Here are the FACTS about abortion:
Very few abortions occur at full-term. 88% of all abortions occur in the first trimester, with 61.8% occurring in the first nine weeks. 98.5% of abortions take place before viability. Late term abortions, after twenty weeks, are 1.5% of of all abortions (about 12,000 abortions)
Out of 1.2 million annual abortions, 12,000 are after 20 weeks. Most of these abortion are medically necessary due to health concerns of the mother, the fetus, or both.
These FACTS can be found at the Guttmacher Institute.
I realize that almost half of Americans are pro-Life, or at least when polled say they are pro-life. I am not at all convinced that as many people are pro-life as the polls suggest.
I wonder what how pro-lifers would respond to polling questions like this?
- Your eleven year old daughter is raped by a serial rapist and she became pregnant. Would you support your daughter having an abortion?
- Your wife is raped by an AID’s infected man. Her rape was a Todd Akin “legitimate” rape and she became pregnant. Would you support your wife having an abortion?
- Your wife is pregnant with a fetus that tests show will be born without a brain. Would you support your wife having an abortion?
- Your wife is in danger of losing her life if her fetus is carried to term. The doctor says unless an abortion is performed she will die. Would you support your wife having an abortion?
When faced with reality rather than political talking points I wonder how many people would actually stand by their no-exceptions anti-abortion stance?
Of course, many so-called pro-lifers say they support exemptions for rape, incest, and if the life of the mother is at stake. However, these exceptions are antithetical to the pro-life view. If life begins the moment the egg and sperm unite, then any abortion is the killing of a human life. It is inconsistent and hypocritical to call yourself pro-life and then turn right around and say, in some circumstances, it is permissible to kill the fetus.
According to anti-abortionists life begins at conception. At the very moment the sperm and egg unite a new life is created. Anti-abortionists are intractable when it comes to their position. Life begins at conception…end of debate.
Let me tell you a story……
This story takes place at the We Make Life Possible Fertility Clinic.
Sue gave birth to a beautiful baby girl through in vitro fertilization. Her baby girl is 1 month old . Sue stopped by the Fertility Clinic to show off her newborn to the Clinic staff.
While Sue was at the clinic a huge explosion rocked the place and the Clinic was engulfed in flames.
John, a pro-life activist, happened to be passing by the clinic when the explosion took place. John went running into the clinic hoping to perhaps save someone from the fire.
John had been to the We Make Possible Life Fertility Clinicbefore. His wife Mary had problems conceiving and the Clinic was able to help them conceive. Unfortunately, Mary miscarried a few months into the pregnancy.
John knew that the Clinic stores hundreds of fertilized eggs (embryos) in a freezer. As he entered the Clinic is saw Sue and her daughter huddled in a corner trying to get away from the fire. John thought “Surely I should save these two.”
But then John thought for a moment, and he realized that the fire was going to destroy all the frozen embryos. He told Sue and her baby sorryand rushed to the freezer where the frozen embryos were stored.
Through John’s heroic efforts hundreds of frozen embryos were saved,
Sadly, Mary and her newborn daughter died in the blaze.
Who among us would fault John? After all, he acted according to the greater good. Who wouldn’t save 200 lives at the expense of 2 lives.
The above story follows the logic of the life begins at conception viewpoint. There is no difference between 200 embryos and Sue and her baby. Life is life. It makes perfect sense for John to save the frozen embryos rather than Sue and her baby. Surely John would be praised for saving the 200 embryos. If the clinic is unable to reopen perhaps the frozen embryos can be put up for adoption. After all EVERY embryo is a life.
If life begins at conception, and terminating a pregnancy is the murder of a baby as Pro-Life zealots claim, then the following conclusions can be made:
- The woman who has the abortion is a murderer
- The doctor who performs the abortion is a murderer
- The nurse who helps with the abortion is a murderer
- The receptionist who books the abortion appointment is a murderer
If these conclusions are true then it means that none of these people will go to heaven when they die.
The Bible is clear:
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8
It is also clear, at least to me, that people who kill innocent men, women, and children in war are murderers too. Where are the same Pro-Life zealots proclaiming the evil of war?
It seems that killing a zygote is murder but killing an Afghan child or mother is not. It seems that the only life Pro-Lifer’s protect is that which has not yet been born.
I have come to the conclusion that Pro-Lifer’s who do not condemn war are guilty of facilitating murder. Pro-Lifer’s charge those who believe abortion should be rare, safe, and legal with facilitating murder. As Pro-Lifer’s make quite clear, those who promote and facilitate abortion cannot be Christians. How can they be since they are facilitating murder?
I ask the same about Pro-Lifer’s who promote and facilitate war. How can they be Christian and support the murder of innocent men, women, and children? It seems to me that Heaven is going to be quite empty if murderers are barred from entering. In fact, God the grandest murderer of them all, would be banned from Heaven, according to Revelation 21:8.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Revelation 22:14,15
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Matthew 19:17-19
In about 17 months there will be a Presidential election. Republicans know they have a fight on their hands. They need to make sure that the faithful turn out in record numbers and vote for the Republican candidate. They need to appeal to the value voters, those who hold to right-wing political and social beliefs.
