Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) pastor, Bob Gray (not the pedophile pastor Bob Gray from Jacksonville, Florida) pastored the Longview Baptist Temple in Longview Texas for over thirty years. Gray turned the church franchise over to his son and became a traveling preacher. He blogs at Solving Church Problems.
Bob Gray is a prototypical, Sword of the Lord, Jack Hyles loving IFB preacher. He preaches an antinomian, one-two-three repeat after me, pray the sinners prayer, easy-believism gospel and he is what is called a hyper-soulwinner. Gray is of the opinion that winning souls to Jesus is the only thing that really matters. Gray, a consummate bean counter, can tell you right down to the individual how many people he has won to Christ and how many people were won to Christ under his ministry.
Over the years, Gray and the Longview Baptist Temple won more souls to Christ than actually live in Longview Texas. While the Longview Baptist Temple grew to be quite large, the number of souls saved far outnumbered the number of people baptized and added to the church membership. Gray, like many of his ilk, is only concerned with people “getting people saved.” If they never get baptized or become a part of the church? Regrettable, but hey…there are more souls to save. (he was taught this philosophy by his idol Jack Hyles)
Gray is a big supporter of Jack Hyles. He is insistent, to this day, that Jack Hyles was a tower of virtue and that he never did the things he was accused of. (I believe Gray attended Hyles Anderson College) Recently, Gray has taken to his blog to defend the IFB over charges of widespread abuse and sexual misconduct. While he admits Jack Schaap, pastor of First Baptist Church in Hammond Indiana, should not have had sex with a 16/17 year old girl in his church, he is quick to suggest that Schaap’s behavior is not typical of what goes on in IFB churches.
Enter one Jeri Massi. Jeri Massi is a former IFB church member who blogs at Blog on the Way, Information and Resources to assist victims of church abuse in Christian Fundamentalism.
Jeri is an acquaintance of mine. While we disagree with one another on religion, she being a Christian and me being an atheist, we both agree that sexual and emotional abuse is quite widespread in IFB churches. We both agree that these abuses should be exposed to the light of day.
Recently, Jeri did a post on corporate repentance. Her post evidently got under Gray’s skin and he has taken to his blog to attack Jeri Massi. His response to her is funny (and childish) and it reveals what kind of man he really is. It also reveals the lengths some IFB preachers will go to protect the IFB kingdom.
In a blog post titled,WRITING WRONGS-It is Time to Call The Forums and Blogs for What They Are, Gray wrote:
…Enter “Christian” forums and Blogs that attempt to copy the style of expose journalism. They make it their business to expose things that are really none of any ones business. I expect the lost world to gossip and slander, but I expect better of Christians.
Do not misunderstand me. I believe the internet is a wonderful place to fight error and to teach truth. However, when it comes to matters of a local church, many times they become a place to learn the latest “scoop.”
How is it that heathens like Tricia Lacriox or Jeri Massi can be “trusted” vehicles of information that they and their fellow demonettes desire ONLY for the purpose of destruction? Why would we go to them for our information? Worse yet why would we believe their information?
The answer to that question is troubling. I hear people say it is because that is the only place they find out what is going on. WAIT! Why do you need to find out what is going on and why would you trust avowed enemies to the cause of Christ to be your informers? That is nonsense! It is also evil! Let me help you with something. You do not need to know!
Allow me to give you an example. Where do these information streetwalkers receive their information? A church is dealing with a situation that is horrible. Someone on the inside has information and they give it to the proper authorities in their church and for their ears only. These authorities deal with the problem.
However, there are evil individuals with info who are moles and who will be judged of God for their wickedness. They garner information not for the purpose of helping, but for sharing with those in bloggers sphere who disdain soul winning independent Baptist churches.
Do they report the number of souls saved the previous week, the number of converts baptized, the Sunday school attendance, the lives salvaged, or any good being done? NO! They are like vultures who do not see the beauty, but rather only the carcases of the dead.
These are haters of soul winning churches. Their STATED goal is to destroy those soul winning churches. They want these churches to go away so they find the things they can use to condemn and twist in order to accomplish their goal. THEN, WE READ IT!?!?
