It looks like the sin was an inappropriate relationship with a young woman. If the police are involved, this means the woman is under-age, was raped, or Schaap took advantage of her while in a professional relationship.
The police do not investigate adultery. I am sure the complete story will be out in a matter of days.
Here is a taste, from the comment section of the above linked post, of the thinking that will go on among the followers of Jack Schaap:
you are all a bunch of LIARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that is NOT NOT true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All Pastor Schaap is trying to do is get all of you BIG mouths from going to hell!!!!!! Get your nose out of First Baptist Church’s business and start worrying about where you will spend eternity!!! Pastor Schaap is a GREAT man of God!!!!!! Im soooooo thankful for Him!!!!!! He will have many many rewards in heaven!!!!!!!!!!!
I saw similar defenses of Schaap’s father-in-law, Jack Hyles when he was caught up in his own sex scandal. Who can forget people wearing buttons that said 100% Hyles.
Hyles, along with Schaap taught the people of First Baptist of Hammond to not believe what they did not see. The evidence must be overwhelming for the Church to publicly out Schaap and fire him.
I read one blog that said David Gibbs was flying in to “manage” the crisis. Gibbs is an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist attorney from the Christian Law Association. He is the big gun of attorneys for the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist movement.
How in the world do you find out the real truth? Several different versions of events are out there. You don’t know whether the initial reports from people who claim to know from insiders, are true, or if the later reports from supposed insiders are true-or just spin. Now we’re inserting a big-time lawyer to manage the crisis. His whole deal is defending Christians or Christian organizations who are supposedly some kind of victim, right? So he’s probably gonna smooth over the whole thing. Maybe most in the church will start to feel better and start to feel sorry for poor Schaap and be anxious to get about forgiving him as God would want them to do. Then of course his wife, who’s spent her life explaining how to be a good Christian wife, will stand proudly by her man, and life will go on. How depressing.
I did feel some hope there for a little while yesterday, when I was reading through comments. I felt like, “Wow, finally, the IFB is getting exposed for what it really is and all the hurt and damage it causes. People in it are starting to wake up.” I hope that’s really true!
I, too, noticed comments in the Chicago paper defending Schaap were women. Men generally seem to not be as blind to the probably that it is all true. I guess that’s because men know how men think, and women are smart but want to trust.
Re the lack of male voices defending Schaap: Consider the mindset. Anyone who would go to the wall for any of the Hyles-Anderson bunch is someone who believes there’s real value in a worthless “diploma” for taking courses such as “Christian Manhood” (for men only, of course) and “Associate of Science Diploma in Marriage and Motherhood” (for “ladies” only, of course).
In other words, if women are defending Schaap, they’re just abiding by Pastor Hyles’s admonition to stand on the sidelines, brainlessly cheer on their men, and treat them as little gods. Likewise, the men buy into the male-superiority/female-inferiority business.
Thus, I think Hyles-brainwashed men identify with Schaap — and may be keeping their traps shut because they’re shaken to the core by the idea that one of their role models is not invincible, or untouchable… and neither are they.
Whoever’s defending Schaap (and I don’t even need to see the comments to know exactly what they’re saying, as this happens, with monotonous regularity, every time some creep with a messiah complex is brought down in a scandal*), it all boils down to somebody’s cognitive dissonance getting rocked. (“If I was wrong about Pastor Schaap, what else might I be wrong about? My own husband? My faith????”) Sometimes that’s all it takes to unravel the whole ball of yarn.
Which, when it comes to IFBs, is always a good thing.
P.S. As far as knowing what’s true or not about Schaap, we know this much: 1) His own church ousted him for his “sin,” and 2) the police and the FBI are reportedly involved. Meaning: 1) It was bad enough that the church felt compelled to distance itself from Schaap immediately and call the cops (have you ever heard of First Baptist doing anything about mere adultery other than covering it up?), and 2) as Bruce says above, cops don’t investigate adultery… at least not when the parties involved are consenting adults. I know how I’d wager.
