Some of you may think that my recent post about Christians, churches, and how they spend their money reflects an angry hostile attitude towards Christianity. I want to clarify a few things lest anyone misunderstand me.
First, I am not hostile or angry towards religion in general. I think many people find religion to be helpful and it gives their life meaning and purpose.
Second, I think there are some denominations, churches, and pastors who do good, meaningful works as they minster to the poor, sick, homeless, and disenfranchised.
Third, as long an individual Christian doesn’t try to evangelize me, witness to me, preach at me, attempt to turn the secular state I live into a theocracy, try to have creationism taught as science in public schools, or try to codify the Christian religion’s moral code into law, I am indifferent towards that person and Christianity. However, since many Evangelicals think they MUST do these things, they should expect me to be push back and oppose their efforts.
Fourth, I think churches and ministers should be stripped of ALL federal, state, and local tax exemption. Most of their money goes towards staff, buildings, and infrastructure. The actual amount of money spent on charitable acts ministering to the poor, sick, homeless, and disenfranchised is quite small. I am for them receiving tax exemption as a non-profit IF the actual amount of money spent of charitable work is 70-90% of their total income. Until this happens, I am against using taxpayer money to support what is essentially a private club.
Fifth, giving money to a church is not the same as giving money to the Red Cross, March of Dimes, or United Way. I don’t think Christians should receive a tax deduction for giving money to their church. (I see no difference between a church and the YMCA, Elks, Moose, or VFW) If the church becomes a non-profit like I mentioned above then I would support their donations being tax deductible.
Sixth, I hope Christians who comment on this blog will remember I am an atheist. I hope they will also remember that I lived for 50 years in their world and that I spent 25 years as a pastor. I know their world inside and out. You may not like my observations or critique of Christianity but you are not my target audience. I am glad you read my writing and I am glad you take the time to comment. However, you are not who I am interested in reaching. I am far more interested in helping those who are considering leaving Christianity or who have already left. Knowing this, I hope you will understand when I don’t let you use this blog as an opportunity to witness to people. If you are a Christian you KNOW the difference between conversation and evangelizing. The former is fine. The latter? Please don’t do it. I will delete EVERY comment that is an attempt to evangelize or preach at me and the non-Christians who frequent this blog.
Seventh, I oppose fundamentalism wherever it is found. If I seem angry or hostile towards fundamentalist Christianity it is because I am. I think fundamentalist Christianity is harmful and often leads to mental and spiritual abuse. I make no apology for this and no matter how much you try to convince me you are a “nice” fundamentalist or that your church is a “nice” fundamentalist church, I know what I know about fundamentalism and I will not be swayed. I would love to see every fundamentalist church closed (not by coercion but by loss of members). I realize this will never happen because there will always be people who demand certainty and need someone to tell them how to think, live, and act. For this kind of people, fundamentalist Christianity is their drug of choice. All I can do is stridently and publicly appose fundamentalist Christianity and when given the opportunity encourage and advise fundamentalist Christians to seek out friendlier, kinder, and more inclusive churches.
This is my way of saying to the fundamentalist Christians who stop by to WOW me what they think they know and to tell me how wicked, evil, and headed for hell I am, that I have a short fuse when it comes to fundamentalist Christianity and that is just how it is.
As always, thank you for reading The Way Forward.
Bruce
Bruce,
I do understand what you believe (rather what you don’t believe) and I think that you have the right to express it. I try (and usually accomplish it, I think) to be polite to you and, if I have been rude to you, please accept my apology. I know I am the one who used the word “WOW”, but I use it to show how amazing something is, at least to me. If you don’t want me to use that term any longer, just let me know and I’ll stop. I do think that is a pretty tame term compared to some others that I have seen by others here.
I do appreciate the “leash” that you have given me to express my views. I have posted to other “non believers” blogs before and they wouldn’t post it. You have been very open to me giving my views. I try not to “preach” on here, but to respond to a criticism that I feel is unwarranted. We ALL have strong beliefs and I do as well. I try to express it with patience and forebearance.
Thanks for the post. Take care!
Are you a Christian, and what are you, Marty? So asks the Lord Ben Chung. (as opposed to the Lord God or the Lord Jesus).
Well said, Bruce!!! As always!!! And, thanks for protecting me and the others on here from being “witnessed to”; Christians witness enough to me with their lives to remind me constantly of why I left IFB Christanity and Christanity in general.
No problem, bro!
Bruce
just saw the intro to the comments on “the big picture” blog: (www.ritholtz.com/blog), and thought you’d get a kick out it:
“Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data, ability to repeat discredited memes, and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Also, be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor even implied. Any irrelevancies you can mention will also be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous.”
Absolutely love it. Thanks for sharing.
This is awesome!!
Bruce
Bruce, maybe you should point out the fact that Dinesh their saviour, their god has been found with other woman! And as the sacred scriptures taught, a man should have two wives!! I would commend those who hold the inerrancy to read Deut 15, and thank god that he is found. For the son of man came to seek and save that which was lost! Amen., God and Jesus must have found Dinesh with an extra woman at the local Christian conference and on Christian values. Wow., that would be my Christian value, except….I have to talk to my Boss. Amen.
amen!