These forums and blogs create arguments, bickering, slander, strife, and discord among the brethren. These demonettes rejoice because they have accomplished their goal of casting a curse on that which they despise. Anyone who questions them is then attacked for “covering sin” or “enabling sinners.” These demonettes are morons! They have no idea what they are writing about…
In a blog post titled, Jeri Massi—Liar Liar Pants on Fire!, Gray wrote:
…I am appalled at the sins of those who besmirch the office of ministry as well as any one, man or woman, who do such despicable acts, but I refuse to indict a whole community because of a few.
I think we are all accountable in some respects because we do not walk closely enough with God to be able to spot such people. However, I know of no one who on purpose allows such things to occur. I only know of gossips who paint a picture without really knowing the truth.
Then people like you Jeri carry their water to incriminate good churches who are doing their best to deal with such wicked people. Get the facts Jeri.
Again, you did not call me. You did not seek the other side of the story and you made a BIG mistake by not doing so. Which makes me wonder about others who have been smeared by your lap top gossip.
If they are guilty lock them up! I have no problem letting people know who the predators are. But, do not indict everyone. Check out the Scriptures on being a false accuser Jeri!
Why do we go soul winning? Because of the fact that “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.”
Let me see if I understand you correctly…we should not go soul winning because of wicked men who do wicked things? Maybe that is why God does not call women to be pastors. Logic like yours deserves to be studied? Ha!
Jeri Massi, you are in this for you. I have been in the ministry for 40 years and have given my life to help the hurting while your claim to fame is living off of victims.
If you were an honest person you would have contacted me before running to your blog to condemn something you knew nothing of except through the eyes of those haters who lie and supply you with slop.
Why don’t you put out your cigar, shut your Hollywood movies off, put away your favorite beer, find a good Christian man to marry, have some babies, and get a real life!
“Run if you want to, hide if you will, but I came here to stay!”
In a blog post titled, I Owe Jeri Massi an Apology, Gray wrote:
Please forgive me Jeri! I was under a wrong impression and it really grieves me that I did not see the truth. I did not really know you and I was under a false judgment.
I did know your brother Vince for we graduated together at Hyles-Anderson College. I really liked your brother. I know you and him have had some misunderstandings, but let that be as it may.
I just want to make this thing right with you before it really got out of hand. You see this is a real problem among those of us who are independent Baptist people. IF we are not careful we assume facts not in evidence.
Of course, we are not a denomination and have no headquarters and our only rule of faith and practice is the King James Bible. This is what brings us together.
Thus, we are in loose association with each other organizational wise. We come together based on a Bible principle of “mutual faith.” As a result we are drawn together not by a political or corporate entity but by “mutual faith.” We have no elections and we have no president for we only have our mutual beliefs. Each church is independent of the others.
It is absolutely wrong of me to have entered into this with you at the level I did. Please forgive me! May we go back to the beginning and start over in our conversation. Maybe we can come to a consensus and help many of your friends in the internet forum world at the same time?
Many of these others, with whom you associate, I am just now starting to get my mind wrapped around who they are. I do sense that there is a longing and a searching among you and your friends for truth. I do not dispute that at all. I do however think we have all started off on the wrong foot. Hopefully we can rectify this.
May I begin with Scriptures please?
Romans 3:10, “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:”
Romans 3:23, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
Romans 6:23a, “For the wages of sin is death…”
Revelation 20:14, “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”
Romans 5:8, “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 6:23b, “…but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Ephesians 2:8-9, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Romans 10:9, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Now Jeri would you like to trust Jesus Christ to pay for all of your past sins, present sins, and future sins? If so would you bow in your heart and ask Christ to save you.
I can provide a prayer to help you if you would like, but remember a prayer is just words and a prayer cannot save you. A prayer is communication between you and Christ. Jeri, many people are saved before they ever utter a word or walk an aisle in church. So, if you in child like faith will open your soul and let Jesus know you want to trust Him He will save your soul.
Jesus is a perfect gentleman for He will not force His way into your soul. Jeri, it is not the shed blood, but the shed and applied blood that cleanses a man’s soul.