* Although I certainly will look to see what they’re saying; there’s certain satisfaction (and even relief) in seeing one more believer’s harmful, dangerous fantasy world shattered.
Since it was an “inappropriate relationship with a young woman”,
what does that MEAN? It’s the IFB, bro. Remember when we were
in “College” with these people? This could be visiting a young woman
by himself in the hospital or sitting to close to her in Church.
But, I COMPLETELY agree with you, for them to go public like this
and FIRE him, the evidence against Schaap must be catastrophic.
“Hyles, along with Schaap taught the people of First Baptist of Hammond to not believe what they did not see.”
Like God, for instance?
The flock is supposed to believe in the big guy in the sky as proof of their faith, but when accusations start flying around, they are to ignore anything that they themselves did not personally witness? Do I have that right, Bruce?
So now I’m reading his “sin” was with a 16-year-old brought across state lines for their interludes (or at least started when she was 16)? And yep, the comments have several responses about not judging and at least one about Satan’s influence in the world today.
Wow, sounds like a good old fashioned Mann Act violation! Transporting minors across state lines for immoral purposes! It’s a federal offense, so that explains the FBI’s involvement. Of course, we all know the Feds are a tool of Satan under Obama, so the hysterical faithful will have lots to speculate about.
I love it when these sanctimonious frauds are exposed.
I’m just curious, Bruce, as to whether you have an opinion… do you think the super-famous, super-successful mega-church pastors are more susceptible to this sort of fall, or do you think it’s found equally among pastors of all church sizes? I would think that “success” might more likely breed the narcissism that results in this kind of behavior.
Same question I was going to ask, Rand.
I think success can breed narcissism. (though some may have been narcissists to start with) We see this not only in the religious world but in the political and corporate world. I am sure you have even seen it in the academic world. The more success a person has the more he thinks highly of himself. When there are no balancing voices and everyone keeps telling you how wonderful you are, they begin to view themselves as invincible. I know that is how it worked for me. I pastored a smaller church but a very successful rural church. It was easy to lose sight of who I really was when people were telling me constantly how great I was.
Good Post!
One of the best books on the problems of shepherding a “mega church” is called: “Too Great a Temptation” by Joel Gregory. As a Southern Baptist minister i read that book once a year. The ideas are timeless as regards to staying grounded as a human being. Biggest lesson I have ever learned: If a pastor is too busy/absorbed to be a true daily constant personal disciple of Jesus Christ he completely is wasting his time and the Kingdom will not directly benefit from his efforts.
Wether you are a minister or not, Mr. Valentine – I recommend this book as very good read.
I am wondering if it isn’t the other way round. That the type of person who becomes a super successful public figure is a narcissistic personality type to start with. That type of person might also have a lot of testosterone and a high sex drive. Combine that with the sexually repressive Evangelical culture, that becomes a dangerous mix.
As a woman’s minister my heart is broken for this mans wife. Her father was exposed as an adulterer, and now her husband. She must be emotionally, a wreck. I pray that she doesn’t turn against God…I counsel women on a regular basis who have been abused by men in the ministry. This makes it very hard for a woman to trust God! Every single person who has turned a deaf ear and blind eye to the brokenness of this entire church for years should cry out to God for forgiveness. Where there is smoke there is fire!
Thanks for your comment. Of course, from my seat in the pew, turning against God might be a good thing.
I do agree that Mrs. Schaap has had more than enough grief in her life.
Okay. Once again I agree with you wholeheartedly. Mrs. Schaap is a very gracious Christian lady who must be humiliated. But I am sure that most people are sympathetic with her plight.
This is a tremendously painful event for the wife, and it is sad.
I think that anyone who had ‘turned a deaf ear or blind eye’ should be doing more than crying out to God. I’ve noticed that God tends to stay on the sidelines a lot, I’ve never seen Him step up and expose someone directly.
