One of the questions I'm often asked is, Bruce, what if you are wrong?
This question is most often asked by a Christian and usually the question is followed by some form of Pascal's Wager. Of course the person asking the question doesn't realize the hypocrisy of their question. As a practicing Christian shouldn't they be joining the Muslims,the Buddhists, the Mormons, and every other religion? Shouldn't they want to make sure all their bases are covered?
The Christian wants to hold me to a different standard than they hold themselves to. They are certain the Christian God is the one and only true God. Even then, I would ask, WHICH Christian God? (there are thousands of Christianities.)
Here's the bottom line for me. My belief in God or lack thereof is all about probabilities. I am agnostic on the God question. It is possible that a god of some sort could reveal itself to us at some point in time in history. It is possible but not likely
However when it comes to the Christian God, the Muslim God or any of the other gods that humans currently worship, I am quite confident that these gods are no gods at all. I see no evidence for their existence. Is it possible that these gods exist? I suppose there is a .00000001% chance, but the odds are so infinitesimal it would be a waste of my time to even consider it.
I live without fear of hell or fear of being judged by a God. The hell and judgment that I see on this earth comes from hands of humans not a God. If there is a God, he is definitely AWOL.
Someday I will die and I believe that will be the end of it for me. What if I am wrong? What if there is a God waiting to settle the score with me after I draw my last breath on this earth? I hope he will look at my life and judge me accordingly. I hope he will judge me not by the things that I did or did not believe but by how I lived my life.
The majority of Christians believe that salvation is secured by believing the right things. If not believing Jesus is the virgin born, second person in the Trinity or any of the other sundry doctrines that Christians believe and that ends in my rendition to the Lake of Fire to be tortured day and night by the God who created me, so be it. I have no interest in such a religion and I have no interest in such a god that is only interested in what I believed rather than how I lived.
So if there is a God waiting for me beyond the veil of death I hope he will judge my life by how I lived my life, and if he does so I am confident that everything will be just fine.
And if not, if what I believed is what really mattered, then I guess I will burn in hell with a lot of other good people I know.
“I’ve Converted To EVERY Religion (Just In Case)”
This is a stitch! Made my day, thanks for sharing.
Hilarious!
I had a banker tell me one time, when giving our church a loan, that he liked loaning money to different churches because it allowed him to cover all his bases.
Christians want to apply Pascal’s Wager to everyone else but them.
Hi Bruce,
In the Graeco-Roman world people believed in various gods. no-one today believes in these gods. Large numbers of people today believe in Abrahamic intepretations of god just like large numbers of people in the ancient Greco-Roman world believed in their gods. Majority belief, of course, establishes nothing.
The big problem with the Abrahamic religions is their claim to revelation since the Hebrew bible, the Christian bible and the Koran contradict one another on many topics and have contradictions within themselves. Much of this “revelation” presents god as violent and as supporting violence when he commands it. The ethics is simply abhorent.
There is a lady whose husband I know believes in the literal existence of fairies. This is like saying that there is an invisible teapot flying around the moon. There is simply no empirical evidence. Reason and empirical evidence do not require one to believe in the existence of fairies, invisible teapots, demons, angels and gods.
There is simply no evidence that God personally intervenes in the affairs of humankind. He seems to be an absent god. There is very little social and economic justice in the world and the mess is caused by power inequalities in the world’s social, political and economic structures. It requires human action to rectify these wrongs, not awaiting divine intervention at the second coming.
If you happen to be wrong about the non existence of God, then it is God’s fault for not revealing himself clearly, not our fault for not accepting all the gobbledegook that is in the bible.
Shalom,
John Arthur
There is anecdotal evidence but no statistical evidence.
What if your wrong about the great juju at the bottom of the sea?
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg&w=420&h=315
Well said, bro. As usual, I could’ve written this one, too.
I woke up this morning with this on my mind. What if I’m wrong? Then this thought came rushing into my mind:
What if I am wrong? What if the Abrahamic God exists? This is the same God that drowned his people, used his people to kill people who weren’t his people, led his people into captivity as punishment for not acting like his people, has a system whereby women, children, and any man not considered his can be made a slave. A system whereby a wife who is cheater is apparently infinitely worse than a husband who is a beater. The Bible instructs women and slaves and those bound to intolerable situations to remain in those situations because they will receive some great reward in heaven…another crown to cast a the feet of Jesus. Thus sayeth the Lord.