One of the key issues that will make it to the ballot in 2012 is whether or not a fertilized egg is a person. Personhood USAis circulating petitions in all 50 states hoping to get politicians to enact personhood laws. According to Rachel Maddow there are already eight states debating personhood legislation and with 2012 being a Presidential election year it is quite likely that there will be a concerted effort to get Personhood initiatives on the ballot.
One of the implications of Personhood laws is that they could make the use of birth control pills illegal. (since birth control pills are an abortifacient and can, and do cause spontaneous abortion) 46 years ago in Griswold v. Connecticut the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the right of privacy extended to the use of contraceptives and states could not ban the sale of contraceptives. (it is hard to believe there was a time where selling birth control was illegal)
Personhood laws could upend not only Roe v. Wade but Griswold v. Connecticut. If a fertilized egg is a person then any deliberate effort to kill the fertilized egg would be considered murder. A quick perusal of The Pill Killswebsite will make it clear that the Personhood crowd is dead alive serious.
What is the implication of a Personhood law?
- All abortion would be illegal, including abortion in the case of rape and incest
- Abortion to save the life of the mother would be outlawed since it is illegal to murder one person to save another
- Using any form of birth control that is an abortifacient would be illegal
- Our entire legal code would need to be rewritten to reflect that a fertilized egg is a person
- A person causing a woman to miscarry would be charged with murder.
- Parents would be able to claim the fertilized egg as a dependent on their income tax return
- Fertilized eggs would be eligible for adoption
- Stem cell research would be curtailed and possibly even banned
I can imagine a new Evangelical evangelism outreach to fertilized eggs. “Winning People to Jesus, One Fertilized Egg at a Time.”
We must not sit on the sidelines while right-wing Christians attempt to push their social agenda down the throat of the American people. We must consistently, and continually point out that Personhood laws are fraught with legal implications that will turn the legal code into a mine field.
Right-wing Christians are not going away. Obama being elected President was a stern rebuke and they have no intentions of sitting idly by and letting liberal, fertilized egg killing Democrats win in 2012. I expect a vicious fight not only on the Federal level but the State and Local level too.
Put the Bible away. Put away all the religious presuppositions about what life is. Look at the graphic below. Is what you see a baby and that by aborting it you are committing murder?
Only those blinded by their religious ideology can conclude that this is a picture of a baby. At best it is potential life but not life itself.
Now let me get personal for a moment.
If you believe people who support a woman’s right to an abortion are murderers or evil people then why do you have anything to do with me? If this is your view then why would you want to be anywhere near a neighbor, friend, husband, father, father-in-law, or grandfather like me who is a m-u-r-d-e-r-e-r? IF I am a murderer, and I support the murder of over a million babies a year, (your word not mine) then aren’t I just as evil as Jeffrey Dahmer or John Wayne Gacy?
Of course I am not and that’s the problem with your shrill rhetoric. I am a kind, decent, loving neighbor, friend, husband, father, father-in-law and grandfather. Yes I am an atheist but I am more “Christian” than many of the Christians you know.
How about asking me WHY I support a woman’s right to an abortion? If asked, you would find out that:
- I don’t think human life begins at conception. Potential life, yes, but human life? No.
- When I see a picture of the zygote above I don’t see a “baby.” It is a group of cells not a baby.
- I support a woman’s right to use birth control to keep from getting pregnant. I know that some forms of birth control causes spontaneous abortions. I have no problem with this since I don’t think life begins at conception.
- Since 88% of abortions occur in the first trimester, long before viability, I fully support a woman’s right to an abortion. (and access to morning after drugs)
- I do not support abortion on demand after viability. However, only 12,000 a year occur after viability and, in most cases, these abortions are medically necessary due to health concerns of the mother, the fetus, or both.
I am an atheist. I don’t believe in God, I don’t believe what the Bible teaches. My beliefs are not governed by the Bible. When I came to the view I now hold on abortion it was because of the science behind the abortion debate.
I am also a father, father-in-law, and a grandfather. If ANY of the women in my family were raped or were carrying a fetus that could cost them their lives, I would want them to have access to every medical and psychological means necessary to help them. I am most concerned for the LIVING.
I didn’t come to this position easily. I have a daughter with Down Syndrome. I know many women have an abortion when they find out they are carrying a fetus with Down's. I can’t imagine our life without Bethany. My brother was born three months premature, not too many weeks past the viability line. I can’t imagine life without my little brother.
My point is this…everything doesn’t fit neatly in a pro-life or pro-choice box. Life is messy and we are forced to make hard decisions all the time. This post is an attempt to get people to see that it is simplistic and offensive when people label me as a murderer or evil. (and when you say people who support abortion are murderers or evil you ARE saying I am a murderer or evil)
I have long since come to the conclusion that there is no common ground to be had with people who are pro-life. (and Mike I am not talking about you) They start with religion rather than science and I see no way of finding common ground.
I understand the pro-life view, I really do. I was pro-life for most of my adult life. I fully understand the why’s of being pro-life. I know all the proof-texts and I think the Bible readily supports the pro-life view. (and the pro-slavery, pro-polygamy, pro-incest, pro-genocide view too)
I understand where you are coming from. Now it is time for you to give me the same courtesy.
I have to say that I agree with most of what you say, and I am an Evangelical Christian. I don’t see the Bible supporting life at conception. Otherwise, the O.T. laws would have had a man killed for causing a pregnant woman to lose her baby.
