When did America show itself to be a Christian nation? In the 1830′s, during the period in which aboriginal peoples were “removed” from their homelands to accommodate white settlement? At the time of the Dawes Act (1887), when the small reservations that aboriginal peoples had been given were cut up to give to whites? During the 1849 California gold rush, when the population of aboriginal people in California went from 160,000 to 20,000 over a period of twenty years? At the time of the Chinese Exclusion Act (1882), when Chinese people were banned from immigrating to the U.S., and which was not rescinded until WWII, due to the Chinese being our allies against the Japanese? This whole American exceptionalism script makes me so sick. It is narcissism at its absolute worst.
Heh. I used to live in NW Ohio. Lima to be precise. I never saw why thew people up there were so religious. It’s a crappy little town with big city problems. You’d think they’d all be a little hot that “God” forgot about them or something.
I moved back home. Where I live is still pretty religious but a lot less crappy. And it’s closer to a big city so I can have some fun on the weekends outside wasting my life at the movie theater watching Michael Bay rape my childhood again.
“America was great when it was good … and America was good when it was Christian.”
Did the ‘witches ?????’ of Salem think that the colony was good when it was Christian? Did all the slaves in the South think that America was good when they they were owned by Christians? I am not sure what this lady means by her slogan. Good for whom?
Where is the freedom for women in Conservative churches , same sex people both in the churches and the broader community, people who think and wish to be able to express themselves differently (e.g. atheists in politics)? Shouldn’t they be allowed to be different and to act differently, provided they do not harm others?
Doesn’t proper treatment of others depend on the acknowledgement of our common humanity and our endeavour to treat one another with dignity and respect? This does not depend on believing the bible nor on “believing the bible again” if one’s “spirit is born again”. Doesn’t this lady realize that there is both good and wicked morality in the bible said to be commanded by God? And heaven help you Americans if Dominionist Evangelicals were ever to gain power. This would be the end of all your freedoms. If that were ever to happen, you wouldn’t then be saying America is good now that it is Christian .
Do you think Nancy who wrote the note actually reads this blog? She is probably forbidden from reading anything about Christianity or Atheism on the internet.
I live close to Bruce here in NW Ohio, and you can hardly find anyone who is non-Christian and/or Democratic and/or liberal. (Possible to be a moderate Democrat…) So I find myself with friends who hold political views I detest. And if we get into discussions I try to get them to think with soft answers, although I really want to knock them upside the head. Because the conservative Christian beliefs saturate this area, it is the default of most people. And I find that there are liberal and moderate ideas with my friends, it is just they are used to believing a certain way without question. I spent years questioning my beliefs and thoughts and have arrived at them with a lot of work. (Democrat, left leaning centrist, spiritually very liberal…) My customers think I am a kind, sweet, nice decent person although some of them would be shocked at my political and religious beliefs.
Where I’m going with this is that many, probably the majority of people do not question their beliefs, but accept them because it is easier. I went through a lot of pain to get where I’m at. Most people avoid the pain.
Bruce, I am thankful for the clarity you have given to me for my beliefs. You have caused me to realize that the God I believe in is a good, wonderful force in my life, and is not the Biblical God. My God also loves everyone so I guess that makes me a Universalist (I didn’t realize I was one until I started reading this blog.) Probably not a Christian although I use the liberal Christian label. And I can give up the guilt I feel because I can’t hardly read the Bible, now I realize that is just fine!! Hurray!
I’m a recovering pastor and I’ve heard this “Christian Nation” stuff for years. I don’t doubt that scriptural precepts were looped into the founding documents, and formed the values of many in our beginning stages, but “good?” If that’s true, and carnal, worldly pursuits were outlawed, what was the “Whiskey Rebellion” all about? Uncle Sam levied a tax on whiskey and distillers in order to pay off the national debt. Whiskey? The federal government didn’t outlaw it but rather imposed a tax on it. So, do the “good” people of America ignore the presence of such “spirits” in our society as they claim that America is “good?” And if “good” why wasn’t whiskey (and all other “spirits” outlawed, along with all carnal and worldly pursuits and habits. While i believe strongly in the rule of law, I don’t want to see us go back to the days of the Puritans who imposed a strict morality on society, and required penalties for those who didn’t comply (public pillory in the town square, etc.). Just a thot
OH, Nancy, Nancy, Nancy. Poor delusional dear…certain that she knows the mind and opinions of the Almighty. Oh, how pompous, these “humble” Christians.
You must realize that just because someone is a Christian does not mean that they will always act out what Christ taught, that they will always follow true Christian principles. Their non-Christ like actions and words, their bad choices are to blame, not Christ or Christianity.
When a person is saved they are given a new life, old things pass away and all things become new.
When a person is saved they are immediately indwelt by the Holy Spirit. (God himself)
When a person is saved the Holy Spirit becomes their teacher and guide in all things pertaining to life and godliness.
When a person is saved they have the mind of Christ.
So it would seem that Christians, all Christians should be pillars virtue. After all those who are filled with Spirit (which all Christians are) have the fruit of the Spirit.
Yet, what do we see? We see that Christians are no different than non-Christians. Pray tell, why would anyone want to become a Christian based on what can readily be observed in any church?
If it is God who saves then it is proper and right to blame God when his saving comes up short.
The proof of the bankruptcy of the Christian religion is found in the lives of those who say, I am a Christian. Do they act nobly and virtuously? Sure, but then so do atheists. Personally, I see nothing in Christianity that makes a person a better person. If we can’t look at the product of Christianity, how then can we judge its efficacy?
Interesting that the worst mass murderers in history were Atheist. You’re “lumping” Christians all together which can be very dangerous… How many Christians in this country have you interacted with on a personal level… Christians have the Holy Spirit living in them, leading and guiding them but free will of the individual determines whether or not they follow the Holy Spirit’s guidance. Christians aren’t perfect, nor are they supposed to be…No one does what is right all the time, plain and simple. Holding Christians to a higher level is quite reasonable but many people expect perfection, which never happens and that serves as “proof” to them of the evils of Christianity; all quite convenient, a self-fulfilling prophecy….THIS RESPONSE IS TO BRUCE.
Everything I have said to you is in the Bible, the Bible based on inerrant originals. Your argument is with the Bible, not me. Now you may say that my interpretation is wrong but why should we accept that your interpretation is right and my interpretation is wrong? After all, I can find the interpretation I advanced being believed by various sects throughout the history of Christianity. Again, why should we accept that your interpretation is right and my interpretation is wrong?
I suspect if we added up all the people killed in the name of God, that God would come out as the number one killer. In the Bible we see a vicious God who doesn’t think twice about wiping everyone off the face of the earth. (saved eight)
I hope you don’t have Hitler on your list. He was not an atheist.
Bruce:
I don’t have an issue with the Bible on this or anything and I don’t know what you’re referring to in reference to interpretation; if it’s about the Holy Spirit being Indwelt in believers, there isn’t anything to interpret….I think you are holding Christians to a higher standard ((and I think you should) but I also think you’re doing what many people do, whether consciously or otherwise and that is setting a totally subjective standard that is impossible for anyone to reach. In short, it’s very easy (and convenient) to create the outcome you desire…
I doubt very seriously that God killed more people than the Atheist mass murderers….
I quoted a bunch of verses to support my view. It is evident you disagree with my interpretation of said verses. So, why should we accept your interpretation over mine?