Tell me, then, what if all these God-believers are wrong? What if there’s no heaven? Then these people will have lived hell on earth and then it’s ended. Nothing. No reward. Just dead. All for belief in something that wasn’t true. And it somehow makes them bad people or ungodly for not continuing to live in that unenviable position?
There’s Pascal’s wager for ya!
Indeed.
Bruce, interesting that you bring this up as it is a question I often encounter too, and one which I always ask Christians to ask of themselves too. I was also hoping to muster up the time to write a blog post about my thoughts on it in the next little while.
One thing that never seems asked of Christians, is for them to ask the same question. What if YOU are wrong? What if there really is no god? What if the whole story of Jesus is false? What if he was just some guy who the Romans executed and that was it? What if every one of your prayers is nothing more than a meditation that only you are hearing? What if this is the only life you will ever have and once you die that is the end of you?
Then what? Then Christians have wasted their one life. They have spent hours a week at social gatherings that discuss fictional literature. They have thrown away all their votes according to the writings of ancient goat herders. They have waster countless hours on their knees just thinking about things while no one listens. They have likely married someone they wouldn’t have married unless they were told to do so subconsciously by their Christian peers. They would have chosen a whole career that fits with their fictional beliefs. AND…they would have spent their entire life hoping for heaven only to never find out that there isn’t one because at the moment you die, you cease to exist and can no longer think or sense anything, just as it was before you were born.
That sounds like a HUGE waste to me, and something that Christians should seriously consider when they ask of others: “What if you’re wrong?”
We have so little substantive discussion about what might be the quality of life outside of a religious context. Many Christians would say that without a Scorekeeper, life would have no purpose. They NEED God to give their lives meaning and the means by which to make ethical decisions. The error is to mistake wanting something for its reality. When someone says, “I will pray for you.” s/he suggests both action and sympathy. Prayer is a specific program of action, which may seem harmless since it appears to cost “nothing,” but in fact, a vast social infrastructure related to prayer exists that costs a LOT of money and represents a major, major commitment of resources by us as a society. So every cancer patient at death should ask why, rather than invest in science, did we build another church, and pay a squadron of pastors’ salaries instead of that of a cancer researcher. The overwhelming evidence is that science is better at curing people than prayer is. To invest one’s money in religion is thus both personally and socially irresponsible. It is not merely that you waste YOUR life, but rather, your actions damage the needs and opportunities of others. Your being right or wrong affects everyone. Here is a child with cancer, what are you going to do? What I’m saying is that if you assert that the fundamental reason for existence is to assert yourself as a moral agent (the basic claim of Christianity), then honesty FORCES you to face the fact that Christianity is the wrong MORAL choice. This is the only conclusion consistent with the premises of your faith, given the facts. Remember that the central existential act of Christianity is to make an intellectual decision about the nature of reality. “Belief” is not an active thing, it’s not something you can will–it is a state of mind derived from what you have experientially and rationally determined reality to be.
Correct, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. However, Christians don’t see it this way since they are 110% certain they are absolutely right. They refuse to apply Pascal’s Wager to themselves.
Bruce,
Don’t worry about dying because Jesus died for you and God will not turn his back on you. The Church doesn’t want you to know because they can only pay their bills by selling bad news.
Read Pascal for yourself. I recommend “Christianity for Modern Pagans,” By Peter Kreeft.
Pascal taught that miracles are the proof of Christianity, NOT logic or science.
Bruce just posted on miracles here: http://brucegerencser.net/2012/09/13/miracles/
Bill,
So Jesus is my friend even if I don’t want him as a friend?
I do not see how miracles can be proof of anything other than unexplained things happen. How do we logically get from an unexplained event to “the Christian God did it?” This requires faith, a faith I do not have.
Bruce
Bruce,
The biggest unexplained miracle in the universe is the existence of a universe to begin with! Explain that! Oh yeah, the atheist “proves” that by saying the following…
“I believe that there was once absolutely nothing. And nothing happened to the nothing until the nothing magically exploded (for no reason), creating everything and everywhere. Then a bunch of the exploded everything magically rearranged itself (again for no reason whatsoever), into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs.”