Having said that, why do pro choice advocates want to keep the “right” to abort at any time during the pregnancy? What is the difference between the unborn child from sex and the unborn one from rape? Or for that matter, the born child? Has the child done something wrong?
If the U. S. would take your stance on abortion, I would be quite happy. And you are right, things don’t fit in neat boxes. Life is like that.
I have a problem with unrestricted abortion on demand through all nine months. Once viability is reached then there must be medical reasons for the abortion. Only 12,000 abortions a year fit in this category.
The vast majority of abortions take place in the first trimester, well before viability.
I think abortion rights groups are extreme on abortion out of fear of the religious right. They rightly know they religious right is never satisfied. Give in to them and they want more and more. The religious right is a master of incrementalism.The dozens of new abortion laws as proof of this
Incrementalism used to be the procedure of many groups. It went to the compromise attitude of governing that used to be the norm, and is now so rare. Many of the liberal causes used it through the fifties, sixties, and seventies.
The attitude “I am right without a doubt and you should change your mind” has seemed to infect both sides of the political spectrum.
Between 30 and 40 thousand (born) people die every year in automobile accidents. But we never hear fundamentalists railing against the automobile. EVERY automobile death is simply an act of God. But not ANY abortion. God uses the technology of the internal combustion engine to accomplish his inscrutable ends, making the necessary adjustments to accomodate human technology; but NOT abortion. He sometimes finds the automobile useful; but never abortion.
Christians only rail against sins they think they or their children will never commit. The sins they (we) routinely commit are ignored.
If this was not so then I would be able to drive the freeway at the speed limit without blocking traffic.
A Blcak serial rapist?
You fucking bigot.
Nope, not at all. Did you notice I used a white man in the next illustration?
I live in an area that is 99% white and overwhelmingly Pro-life. Racism is a real problem in this area. I introduced race into the discussion to get to worst possible example of an unwanted pregnancy for a white woman in this area.
At no time did I intimate all serial rapists are black.
Nonetheless, I don’t want to take away from the point of my post so I removed the race references.
Thank you for commenting.
You are good to do this, but there is no doubt that a LOT of the hysteria governing so much of the contemporary political circus is racial. As if race wouldn’t make a difference. Please.
A question Bruce there are 403,200 minutes in the average pregnancy , at what minute does the foetus become human, does it happen instantaneously or it it something that happen over days and weeks. We can all draw on images of awful thing to make our point , you bring up rape a lot but can you imagine a big pile of 25 week old foetus `s
in a heap on an abortion clinics floor , not a pretty picture .I believe the bible says life begins at conception so that is why I take a stand on abortion. As you say tell your daughter that you would support someone`s right to abort her just because they see her as less than human, because you may not support there right to abort a so called perfect human but a down syndrome child well that`s ok.As regards saying you support murder if you support abortion so millions of american can be accused of being murderers well as not being an american I consider all the wars the average american supports as murder , but I am not calling for you all to be arrested, maybe I should. Once again this arguement live and dies on when is a baby a baby all the rest is just window dressing, so Bruce when is a bay a baby.
12,000 fetuses are aborted after viability. 240 per state. Less than one per state per day. So much for your pile of fetuses.
No, I support a woman and her doctor being able to decide what is the right thing to do. Do some abortions occur that shouldn’t? Sure and that’s regrettable and we should make sure such things don’t happen.
You keep trying to force your Bible morality on this discussion and that won’t work with me. If you want to believe that life begins at fertilization so be it but don’t expect others to live by your moral code.
Science,not theology, must be the determining factor. God doesn’t decide what is life and what isn’t. We decide and then regulate it with laws. That is how it’s supposed to work in a secular state.
Btw, where does the Bible say directly that life begins at fertilization? Not verses that you infer this from.
I want actual, in context, verses that state life begins at fertilization and that aborting a zygote is murder.
Luke 1-41 the baby in her womb. Also any verse which states that a women is with child. These maybe be tenuous links but it only ever speaks of women with child never women with foetus etc, so if John in his mothers womb is a baby and the bible never
tell us when he or anyone else becomes a human baby I have to infer he was always a human baby.
Now a question , if you don’t believe in God I assume you don’t believe humans have souls but are just animals smart animals but animals none the less. So if the abortion issue is one of quality , the foetus has no soul is just an animal, and the quality of its life is judged in this way ” its just a mass of cells “not a human, not a person, What test would you allow on the quality of humanity as it relates to handicapped people? what level of brain function, of body mobility , of functionality drops below the level of what we consider human.I am not trying to force my morality on anyone but if I believe abortion is wrong I think I should speak and only speak against it. And maybe vote against as abortion is still Illegal here.
So there is no actual verse hat says life begins at conception. The belief is inferred from Scripture and not by a direct command.
There is more to the value of a human life than just intellect. However, caring for a child that is severely physically or mentally deformed can be overwhelming and some women are not able to do this.