You bet I am holding Christians to a higher standard. I will stop as soon as Christians admit what is readily known by all who dare pay attention to what Christianity produces rather then what they preach. What is known? That Christians are no different from non-Christians. That for all their talk of objective morality they are as immoral and unethical as those they condemn.
Are you willing to admit this? Are you willing to admit that going to Church every Sunday, putting a tithe in the offering, praying, reading the Bible, and doing all the things “devout” Christians do, doesn’t make a lick of difference? There are good and bad Christians just like there are good and bad everyone else.
... Zoe ~
@ Mark Prescott – You might be interested in reading this post.
I read your stories with sadness, that you should abandon the Jesus Who loves and cares for/about you (since He died for you), just because of some religious hypocrites, to the extent of choosing to lose out on heaven. Every Christian (or non-Christian) is accountable to God. Jesus never came to give the world a religion, or Christianity. There is no way Christianity can ever make a person a better human, except on the surface, perhaps. It’s the same with all other religions, including atheism.
I can empathize with you. But isn’t it a huge loss by rejecting Jesus and heaven, in exchange for the devil and hell, all on account of many “ugly” Christians? Why should we choose to miss heaven just because of some hypocrites in Churches? Didn’t Jesus say He would sort out the tares from the wheat at harvest time? Jesus did say to let them grow together, until He comes again (His second coming), right?. We are not accountable to the hypocrites, or even to the godly. We are accountable to Jesus. How we live our lives depends on our relationship with Christ, and not on what others say about us, I’m sure. I believe Jesus cares about us much more than the lilies of the field, or the sparrows in the air.
I’m not a church leader but I’ve been a Christian for almost 40 years. I was a skeptic till I had a dramatic encounter with the Living Christ in December, 1973. I have gone through lots of hardship in life, been misunderstood lots of times and been hurled all kinds of accusations by both believers and unbelievers of Jesus, in the last 40 years. My faith in Christ remains stable, despite a lot of painful injustices. I am not a believer/disciple of Jesus because I converted to Christianity. I never converted to a religion called Christianity. I “met” Christ on “my road to Damascus”, so to speak.
All I need to read is the bible. All you and I need to do is to believe in Jesus Christ and his Gospel.All you and I have to do confess our sinfullness to him and repent of it.And all you have to do is believe and trust in Him and Him only ! Will YOU ? I have ! Praise GOD ! Thank JESUS ! Adolf
I have read the Bible through dozens and dozens of times. I have preached expositionally through many of the books of the Bible. I spent most of my adult life reading, studying the Bible. Did you bother to check out who the writer of this blog is before you mindlessly gave up a testimony for Jesus?
Bruce
Chikirin
You’re either the light of the world, or you aren’t.
The bible says there is a supernatural being living inside Christians, but where is the proof? The lives of Christians do more to refute the claim than to prove it.
I know lots of nice Christians, but the bible promised much more than that – God-like wisdom, God-like loving-kindness, God-like longsuffering and meekness, etc.
If the Christian demonstrates anything less than that, then I’m justified in judging the claim of a “Holy Spirit” living inside said Christians to be untrue. Anyone claiming to have God living in them should not be surprised when their lives are held to a higher standard and judged accordingly, per Jesus himself.
Christians need to count the cost. One cost is being judged by the world. Jesus said the world has every right to judge the believer and his testimony.
I remember many sermons in different churches to the effect that it is impossible to expect too much of God, that we shouldn’t limit God, that we shouldn’t put him in a box.
According to the new testament, God lives in Christians, so anything I would expect of God or Jesus, I am correct to expect the same of a Christian.
I wouldn’t argue with much of what you said, except I would not expect the same from a Christian as I would from Jesus, simply because Christians are supposed to strive to be like God, but they aren’t God and never will be… I would expect to see the values of Christ lived out in a person on a regular basis, but all people, incluiding Christians stumble, and fall.
I think you are forgetting one small but VERY important detail. When someone is saved,the Holy Spirit indeed lives inside them forever, guiding them and leading them throughout their lives, and then comes the problem (or potential problem); free will kicks in and the person makes choices to follow or not follow the guidance and leadership of The Holy Spirit. As someone can have a disease lying dormant inside them, so someone can allow the Holy Spirit to remain dormant. Once saved, The Holy Spirit never leaves a believer, but the person determines how active they allow the Holy Spirit to be in their lives…. It ain’t The Holy Spirit’s fault it is the person’s fault…
Truly no disrespect intended, but your comments seems to be that of a “Holier than thou Atheist.” Free will isn’t an excuse, it’s a fact for all, including Atheists. Christianity does not teach or condone anything bad or evil; is it really that difficult to place the blame where it belongs, on individuals and not on Christianty….
Are you now a psychiatrist and able to judge my motives, Mark?
I don’t believe in free-will (with a few caveats) and I think the Bible supports such a view. God is Sovereign and he controls everything. Nothing happens that he does not permit. I could give countless verses to support this claim. Now, I don’t believe God is anything since God doesn’t exist but a case can be made from the Bible that humans do not have free will.
Christianity purports to offer new life. It says it is above the fray, above the human condition. (because of what Jesus did and through the indwelling of the Spirit.) It is proper and right to judge what Christianity produces.
Correct. But whenever you judge the tree from which the fruit falls people scream and suggest that just because the fruit is bad doesn’t mean the tree is bad. Back to the real world…if I had a tree that year after year produced rotten fruit I would git rid of the tree. Even the Bible says this.
Mark Prescott
Bruce:
My apology; The “Holier than thou Atheist” comment WAS NOT directed at your post, it was directed at Chikirin’s 12:39 pm post (I’m having a difficult time figuring out exactly where to reply to specific posts…)
I think, (my opinion) it is quite evident people have free will. The fact that God knows what people are going to do and allows it doesn’t mean He caused it or controlled it. If one’s child is walking to the pet’s water bowl and the parent KNOWS the child will tip the bowl over but allows it, that doesn’t mean the parent caused it (I think we’re getting into Calvinism here).
I also think MANY people fail to take into account all the many good things Christians do in this Country and around the world. (Actually, I think many people simply set a level of standard for Christians that is subjective and unreasonable; if a Christian does a good deed, so what, they’re supposed to, and if a Christian messes up, as ALL human beings do, it is all to cconventient for that to be proof of the evils of Christianity, to some people. (I think many Non-Atheists do the same thing in reference to Atheists. I’m only speaking for myself, but the ONLY thing I assume about Atheists is that they don’t believe in God).
The Church I belong to clothes and feeds the homeless, and that includes providing funds, as well as clothes and food and feeding them in the homeless shelters. They have tremendous mentoring programs for pre-school, K-12 grade, young adults, singles, men, women, couples, older adults, etc. Every Summer the Youth Group takes a week and participates in Habitat for Humanity, supplying physical labor and funds to build and improve homes of people that can’t afford or aren’t able to do so on their own (there is no requirement that those receiving any labor, funds, food, clothing, etc. are members of our Church, or any church, and there is no requirement they are Christian…. Several times a year the Church sends a team of Church members to the jungles of Peru (and I indeed mean jungles, where they sometimes have to be escorted by personnel with fully automatic weapons because of the dangers).
The funds come from Church members, and the rest of it comes from those going on the trip. There is a significant Compassion Fund that is funded by Church members that is continuously running low because very significant amounts of money are given to those in need, again without any requirement whatsoever that those receiving the funds are Church members OR Christians.