It’s always a person speaking up and refusing to tolerate the behavior. Taking action is the only way to demonstrate true repentance.
Have you ever read Jack Hyles’ book “How to Rear Teenagers” (not totally sure that’s the correct title)? I also grew up in the IFB church, under a pastor who was a direct protege of Jack himself. This pastor’s son also had serious problems of abusing young women, actually being kicked out of Bible college three different times for sexual issues. Since it became obvious his son could be groomed as his successor, he took a page from the Hyles manual – his daughter married a HAC grad with (believe it or not) the same name as her daddy (surprise). Having spent 30 years in this kind of church, going to the Hammond youth conferences for years, I began to wonder why HAC was literally BREEDING so many young men/pastors with God-complexes who abuse women. Jack Hyles actually wrote in his book that a boy should NOT be required to listened to his mother after about 16 years old – if you expect him to be a man, you can’t expect him to listen to a woman. It’s not just the pastor-as-God mentality that’s creating this abusive environment all over the country, wherever these HAC grads land; they are literally raising these young men with the view that women are inferior from the time they are little boys. This same pastor’s son I previously mentioned was seen fondling his mother and sisters in VERY inappropriate, sexual ways by numerous church members and if it was questioned at all were told that they misunderstood the “family affection”. This same young man abused a younger girl at the church and in their home over several year. When as an adult that abused girl got therapy and confronted the pastor’s wife with what had happened to her in THEIR home, the wife’s reply was “you’re not going to make trouble for my son about this now, are you”? Multiply this scenario by all the thousands of HAC grads and their sons and now grandsons and it becomes incredibly obvious why we now have this epidemic of sexual sin in churches and schools across the country.
When I first heard Jack Schaap speak it was concerning the law in Deuteronomy about a rape victim marrying her rapist. Most people argue that ‘it doesn’t mean rape’ or there’s a translation issue. Schaap went totus porcus and said that the girl probably had it coming since she was seductive. I have no idea how he could read that out of the verses, and it proved to me he wasn’t exactly the pastor I was looking for.
Just found this blog today. I’m enjoying all of your posts. Thanks.
Here is a good article I found today from the Christian Post. “Call it What it is: It’s not adultery it’s abuse”http://www.christianpost.com/news/call-it-what-it-is-its-not-adultery-its-abuse-79448/
According to some from the church who “know” who the girl is, she was being counseled for prior sexual abuse in her life, and then this jerk revictimizes her.
“Abuse” is still too soft a word. Let’s call it what is really is: rape.
Even the robed monsters of RatZinger’s sick tribe, f/k/a the Holy Roman Catholic Church (into which I was involuntarily baptized as an infant), only get accused of the “abuse” of young and adolescent boys in the press, when what those vicious bastards are actually doing is anally raping them. Let me say it again: these so-called “priests” are anally raping terrified young boys. Brutally sodomizing them, over and over, and then threatening them with eternal fire if they tell anyone. This is not “abuse.” It has been aptly described as the “soul-murder” of these kids.
Abuse simply means to use something in a manner it should not be “used.” You can’t property “use” people in the first place, so by this definition, you can’t “abuse” them either. My best friend was molested by one of these Catholic clerical bastards, and it has deeply affected him for 40 years. And the church fights tooth and nail to avoid responsibility for it.
Schaap is no less a monster than Rat-Zinger’s twisted mob. The pity is, there’s no hell for them all to go to, when at last they draw their last toxic breath.
I am not willing to use the rape word in the Schaap case. The girl was legally of age and by all accounts willingly had a sexual relationship with him.
That said, if he indeed was counseling this girl, then he abused his place of authority and could be prosecuted. Here in Ohio, sexual relations with someone you have a professional relationship with is a felony.
If Schaap can be prosecuted,he should be. I find his actions repugnant.
Totally agree. And if this girl had just said, “Keep your hands off of me we would not have all of these comments.”
