I had a Twitter discussion over the past few days with a Calvinistic Christian named Michael Morth. He has a blog titled Biblical Orthodoxy. Michael responded to Former Christian Atheist’s guest post My Life. The Vyckie in the discussion is my friend Vyckie Garrison (she has a large Twitter following) who tweets all of my posts. Vyckie blogs at No Longer Qivering.
Michael: 1. There are no former Christians Jn 6:37-40, 1 Jn 2:19 2. Christianity is not assent, but repentance and faith!
Bruce: Nice try Michael. Keep telling yourself this as the number of former Christians who repented and had faith grows.
Bruce: Do you really think Vyckie or I spent our whole adults lives “assenting” and not faithfully living?
Michael: Well, I don’t know either of you, but I do believe God’s word. I think some people are false converts and fall away because they didn’t trust wholeheartedly. Trust and faith requires abiding and staying; many threats.
Bruce: So you believe what a book says rather than what you can see and what a person knows about themselves?
Michael: Faith is a gift of God and a drawing to Christ. The gifts and callings of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29)
Michael: I don’t believe that the elect, after being born-again from above , will be able to turn away; God preserves.
Bruce: I don’t care what you believe. How we lived our lives tell the story. If we weren’t Christians no one is.
Bruce: Besides, millions of Arminian Christians disagree with your Calvinism. How do you know you are right?
Michael: I’ve been on both sides of the fence, but ultimately was convinced by the overwhelming testimony of Scripture.
Bruce: This is what they all say. Arminianism, Calvinism. Amyraldianism. All taught in the Bible. All with overwhelming evidence.
Michael: The Word of God is a better judge of humanity than our own finite understanding and experiences. We change often
Michael: then, what made you stop trusting? I’m a believer because God caused me to be born-again; didn’t start with me.
Bruce: who knows better what happened in my life? You or the person who lived it? I know I was a Christian and now I am not.
Bruce: Again, you can’t know for sure. Unless you persevere to the end you weren’t saved. You might yet fall away.
Bruce: and if you fall away how do you think you would respond to people who said you were never really saved?
Michael: The scriptures say that God “gave” people to Christ and Christ won’t/cant lose any. Also see Romans 8:28-30
Bruce: I am well aware of what you think the Bible says. Been there done that. I know Calvinism inside and out.
Michael: Again, I must ask what caused you to disbelieve? Cleverly crafted arguments? Scientific theory? Sinful desire?
Bruce: if Calvinism is correct, it was God who was the agent of my unbelief. God is in control of everything, yes?
Bruce: I stopped believing because I came to see that the Bible wasn’t truth, it wasn’t inerrant, inspired,infallible.
Michael: What led to those conclusions? Cleverly devised arguments?
Bruce: You really want to frame my answer according to your own conclusions with your use of the word clever.
Bruce: Facts and evidence born out of Intellectual pursuit led to my conclusions about the bible and its central message and teachings
Michael: What fact and evidence?
Bruce: Read Bart Ehrman. His books succinctly address the text issues and many Internal contradictions. Inerrancy can not be sustained
Michael: “See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit… of the world, and not according to Christ. Col 2:8
Bruce: Whatever
Michael: Did you read anything by biblical scholars that hold to inerrancy/infallibility?
Bruce: You might what to check out who you are talking with? I pastored Evangelical churches for 25 years. So yes, I have read the books.
Michael: Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend.
Bruce: No offense. However, quoting Bible verses that I already know and used to expositionally preach from has no effect.
Michael: So, no belief in God at all? Did you check out any other religious traditions?
Bruce: I am an atheist, so no God at all. Yes, I have checked out all the “other” gods and none of them ring true.
Michael: Do you think that you were living in a protracted delusion all those years? How long since you left?
Bruce: No, I was a Christian, plain and is simple. 8 years since I pastored, 4 years since attending church.
Good job, Bruce. Someone like yourself, who left the faith, is a valuable reference. And I like the way you didn’t let him get away with goofy Christian statements like What made you leave, clever arguments.” The sly ole devil and his “clever arguments”. No, just figured out that the Bible is the inerrant word of god using my brain.
meant to say the Bible ISN”T the inerrant word of god using my brain
Well said Bruce. I am glad you did not let him get away with framing your answers before you gave them.
“So you believe what a book says rather than what you can see and what a person knows about themselves?”
It is a sad truth. One of the things that bothers me most about Christianity is that at it’s core, it causes people to betray their fellow human beings, and instead, listen to a bunch of archaic bull shit. They have to frame everything to their conclusions ahead of time, and all probably out of fear of death.
“Religion is the only drug that requires everyone else to shoot up to maintain the high.”
Bruce, you have the patience of a saint… oh wait.
Like you, I was a Calvinist for many of my christian years. I tried to put myself in Michael’s shoes and see if I could make sense of it. My take on this:
Michael is braver than most, he’s encountering something totally outside his frame of reference so all he can do it attempt to keep your experience inside his frame. It has to be very scary for him to encounter someone who had all the signs (and then some!) of being a christian and has valid, rational reasons for why he left the sheepfold. He dare not actually investigate this, all his internal belief mechanisms are telling him your experience can’t be true and he needs to refute or run. At the moment he is using magical phrases from his holy book (‘clever arguments’ is one of those.) He’s still locked into that belief system that has him in fear of hell. Only if his need for truth outweighs his fear will he be able to get free of this delusion.
