Anderson in the college named Hyles Anderson.
Dr. Pledger, Dr. Anderson, and myself went to a Cracker Barrel to eat supper that Saturday night. Dr. Anderson started joking with the waiter who was 19 or 20. He told the young man that he carried his priest with him where ever he went so he could get his sins forgiven the minute he sinned. I was wearing a black pull over and Dr. Anderson pointed to me and said here is my priest. He told the young man, “By the way we are having a two for one sale on forgiveness of sins and you need to take advantage of this offer tonight!” The waiter took our order and went on his way.
He returned with our food and before he walked away he looked at me and said, “Please don’t forget to remind me of that offer to get my sins forgiven.” I said, “Ok!” He left and we ate. He came back and said it again. We thought he was going along with the joking. He returned to clear off the table and asked me again to not forget. I told him to clear the table and then I would show him how to have all of his sins forgiven.
In a few minutes he came back and I showed him Scriptures on how to have all of his sins whether past, present, or future completely paid for. He bowed his head and trusted Christ to pay for his sins. This young man was dead serious with something that started out as joking around.
Gray reports that 103 people were saved and 31 people were baptized while he was there.
Here is what I know. Of the 103 that were “saved” IFB style, most of them will not be in church a month or year from now. The reason is simple. Men like Gray, Russell Anderson, and Ken Pledger, and Bruce Gerencser (3) when he was an IFB pastor, reduce salvation to a sales pitch to be bought or rejected. It is a complete prostitution and corruption of what the Christian NT teaches about salvation.
Notes:
1. Did you notice that Gray, Russell, and Pledger are all doctors? Except that they aren’t. IFB colleges love to crown their superstars with honorary doctorates. Almost all IFB pastors that have Dr. in front of their name have an honorary doctorate or a doctorate “earned” from a diploma mill. And believe me, most of them expect to be called Dr.
2. Russell Anderson came to Trinity Baptist Church in Findlay, Ohio to preach in the early 1970’s when I was a teenager. I was sitting in the far back of the auditorium while Anderson was preaching. I was doing what teens typically do in church….goofing around with my friends. Anderson noticed my inattentiveness and called me out publicly. He then instructed one of the deacons (Mr. Ashcroft I believe) to come sit with me. “One of you deacons go sit with Red there so he will behave!” Guess how many “Reds” there where in the church? You got it. Me. Boy was I embarrassed and my friends never let me hear the end of it.
3. I believed and practiced IFB soteriology (doctrine of salvation) until 1988. I came to see that IFB soteriology, the soteriology of Jack Hyles, Tom Malone, the Sword of the Lord to name a few, was a corruption of what the Bible taught about salvation. After my break with the IFB, I was labeled a preacher of works salvation or Lordship salvation. Dr. Curtis Hutson, then Editor of the Sword of the Lord, told me I was preaching a works gospel, a false gospel. He and I had tangled over his secret rewriting of a salvation tract written by Dr. John R. Rice. Rice. In rewriting Rice’s tract, What Must I do to be Saved?, Hutson totally changed what Rice believed about the doctrine of repentance.
Well, what does works salvation and Lordship salvation mean?
Lordship salvation,espoused by men like John MacArthur, says that it is not enough for Jesus to be your Savior, he must also be your Lord. At the heart of the debate is whether repentance is just a change of mind or if it is a change of mind that results in a change of life, conduct. I believed the latter.
1. How did Dr. Anderson make all his money? What business was he in?
2. How did Dr. Curtis Hutson change Dr. Rices tract? Do you have a copy of the original? If you do, that would be quite an expose.
3. Did you have an issue with easy believism, or quick prayerism?
http://www.wayoflife.org/database/ifbquickprayerism.html
I don’t know how Anderson made his money. Here is an interesting link to a letter Anderson wrote to Jack Hyles. http://www.hacalumni.com/pdfs/DrAnderson.pdf
I no longer have the original tract. I wish I did. The change? Rice believed repentance was a turning from sin which resulted in a change of life. Hutson believed repentance was a change of mind, which SHOULD result in a change of life but if not the person was still saved.
Yes, I had a huge problem with easy believism, quick prayerism, decisional regeneration. I also had a big problem with altar calls. I stopped giving altar calls, for the most part, around 1991.
Bruce, I spent some time on this fascinating blog,
http://andrewhimes.net/
He is the grandson of Dr John R Rice, a black sheep.
He claims that when Dr Rice preached his last sermon he instructed the hand out a Gaither song sheet that he brought, with a Gaither song about unity at the Sword of the Lord Conference. He wanted it sung after his sermon. Apparently Dr, Curtis Hutson disapproved and had them all thrown out. This had upset Dr Rice to the state of tears.
I do enjoy your site. Please forgive me for commenting when I have not read your entire blog. Is Dr. Rice really to be commended? The Sword of the Lord was against Christians of different races marrying by force of law not just it being wrong. Dr. Rice was against the civil rights act. Many of his commentaries border on having racial slurs. The Japanese were repeatedly called Japs in the magazine. Maybe he was right about repentance? Who knows. A read of his commentaries will also point to salvation by believing only. Also he felt a person could be morally degenerate and still saved. Dr. Rice cannot be neatly put into the Lordship Salvation corner nor the easy believism. I don’t really care anymore. I just feel he didn’t make society better for African americans. Has the sword ever apologized for their past views on race relations?