We see at quite often. Child is born severely deformed and lives a year, suffering immensely the whole time. We put a dog down when it is suffering but when it comes to a woman carrying a severely deformed fetus, pro-lifers demand she carry the fetus to term just she can watch the baby suffer and die. To make matters worse she is then left with huge medical bills. (interestingly most pro-lifers are against single payer government sponsored health care that would alleviate the mother’s financial burden)
According to the family expert (my wife), it was usually the fourth month before a woman could be sure of being pregnant. Basicly, when you could feel movement. A woman who was very regular in her cycle would know at her first missed period. But even she could be sick or spontaneously abort.
L Lyod, kudos to your good spirit. But 2/3 of fertilized eggs fail to implant. Does this mean that God willfully kills 2/3 of humanity?
Where in the NT does it say, You must be conceived again? I mean, honestly.
Rand, I don’t believe that life begins at conception. One reason is what you said. Another is the Old Testament law that if a man accidentally caused a pregnant woman to lose her child, he was fined, not killed. There is a difference.
Most True Believer Christians have zero knowledge of theological arguments about the origin of the soul. Most don’t know that well over half of all conceptions are “spontaneously” aborted – by God. What kind of a god would create a soul for a “person” HE was planning to abort?
Where/how does an aborted “person” get his personality? What is the personality of a collection of undifferentiated cells? Does God “ploop” them into adulthood and provide them with a fictional personality and history?
Only asking,
bill
I think most people are somewhere in the middle on all this. I think that’s where I am. Thoughts that come to my mind-I feel sorry for babies that aren’t wanted. I find it scary that someone could have the right to decide whether someone gets to live or not. It seems like having an abortion would take a toll on most women. I think women have a strong urge to protect the fetus growing inside them. I’ve never been faced with knowing something’s not normal with a fetus, so I don’t know how I would actually feel or what I would do if in that situation.
The feelings I have re abortion have nothing to do with God or the Bible. I’m agnostic.
I think thinking of a very early fetus as potential life sorta makes sense. But then I know that if left alone that potential life is gonna rapidly turn into a baby that can survive on its own with some help.
I have much sympathy for pregnant women in very difficult situations. Like I said, I have no idea what I’d do if faced with that. I have less sympathy with what, to me, seems like extreme women who say it’s their body and how dare anybody else tell them what they can or can’t do with it. I think that thinking is about women trying to have the same freedoms that men have and will let nothing stand in the way of that. I can understand that to a point, but it bothers me. I don’t like the idea that there are women who seem to have such little regard for children. It seems like babies must die on the alter of women’s rights. That really bothers me. Scares me really. It just seems like they’re out there screaming about the right to kill babies if they feel like it. Makes me feel like-wow, that’s really messed up. I can’t identify with those women. I don’t want to be like them or have people think they represent most women.
So I guess I’m trying to say that the extremists on both sides-one scares me and the other seems pretty ridiculous and unreasonable.
So I think me and most people fall somewhere in the middle. I’d like discussing this on a more human level. The statistics were informative. It seems we always just hear from the extremists on both sides. We hear about the extreme cases. I’d rather hear a much more typical scenario that takes place-in other words, describe the situation of most abortions-how did the situation come to be, how do all those involved feel and what do they decide and why.
Thanks for the post, Bruce. I don’t think the Bible has much to do with what people do in real life in these situations. Do you?
As far as the women’s rights ideas-yes, pregnancy and childbirth are huge things for a woman to deal with. Yes, children can really clip your wings. You lose a lot of freedom when you have children. But it amazes me when all that is looked at as a negative or as worthless. I think it’s just the opposite. And I still retain all my sympathies for women in all situations.
Thanks, Bruce, for the post, as I already said. It gave me a chance to express my thoughts. I’ve rarely had a chance to talk about this subject face-to-face with anybody. So having your blog as a safe-feeling place to say something is very nice.
What the bible says about cannibalism.
Christian bible god is pro-people eating their children.
Leviticus 26:29
“You shall eat the flesh of your sons and of your daughters.”
Jeremiah 19:3
“And say, Hear the word of the Lord, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem. Thus says the Lord of hosts, The God of Israel: Behold, I am going to bring such evil upon this place that the ears of whoever hears of it will tingle.”
Jeremiah 19:9
“And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and they shall eat each one the flesh of his neighbor and friend in the siege and in the distress with which their enemies and those who seek their lives distress them.”
Christian bible god is a happy-go-lucky self proclaimed baby killer.
Isaiah 13:16
“Their infants also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.”
Ezekiel 9:6
“Slay outright the elderly, the young man and the virgin, the infant and the woman; but do not touch or go near anyone whom is the mark. Begin at My sanctuary. So they began with the old men who were in front of the temple [who did not have the Lord's mark on their foreheads].”
Numbers
31: 17 “Now therefore, KILL every male among the little ones, and Kill every woman who is not a virgin.
31:18 “But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.”
2 Kings 2:23-24
“He went up from Jericho to Bethel. On the way, young [maturing and accountable] boys came out of the city and mocked him and said to him, Go up [in a whirlwind], you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!
And he turned around and looked at them and called a curse down on them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and ripped up forty-two of the boys.”
2 Kings 15:16
“Then Menahem smote Tiphsah and all who were in it and its territory from tirzah on; he attacked it because they did not open to him. And all the women there who were with child we ripped up.”
Hosea 13:16
“Samaria shall bear her guilt and become desolate, for she rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women shall be ripped up.”
1 Samuel 15:3
“Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.”
PSALM 137:9
“Happy and blessed shall he be who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock!”