Right on Bruce. Well said.
As a Christian, one who would describe himself as a Bible-believer, I don’t mind that church donations are tax exempt, but that isn’t a big issue. We should be serving and giving out of our beliefs, not because we get (or don’t get) a tax break. Christians often get hung up on appearing successful. The should be helping other people instead. As your 70-90% rule, could we just make that a requirement to be a church.
I am of the opinion that IF Christians take the Bible serious that ministering to the poor, sick, homeless and disenfranchised should be an essential part of the church they attend. Sadly, most churches are about power. money, and helping fat church members get fatter. There are six churches within a few miles of where I live. As far as I know none of them do one thing to minister to the poor, sick, homeless and disenfranchised in my community. Good people, nice people, good neighbors…but little zeal and passion for ministering to the “least of these.”
I am not sure about the U.S but in Canada, churches are not required to fulfill the same requirements as other registered charities in order to be tax exempt. I don’t think they have to show their books to the tax people, so there is no way of knowing exactly how much churches actually donate to helping the poor and needy. I think Bruce’s suggestion re 70-90% is a great idea,but even registered charities can take as much as 80% in “overhead” or “administration costs”.
I think a lot of “charities” should lose their tax exemption too. If the bulk of their income is not going towards charitable works then they should not be tax exempt.
Bruce, you amaze me. How could you live 50 years as a Christian, and serve 25 years as a pastor to wind up becoming an atheist? I just don’t get it….unless you never really believed, or never really had a genuine encounter with, the Living Christ. But then, if that be the case, why were you hanging in there for so long, to the point of even pastoring for 25 long years! I’m just wondering what actually finally triggered your dumping your 50 years of “belief”. Yeah, you mentioned a lot of grievances against all kinds of Christians and many wrong things committed by many kinds of Christians, and you faulted God and the Bible on a great many things that have gone wrong since the beginning of time…and you ended up concluding…”There is no God.” Still, I’m puzzled by your final decision to become an atheist. Are you a happier person, now that you are an atheist, if I may ask? Also, if there is no God, then where do humans come from? From apes? And where do atheists go after this life? Just wondering……
Like many Christians, instead of taking me at my word and accepting that I am the best person to understand my own life, the decisions I have made, and how I have lived my life, you decide, because my life doesn’t fit your peculiar theology, that I must never nave been a real Christian.
My disbelief ultimately rests on the fact that I do not believe the Bible is a divine book, an inerrant, infallible, inspired book, a book given to man by God. It is an internally contradictory book and quite irrelevant for people in the 21st century. While I believe the a man named Jesus existed 2,000 years ago, I do not believe he was God, virgin born, worked miracles or ressurrected from the dead. He got himself executed…end of story. It is for these reasons I am not a Christian.
Am I happier as a Christian? http://brucegerencser.net/2011/08/08/why-i-am-happier-without-god/
I would encourage you to read the post in this series: http://brucegerencser.net/series/my-journey-eternity-here/
To answer your question, where do humans come from? I think evolution best describes our natural world.
To answer your question, where do atheists go after this life? We ALL, Bruce, Lim, and every human including Jesus, die and become worm food and fertilizer. There is no afterlife. One life, better get to living it, then you are dead, end of story.
Thanks for commenting.
Bruce
Bruce, you think there is no afterlife, but Christians believe and are sure of an afterlife. What if they are right? What are you gonna do? But if you are right, then Christians believe in vain..like Paul said in 1Corinthians 15:12-19. In fact, Paul closed the chapter with a triumphant note (v.54-55):
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O Death, where is thy victory?
O Death, where is thy sting?”
Yes, indeed, our physical body (our shell) will become fertilizer and return to earth.
Matthew 28, the book of ACTS, Paul’s conversion, the book of Revelations, etc. all testify to the resurrection, ascension and second coming of Christ. Would you think they are all false and untrue accounts? I hope not. Ever wondered why the apostles and the other early believers, like the first martyr, Stephen, were willing to die for the cause of Christ? Were they fools? Were they hoodwinked? Did they die in vain? These are some questions that need addressing, I feel. Never mind, don’t bother to answer, if you don’t wish to. No problem with me at all.
As for evolution, it doesn’t hold much water, to me. First of all, I don’t fancy having monkeys (or perhaps, amoebas) as my ancestors. Secondly, how come we don’t see evolution taking place for the last 2 millennia? If we care to look around us, all the modern gadgets we are using have a “creator” behind them. Even babies are “created” and born. We don’t see another animal “evolving ” into a human, or do we? Of course, there are those who try to play God….the birth of test-tube babies, and the likes. I foresee a chaotic world when man try to play God. Scary!
I agree with you about living that one life we have here on earth, and to live it well. It is better to live a happy short life than to live a long but miserable one….that has always been one my philosophies of life.
Ah well, we decide how we want to live our lives….
All the best!
Lim
I expect your next question would be “If man is descended from monkeys, why are there still monkeys”? That one is always good for a laugh