Come on now. YOU have faith, you just choose to place your faith in you! Be honest.
Sorry, you can’t put those words in my mouth.
There is much we do not know, and a whole lot more than that, I do not know. I gladly admit my ignorance about many things.
However, just because we don’t know something doesn’t mean God is the answer. Even if God is the answer, I see no way of getting from A God of some sort to THE God of the Christian Bible.
When you use the word God you use it in a specific sense…all Evangelicals do and as Evangelicals they believe in Creationism. While there are many things about the natural world we do not know, Creationism is not the answer. It can not be sustained scientifically or rationally. It was a good explanation thousands of years ago but not today. To teach children or college students creationism (in a science classroom) is to encourage ignorance. Teach it in a world religion class as part of a survey of all the creations myths if it must be taught but it has no place in the science classroom.
I know my words are pointed and direct on this matter but I see no reason to sidestep the issue. The only people still clamoring for creationism (be it young earth, old earth, or intelligent design) is Evangelicals. The bigger problem is we are scientifically ignorant in this country and this affects how people understand the world they live in. Education is the answer.
Bruce,
Guess I struck a nerve with that one. Let me share a story. I like stories and besides, as a preacher, they help to illustrate “truth” or make a point.
Have you ever seen the movie “Contact” (1997 – w/ Jodie Foster)?
IN THE MOVIE Contact, Jodie Foster plays a scientist who is part of the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI) research team. SETI, which is a real organization, has scientists who scan space for unmistakable signs of intelligent life. What constitutes an unmistakable sign of intelligent life? A message. That’s right, something like “Take out the garbage—Mom.”
In the movie, Foster gets extremely excited when her antenna picks up radio waves that appear to have an intelligent pattern, “One, two, three, five, seven, eleven . . . those are primes!” she exclaims (meaning prime numbers). “That can’t be natural phenomena!”
Indeed, random radio waves can be naturally produced, but those that contain a message always have an intelligent source. Prime numbers, from one to 101 in order, constitute a message that only comes from an intelligent being.
Foster is so confident that ET has been found, she goes public with her discovery. Government and military officials then converge on her facility. “If this is such an intelligent source, then why don’t they just speak English?” one official asks with a hint of derision.
“Because math is the only universal language!” Foster fires back.
Of course she’s right. In fact, alphabets, and thus language itself, can be ultimately reduced to numbers. This is why the English alphabet is mathematically identical to the genetic alphabet of DNA and why the comparison of cell information to encyclopedias is a one-to-one relationship rather than just an analogy.
While Foster and her colleagues later discover a more complicated message embedded in the radio waves, they are absolutely certain the prime numbers alone prove that the message came from intelligent life. Why are they so certain of this? Because repeated observation tells us that only intelligent beings create messages and that natural laws never do. When we see a sequence of prime numbers, we realize that it requires an intelligent cause just like the messages “Take out the garbage—Mom” and “Mary loves Scott” do.
Ironically, Contact was based on a novel by the late Carl Sagan, an ardent evolutionist who believed in spontaneous generation and who was instrumental in starting the real SETI program. The irony lies in the fact that Sagan was absolutely convinced that a simple string of prime numbers proves the existence of an intelligent being, but the equivalent of 1,000 encyclopedias in the first one-celled life does not. It takes a lot of faith not to believe in God. More than I have!
Not sure what nerve you think you hit.
The whole, It takes a lot of faith not believe in God, is usually what a Christian says when they have run out of meaningful things to say.
If faith means believing things we don’t understand, then I have faith.
But, that is not what you mean by faith, is it? Again, like the word truth, faith is a word the Christians load with their theological presuppositions.
Here is the kind of faith I don’t have:
A faith that says the world is 6,000 years old, contrary to everything that science tells us about our world.
A faith that says people come come back to life after they are dead, contrary to what every funeral and cemetery tells me
A faith that says a book filled with errors and contradictions, written thousands of years by unknown authors, is a divinely inspired book that must be accepted and obeyed.
A faith that says there is a hell in the middle of the earth, a place God sends every person who does not become a Christian. It matters not what their cultural circumstance may be, it they don’t know Jesus, they fry.