Classic. Love personified.
St. Augustine said, “Any woman who acts in such a way that she cannot give birth to as many children as she is capable of, makes herself guilty of that many murders.”
Martin Luther wrote: “God created Adam lord of all living creatures, but Eve spoiled it all. Women should remain at home, sit still, keep house and bear children. And if a woman grows weary and, at last, dies from childbearing, it matters not. Let her die from bearing; she is there to do it.”
“Anders Behring Breivik christian terrorist, pro-forced-birther.
What he thinks about womens rights, women need to breed, breed, breed.
1. Limit the distribution of birth-control pills (contraceptive pills): Discourage the use of and prevent liberal distribution of contraceptive pills or equivalent prevention methods. The goal should be to make it considerably more difficult to obtain. This alone should increase the fertility rate by 0,1 points but would degrade women’s rights.
2. Reform sex education: Reform the current sex education in our school institutions. This may involve limiting it or at least delaying sex education to a later age and discourage casual sex. Sex should only be encouraged within the boundaries of marriage. This alone should increase the fertility rate by 0,1 points.
3. Making abortion illegal: A re-introduction of the ban on abortion should result in an increased fertility rate of approximately 0,1-0,2 points but would strip women of basic rights.
4. Women and education: Discourage women in general to strive for full time careers. This will involve certain sexist and discriminating policies but should increase the fertility rate by up to 0,1-0,2 points.
Women should not be encouraged by society/media to take anything above a bachelor’s degree but should not be prevented from taking a master or PhD. Males on the other hand should obviously continue to be encouraged to take higher education – bachelor, master and PhD.”
“Self-Described ‘Christian Counterpart To Osama Bin Laden’ Arrested In Plot To Bomb Abortion Clinic
Justin Carl Moose describe “himself” as the Christian counterpart to Osama bin Laden. Moose wrote: “I have learned a lot from the muslim terrorists and have no problem using their tactics.”
Each year about 890,000 women have abortions in Pakistan, and every day 10 women die because they had an unsafe abortion. Some 560,000 Filippina women have unsafe illegal abortions every year, with 90,000 suffering complications from the procedure and 1,000 dying.~
Pro-forced-birthers favorite piece of literature of all time.
Genesis 3:16
“I will greatly multiply your grief and your suffering in pregnancy and the pangs of childbearing; with spasms of distress you will bring forth children. Yet your desire and cravings will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
“In the 1800′s when chloroform was introduced to the US to help ease the excruciating pain of childbirth for women, it was woman-hating Christians who fought against its permitted use on the grounds that easing women’s childbirth pain was contrary to God’s will. They cited the book of Genesis where God punishes women with the curse of pain in childbirth.”
What pro-forced-birthers think of raped little girls.
”Church excommunicates mother of 9-year-old rape victim – but not accused rapist.”
“A senior Vatican cleric has defended the Catholic Church’s decision to excommunicate the mother and doctors of a nine-year-old rape victim who had a life-saving abortion in Brazil.”
“Police believe the girl was sexually assaulted for years by her stepfather, possibly since she was six. That she was four months pregnant with twins emerged only after she was taken to hospital complaining of severe stomach pains.”
Thanks for sharing ths.
I agree with that abortions ought to be completely legal to the age of viability. After that, a woman and her doctor need to make the decision about what to do. I imagine that very few women decide casually to abort after the twenty week mark. By then you are usually visibly pregnant and have known for some time that you are pregnant. If you wanted an abortion, by then you would have had one. So who does get an abortion after 20 weeks? Women with babies who have severe abnormalities, which may be completely incompatible with life outside the womb, women with babies that will be gravely ill with terminal illnesses which will kill them in the first few months of life, women who suddenly become very ill or much more severely ill and who will dies unless they end their pregnancy (a doubly whammy when they so wanted the child) and sometimes, women who are faced with a serious change to their circumstances (divorce, widowed, thrown out of the house, out of money) who know they cannot care for a baby and rarely, someone who just doesn’t want to be pregnant anymore. These circumstances are not all alike, and laws that try to treat complicated problems with blanket rules never fully work.
The other problem I have with life beginning at conception is that it is now thought that many fertilized eggs never implant or implant only briefly before being expelled from the womb. We just haven’t been able to detect this since the process is hidden inside the woman’s body. So it seems to me that if life begins at conception and God rules the womb, then God is responsible for a lot of death.
Many women spontaneously abort without knowing they were pregnant. It shows up in a subsequent blood work-up.
Looking over the comments, I remember a survey done by Focus on the Family years ago. Rather than the for/against abortion split, they defined and eight attitude ranging from no abortion ever to abortion anytime. Then they threw in the ‘I don’t know’ category. The attitudes turned out to be fairly evenly spread among all categories. It showed that both sides grossly over-simplify the discussion.
Good point. That’s true of seemingly every political issue nowadays. It seems to grow out of the nature of internet “discussion,” which tends to polarize. I stopped being anonymous in part to force myself to behave better (and nothing against anyone else’s anonymity, do what you feel is best). But anonymity allows people to take the grossest potshots at people on the other side, which I think is pretty dysfunctional. It’s one thing to have someone disagree with you, quite another to be personally insulted in the bargain. I suspect it has things in common with the behavior of people in mobs (crowds). But also I think people “perform” for those of like mind, with ever escalating rhetoric. Hence, Godwin’s Law.