I suppose it’s conceivable a 16 year old girl can give real, adult “consent” to a sexual relationship with a married preacher 3 times her age. That’s the only thing that would keep it from being rape. I am unwilling to give him the benefit of that doubt. The pastoral context just makes it that much more reprehensible.
The word “underage” has been used many times, there are girls as young as 13 who can pass as an 18 yr old. I’m not sticking up for Schaap, this girl was not 6 or 7 years old she was at least 17.
I am a former IFB as well and the misconduct of this man is inexcusable. This girl was coming to him for help…knowing what I know from experience he more than likely considered her “damaged goods” and took advantage. The hurt these men cause to people will be answered. ANd to my friend in a post above God did out this man, how arrogant of him to have these pictures of this girl on his cell phone and then leave it sitting around. But on more than one occasion he himself said he was arrogant. This is NOT a representation of the God/Jesus of the Bible…not even the King James Bible. But the problem with IFB church members is they don’t read it for themselves they take whatever is said from the platform as truth instead of searching it our for themselves. Brainwashed is a great word. But I am free from that and now in a great church where women have a brain and can use it.
Even IF (a BIG if) FBC finally gets “exposed” (no pun intended) for what they really are, it matters not.
They really won’t if you think about it, and even if they ARE, it’s how they deal…ugh NOT deal with it.
1. Many will refuse to believe it. Just like the rich man who died and went to hell. It would have been NO good for him to have come back and tell his family, because NOTHING would bring a change of heart and change of mind.
2. Keep in mind, perception is reality. Some cannot POSSIBLY ever believe it to be so with their man of God, right? Some will continue to shake their head in disbelief because internally they’ve moved the switch to “Nope, not him” and it is locked!
3. Ok…so it’s true? THEN what?! Are we to think that the deacons have “come clean” by inviting the scrutiny and investigative work by the FBI on the case? Is an open statement sufficient? FBC (and most churches) have NEVER practiced/exercised church discipline…NEVER.
Even if Schaap admitted to an “improper relationship” or flat out “adultry”, then he needs to make a PUBLIC apology to the FBC. Don’t give him the pulpit, but a written out confession & apology to be read from the pulpit while the interm pastor reads it aloud and Mr Schaap stands in front of the church.
By the way, if Schaap just vacates the city withOUT doing so, every time there is a siting, the ugly story will rear it’s head again, and again, and again, etc…
Just like his brother in law Dave, people are asking of his whereabouts and so forth, people/the media won’t let Schaap alone, BUT if he were to “come clean” before church, it would bring closure to many.
People already have tried to draw time lines in their mind…have figured out how and when and where all the shenanigans took place, etc but they need CLOSURE! Just like victims in a crime…until or unless Schaap is brought before the church, most will never “move on” with their lives is my thinking.
Oh well…enuf blabbering. We’re all arm chair counselors, right? Ha…I say I need to just trust God to handle it and continue to pray.
I’m not sure I’d agree 100% as to why the FBI was brought in.
In all fairness, I think the FBC spokesperson and deacon board really DO want to be forthcoming. There may be a small measure of fear, knowing that past issues of like manner never WERE dealt with, so they’re kinda wanting to come clean THIS time at least.
2ndly…if it involved what was then possibly an underage person, then they wanted to be sure they would not be liable for any “crime”.
They may have decided that, “Hey..we now have an opportunity to show the world that we’re going to deal with this properly…we’ve had our chanceS before, but let’s be right about it this time.”
Then too, however the confession flowed from Schaap to the men at the church, they realized that the tri-state involvement may very well warrant the FBI and gladly submitted to their investigation.
So…what about the teenage girl? How hot was she? How hard did she pursue him? We all know young girls flaunt everything these days to get what they want. a rise from any man they can. especially one in the limelight (our a uniform!) They don’t care if he’s married our not, or if he’s her best friends dad. it’s really sad.young girls are a whoring in our churches. All
Bullshit.