This faith, my friend, is an ignorant faith, a faith that denies reality, a faith that puts fidelity to a religious text over personal observation and experience. It is a faith that expects me to deny what I know, but if I do, God will reward me by giving me a home in heaven after I die.
I know I am being pointed and direct here but there is just no other way to say what I need to say. At the end of the day, while I have no doubt you and I would get along famously if we lived close to one another, how we view the world is so different from each other that it is impossible to find common ground. I reject most everything you consider foundational to your worldview. (and I suspect you do the same) At best, I guess we come away saying…nice guy but his beliefs are crazy.
This is a perfect example of the utterly arrogant position of privilege that Christians place themselves in ontological discussions. Since the Bible has a story about the beginning of the world (and the rest of the universe seems presented as decorations of the Earth), this STORY somehow trumps all science. The STORY tells us that God made us. This is more satisfying and gratifying to someone unwilling to get real about life than what science has to offer. But why not Zeus, why not Isis, it’s absurd to suggest that your apparition is the right apparation because someone wrote it in a book. There is absolutely no science that has its root in the Bible, not a drop, not an iota. What saves people, prayer or penicillin? It is grotesque to argue that the Bible should be privileged in ANY way. It is a very old book, full of myths, which touch our hearts. But to claim it is truth is evil beyond imagination–children die as a result.
Rand,
Since you so “kindly” entered into the discussion, can you explain the “utterly arrogant position of privilege” that I take? I’m not aware of this, so I guess I would also be “ignorant” as well since that is the name Bruce so kindly used in his reply. My little “sample” explanation that “atheists” use for the origin of the universe was simply meant as some tongue in cheek humor. I’m not the first to use it on this blog so I thought a couple of “atheist” bro’s could handle a little humor.
Guess not. :/
So, I’m arrogant, ignorant, and privileged. I really don’t think that furthers any profitable discussion.
So Rand, did the universe have a beginning? Yes or no? Based on the clear observable evidence in astronomy and cosmology, did the universe have a beginning? Did the universe have a cause? Isn’t science a search for causes? Without the Law of Causality, science is impossible correct?
It’s amazing how folks who take your position, claim superior intelligence and still borrow morality and ethics from a “religious” position. You can’t have it both ways. I just wish that you both would “confess” that your conclusions are primarily “volitional” rather than intellectual. Come on, just come out of the closet! (um, poor choice of words, but you know what I mean.)
I don’t claim to know everything. I have never said that I do. Believe me, my wife let’s me know when I am wrong and in my own conscience (oops, that might be delving into another unexplainable topic – why do we even have conscience and sentience…? Hmm, another topic, another time) I know that I am wrong often as well.
We ALL have presuppositions. What’s crazy is I’m just asking for you gentlemen to be consistent and honest in those presuppositions and biases. You guys speak of “science” today like there is no bias involved. Do you really think that a “scientist” checks his biases at the door of the lab every day when he puts on his white lab-coat? Come now…
Now Rand, I know you believe in “absolute truth.” You just said it in your response. And I quote, “There is absolutely no science that has its root in the Bible, not a drop, not an iota.” Ok. Sure. So you say. But understand, you just affirmed the existence of absolute truth by your absolute truth claim. You cannot have it both ways.
I think the most troubling part of your response was the amazing statement that “children die as a result” of belief in the Bible. So Rand, in your “science” and morality, when do children die in your world? The first, second, or third trimester? Please, this is neither furthers the discussion nor helps in any meaningful way. Rand, to say that the Bible is “evil” is pointless in your world. There is no evil in your world. Satan is a myth as well. What those insane men did on September 11th is meaningless either way if there is no eternal justice or life after death. You can’t say what they did was evil or good if you really believe what you believe or “don’t” believe. It was a worthless event in the eons of time in the survival of the fittest. Follow your beliefs to their logical end. This is what you refuse to do because you KNOW where they lead.
I’ve said enough. I realize that this point, that on both “sides” we are probably speaking past one another. But, realize that nothing is helped by ad-hominem attacks upon those who hold to an opposing belief.
Good night.