Your experiences with Christians overall may not be very positive, but we all know the dangers of generalizing.
These good deeds aren’t often publicized for various reasons, to include the fact that my Church doesn’t do it for publicity, and there isn’t any doubt in my mind, this is the worst “Christian bashing” time in the history of this Country.
If one sits back and waits for Christian(s) to “mess up,” they won’t have to wait long, because Christians are human; they ARE NOT God. I genuinely think many Non-Christians sit back and wait for Christians to mess up and use it to prove what they choose to believe. I think many Non-Atheists do this with Atheists as well….
This next paragraph IS NOT intended to be sarcastic, but I have to ask it because I am quite curious:
You mentioned you were a pastor for 25 years; am I to assume that you were an absolute pillar of the community, that if asked, everyone you encountered during your time as a Christian would give testimony of your perfect and sinless life?
I know you think it is evident people have freewill but the Bible (in my opinion, coming from a Calvinistic persuasion) and neuroscience seem to suggest otherwise.
I am willing to grant that Christian groups and churches do good when they put all their cards on the table. I want to see their budget. How much of their income actually goes towards helping people outside of the church? How much money is spent making the fat sheep fatter? (programs, etc) If the church is in a town with numerous other churches and they take the commands of Christ seriously, why not merge with another church, drastically cut the overhead, and then spend the extra money on the poor and marginalized. So…show me the numbers and I will believe. So far, in almost four years, not one Christian has taken me up on this. The reason? They know I am right. Most churches spend 80-80 percent of their income on self-perpetuation. Churches need to be honest about this and they are not.
In November the vast majority of Evangelicals will vote for Republican Mitt Romney. They will note for a man and a party that is at war with the gospel and the teachings of Jesus. Again, when we do reach the point, Mark, where we can say the tree is corrupt based on the fruit it produces?
I don’t think I have ever said my experiences with Christianity were not positive.I saw many good things in Christianity. However, I have traveled far and wide within Christianity and I think I have a pretty good idea of the lay of the land. I continue to pay attention to what is going on in Christianity. I am quite willing to give a positive nod to good when I see it but, for the most part, American Christianity is failing in its mission and it is the single biggest maker of atheists.
No one would ever have said I was perfect,Mark, and that’s my point. I was a devoted, committed, sold-out, consecrated, sanctified, Holy Spirit filled, Holy Spirit led, Bible reading, praying, tithing, witnessing, separated, Christian and pastor and I was no different than the people I was trying to evangelize. The salvation that Christianity offers fixes no one. It can’t. People are people and, for the most part, we are an admixture of good and bad. Christian, Atheist, Mormon, Buddhist…not a lick of difference.
I contend if you take away fear, hell, and judgment out of the Christian religion churches would be empty in a matter of weeks. As long as people are promised heaven and threatened with hell the pews will be full.
Again, I know you don’t agree and we can go round and round the Mulberry tree but we will end up right where we are.
Mark Prescott
Bruce:
I think I understand what you’re saying (although I can be pretty dense sometimes), but I don’t think having the Holy Spirit in your heart is supposed to “fix” anything. Following Christ, from my own experience, gives genuine purpose and meaning to me in a nutty world (I could describe it much better but I try not to use that kind of language, mainly because it is offensive to God).
Following Christ is a journey, not a destination…
P.S. I don’t mind going around and around the Mulberry Bush as long as there are some fresh mulberries to eat….
I’m a liberal/progressive Christian but I wonder whether there is any empirical evidence to suggest that (on average) Christians lead more compassionate lifestyles than non Christians. I doubt whether we do.
There are compassionate people among Muslims, Jews , Buddhists, Hindus and people of other faiths as well as among agnostics and atheists, just as there are people who are not.
True, we are all flawed human beings. We are all capable of great good and great evil. Yet if Evangelical Christianity is true, should there not be an observable difference (on average) between Evangelical Christians and the rest of us? Should we not see more compassion displayed by Evangelicals than the rest of us, because Evangelicals claim that the Holy Spirit of compassion dwells within them, empowers them, leads and guides them (if they are “walking in the Spirit”) , equips them and encourages them to FOLLOW Jesus.
What proportion of Evangelical Christians actually PRACTISE the Sermon on the Mount on a day-to day basis? What proportion of Evangelicals actually champion the poor and the needy and are willing to forgo a middle class lifestyle for the sake of the other? What proportion of Evagelicals actually promote Jesus vision of shalom: peace well-being, harmony and wholeness?
You and your church might be doing a very good job, but why are so many American Evangelicals pro-rich, and pro-war rather than actually following Jesus’ servant model of compassionate healing?
And if we (on average) live no more compassionate lifestyles than non Christians, then I consider that it behoves us as Cnristians to be gentle, understanding and tender hearted towards non Christians. After all, we might be WRONG.
You raise some very interesting and important points. I don’t know that any such empirical evidence exists, but I would suggest just as is the case of every other religion, as well as Atheists and Agnostics, there are many Christians that are apathetic for one reason or another, but that is a decision they make; Christianity doesn’t make anyone apathetic, or hateful, or mean for that matter….
I aso think in the current culture of this Country (and even more so in the world), good deeds of Christians are either “blown off,” as “that’s what Christians are supposed to do,” or they are simply ignored. It is politically correct in this County, in my opinion, to “trash” Christians. I think too often the good is ignored and many wait, carefully watching for Christians to make mistakes and when that happens (and it will) because Christians ARE IN FACT HUMAN BEINGS, that is “proof” to others that Christianity is evil.
I can only speak from my experience; I know many apathetic Christians, but I also know MANY genuinely, bona fide Christians who in their words and actions truly strive to be Christ like in all they do and say.
Of course we should be kind and gentle hearted to non-Christians as that is what Christ taught.
I only spend my time on a web site like this to truly communicate what Christ has done for me (and If I can get it, anybody can get it). He turned my life upside down, although the truth be told, He turned it right side up. I’m on a web site where MOST people completely oppose my beliefs and that’s okay, because I am called to spread the Good News. I don’t get paid for it, I don’t do it out of boredom (I never get bored), I don’t get paid vacation for t, nor a new car, or bigger house, or a bigger retirement check (and I certainly don’t get any more money in my social security check), I do it because I know I am genuinely trying to follow God’s Word, plain and simple.
Blessings,
Mark
Mark Prescott
Bruce:
I indeed understand I overanalyzed the metaphor, but that is for the purpose of making a point that I think way too many people miss, so if you would be so kind, tell me if you agree with this, and if not why not:
Being a Christian does not make one a robot. I think we are both in agreement that according to the Bible, from the moment one is saved, the Holy Spirit dwells within them. The extent to which one embraces the Holy Spirit and puts forth effort toactively FOLLOW the Holy Spirit’s guidance and leadership is different from one person to the next, and that is the point I am trying to make.
Christians “backslide,” as this is expected because we are human beings, but many people seem to be unable or unwilling to accept that.
No one can present a reasonable case that Christianity is bad or evil….
Have you ever seen the bumper sticker, “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven.”
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth…
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
All of these verses are from I John. I am not sure how conversant you are in NT Greek (and I am not very) but the words (imperatives) used in these verses make it clear that if someone says they are a Christian their life must be ____________. (as does the verses about the fruit of the Spirit)
You speak of Christianity as a divine ideal, that which frail, sinful people should or do aspire to. Christians aren’t perfect you say but how does that square with these verses?