What bothers me most about the conversation you had with Michael is that I would bet he believes that you have fallen into a life of ‘sin’. I am so sick of normal human behavior being portrayed as sinful.
It’s interesting how Christians continue to quote bible verses to people who’ve left the faith. When I was a Christian, I guess I believed in the supernatural power of the verses, that I could do no wrong in quoting them since they were the power of God unto salvation and God’s word does not return void. Plus, I’d spent a lot of time and effort reading the bible and I guess it felt good to show what I’d learned.
Being a nonbeliever however I now find it insulting to have the bible quoted to me; its as though the Christian is trying to cast an incantation upon me rather than actually communicating. I was guilty of this line of thinking myself as a Christian.
One of the problems with Twitter is that people react to post titles without actually reading the post. This person didn’t go to my blog so he didn’t know who I was. Maybe we would have tried a different approach? Quoting verses AT me irritates me greatly. Like you, I doubt they are going to quote a verse I haven’t heard or read countless times. Our godlessness is not due to lack of Bible knowledge.
Bruce, I loved your “whatever” response to Michael quoting the Bible verses at you. It must be a very scary thing for him to know that you were a former minister, and therefore know at least as much, if not more than he does about the Bible and surrounding literature. You have experience and credibility even though you weren’t a Calvinist, so his only way out is to try the “you never were a real Christian” argument. At least MIchael is trying to think for himself a little. He may not be too far away from “seeing the light”.
Actually, I was a Calvinist for a number of years…so I knew his game plan
No one can play the “well you really don’t understand Calvinism” card with me.
Calvinism is the intellectual’s dream. It is a logical system, with every point dependent on the other points. The Southern Baptists are fighting a battle over Calvinism. Calvinistic Pastors are challenging long-held beliefs about salvation and evangelism. It has been interesting, since I know a lot of the main players, to watch this unfold.
I have thought of Calvinism as the logical approach and Arminianism as the more rational approach to making sense of Christianity. At least an Arminian can fit someone like you into their theological view. The Calvinist has to stretch their belief to the breaking point to fit you in.
“if Calvinism is correct, it was God who was the agent of my unbelief. God is in control of everything, yes?” Love it!
Help required at http://www.christianforums.com/f83/
Defenders of the true faith are in a minority on this calvinist recruiting forum.
Please join up and help out the beleaguered Christians there.
To me, it has just become an exciting, fun challenge. I honed my Calvinist teeth in Free Republic, where there was a time when the Religion Forum was a rollicking, free-for-all, a regular punch-fest.
I learned how to take it, and how to give it. I learned how to insult someone subtly, how to read someone’s pedigree nicely, and how to cut to the heart of a matter. As I said, it was a verbal punch-fest, so these wimps in Soteriology wouldn’t have lasted a day there. I can’t use but maybe 20% of the methods I learned, or I would be perma-banned in less than a day. As it is, I have had action against me by the mods here, some deserved, and some not.
Here’s my pissy…er…pithy comment.
Logically speaking, I find a discrepancy with your statement “if we weren’t Christians nobody is.” Here’s why – if you were a “Christian” then you heard the voice of God (audibly, or more likely, inside your mind) and you spoke to Him, utterly convinced that God heard you. Right?
So now, as someone utterly convinced that there is no “God” you are left with one of two conclusions, as I see it.
1) You need mental help. You’re delusional due to the fact that you heard voices and spoke to imaginary people. (Not meant to be an insult, just a conclusion, I promise!)
2) You didn’t really “hear” from God either audibly or inside of your mind. And therefore Christians who say that they have MIGHT very well be telling the truth. And since this is either something that you either a) you did not truly experience, or b) you need mental help, perhaps you and all other “Christians” experiences are really not the same or even that comparable?
I hope that made sense ‘cuz it did in my head.
God love ya, I get where you are at although I admit that I have never been there. As a believer (cuz I can’t stand the term “Christian” any more) I find you completely valid as a fellow human being whether or not you believe in Jesus, nothing, or Elvis Presley. Your importance and relevance as a person is not tied to what you think from day to day or year to year. And I’m sorry that people behaved that way. They suck.
John,
I think all religious choices are emotionally, mentally, and environmentally conditioned. So, at the time, based on my emotional and mental state, along with the environment I was a part of, God most certainly spoke to me and “lived” in me.
Everything we experience in life must be viewed in context using the beliefs in place at the time.
I now believe there is no god and as such I view anyone who “talks” to God or “talked” to God as I did, as talking to a being that is the creation of their emotions, mental state, and environment. (a complex, contradictory mess)
Bruce
Oh, your comment about Christian music sucking is true to a certain extent. I would qualify that with the term “mainstream.” There have been a LOT of fringe Christian bands and artists that have made killer music. I’m talking about Daniel Amos, The 77′s, The Choir, Mike Knott, etc…