I do think when people espouse beliefs that are contrary to what we know that it is ignorant. What other word should I use? Ill-informed? I refuse to play the, let’s agree to disagree game, that assumes that both views have validity. They don’t. When someone says the earth is 6,000 years old they are making a statement that flies in the face of everything science tells us. When someone tells me dead people get out of the grave and live again, they are making a statement that has no proof behind it. Such views are ignorant of the facts. I understand why people believe these things BUT that doesn’t change the fact they are saying things that are contrary to what we know about the world we live in.
There is a big difference between science and theology. Science allows for constant testing and correction. Even now, scientists are working on theories that would overturn things that we have believe about how things work in our world. Science, when faced with overwhelming evidence changes. The same can not be said for theology. Theology, especially Evangelical theology, is rooted in a 2-4 thousand year old book, a book that is purportedly timeless. Hector Avalos has advocated ending Biblical Studies. Why? There is nothing left to study. Everything has been said. When is the last time there has been a meaningful new discovery or revelation in theology?
You want to drag your theological presuppositions into a science discussion and that is where I, and I suppose Rand, have a problem. I am no scientist. I readily admit there is a lot I don’t know. However, not knowing does not mean God is the answer. The Evangelical doesn’t know either, but because of their belief in the Bible they “think” they have the answer.
We have come to a place in the discussion where you think you know how atheists think about morality, ethics, the world, etc. Your statements in this comment reflect this. You have this atheist straw man, that can be purchased at any Christian bookstore, that you think represents how atheists think about the world. I have wrote a number of posts on how I decide my moral and ethical beliefs. You seemingly can’t accept this because without your God as judge, jury and executioner there is no ultimate justice in the world.
Atheists can,and do, say it is morally wrong to fly airplanes into buildings and kill people. This act harmed other people, innocent people, and as a society we rightly punish people who do such things. (of course, in the case of 9-11, the ultimate punishment is the terrorists are dead, no afterlife, no virgins for them) We can also say it is morally wrong to attack a sovereign state like Iraq and kill thousands of people. We can also say it is morally wrong to drop atomic bombs on innocent civilians, killing hundreds of thousands of them. We don’t need a God, a Bible, a preacher, or a church to determine for us what is morally wrong. “We the people” are quite capable of setting the moral and ethical parameters for the culture we live in.
You want to import religious language into this discussion, words like sin, evil, Satan, truth, etc. I know it frustrates you when can’t frame the argument according to the rules you are used to playing by.
I am at advantage here since I know your rules quite well. I am also quite verse in the alternative rule book. 
Bruce
“Atheists can,and do, say it is morally wrong to fly airplanes into buildings and kill people.”
Exactly why? As Lord Maynard Keynes noted, “In the long run, we are all dead.”
It is in our best interest to care and keep safe our own.
OK, I’m also a “local social contract” believer. We should take care of our own kind of people.
But then it is OK to kill the people on the other side of the mountain? Those in Iran, for example? Army ants set the standard?
Generally, we should have the best interest of all people at heart.
“Without the Law of Causality, science is impossible”
That’s what Einstein thought but he was wrong. Apparently God designed a nun-causal random factor into the universe.
Yes, I believe Jesus is still your friend.
But does he still want me for a sunbeam?
I don’t think either of us are “sunbeam” material.
Pretty funny, but you are definitely a sunbeam for many people, if being a sunbeam means illuminating the world.
I believe there is a misconception by some Christians and non Christians on how people believe.
Christians dont “believe” because someone showed us one last piece of evidence that finally convinced us this was all true. This isnt Columbo
If we treat belief as the collecting of data, piecing together clues, and then finally obtaining just enough to put us over the hump, we leave ourselves open to that one piece of new evidence that debunks our theory.
We hear about the beauty of Christ nature, his offer, and we turn to a God in humility and the truth is put into our minds as a fact. No matter what has happened to me in my life I cant shake this fact. God wont let go of me.
Of all the people who I’ve talked to that dont believe in God, not one has ever answered yes to this question…..
Have you ever thought to ask God Himself what the truth is?
They search for clues, have arguments with themselves, debating back and forth pros and cons, but never ask God. But why? Well, its usually because they think they’re smarter than the supposed God of this world. In other words, “I can think of a better plan than this–so there cant be a God to ask anyway.”
Dont you think that would block communication with God?