Now I agree with you completely…shock! Christians aren’t perfect. However, our discussion began when you asserted that the Bible is a supernatural, inerrant book and that we should take what it says literally unless it is clear from the context that we should do otherwise. These verses are clear, and if they are clear it is evident that there is no such thing as a real Christian.
You have several options. You can try to explain these verses (and believe me I know every explanation that can be made. Heard them, made them) or you can admit that these verses are wrong, that they present some form of Christian perfectionism that exists only in the mind of whoever wrote 1 John.
All my interaction with you has been to this end…to show that Christians, for all their talk about the Bible, God, morality, etc, etc, etc, are no different than the people they are trying to convert.
Why would I want to become a Christian? What does Christianity have to offer me? Yes, it promises a home in Heaven and a perfect, pain free hereafter… but what does it offer me in this life? Outside of great fellowship meals, I can not think of one thing that Christianity offers me. I have no fear of hell, no guilt over “sins”, and I doubt there is life after death. So why would I want to become a Christian? What is the compelling case that can be made to the readers of this blog that Jesus is worthy of our allegiance and that Christianity would add value to our lives?
Again, I am judging the tree by the fruit I see. Yes, I see a nice, ripe, juicy apple here and there. Commendable to be sure. But, for the most part, all I see is rotting fruit. There is nothing that commends Christianity to me.
Mark Prescott
Bruce:
All of this speaks to truly having a changed heart; a heart changed by Christ. It doesn’t mean that Christians won’t sin, but that if their hearts are changed, their sinful nature will be replaced by a righteous nature (one will still sin, even as those unsaved and still born of a sinful nature don’t sin ALL the time).
As far as what Christianity has to offer, much of that has to do with what one puts into it. A passionate Christian, one truly seeking to know and follow God’s Word and Will and put Him first in their life, in my own personal experience as well as experiences of others I interact with (some of whom I have known for a very long time), brings great joy, but only if one has a true foundation of faith and trust. Personally, I cannot wrap myself around anything significant without knowing that there is a solid basis for it (that was my 100 or so hours researching Christ’s Resurrection).
That is why the New Testament speaks to loving the Lord your God with all your heart, all your strength and all your MIND (paraphrasing), as well as I Peter 3:15. Additionally, “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.” (Jeremiah 29:13). The difference in finding Christ and truly putting Him first in your life, having Him as your best friend, trusting and confiding in him, knowing He is always there, is indescribable (again, from my own experience and others I know personally, some of whom I have known for a long time). It is all an issue of the heart…
I think the context in understanding what is written is incredibly important; we must study the writing styles, laws, cultures and customs of the times to be able to understand what was written 2000 years ago, just as today, there are different meanings for the word “Bad,” and “Beast.” If one does not understood the type of writing commonly used at the time, as well as the customs, culture, etc., we will interpet everything from our present understanding.
Even now, if someone says they have a “bad” car the context in which it is said determines our understanding, whether it is a car that is not good, or a “cool, awesome,” car. A new word in today’s circles is “Beast”. If I don’t understand the context, when someone says “that is beast,” I don’t know if it means bad (real beasts aren’t something I find good), or again, “cool or awesome.”
Thanks for your kind response. Whilst there may be some people who will fault Christianity when a Christian fails, I think that what most people looking for is GENUINENESS, not perfection, on the part of Christians.
Over here in Aussie land, most Aussies can spot hypocrisy a mile away. They don’t mind if people are “fair dinkum” (geniune). If a person lives by the Sermon on the Mount most Aussies will respond positively (even when most know nothing of what is contained in it.).
So Aussies are not looking for perfection but genuineness. I would imagine it’s similar in the USA. I find it difficult to believe that genuine Christians are being “trashed”. But I do see why harsh, superior and dogmatic Fundamentalists are not liked.
You seem a pretty genuine guy and seem to be quite open minded. i wish you well on your journey.
Shalom,
John Arthur
Mark Prescott
John:
You make an excellent point and one I evidently haven’t given enough thought to in terms of how others perceive Christians: people are typically accepting of those that are genuine Christians, and in my experience, too many Christians “talk the talk” but don’t “walk the walk,” and that tends to make Christians in general look bad, regardless of whether that’s reasonable or not….
rickray1
After reading these comments I have concluded that it is GRRRRRRReat to be a Canadian. I’ll bet some Swede is saying, It’s even greater to be a SSSWWEEEEEEde !
Bruce:
I COMPLETELY agree with you that there are good and bad Christians. My point is that is the “fault” (whether one is a good or bad Christian) of the individual;, it IS NOT because of Christianity.
When Atheists do bad things is it because they make bad choices or is it because they are Atheist?
Atheism is not a religion, a belief system. It has not creed, no divine text, no clergy, or any of the other trappings of a religion. Atheism does not say, “become an atheist and your life will be transformed.” Atheism is one simple fact:the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.
Christianity purports to offer redemption, forgiveness, and transformation. It sets itself against anyone and everyone who is not a Christian. It promises heaven for the saved and hell for the lost.
With this in mind, it is proper and right, to ask whether or not Christianity delivers what it says it will.
Chevrolet is a car manufacturer. Suppose they produce a line of cars that are terrible in quality. prone to breakdown. You would have me blame the car and not Chevrolet. I contend the producer (manufacturer) should be held accountable for the product they produce. So it is with Christianity. They must be held accountable for the product they produce OR admit that the product they produce is not any different than any other product.
I’m not at all sure I agree with the analogy; the Chevrolet automobile doesn’t have any “say” or control over how it turns out, how it is made. It is at the mercy of those making it; devoid of emotions, thoughts, ideas, feelings, understanding, passion, choices, etc. God could make everyone follow him if He chose to, but that would be pointless..
Christianity does OFFER redemption, forgiveness and transformation FOR THOSE THAT ACCEPT IT….A choice the Chevrolet doesn’t have; how the Chevrolet turns out is soley in the hands of those making it..
I also don’t see Christianity as setting itself against anyone or everyone that is not a Christian, as it seeks to save those who are lost. There aren’t ANY Christian principles that suggest non-believers should be ignored or shunned; quite the opposite…
P.S. Bart Ehrman’s “Misquoting Jesus” should arrive at my house by Wednesday.
Presh.
She’s wrong; Jesus has forsaken you & you’re going to rot in Hell (with me!). Haha!
I was born again. Then again. Once again. Hasn’t taken so I guess I’m a goner and will be with the other forsaken peeps. See you in Hell, Steve:)
In my best Dr. Smith voice, “Oh, the pain… the pain…”
When did America show itself to be a Christian nation? In the 1830′s, during the period in which aboriginal peoples were “removed” from their homelands to accommodate white settlement? At the time of the Dawes Act (1887), when the small reservations that aboriginal peoples had been given were cut up to give to whites? During the 1849 California gold rush, when the population of aboriginal people in California went from 160,000 to 20,000 over a period of twenty years? At the time of the Chinese Exclusion Act (1882), when Chinese people were banned from immigrating to the U.S., and which was not rescinded until WWII, due to the Chinese being our allies against the Japanese? This whole American exceptionalism script makes me so sick. It is narcissism at its absolute worst.