Not that I am not constantly guilty of inflammatory rhetoric. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!
Question for you atheists. How does abortion fit in with the idea of the evolutionary biological imperative of reproducing? Wouldn’t they be contradictory?
There are other factors to consider: the ability to care for the chid, the suitability of the parent, the emotional and psychological disposition of the parent…to name a few.
We all know of people who should ever have had kids so we admit there are other factors to consider than just the need to reproduce.
I have six children and I love them all. However, I would not want my children to have six children. In the world we live in today, we need less mouths to feed not more.
I don’t see how you dealt with the biological imperative. It seems you are just appealing to a moral compass, just not a religious one.
I have some issues with your statements, but that would be wandering off the question I asked, and/or playing devil’s advocate.
Any one else?
I see no contradiction. The imperative is for the species to survive and thrive, not produce the maximum offspring. That would be counterproductive as we see in cultures that grow beyond the food source to sustain. Or as we seem to be doing ourselves on this planet. Consider that at some point states are going to have to control population growth and could lead to more abortions. Contraception will become a more valued technique. Something the pro choice folks should be promoting now to reduce abortion rates if they were rational.
How does it suit the biological imperative to have as many children as possible but have many or most or even all of them die, as was fairly common in the era before modern medicine?
How does it suit the biological imperative to have the mother die due to pregnancy and therefore not be able to care for her children that she already has given birth to? Or not have more children since you can’t have more children if you’re dead?
I think , perhaps, it is a mistake to think of the biological imperative as being one goal only, to have young. It seems to me that other goals exist in complex creatures, sometimes in conflict with the goal to reproduce. Eating, safety, the desire to remain with the group when one’s baby cannot keep up, to name a few off the top of my head.
Thanks for your answers, Bruce, maraden, and Renoliz.
The thing to remember about the “biological imperative” is that it is not sentient, it is not a personality seeking an end, it has no goal. Cancer isn’t some smart invader of your system that actively seeks to kill you–it is just the mindless replication of cells in such a way that the integrity of your body is disrupted to the point of not be able to function to sustain your life. Because disease is mindless, intervention in the workings of the universe is part and parcel of our human approach to life. The guinea worm is soon to be eradicated from Africa because we examined its behaviors and taught people how to avoid propagating it. A classic example of natural selection. Human minds, as magical as they are, are part of the environment, the natural selective processes, so parasites beware! Nothing in the Bible told us to how to eradicate the guinea worm. Based on standard Christian exegesis, one might say that we’re tempting “God,” who evidently invented the guinea worm, by eradicating it. Should Christians be in the streets fighting the eradication of this part of “God”‘s creation? According to their epistemology, I don’t see how they can say they shouldn’t. But in the end, “God” is just a label for your own internal ethics, for the sense of love you have for people of your bones, for your recognition that working together we help ourselves. Our forbears realized the hostility of life, so they made up stories to try and explain the nature of things. We find these in all cultures. Things happen, and the timeless model of why is due to some kind of willing agency. Hence a million gods. They are often charming, and deeply resonant with our psyches, but they aren’t fact. Let it go. Realize the future is in your own hands. Live accordingly. Honestly, I think the atheist/agnostic perspective on life is a thousand times more honest than clinging to some fiction. And it makes us responsible in a way no god can. That suffering child is YOUR responsibility.
I am convinced that human activity is described by Social Darwinism, not evolution. Social Darwinists think in terms of complexity and social choices In other words, Social Darwinism has a preconceived notion of the direction that evolution will take.
Evolutionists do not! Evolutionists do not predict the outcome of evolution. Evolution is a description of a process, not an outcome.
Modern meds and social customs have made humans less able to adapt to changing conditions without the help of machinery and chemicals. Modern science permits and encourages the transmission of defective DNA to the next generation.
First of all, Bruce, this is a really good post. Thank you for taking the time to gather the stats you did. Naturally, I do take issue with a couple of things you stated, as well as would like to parity my own position on the topic.
Early in your post, you justify a medical necessity by “health concerns of the mother, the fetus, or both.” But how does a concern make the jump to a necessity?
You stated “It is inconsistent and hypocritical to call yourself pro-life and then turn right around and say, in some circumstances it is permissible to kill the fetus.” You are absolutely right! It must be an either/or position. Those who adhere to any exceptions are basing such on a feeling rather than a conviction.
And furthermore on feelings, regarding the hypothetical questions you asked, my wife and I both discussed them. While we absolutely grant that each and very one of them is and would be extremely difficult, we ourselves were struck with the either/or scenario that was set-up with any regard for the unborn life. Yes, these are difficult questions, but how one can make them so quickly with no consideration for the effect upon the unborn life is beyond us.
I call myself a Christian based upon my faith in God and His Son Jesus Christ, as well as my faith in His selfless act on the cross. As such, you are exactly right that murderers have no part in the gift of salvation offered because of the sin debt Christ paid on the cross. I am against abortion. I am also against war. But then, there is war – graphic, killing-filled war – in the Bible. I’m stumped.
Is it possible in stating your position on murder and other things Christians don’t do, you’re confusing the act of salvation with the process of sanctification?