Think about it…”I dont understand the plan…so there’s no God.” Isnt one of the definitions of God that he is infinitely smarter than us? Does a dog ever realize why we sent him outside to poop? You see suffering and think..I’ve got better plan. Doesnt a dog think he has a better plan than us too? Havnt we seen Man’s grand plan enough to know we dont have clue?
It takes humility to admit we might not be as wise as we think we are. It takes a child like attitude to say, “God…help me understand. If you are real, help my mind understand it.” If you drop your shields He will put it as a fact in your head. Its not about clues or data. Yes, there is testimony. People have died for it instead of suicide bombed for it. And yes, there are more copies of the Bible on earth than any other book. But ask God himself. That is the answer– hear the testimony and ask God. No clever arguments will achieve what only God can do.
The vehicle God choose was not to put a burden on you—but HIM. We cant be perfect because have the freewill to think anything we want..(so its possible to choose.) We deserve to be punished for our behavior but God stepped in and took that punishment for us. All he asks is you accept that. His plan is like nothing man would think up. Man would make it hard..God made it as easy as it could be. Accept his offer and live forever. I say, where do I sign up? Man’s idea would be to go on CNN. But God reveals the true state of a human heart by requiring child-like faith. Remember, they killed Christ when they saw him and all the great things he did. So seeing makes no difference because God knows who you are regardless of what you see.
The atheist search for “Proof” is not found in data, but in asking God. God transforms the mind…not data. But I find it amusing that you think the probabilities are with you? The universe has effectively a zero probability of clumping together and designing itself by chance. People see this in 2 seconds of thought, they dont need fine tuning numbers to see the obvious. But as I said, this is matter of the heart alone. Christ message is designed to attract those who are for the real God and those who are not for him..will just walk away revealed for their true desire to rule oneself.
Asking which God? How would I know your God, and there are thousands of Christian Gods, is the one speaking to me? How do you know your God is THE God? Maybe the God you hear is a false God or just a voice in your head.
Your argument here is silly. There is no way to know, is there? It requires faith and THAT is what atheists don’t have. Yes the evidence is important but so is a lack of faith. We don’t believe because we can’t not because we won’t.
If your God wants me he knows where I am. I just asked him again to speak to me. Silence, always silence.
Yes, it is about probabilities. Is it probable that there is a God who is one yet three, a God who had sex with a virgin so he could birth himself, a God who led a sinless life, got executed, ressurected, ascended back into heaven, is coming back to destroy everything? No. Probable that such a story can be found in a book of myths? 100% probable because we have the book.
There is one God. Humans have assigned many names to him. I don’t think he cares or has assigned a mandatory name to himself. Orthodox Jews use a generic designation, YHWH or some such, pronounced, “The Lord,” also a generic name.
No way to know that there is one God. It’s just a convenience to think that way, a way to organize one’s conscious spirituality. But absolutely no, no, no evidence one way or the other. And Zeus and Yahweh are equally debauched by normal human criteria of what constitutes ethics. Maybe Bach is God. That would make a lot more sense to me.
You raise a good point, Rand. I have often said, Ok…I can intellectually understand the notion of a God. But how do you get to one God, your God, out of the thousands of gods in the panoply of gods? Why should we choose the Christian God? The answer? The Bible says so!! And that is where it all breaks down for me.
Bruce,
I wish you well. I have concluded that I’m not going to learn anything from you that I haven’t already come to understand from other atheists/agnostics. Thanks for attempting to keep things civil, but unfortunately, this is taking up more of my time than I really feel I need it to. To continue to with replies and to just continue in speaking past one another and arguing over semantics is a waste of both of our time. We both have completely different worldviews and we both believe we are right in our positions. I found your story fascinating and I certainly hope that your worldview is a comfort and help in the remaining years of your life. I can honestly say, that I do wish you well and many long days still on this “pale blue dot” suspended in starlight. We will both continue on our separate journeys, and perhaps, our paths will cross again. God bless you.
I can’t help myself. 
No problem. I will answer a couple of your last questions.
We are not really talking past each other. We have fundamentally different ways we look at the world. This is why atheists and Christians will never find a common ground.
The best we can hope for is a society where our laws give freedom to both. Unfortunately, the current battles between secularists, humanists,atheists and Evangelicals is a political one, one of history, and what the Constitution actually says. These battles will ultimately be fought in the US Supreme Court.
I have appreciated the discussion.
Bruce