Jesus still loves you? What a clingy guy. Jesus needs to admit that the relationship is over and move on with his life.
Heh. I used to live in NW Ohio. Lima to be precise. I never saw why thew people up there were so religious. It’s a crappy little town with big city problems. You’d think they’d all be a little hot that “God” forgot about them or something.
I moved back home. Where I live is still pretty religious but a lot less crappy. And it’s closer to a big city so I can have some fun on the weekends outside wasting my life at the movie theater watching Michael Bay rape my childhood again.
Evil Lydia would write back with a list of reasons why she should convert to Scientology.
(Which actually wouldn’t be a very nice thing to do at all. That’s why Evil Lydia doesn’t get out very often.
)
That is just wicked, and very funny!
Heaven for the ambiance, Hell for the company.
See you there.
Hi Bruce,
“America was great when it was good … and America was good when it was Christian.”
Did the ‘witches ?????’ of Salem think that the colony was good when it was Christian? Did all the slaves in the South think that America was good when they they were owned by Christians? I am not sure what this lady means by her slogan. Good for whom?
Where is the freedom for women in Conservative churches , same sex people both in the churches and the broader community, people who think and wish to be able to express themselves differently (e.g. atheists in politics)? Shouldn’t they be allowed to be different and to act differently, provided they do not harm others?
Doesn’t proper treatment of others depend on the acknowledgement of our common humanity and our endeavour to treat one another with dignity and respect? This does not depend on believing the bible nor on “believing the bible again” if one’s “spirit is born again”. Doesn’t this lady realize that there is both good and wicked morality in the bible said to be commanded by God? And heaven help you Americans if Dominionist Evangelicals were ever to gain power. This would be the end of all your freedoms. If that were ever to happen, you wouldn’t then be saying America is good now that it is Christian .
Shalom,
John Arthur
Do you think Nancy who wrote the note actually reads this blog? She is probably forbidden from reading anything about Christianity or Atheism on the internet.
I live close to Bruce here in NW Ohio, and you can hardly find anyone who is non-Christian and/or Democratic and/or liberal. (Possible to be a moderate Democrat…) So I find myself with friends who hold political views I detest. And if we get into discussions I try to get them to think with soft answers, although I really want to knock them upside the head. Because the conservative Christian beliefs saturate this area, it is the default of most people. And I find that there are liberal and moderate ideas with my friends, it is just they are used to believing a certain way without question. I spent years questioning my beliefs and thoughts and have arrived at them with a lot of work. (Democrat, left leaning centrist, spiritually very liberal…) My customers think I am a kind, sweet, nice decent person although some of them would be shocked at my political and religious beliefs.
Where I’m going with this is that many, probably the majority of people do not question their beliefs, but accept them because it is easier. I went through a lot of pain to get where I’m at. Most people avoid the pain.
Bruce, I am thankful for the clarity you have given to me for my beliefs. You have caused me to realize that the God I believe in is a good, wonderful force in my life, and is not the Biblical God. My God also loves everyone so I guess that makes me a Universalist (I didn’t realize I was one until I started reading this blog.) Probably not a Christian although I use the liberal Christian label. And I can give up the guilt I feel because I can’t hardly read the Bible, now I realize that is just fine!! Hurray!
Someone stuck some Tony Alamo Ministries literature under my windshield wiper yesterday while I was in the store.
I’m a recovering pastor and I’ve heard this “Christian Nation” stuff for years. I don’t doubt that scriptural precepts were looped into the founding documents, and formed the values of many in our beginning stages, but “good?” If that’s true, and carnal, worldly pursuits were outlawed, what was the “Whiskey Rebellion” all about? Uncle Sam levied a tax on whiskey and distillers in order to pay off the national debt. Whiskey? The federal government didn’t outlaw it but rather imposed a tax on it. So, do the “good” people of America ignore the presence of such “spirits” in our society as they claim that America is “good?” And if “good” why wasn’t whiskey (and all other “spirits” outlawed, along with all carnal and worldly pursuits and habits. While i believe strongly in the rule of law, I don’t want to see us go back to the days of the Puritans who imposed a strict morality on society, and required penalties for those who didn’t comply (public pillory in the town square, etc.). Just a thot
Maybe I can believe the bible when I’m born again, but I’ll never understand the bible.
Bruce
As a Reformed Christian I am confident that God will not let you go.
see http://www.evangelicalinclusivism.com
Still your friend
bill
OH, Nancy, Nancy, Nancy. Poor delusional dear…certain that she knows the mind and opinions of the Almighty. Oh, how pompous, these “humble” Christians.
You must realize that just because someone is a Christian does not mean that they will always act out what Christ taught, that they will always follow true Christian principles. Their non-Christ like actions and words, their bad choices are to blame, not Christ or Christianity.
Let’s see here:
When a person is saved they are given a new life, old things pass away and all things become new.
When a person is saved they are immediately indwelt by the Holy Spirit. (God himself)
When a person is saved the Holy Spirit becomes their teacher and guide in all things pertaining to life and godliness.
When a person is saved they have the mind of Christ.
So it would seem that Christians, all Christians should be pillars virtue. After all those who are filled with Spirit (which all Christians are) have the fruit of the Spirit.
Yet, what do we see? We see that Christians are no different than non-Christians. Pray tell, why would anyone want to become a Christian based on what can readily be observed in any church?
If it is God who saves then it is proper and right to blame God when his saving comes up short.
The proof of the bankruptcy of the Christian religion is found in the lives of those who say, I am a Christian. Do they act nobly and virtuously? Sure, but then so do atheists. Personally, I see nothing in Christianity that makes a person a better person. If we can’t look at the product of Christianity, how then can we judge its efficacy?
Interesting that the worst mass murderers in history were Atheist. You’re “lumping” Christians all together which can be very dangerous… How many Christians in this country have you interacted with on a personal level… Christians have the Holy Spirit living in them, leading and guiding them but free will of the individual determines whether or not they follow the Holy Spirit’s guidance. Christians aren’t perfect, nor are they supposed to be…No one does what is right all the time, plain and simple. Holding Christians to a higher level is quite reasonable but many people expect perfection, which never happens and that serves as “proof” to them of the evils of Christianity; all quite convenient, a self-fulfilling prophecy….THIS RESPONSE IS TO BRUCE.
Mark,
Everything I have said to you is in the Bible, the Bible based on inerrant originals. Your argument is with the Bible, not me. Now you may say that my interpretation is wrong but why should we accept that your interpretation is right and my interpretation is wrong? After all, I can find the interpretation I advanced being believed by various sects throughout the history of Christianity. Again, why should we accept that your interpretation is right and my interpretation is wrong?
I suspect if we added up all the people killed in the name of God, that God would come out as the number one killer. In the Bible we see a vicious God who doesn’t think twice about wiping everyone off the face of the earth. (saved eight)
I hope you don’t have Hitler on your list. He was not an atheist.
Bruce
Bruce:
I don’t have an issue with the Bible on this or anything and I don’t know what you’re referring to in reference to interpretation; if it’s about the Holy Spirit being Indwelt in believers, there isn’t anything to interpret….I think you are holding Christians to a higher standard ((and I think you should) but I also think you’re doing what many people do, whether consciously or otherwise and that is setting a totally subjective standard that is impossible for anyone to reach. In short, it’s very easy (and convenient) to create the outcome you desire…
I doubt very seriously that God killed more people than the Atheist mass murderers….