Moving on, because I do believe life begins at conception, I have no issue with the implications of this listed in your monologue on personhood. My agreement with the things on your list is based on a conviction of life beginning at conception. By simply asking, “Is what you see a baby and that by aborting it you are committing murder?” you are playing on the word ‘baby.’ I don’t see a baby, nor does anyone else in their right mind. I see life, and I see the ending of it through abortion which nullifies any opportunity of the growth of it into a baby and beyond. Of course it is nonsense to call it a baby, because it is not yet the infant form of a human. By phrasing the question is such a way, you use a red herring to draw attention away from life and to the nonsensical mistake pro-lifers often make in calling an embryo a baby. At best or worst, the picture you show is life and a potential baby.
Lastly, the people you listed in the abortion process and stated are all murderers based on a pro-lifer’s position are, in my mind, accomplices to murder except for the person who actually commits the abortive act. A small distinction, but I believe an important one, as does our justice system.
To your final question, sure I believe murders are evil. And sure, I believe there are many accomplices to the murder of life through the process of abortion. And I agree that those who believe in the abortive choice and process are accomplices to such murder. But in what you may consider classic “hate sin, not the sinner” mentality, I don’t mind being around you at all, Bruce. In fact, despite my disagreement with some, I rather enjoy your writings.
Carry on faithfully, Bruce, and have a great day!
The jump from concern to necessity is determined by a woman and her doctor.
The picture was no red herring. Pro-lifers believe life begins at conception. Growing in the womb is a baby. This is why many pro-lifers refuse to use the word fetus. The picture forces people to focus on reality rather than an abstract political and religious talking point.
I don’t buy the hate the sin, love the sinner line. Your Bible calls for executing murderers. If abortion is murder, then everyone party to the abortion has committed murder and should be executed.
Josh, I think the Bible teaches works salvation. I also believe, when backed into a corner, so does most every Christian sect. (with a few antinomian exceptions)
“I have less sympathy with what, to me, seems like extreme women who say it’s their body and how dare anybody else tell them what they can or can’t do with it.”
My rapist had the same problem with me when I was little, I said it is my body.
“I think that thinking is about women trying to have the same freedoms that men have and will let nothing stand in the way of that”
I am one of those women who say this is my body! I got my views on abortion from ten years of repeated sexual abuse. I was desperate to say; “this is my body” “no one can use it, or dictate it against my will”. But like I said I have much experience with this and I know it gives certain people a thrill to force and dictate women and little girls vaginas, we should not have full ownership of our vaginas. There is this group who want a clause were they can take custody of our vaginas and FORCE our vaginas to be subject to their commands, they so remind me of the misogynistic rapist I grew up with, they have his same mentality about women and little girls.
My mother did the good little Christian girl thing to do, she got married at seventeen, the moment she graduated high school, married a southern Baptist preachers son, then she had me. My father who was five years older then her and twice her size beat my teenage mother in her face because I was crying as a sick baby, my teenage mothers face gushed blood. I was always sick as a baby and caused doctor bills, and cried a lot. My good ol boy father took it out on my clueless mother. I wish my mother had aborted me, I have told her this many times, she says she wishes her mother had aborted her. My being born trapped my mother in a very toxic situation, I ruined my mothers health, mentality, and life, I have never been more important then my mother.
I was sexually abused the first ten years of my life. My mother being a very naive Christian girl who had the mentality, resources, and information of a seven-year-old little girl, could not, and did not protect me. She could not help her self, we were both trapped in Christian land. I have had insomnia all my life, I have had nightmares all my life, I am very afraid of men. My mother had me and a very young women’s life was ruined forever, and I was sexually terrorized for the first ten years of my life. But it does not matter, all that matters is that I was used to subjugate my mother, what calamities happen to me and my mother after my birth is trivial.
“I think that thinking is about women trying to have the same freedoms that men have and will let nothing stand in the way of that”
Women having the same rights as men! My southern Baptist Christian family also hated that idea, and mocked that idea. They did a lot of mocking of women’s rights, this is what they thought of women. A woman cannot deny her husband sex, ever! There is no such thing as rape in marriage. If a man beats his wife it is her fault for not being submissive enough, the only reason a woman can divorce her husband is adultery. NOT rape or wife beating, of course they are pro-forced-birth.
I have cried many, many times over you people going on about pregnancy from rape. I could not say I was raped until nine years after it stopped, my mother asked when I was sixteen, and I lied, and said I was not raped. Saying I was raped is the hardest thing in the world to say.
“And I still retain all my sympathies for women in all situations.” I do not feel any sympathy coming from you, just Goebbles, repeat something enough and it is true.
Your post could have been written by Phyllis Schlafly, or Sharron Angle. The things you said are stuff repeated by southern Baptist, I know I was born and raised in that little girl rape, wife-beating world.
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm
Thank you for your brave post. It’s easy to say this or that about rape, incest, abortion, personhood, etc. when it’s all in theory, but we need real stories from real humans to be able to examine the issues with true compassion.
You say your mother’s life would have been better had you been aborted (or never conceived?), but now that you are here, I hope you are learning to find healing and joy and life.
Minnie,
Your response to my comments has left me with much to think about. I’ve decided not to comment further on these matters, since you are right that talking about this subject in theory is quite a different thing than having actually experienced these things in real life. I do not want to cause you further pain.