Jeff
Hey Jeff,
I don’t think I ever said Rice was a proponent of Lordship salvation. He did hold to a view of repentance that people like Jack Hyles, Curtis Hutson, and many of the currently Sword of the Lord crowd roundly consider “works” salvation.
As far as the SOL and Rice on race. Yes, they were racists, as were many Baptists of their day. You must remember many of the people who initially formed the IFB church movement were former Southern Baptists, a denomination where racism runs deep to this day. Not excusing it…just trying to understand it in its historical context.
Awesome!!! I forgot you wrangled with Hutson before. What were
the changes he made to Rice’s tract?
But yeah, Gray is definitely the King of Bean Counting.
Rice believed repentance was a turning from sin which resulted in a change of life. Hutson believed repentance was a change of mind, which SHOULD result in a change of life but if not the person was still saved.
bruce,
what happened in 1988? could you please tell us more? why were you making these big changes in your beliefs?
I came to see that repentance was a turning from sin that resulted in a change in conduct. Over time I embraced a Calvinistic soteriology and the IFB movement is as anti-Calvinist as a group can be.
The comment about salvation as a sales pitch was revealing. I’ve gotten the same high-pressure-sales-pitch feeling from other Christian proselytizers. It’s definitely not condusive to a long-term, thoughtful spiritual life.
My “pithy” comment is that I would rather have one Anderson or Gray out there keeping people out of hell, than a hundred people on-line verbally degrading them for what they are doing. Some of those people won’t have changed lives, but some of them will; and regardless ALL of them will have escaped the fires of hell and have an eternity to spend praising God in heaven.
Here is a problem that I see in this, brother. I have no doubt that these pastors mean the very best, and God is able to use everything in our lives. But, yet, because of this approach toward evangelical outreach, how many also may be turned off to the Christian gospel, and not give the Lordship of Christ serious consideration?
Also, is a high pressured sales pitch like method really condusive to a long-term, thoughtful spiritual life, as Ahab and Bruce have raised. Didn’t Jesus also speak of “counting the cost.?”
As I had mentioned on another post, it seems that many de converts from Christianity come from these type of religious backgrounds. Perhaps this is not a random correlation, but something that needs to be seriously considered.
It seems to me that it is possible to raise these concerns together without being disrespectful or degrading. I certainly mean no personal disrespect to either of these men. Despite our differences which I’m sure are many, they are my brothers in Christ.
Deconversions come from all religious backgrounds. They “seem” to be more from Evangelical Churches because Evangelicalism is the face of American Christianity and is large in number. People from liberal, mainline churches are less likely to deconvert because they aren’t required to believe anything or do anything to remain in the church. Plenty of atheist/agnostic Episcopalians who have no need to “come out” so they don’t.
Well, I can see what you’re saying.
Perhaps there is some truth in both of our observations. I definitely know of folks who are not Christian believers who attend the Episcopal church for various reasons.
But, I can’t picture any of them arguing with passionate conviction over at “Debunking Christianity.”
Now I think I had better get off these blogs, and attack my weedy backyard.
Pax.
Salvation, Bob Gray and Steve Anderson style. Your life may or may not change but regardless you are guaranteed a seat in heaven. I kinda like this because, according to this way of thinking, I am still a Christian. Woo Hoo. Talk about having my cake and eating it to.
Enjoyed this post Bruce. It reminded me of my own background and experiences in the IFB subculture.
In my early 20′s I had gone from IFB and had became involved in the charismatic (“tongues”) movement, I would still attend Highland Park Baptist’s Sunday evening services just so I could hear Lee Robeson’s amazing preaching and attended a number of the Missionary/Bible conferences they put on in my home town of Chattanooga, Tennessee. And like most folks in the charismatic movement, though speaking in tongues was a devotional and worship practice that seemed pretty psychotic to outsiders, we were still mainly about “soul-winning”.
I think one year Jack Hyles was billed as “Mr. Soul-Winner” at a week long revival they had at Highland Park. In the advertising for the event, it was claimed he had led 600 people a year to a born-again experience just by one-on-one evangelism. I was a little skeptical of the claim even back then because I found in witnessing that people who were interested in their eternal salvation often had serious questions they wanted answered and it would take more than some ten minute, Wham-Bam-Thank-You-Ma’am, Roman’s Road presentation to cover everything. More commonly, I found that it would take several sessions trying to reason with the person about praying the sinner’s prayer for salvation. What we now know of “Brother Jack” was that it was more than likely all fake numbers and part of the mythos that he was always spinning about himself and his ministry at FBC, Hammond, Indiana.