Why did God kill or command people to be killed?
I quoted a bunch of verses to support my view. It is evident you disagree with my interpretation of said verses. So, why should we accept your interpretation over mine?
You bet I am holding Christians to a higher standard. I will stop as soon as Christians admit what is readily known by all who dare pay attention to what Christianity produces rather then what they preach. What is known? That Christians are no different from non-Christians. That for all their talk of objective morality they are as immoral and unethical as those they condemn.
Are you willing to admit this? Are you willing to admit that going to Church every Sunday, putting a tithe in the offering, praying, reading the Bible, and doing all the things “devout” Christians do, doesn’t make a lick of difference? There are good and bad Christians just like there are good and bad everyone else.
@ Mark Prescott – You might be interested in reading this post.
http://www.skepticblogs.com/azatheist/2012/09/04/the-cause-of-the-20th-century-atrocities-was-not-atheism/
Bruce,
I read your stories with sadness, that you should abandon the Jesus Who loves and cares for/about you (since He died for you), just because of some religious hypocrites, to the extent of choosing to lose out on heaven. Every Christian (or non-Christian) is accountable to God. Jesus never came to give the world a religion, or Christianity. There is no way Christianity can ever make a person a better human, except on the surface, perhaps. It’s the same with all other religions, including atheism.
I can empathize with you. But isn’t it a huge loss by rejecting Jesus and heaven, in exchange for the devil and hell, all on account of many “ugly” Christians? Why should we choose to miss heaven just because of some hypocrites in Churches? Didn’t Jesus say He would sort out the tares from the wheat at harvest time? Jesus did say to let them grow together, until He comes again (His second coming), right?. We are not accountable to the hypocrites, or even to the godly. We are accountable to Jesus. How we live our lives depends on our relationship with Christ, and not on what others say about us, I’m sure. I believe Jesus cares about us much more than the lilies of the field, or the sparrows in the air.
I’m not a church leader but I’ve been a Christian for almost 40 years. I was a skeptic till I had a dramatic encounter with the Living Christ in December, 1973. I have gone through lots of hardship in life, been misunderstood lots of times and been hurled all kinds of accusations by both believers and unbelievers of Jesus, in the last 40 years. My faith in Christ remains stable, despite a lot of painful injustices. I am not a believer/disciple of Jesus because I converted to Christianity. I never converted to a religion called Christianity. I “met” Christ on “my road to Damascus”, so to speak.
Hope my sharing helps.
God bless!
You need to read http://brucegerencser.net/series/my-journey-eternity-here/
Then we will talk.
All I need to read is the bible. All you and I need to do is to believe in Jesus Christ and his Gospel.All you and I have to do confess our sinfullness to him and repent of it.And all you have to do is believe and trust in Him and Him only ! Will YOU ? I have ! Praise GOD ! Thank JESUS ! Adolf
Hey Adolph,
I have read the Bible through dozens and dozens of times. I have preached expositionally through many of the books of the Bible. I spent most of my adult life reading, studying the Bible. Did you bother to check out who the writer of this blog is before you mindlessly gave up a testimony for Jesus?
Bruce
You’re either the light of the world, or you aren’t.
The bible says there is a supernatural being living inside Christians, but where is the proof? The lives of Christians do more to refute the claim than to prove it.
I know lots of nice Christians, but the bible promised much more than that – God-like wisdom, God-like loving-kindness, God-like longsuffering and meekness, etc.
If the Christian demonstrates anything less than that, then I’m justified in judging the claim of a “Holy Spirit” living inside said Christians to be untrue. Anyone claiming to have God living in them should not be surprised when their lives are held to a higher standard and judged accordingly, per Jesus himself.
Christians need to count the cost. One cost is being judged by the world. Jesus said the world has every right to judge the believer and his testimony.
I remember many sermons in different churches to the effect that it is impossible to expect too much of God, that we shouldn’t limit God, that we shouldn’t put him in a box.
According to the new testament, God lives in Christians, so anything I would expect of God or Jesus, I am correct to expect the same of a Christian.
I wouldn’t argue with much of what you said, except I would not expect the same from a Christian as I would from Jesus, simply because Christians are supposed to strive to be like God, but they aren’t God and never will be… I would expect to see the values of Christ lived out in a person on a regular basis, but all people, incluiding Christians stumble, and fall.
I think you are forgetting one small but VERY important detail. When someone is saved,the Holy Spirit indeed lives inside them forever, guiding them and leading them throughout their lives, and then comes the problem (or potential problem); free will kicks in and the person makes choices to follow or not follow the guidance and leadership of The Holy Spirit. As someone can have a disease lying dormant inside them, so someone can allow the Holy Spirit to remain dormant. Once saved, The Holy Spirit never leaves a believer, but the person determines how active they allow the Holy Spirit to be in their lives…. It ain’t The Holy Spirit’s fault it is the person’s fault…
So…
1. Jesus said Christians would do greater things than he, and people would know them by their love.
2. Despite this, even the Christians commenting here acknowledge that this is not happening today.
3. Excuses for why this isn’t happening – freewill, cessation of the gifts, etc.
So it seems that either Jesus’s promises have been put on indefinite hold for some strange reason, or it’s all baloney.
Truly no disrespect intended, but your comments seems to be that of a “Holier than thou Atheist.” Free will isn’t an excuse, it’s a fact for all, including Atheists. Christianity does not teach or condone anything bad or evil; is it really that difficult to place the blame where it belongs, on individuals and not on Christianty….
Are you now a psychiatrist and able to judge my motives, Mark?
I don’t believe in free-will (with a few caveats) and I think the Bible supports such a view. God is Sovereign and he controls everything. Nothing happens that he does not permit. I could give countless verses to support this claim. Now, I don’t believe God is anything since God doesn’t exist but a case can be made from the Bible that humans do not have free will.
Christianity purports to offer new life. It says it is above the fray, above the human condition. (because of what Jesus did and through the indwelling of the Spirit.) It is proper and right to judge what Christianity produces.
Correct. But whenever you judge the tree from which the fruit falls people scream and suggest that just because the fruit is bad doesn’t mean the tree is bad. Back to the real world…if I had a tree that year after year produced rotten fruit I would git rid of the tree. Even the Bible says this.
Bruce:
My apology; The “Holier than thou Atheist” comment WAS NOT directed at your post, it was directed at Chikirin’s 12:39 pm post (I’m having a difficult time figuring out exactly where to reply to specific posts…)
I think, (my opinion) it is quite evident people have free will. The fact that God knows what people are going to do and allows it doesn’t mean He caused it or controlled it. If one’s child is walking to the pet’s water bowl and the parent KNOWS the child will tip the bowl over but allows it, that doesn’t mean the parent caused it (I think we’re getting into Calvinism here).
I also think MANY people fail to take into account all the many good things Christians do in this Country and around the world. (Actually, I think many people simply set a level of standard for Christians that is subjective and unreasonable; if a Christian does a good deed, so what, they’re supposed to, and if a Christian messes up, as ALL human beings do, it is all to cconventient for that to be proof of the evils of Christianity, to some people. (I think many Non-Atheists do the same thing in reference to Atheists. I’m only speaking for myself, but the ONLY thing I assume about Atheists is that they don’t believe in God).