Jeri I again must apologize I did not realize until I saw your love for Buddha of your basic beliefs. I apologize for mocking your cigars, your love for beer, your love for the filth of Hollywood, and so on. No one can be saved by quitting cigars, movies, or liquor. It is faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ that saves a person from going to Hell.
It did not dawn on me of your spiritual condition. Again, I am so sorry!
Matthew 15:14, “Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.”
Jeri, you are blind and have a spiritual vail over your eyes and truly cannot see. Again, I am sorry I did not see this in the beginning. It appears I assumed something that was just not true about you. JUST A THOUGHT!
Gray concludes, based on what she has written, that Jeri Massi is not a Christian. But wait, Dr Bob, Jeri prayed the sinners prayer. Doesn’t that make her a Christian no matter how she lives or what she says? According to Gray’s soteriology, even a Christian turned atheist like me is still a Christian. Once saved, always saved…what a deal.
I have no idea about the veracity of the issues Jeri Massi has blogged about. I do know her past work that I have read has been accurate and I have no reason to believe she is not being accurate now. The real issue in not what Jeri wrote. Gray is upset that he has no control over what she writes. Gray, the misogynistic man that he is, is furious he can’t force Jeri to submit to his authority or any other authority for that matter.
Gray wrote one line that pretty well reveals where he is coming from. He says to Jeri:
Why don’t you put out your cigar, shut your Hollywood movies off, put away your favorite beer, find a good Christian man to marry, have some babies, and get a real life!
The internet has empowered writers to bring to light the dark secrets of the IFB church movement. Prior to the internet, the IFB gatekeepers could control the flow of information. Not any more. Now there are countless writers airing the dirty laundry of the IFB church movement. Men like Gray are watching their kingdom slip away and there is nothing they can do about it except throw a childish temper tantrum like he did in the blog posts mentioned above.
Dr. Bob, if you are reading this, I have a message from God for you and the IFB church movement:
Mene, Mene, Tekel u-Pharsin
Or in English…God has numbered your kingdom and finished it, You have been weighed in the balances and found wanting, Your kingdom has been divided and given to churches and pastors who love people and don’t abuse them. (Daniel 5 with a slight Bruce Gerencser twist)
You can read Jeri Massi’s responses here, here, here, and here.
Hi Bruce, thank you for the kind words. I do have one tiny correction. My post that sent Bob Gray off into attack mode was not specifically about him. I wrote a post on the necessity of corporate repentance. I realize you are an atheist but well read in the Bible. If for a moment we pretend that we both believe the Bible as Gray professes to believe it: every word true, every word binding, then I think you know the Bible well enough to agree that it definitely teaches corporate repentance as well as individual repentance. But this topic REALLY enrages the fundies. That was actually what started it all. I never mentioned Gray in that post. He just went berserk over it.
http://jeriwho.net/lillypad2/?p=5110
Thanks for the correction. I fixed the post.
And yes, I agree with you on corporate repentance, not only as a religious concept but as a cultural one. We must be willing to own our collective sins and the part we play in them. As you well know, preachers like Gray think their “sh*t” doesn’t stink and that they are above the fray. I would love to see just one of these guys be completely honest about what goes on behind the scenes in the IFB.
I know this is why I infuriate them. They know that I know…like the former Mafia soldier…I know where the bodies are buried. Does this mean that every IFB preacher is a snake? Of course not. However, there are some systemic problems in the IFB church movement (and in much of Evangelicalism) that lead to abuse of all sorts. I would never recommend a person go to these kind of churches.
Keep blogging away, my friend.
Bruce
Jeri, I’m in love!!! Will you marry me?? (If not, that’s cool; keep tormenting Gray & that will be enough for me!!)
And you are correct, Bruce. Gray attending & graduated from Hyles/Anderson. He was in the first class, I believe. (I should know, he was my hero for years).
Hey, if you’re rich, I’m single! ha ha! And yes, Gray is a graduate of Hyles-Anderson and definitely the first in line to down the kool-aid!