It doesn’t matter how hot she was or whether or not she flaunted herself before him.
He is a grown, mature man, a few years younger than me. By now, he should have learned how to deal with temptation and keep his penis in his pants.
It is reported that he was counseling this girl. If this is true, then he abused his power and authority and, here in Ohio, could be held criminally liable.
Whatever the girl’s faults, she is not the problem in this story.
Dear Kay,
So . . . what about the grown adult man? How horny was he? How hard did he fight off her pursuits? We all know men love it when young girls flaunt themselves at them, knowing that all men want it. Especially men in the limelight or even those in a uniform (and oh boy are they hot themselves in those uniforms and flaunt . . . why my heart be still!) They don’t care if she’s married or not or if she’s his best friend’s daughter. It’s really sad men in the church are such pimps. All men are pigs.
yep. you are right. both of you. at first i wanted to defend pastor. but after , praying, and reading. I am wrong.
I am not going to get caught up in all of this. it is to big and will suck me in. thats exactly
what satan wants. and precious devotion and prayer time will be forever wasted on this matter (trying to comment on something that I have no place getting involved with. and Jesus doesn’t want me judging). they will both be held accountable before God.
amazing thing is…he will forgive them. just as he forgives me. even when I don’t deserve it. He was way off. and she went there as well. shame on the both of them. I am sad for everyone involved. I apologize for even starting something when I really don’t care to keep it going.
I was out of line. take care.
No problem, Kay. I know emotions over this issue are running high.
You men and women be careful. She is closer than we think. the world is full of young sluts stealing our husbands and sons! Praying for cindy!
You mean stealing pathetic, poor Christian men who have been taught they are helpless creatures unable to withstand sexual temptation? How about teaching them to be accountable for their own sexual behavior? They have a choice, do they not? Or are they so weak that the slightest temptation turns them into sexed crazed maniacs who are unable to control their lust?
What’s it say about the quality of your husbands Kay if by the power of Jesus Christ they cannot withstand the temptations of these “young sluts” to use your terminology?
yes. you are both absolutely right.
absolutely.
Dear Kay,
I want to acknowledge your comment here. Thank you for your response.
I hesitated to comment at all but I spent many years in IFB churches only to find that women too easily defended their beloved pastor’s who were boinking someone who wasn’t their wife or someone who was a minor. The cover-up was awful and by the time I left those churches the dust pile of denial, deceit and lies under the carpet was as high as Mt. Everest.
As well, I found that some of the most prolific misogynists were women themselves. In looking back I found that so many of the women without realizing it were having emotional affairs with the “man of God” or one of the leaders in the church. If you even suggested something was inappropriate they’d cut you to the quick and of course the person who pointed out the problem became the problem.
I along with my husband know what it is like to confront a senior pastor and the chairman of the board with our concerns about his relationship with a married woman that was not his wife and to listen to him not deny it but easily twist it. We resigned our leadership positions as a result of the spiritual abuse that was thrown at us. Five years later that pastor resigned for “health reasons.” The truth is that eventually the adultery was found out by one of the insiders and he had to go. Of course, they thought they had gotten away with it by claiming “health issues.” It didn’t take long for the truth to come out about his affair.
In closing I’d also like to say that in churches like this there are countless silent slaughtered sheep. The walking wounded I call them. This will not be an isolated case of abuse. Churches like this and pastor’s like this have a “can’t talk rule.” The book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse elaborates on this rule. For every incident found out there are countless unreported.
Zoe, thanks for sharing this.
You’re welcome Bruce.
Jack Schaap was a powerful preacher for FBCH but not for God. I dont think his preaching days are over, he will move to another state and start his own church just like Ted Hggard did.
Sadly, I think you are right.
Brother Gibbs speaking at FBC last week.
Notice a totally different style, no nauseating Schaap screaming.
http://www.fbchammond.com/media/videos/