The Church I belong to clothes and feeds the homeless, and that includes providing funds, as well as clothes and food and feeding them in the homeless shelters. They have tremendous mentoring programs for pre-school, K-12 grade, young adults, singles, men, women, couples, older adults, etc. Every Summer the Youth Group takes a week and participates in Habitat for Humanity, supplying physical labor and funds to build and improve homes of people that can’t afford or aren’t able to do so on their own (there is no requirement that those receiving any labor, funds, food, clothing, etc. are members of our Church, or any church, and there is no requirement they are Christian…. Several times a year the Church sends a team of Church members to the jungles of Peru (and I indeed mean jungles, where they sometimes have to be escorted by personnel with fully automatic weapons because of the dangers).
The funds come from Church members, and the rest of it comes from those going on the trip. There is a significant Compassion Fund that is funded by Church members that is continuously running low because very significant amounts of money are given to those in need, again without any requirement whatsoever that those receiving the funds are Church members OR Christians.
Your experiences with Christians overall may not be very positive, but we all know the dangers of generalizing.
These good deeds aren’t often publicized for various reasons, to include the fact that my Church doesn’t do it for publicity, and there isn’t any doubt in my mind, this is the worst “Christian bashing” time in the history of this Country.
If one sits back and waits for Christian(s) to “mess up,” they won’t have to wait long, because Christians are human; they ARE NOT God. I genuinely think many Non-Christians sit back and wait for Christians to mess up and use it to prove what they choose to believe. I think many Non-Atheists do this with Atheists as well….
This next paragraph IS NOT intended to be sarcastic, but I have to ask it because I am quite curious:
You mentioned you were a pastor for 25 years; am I to assume that you were an absolute pillar of the community, that if asked, everyone you encountered during your time as a Christian would give testimony of your perfect and sinless life?
I know you think it is evident people have freewill but the Bible (in my opinion, coming from a Calvinistic persuasion) and neuroscience seem to suggest otherwise.
I am willing to grant that Christian groups and churches do good when they put all their cards on the table. I want to see their budget. How much of their income actually goes towards helping people outside of the church? How much money is spent making the fat sheep fatter? (programs, etc) If the church is in a town with numerous other churches and they take the commands of Christ seriously, why not merge with another church, drastically cut the overhead, and then spend the extra money on the poor and marginalized. So…show me the numbers and I will believe. So far, in almost four years, not one Christian has taken me up on this. The reason? They know I am right. Most churches spend 80-80 percent of their income on self-perpetuation. Churches need to be honest about this and they are not.
In November the vast majority of Evangelicals will vote for Republican Mitt Romney. They will note for a man and a party that is at war with the gospel and the teachings of Jesus. Again, when we do reach the point, Mark, where we can say the tree is corrupt based on the fruit it produces?
I don’t think I have ever said my experiences with Christianity were not positive.I saw many good things in Christianity. However, I have traveled far and wide within Christianity and I think I have a pretty good idea of the lay of the land. I continue to pay attention to what is going on in Christianity. I am quite willing to give a positive nod to good when I see it but, for the most part, American Christianity is failing in its mission and it is the single biggest maker of atheists.
No one would ever have said I was perfect,Mark, and that’s my point. I was a devoted, committed, sold-out, consecrated, sanctified, Holy Spirit filled, Holy Spirit led, Bible reading, praying, tithing, witnessing, separated, Christian and pastor and I was no different than the people I was trying to evangelize. The salvation that Christianity offers fixes no one. It can’t. People are people and, for the most part, we are an admixture of good and bad. Christian, Atheist, Mormon, Buddhist…not a lick of difference.
I contend if you take away fear, hell, and judgment out of the Christian religion churches would be empty in a matter of weeks. As long as people are promised heaven and threatened with hell the pews will be full.
Again, I know you don’t agree and we can go round and round the Mulberry tree but we will end up right where we are.
Bruce:
I think I understand what you’re saying (although I can be pretty dense sometimes), but I don’t think having the Holy Spirit in your heart is supposed to “fix” anything. Following Christ, from my own experience, gives genuine purpose and meaning to me in a nutty world (I could describe it much better but I try not to use that kind of language, mainly because it is offensive to God).
Following Christ is a journey, not a destination…
P.S. I don’t mind going around and around the Mulberry Bush as long as there are some fresh mulberries to eat….
Well said!
Hi Mark,
I’m a liberal/progressive Christian but I wonder whether there is any empirical evidence to suggest that (on average) Christians lead more compassionate lifestyles than non Christians. I doubt whether we do.
There are compassionate people among Muslims, Jews , Buddhists, Hindus and people of other faiths as well as among agnostics and atheists, just as there are people who are not.
True, we are all flawed human beings. We are all capable of great good and great evil. Yet if Evangelical Christianity is true, should there not be an observable difference (on average) between Evangelical Christians and the rest of us? Should we not see more compassion displayed by Evangelicals than the rest of us, because Evangelicals claim that the Holy Spirit of compassion dwells within them, empowers them, leads and guides them (if they are “walking in the Spirit”) , equips them and encourages them to FOLLOW Jesus.
What proportion of Evangelical Christians actually PRACTISE the Sermon on the Mount on a day-to day basis? What proportion of Evangelicals actually champion the poor and the needy and are willing to forgo a middle class lifestyle for the sake of the other? What proportion of Evagelicals actually promote Jesus vision of shalom: peace well-being, harmony and wholeness?
You and your church might be doing a very good job, but why are so many American Evangelicals pro-rich, and pro-war rather than actually following Jesus’ servant model of compassionate healing?
And if we (on average) live no more compassionate lifestyles than non Christians, then I consider that it behoves us as Cnristians to be gentle, understanding and tender hearted towards non Christians. After all, we might be WRONG.
Shalom,
John Arthur
Response to John:
Hello John:
You raise some very interesting and important points. I don’t know that any such empirical evidence exists, but I would suggest just as is the case of every other religion, as well as Atheists and Agnostics, there are many Christians that are apathetic for one reason or another, but that is a decision they make; Christianity doesn’t make anyone apathetic, or hateful, or mean for that matter….
I aso think in the current culture of this Country (and even more so in the world), good deeds of Christians are either “blown off,” as “that’s what Christians are supposed to do,” or they are simply ignored. It is politically correct in this County, in my opinion, to “trash” Christians. I think too often the good is ignored and many wait, carefully watching for Christians to make mistakes and when that happens (and it will) because Christians ARE IN FACT HUMAN BEINGS, that is “proof” to others that Christianity is evil.
I can only speak from my experience; I know many apathetic Christians, but I also know MANY genuinely, bona fide Christians who in their words and actions truly strive to be Christ like in all they do and say.
Of course we should be kind and gentle hearted to non-Christians as that is what Christ taught.
I only spend my time on a web site like this to truly communicate what Christ has done for me (and If I can get it, anybody can get it). He turned my life upside down, although the truth be told, He turned it right side up. I’m on a web site where MOST people completely oppose my beliefs and that’s okay, because I am called to spread the Good News. I don’t get paid for it, I don’t do it out of boredom (I never get bored), I don’t get paid vacation for t, nor a new car, or bigger house, or a bigger retirement check (and I certainly don’t get any more money in my social security check), I do it because I know I am genuinely trying to follow God’s Word, plain and simple.