LMAO!! No, sigh, sadly, I’m not rich. I’m, (as the old saying goes), “broke as my broke-dick dog!” lol!
But, I’ll stay enamored with you as long as you keep ‘ol Robert Glynn’s feet to the fire!
Well, right now, Bob has put himself on hold. I rebutted him last. He has not responded yet.
Hi Bruce and Jeri!
I have been communicating with Bruce for a couple of weeks now and didn’t know of Jeri’s blog until today. I spent some time over there and will probably respond to some of her stuff there.
While I am a pastor of a Baptist church, I guess that I am outside of the IFB group. My church affiliates with the American Baptist Association (not the northern American Baptist CONVENTION, there is a HUGE difference). We are a small group comparitively of about 3000 churches, but we are VERY conservative in our doctrines. We are independent in that we don’t believe in exercising authority over any other church, we are VERY church authority oriented. We believe that ONLY the local church has the authority to do Christ’s work on this earth. No other group, convention, association, fellowship, board, OR preachers have authority on this earth.
Having said that, we have had our share of preachers who have “gone bad” with women or money. Not a lot, but more than a few. I don’t recall of any pedophiles that were caught, but we have a few men who are adulterers and a few that have been caught with their hands “in the till” so to speak. The vast majority of our preachers are good men who live on low pay and work for the Lord and not their own kingdom. Most of our churches run less than 100 in Sunday School and only 1 or 2 that would have more than a thousand in attendance every Sunday.
We believe in soul winning, but not the “repeat a prayer” and sign me up type of hyper evangelism of the IFB churches. We do go door knocking with very little visible results. In my first pastorate, (the 30th anniversary of that date is this Sunday), I pastored a little church in Orlando, Florida. We were located in a big housing development in East Orlando. In the 6 years I was there, I knocked on every door in that development. Over 5000 homes. I baptized a total of 3 people that I won while door knocking and about 40 in total. It was very discouraging, but, if a person would listen to me tell them how to be saved, I would very carefully give them the Gospel of the death, the burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Most said, “Not now” when I asked them if they were ready to be saved.Very few even came to church. Very discouraging indeed.
When I was a student at Florida Baptist College in Lakeland, Florida back in the late 70′s-early 80′s, I got interested in some of the “big shots” in the IFB groups. Jack Hyles was my favorite and I have called him the greatest pulpiteer I’ve ever heard and still believe that. Lee Roberson, and B.R. Lakin were also favorites of mine. However, after going to Hyles’ Pastor’s School in 1981, I had my eyes opened to a lot of things that just COULD NOT be true. I also have over 2000 of Hyles audio sermons on tape and CD and used to listen to them and, if you listen to several of them back to back, you can see that a lot of his bragging were just impossible to swallow. When I heard of the accusations against him by Vic Nischik, I bought the book “The Wizard Of God” and read it and knew that much of what he claimed, I saw in the short week I was there.
Since then, of course, other disturbing news came out about “Jax Bob (Gray)” and others that really showed the dangers of the IFB practice of preacher “worshipping”. One of the greatest tenets of the American Baptist Association (ABA) is that the emphasis on authority is through the church and not the pastor. The pastor is supposed to be the leader, but not the authoritative figure that IFB churches seem to have. He is a “minister” and the word means a “servant” of the church. In 30 years of pastoring 4 churches, I have never voted in a business meeting, I am the moderator. We have deacon meetings, but anything the deacons do is a recommendation, it still takes the body to vote and enact actions. The power that I, as the pastor, is influence. The people are to have confidence in me, but that is not blind confidence, but EARNED confidence. That is from a record of doing things properly, above board and, most importantly, TRANSPARENT. I don’t handle ANY of the churches money, and I don’t want to. A few years ago, the church treasurer came to me on Sunday evening and said that he was going out of town the next morning before the bank opens and he wouldn’t be back for a week. He asked if I would take the church deposits to the bank and deposit them. I said, “Nope, I ain’t going to do it.” He looked at me funny and I told him that I don’t want anything to do with any of the churches money, I would get a deacon to do it and he looked at me and smiled. He understood.