With the pushy, sales model that was the norm for IFB preachers, I have no doubt that many people prayed the sinner’s prayer just because they were being nice, civil and respected in general anyone who was a minister. And they saw no harm in praying with a minister to God for all sins to be forgiven. After the prayer, and the door is shut, they made a mental note to never attend the church they represented. Kind of like buying a brush you don’t really want or need from a pushy door-to-door salesman just because you don’t want to offend the person and you want to get them off your doorstep.
Bruce,
Isn’t there a problem with the Lordship Salvation model also? Many people feel it is impossible to become Christians because they would have to sell everything they own,become a missionary etc and the concept of the “free gift” is lost. Most IFB people I know in the lay community pretty much have jesus lord of their life. They actually go door to door and witness unlike most, but not all calvinist and evangelicals. There is also a problems with Lordship Salvation with some people because they always fear that they haven’t truly made Jesus Lord of their life. There is problems with the easy believism also but that is usually converts who said a prayer at a door and never went to church. it doesn’t matter to me now that I am secular and am happy just to have this temporary life but there are two sides to the argument. Love your blog Bruce.
Jeff
Jeff,
Yes, the Lordship salvation soteriology has its own problems, especially the one you mention.
Bottom line for me is this..if you are going to say you are a Christian then you should be serious about it. If not, admit you are a cultural Christian.
Funny story for you. In my Calvinistic, Lordship Salvation days…before we took communion one time I told the church that unless they were willing to confess and forsake all sin they should not take communion. No one took communion.
I was shocked and embarrassed but it did force me to think about the matter and I changed my belief on the matter.
Most Lordship salvation adherents are Calvinists. For all their talk of grace there is a lot of “works” involved and, personally I think they preach a works salvation gospel.
That said, I think the best way a person shows their beliefs is by what they do and not by what they say.
Bruce
Bruce,
Your points are well taken. I don’t personally respect people’s faith when it is an add on and they live completely against their faith.So you are correct on that point in my experiences.
In someways it is a debate over the” left over” people who quit church or never go or quit very soon after a “salvation” experience, Hard to say which group has more of these people. i would vote with the ifb because they go door to door more frequently than the Calvinist. I think the personal conduct of the hardcore members is probably pretty similar though. They both love Christ and try their best to serve him.
John R Rice really can’t be put completely in either category. He did preach repentance from sin, but said the man who believes repents. That God gives the turning from sin. He also had a sermon track Good Man Lost, Bad Man Saved which John MacArthur would completely reject. However, Rice did believe that no truly saved person could enjoy sin like a sheep wouldn’t roll in the mud like a pig but would fall in sometimes.
My old church friends do not really initiate contact with me anymore. They are always nice when we run into each other, but it hurts them so much that I left. I really miss them, but it has been two years now and I have never been happier.
Love your site Bruce,
Jef
So how would you describe yourself? Would you say you were a christian but you’re not any more, or would you say you were never truly a christian?
Rob,
Whether or not I was a true Christian would depend upon which theology was correct. Lordship Salvation would state that I was not because I did not persevere. Arminian theology would state that I lost my salvation. Once saved always saved my faith was shipwrecked but I am still saved. I am not against Christianity and am happy about my years of service in the faith. Hope your Easter Weekend is awesome.
JD
JD,
Thanks for the reply. May I ask what turned you away from the faith. I’m not being nosy, the reason I’m asking is because I’m trying to sort my own beliefs out.
Thanks, and I hope your weekend is great as well.
-Rob
Rob,
About ten years ago I started disillusioned with the orthodoxy wars. Not the fundamentals of the faith but side doctrines. For example, both of John MacArthur and Curtis Hutson basically claimed the other side of the lordship salvation issue were heretics(really close to a damnable one) There were statements made that five point calvinist were lost. Those who said that the blood of Christ saving power was in reference to his death were heretics. Those who denied(not just did not know) that Christ blood was in Heaven were heretics. Those who believed the KGB translation had small errors were heretics. I thought a person could spend their entire life on the wrong side of one these issues and go to hell. I did start to gravitate towards five point calvinism and held the view that good christian men just disagreed on these issues around seven years ago.
Around 3 and a half years ago I was very angered listening to Richard Dawkins talk about how he wants to have his death recorded so dishonest christians cannot falsely claim he had a conversion. How can someone not believe in God I thought? I was mad. a few weeks later my dad one of those bible shows on the history channel talking about why Jesus used the term greater than solomon is here instead of David and were using texts outside of the kjb. I started to think did the church fathers believe in baptismal regeneration and the Eucharist being the actual blood and body of Christ and not a symbol.? My studies showed that they believe in these doctrines. I was a member of an IFB church not a catholic church. I started watching videos on youtube. I found the God who wasn’t there featuring Dawkins,Harris and Dr. robert Price. Did Jesus even exist? I asked for the first time in my life. I was shocked at how scant the evidence for his existence really was. I spent six months in the closet with my new unbelief and then slowly started sharing with people about it. I resigned from my church which was a group of wonderful people. I feel bad that people are hurt by my decision, but I am much happier. I do still love Jack Hyles even though all of what Bruce says about him is true. He does have a mesmerizing appeal.
Take care,
JD