Blessings,
Mark
Bruce:
I indeed understand I overanalyzed the metaphor, but that is for the purpose of making a point that I think way too many people miss, so if you would be so kind, tell me if you agree with this, and if not why not:
Being a Christian does not make one a robot. I think we are both in agreement that according to the Bible, from the moment one is saved, the Holy Spirit dwells within them. The extent to which one embraces the Holy Spirit and puts forth effort toactively FOLLOW the Holy Spirit’s guidance and leadership is different from one person to the next, and that is the point I am trying to make.
Christians “backslide,” as this is expected because we are human beings, but many people seem to be unable or unwilling to accept that.
No one can present a reasonable case that Christianity is bad or evil….
Have you ever seen the bumper sticker, “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven.”
Regards,
Mark
If we take the Bible as written…
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth…
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
All of these verses are from I John. I am not sure how conversant you are in NT Greek (and I am not very) but the words (imperatives) used in these verses make it clear that if someone says they are a Christian their life must be ____________. (as does the verses about the fruit of the Spirit)
You speak of Christianity as a divine ideal, that which frail, sinful people should or do aspire to. Christians aren’t perfect you say but how does that square with these verses?
Now I agree with you completely…shock! Christians aren’t perfect. However, our discussion began when you asserted that the Bible is a supernatural, inerrant book and that we should take what it says literally unless it is clear from the context that we should do otherwise. These verses are clear, and if they are clear it is evident that there is no such thing as a real Christian.
You have several options. You can try to explain these verses (and believe me I know every explanation that can be made. Heard them, made them) or you can admit that these verses are wrong, that they present some form of Christian perfectionism that exists only in the mind of whoever wrote 1 John.
All my interaction with you has been to this end…to show that Christians, for all their talk about the Bible, God, morality, etc, etc, etc, are no different than the people they are trying to convert.
Why would I want to become a Christian? What does Christianity have to offer me? Yes, it promises a home in Heaven and a perfect, pain free hereafter… but what does it offer me in this life? Outside of great fellowship meals, I can not think of one thing that Christianity offers me. I have no fear of hell, no guilt over “sins”, and I doubt there is life after death. So why would I want to become a Christian? What is the compelling case that can be made to the readers of this blog that Jesus is worthy of our allegiance and that Christianity would add value to our lives?
Again, I am judging the tree by the fruit I see. Yes, I see a nice, ripe, juicy apple here and there. Commendable to be sure. But, for the most part, all I see is rotting fruit. There is nothing that commends Christianity to me.
Bruce:
All of this speaks to truly having a changed heart; a heart changed by Christ. It doesn’t mean that Christians won’t sin, but that if their hearts are changed, their sinful nature will be replaced by a righteous nature (one will still sin, even as those unsaved and still born of a sinful nature don’t sin ALL the time).
As far as what Christianity has to offer, much of that has to do with what one puts into it. A passionate Christian, one truly seeking to know and follow God’s Word and Will and put Him first in their life, in my own personal experience as well as experiences of others I interact with (some of whom I have known for a very long time), brings great joy, but only if one has a true foundation of faith and trust. Personally, I cannot wrap myself around anything significant without knowing that there is a solid basis for it (that was my 100 or so hours researching Christ’s Resurrection).
That is why the New Testament speaks to loving the Lord your God with all your heart, all your strength and all your MIND (paraphrasing), as well as I Peter 3:15. Additionally, “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.” (Jeremiah 29:13). The difference in finding Christ and truly putting Him first in your life, having Him as your best friend, trusting and confiding in him, knowing He is always there, is indescribable (again, from my own experience and others I know personally, some of whom I have known for a long time). It is all an issue of the heart…
I think the context in understanding what is written is incredibly important; we must study the writing styles, laws, cultures and customs of the times to be able to understand what was written 2000 years ago, just as today, there are different meanings for the word “Bad,” and “Beast.” If one does not understood the type of writing commonly used at the time, as well as the customs, culture, etc., we will interpet everything from our present understanding.
Even now, if someone says they have a “bad” car the context in which it is said determines our understanding, whether it is a car that is not good, or a “cool, awesome,” car. A new word in today’s circles is “Beast”. If I don’t understand the context, when someone says “that is beast,” I don’t know if it means bad (real beasts aren’t something I find good), or again, “cool or awesome.”
Regards,
Mark
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your kind response. Whilst there may be some people who will fault Christianity when a Christian fails, I think that what most people looking for is GENUINENESS, not perfection, on the part of Christians.
Over here in Aussie land, most Aussies can spot hypocrisy a mile away. They don’t mind if people are “fair dinkum” (geniune). If a person lives by the Sermon on the Mount most Aussies will respond positively (even when most know nothing of what is contained in it.).
So Aussies are not looking for perfection but genuineness. I would imagine it’s similar in the USA. I find it difficult to believe that genuine Christians are being “trashed”. But I do see why harsh, superior and dogmatic Fundamentalists are not liked.
You seem a pretty genuine guy and seem to be quite open minded. i wish you well on your journey.
Shalom,
John Arthur
John:
You make an excellent point and one I evidently haven’t given enough thought to in terms of how others perceive Christians: people are typically accepting of those that are genuine Christians, and in my experience, too many Christians “talk the talk” but don’t “walk the walk,” and that tends to make Christians in general look bad, regardless of whether that’s reasonable or not….
After reading these comments I have concluded that it is GRRRRRRReat to be a Canadian. I’ll bet some Swede is saying, It’s even greater to be a SSSWWEEEEEEde !
Bruce:
I COMPLETELY agree with you that there are good and bad Christians. My point is that is the “fault” (whether one is a good or bad Christian) of the individual;, it IS NOT because of Christianity.
When Atheists do bad things is it because they make bad choices or is it because they are Atheist?
Mark,
Apples and oranges here.
Atheism is not a religion, a belief system. It has not creed, no divine text, no clergy, or any of the other trappings of a religion. Atheism does not say, “become an atheist and your life will be transformed.” Atheism is one simple fact:the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.
Christianity purports to offer redemption, forgiveness, and transformation. It sets itself against anyone and everyone who is not a Christian. It promises heaven for the saved and hell for the lost.
With this in mind, it is proper and right, to ask whether or not Christianity delivers what it says it will.
Chevrolet is a car manufacturer. Suppose they produce a line of cars that are terrible in quality. prone to breakdown. You would have me blame the car and not Chevrolet. I contend the producer (manufacturer) should be held accountable for the product they produce. So it is with Christianity. They must be held accountable for the product they produce OR admit that the product they produce is not any different than any other product.
Bruce:
I’m not at all sure I agree with the analogy; the Chevrolet automobile doesn’t have any “say” or control over how it turns out, how it is made. It is at the mercy of those making it; devoid of emotions, thoughts, ideas, feelings, understanding, passion, choices, etc. God could make everyone follow him if He chose to, but that would be pointless..
Christianity does OFFER redemption, forgiveness and transformation FOR THOSE THAT ACCEPT IT….A choice the Chevrolet doesn’t have; how the Chevrolet turns out is soley in the hands of those making it..
I also don’t see Christianity as setting itself against anyone or everyone that is not a Christian, as it seeks to save those who are lost. There aren’t ANY Christian principles that suggest non-believers should be ignored or shunned; quite the opposite…
P.S. Bart Ehrman’s “Misquoting Jesus” should arrive at my house by Wednesday.
Regards,
Mark
Way to over analyze the metaphor and miss the point.