I am also fanatical about women! (Now, keep reading! LOL) I have been married to the same woman (her name is Jerri) for 35 years. I don’t want anyone else. Before I started pastoring, I made a committment to never go into a place with a woman without my wife or her husband being there. In 35 years, I have only broken that one time and that was in an emergency. I had gone to visit a man and his wife (there were in their 70′s) and, when I knocked on the door, I heard her calling for help. I went into the kitchen and she was laying on the floor. She had fallen and broken her hip and her husband was not there. She had been laying there for 4 hours. I called 911 and they came and got her. When they did arrive, I was sitting on the floor, holding her hand. I think the Lord understood that. She made a complete recovery. But, I don’t “cull” them. From 6-69 (actually a few 80 year olds), I don’t go in without an adult being there.
Well, I didn’t mean for it to be so long. (I get that way sometimes). My point in all of this is, there are some “bad apples” out there, but you can’t lump everyone together. MOST Baptist preachers are good, Godly men who love the Lord and love their people. They do a lot of good and when some IDIOT like Bob Grey or a “white washer” comes along and tries to cover up the truth, it does all of us a disservice. God bless you!
So you are a Landmark Baptist of the J.R. Graves variety?
Not to that extent, but I do believe that the local church is the ONLY church and reject the universal, invisible church of ALL believers. In closed communion and rejecting alien immersion. I do believe in the perpetuity of the Lord’s churches, although I don’t think it can be proven individually because of the lack of records, but that there have always been churches who believed like the first church at Jerusalem. I am NOT a Protestant and no real church is. I know that the name “Baptist” started just a few centuries ago, but that there were churches that went by other names who believed as we do today.
This turned into three separate sub threads, all essentially discussing the same thing, so see my answer here (elsewhere in the comments):
http://brucegerencser.net/2012/10/16/ifb-pastor-bob-gray-shows-his-true-colors/comment-page-1/#comment-4178
I am reading the blog posts and comments here, and I must say I am amused, saddened, and almost angry all at once at the complete lack of perception you seem to have. For starters, idolizing ANY man in ANY pulpit in America or anywhere else is wrong. Placing your trust and faith in a human to be perfect and have no sin is foolish, as the Bible clearly teaches against it in the New Testament.
Secondly, in direct response to your comment about the ABA placing emphasis on the church carrying the role of leadership and not the pastor– I challenge you to show me that in the Bible. The Scripture clearly teaches that the local pastor has the rule of the church, as God selected him to receive direction for the body of believers he is leading. In fact, the deacon board so widely touted by the Baptists and other denominations throughout the world has become extremely perverted over time.
In the early church, the deacons were NOT leaders in the church per se. In other words, they had no control over what the pastor decided as far as the direction in the church. In fact, they were quite literally servants to the people of the church. Their role was to see that orphans, widows, and needy families were taken care of.
The pastor had complete control over the direction of the church and ministries. If you get your doctrine from the American Baptist Association, Southern Baptist Association, United Methodists, Wesleyans, or ANY other religious organization…YOU ARE GETTING IT FROM THE WRONG SOURCE! Go back to the Bible and see what God Himself teaches in the Old and New Testaments and leave behind the idea that a collective group of men or women know more than God Himself.
That said, I do no think you to be foolish, stupid, or in any way less of a Christian than anyone else. However, I do think you are sadly misguided.
All Baptist preachers everywhere have failed to institute accountability among Baptist elders. Sad, but true. What enabled Bob Gray (JAX) to get away with his gross sins and what enabled Jack Hyles to succeed so well with his heresies an abuses was the adamant refusal of fellow pastors to come together and rebuke and discipline them, which is directly ordered to be done for elders who fall.
The very structure and nature of the New Testament shows us that the radical church autonomy that you endorse did not exist back then.Local churches were organized within the city states. It is to the confederated church (made up of the local assemblies) that Paul is writing when he writes to the “Romans” and “the Corinthians.” So letters went to regional assemblies but were binding on all churches. But each regional church was made up of local churches that recognized their inter relationship within the regional church. And furthermore, the toughest, most persistent questions were handled by the Council at Jerusalem, and their decisions were binding on all the churches.