I think you were very courageous to share your true and heartfelt feelings based on your experiences. I’m sorry that any of us have to go through any of these kind of situations. I hope, in time, you will find you have come through all of this to a good place, if you have not already.
Hi
No woman should ever be raped or beaten by any man, least of all her husband. I am ashamed of my half of the human race for what you went through. What was done to you is appalling and you are very courageous to share your story.
What makes it worse is that your Southern baptist father ( preacher’s son) beat your mother. Where was the tenderness, the compassion, the kindness that you needed to receive from your father and that you mother badly needed? It was absent.
Where was the welcoming, open hearted, tolerant, warm-hearted and servant heart of your father and his parents when you needed a soft place to fall? Absent!
I hope your future is better than what you have experienced in the past. May all the pain and heartache you have gone through be healed over time and may you be continue to be a courageous inspiration to all you meet.
Shalom,
John Arthur
Hi Minnie,
P.S. i don’t know if your trauma will ever be overcome but somehow I hope that you will find some healing. i’ve not been through anything like you have been through, and I hope I never will, but my best wishes for your future.
John Arthur
I have refused to watch any “news” coverage of the political conventions, instead, relying on The Daily Show and The Colbert Report. A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down, as they say. I hope you caught Samantha Bee’s brilliant take on this very subject earlier this week. She deserves an Emmy.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-august-29-2012/rnc-2012—the-road-to-jeb-bush-2016—the-republican-platform?xrs=playershare_fb
Being a saved Christian, through the years I’ve learned to look at this a different way. What the mother does is between her and God, but the ”fetus” or ”baby” goes directly to eternal heaven. The Lord takes them by the hand showing them the glory of heaven, the baby never misses this so called wonderful life. But if born, the odds are greatly against them to become a saved Cristian. And God-forbid if they are homosexual because the church will throw hate in their face and condemn them to hell to burn for billions and billions of years. Let the mother choose, let the baby go to eternal joy, the baby won’t ever complain.
So … Shouldn’t the Christian position be to support abortion in order to send those baby souls directly on to Heaven before they have a chance to sin? In fact, wouldn’t it be better for all of us to have died in the womb or shortly after our birth?
Nah. Sounds kind of silly when one tries to apply Christian dogma to real life, doesn’t it?
My response was more for the Christians who only look at one side, the side they are told to look at and accept. But Bruce does a good job on this on a daily basis.
Hi Minnie – I have to tell you I fell in love with you at your first posting above, before you shared your Heart with us. We have similar stories you and I but my story does not compare to the agony you experienced. Please know your pain is felt and commisserated with here on Bruce’s blog as most of us have experienced the brutalness that can come with our particular religion. I hope you continue to heal and continue to share as I think that may be the healing balm. Much love and hugs to you Minnie.
Bruce,
The difference between right and left wings is that the left wing anti-abortionists also support child welfare programs but right wing ant-abortionists want to cut every sort of welfare support for the children they want to save.
Don’t the right wing Christians know that the majority of the children they want to “save” will spend at least their first 18 years on welfare? If they can’t own slaves then they will breed serfs?
bill
Surely the standard evangelical view must be that if we just all believed in the Lord Jesus and acted accordingly, there would be no out of wedlock pregnancies, no single moms, no damaged children (outside of the corrective rod), no rape, etc. Everyone would be married and families would thrive. Within this model, NOT believing in Jesus is an act of defiance, poisoning every argument one might make, with sin. Humanism is “man’s way,” conservative Christianity’s interpretation of the Bible is “God’s way.” The problem of course is that the Bible isn’t true, isn’t a timeless oracle, but rather various peoples’ striving with mortality and society to try to fashion some means of our not destroying each other. The Bible is full of wisdom, but being embedded in particular cultures, will invariably be dissonant in some ethical respects with other cultures. For me the biggest problem has become its central injunction to worship a fiction. The only way I can make sense of “God” in Christianity is to see the whole idea as some kind of personification of a Platonic moral ideal (not in the Biblical record, but in the way this Being is constantly presented today). This “God” is always cast in omni’s, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc. That the world is full of suffering, that bird-headed dwarves are born, that children are raped and murdered doesn’t faze the proponents of this view (my own sister was killed by a drunken driver, who fled the scene, and left my 4 and 5 year old nephew and niece to fend for themselves on the edge of a highway at midnight). Whatever happens is the “best of all possible worlds,” to quote Candide. I recommend that anyone thinking about God read Plato’s dialogue, Euthyphro, it was probably the single most eye-opening religious piece I’ve ever read. I’m sure its free all over the internet.
As a mom, who is married in a stable, loving home, I would have found it difficult to get an abortion emotionally. But if my life was threatened, if the fetus was badly, severely deformed, that would have been different. Still difficult to abort, but my family would have needed me more.
It isn’t the government’s business what I do with my uterus…seems like pretty big government to me!
No one knows when true human life begins. To say it begins at conception is ridiculous, although that is a very certain marker. Some people use birth which is another certain marker. The problem is, the ultra religious conservatives want to do away with birth control which has been PROVEN to cut down on abortions. They are all about ideology, not reality. The personhood amendments and doing away with birth control show that they are about controlling people. I find this very chilling.