I don’t want to sidetrack Bruce’s blog with a lengthy discussion on church government, so you can continue on my blog if you like. But no justification and no tradition makes radical church autonomy a good idea. It’s a very bad idea. And that has definitely been proved out.
I agree. The number one problem with Baptist, Independent, Charismatic, and Pentecostal churches is their ecclesiology. They become a law unto themselves and there are no checks and balances. This is why there is so much abuse and scandal in these type of churches. (and I am not saying there is not abuse and scandal in churches with other ecclesiologies.)
Abuses and scandals in Independent churches has flown under the radar for years. With the advent of the internet, more attention is being paid to these churches. The secular media is now investigating abuse claims and scandals in Independent churches and this has forced these kind of churches to be more accountable. (that and insurance companies)
Yes, a simple comparison works. There are abuse cases from time to time in the conservative Presbyterian Church of America (like two or fewer per year in the PCA). They have nowhere NEAR the number of abuse cases that occur in either the IFB or SBC. And the PCA disciplines, announces, and expels church officers who abuse children. So they don’t get repeats such as occur in the IFB and SBC. Un;ike a Baptist Church, which–at best–expels the offender out of the local church, the PCA keeps him out of the entire denomination. Baptist offenders often just go from church to church and start all over again, shielded by the blanket ignorance and indifference created by local church autonomy.
The PCA uses a system of accountability that works, Church members can appeal up the chain of eldership and go from the local church to the regional board, all the way to the General Assembly if they need to. And that is good, and that is safer than local church autonomy. That system offers protection and representation to the very poorest, humblest, newest church member. The comparatively more liberal PCUSA has the same record. I don’t like their doctrine, but they are a heck of a lot less scandal-rdden than the Baptists!
Jeri, I do agree that what they do will help to remove people who offend seriously from ever being in a position to do the same to others, but my question is; is it scriptural? I don’t find that type of hierarchy in the Bible, in fact, one of the letters to the seven churches of Asia was to the church at Pergamos. Jesus told them that they held to the doctrine of the Nicolaitines, “which thing I hate”. The Nicolaitines was a teaching that the pastor had the right to be the boss of the church. The name itself means, “to lord over the people” and led to, a few hundred years later, the teaching of the Catholic church in Bishops, Cardinals and the Pope having authority over local churches. It is WHOLLY unscriptural and can be abused as well. Just look at the Catholic church.
The thing is not the structure, it is doing the RIGHT thing. If a church has a pedophile as a pastor or other minister and he is caught, the church OUGHT to do the right thing and report his crime to the police and then discipline by excluding him from the membership. I agree that too many churches just “sweep it under the rug” and those men can go to other places and do the same thing. I guess that we are taught to forgive, and we should, but I don’t think the Bible wants us to just act like nothing happened. I think that a church has the right to check out a man’s past and the past church has a responsibility to tell them the truth about a past problem and be honest.
Another level of “red tape” is not going to solve every problem, it will just have people outside of the membership telling a sovereign church what they will do. And that is not what the Bible teaches.
Local church autonomy does not appear in Scripture, except to be rebuked (3John 1). Again, Acts 15 is as clear as it can be. The entire church at large was ruled by representative elders coming together to confer, debate, and agree on doctrine: And this Council was not ruled by the Apostles.
Acts 15: 22-23 clearly state that James’ speech “pleased…the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren: And they wrote letters by them after this manner;….” It was James’ summary and argument that persuaded the group, and clearly this argument or statement from James was carried around before it was decided, for many people knew about it and concurred. So there is no indication in the text that the apostles had the ruling vote and other elders had less say.
So to conclude from this that this type of government would pass away is based on no evidence whatsoever in the text.
In Acts 16:4 (and who knows why the chapter breaks right in the middle of this sequence of events) the text says that Paul “went through the cities, [and] delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.” So no option was given for any local church to teach contrary to the decree of the Jerusalem council.
Also the text clearly stipulates, at least twice, that this final decision came from apostles and elders.
Paul specifically says that upon him rests the care of all the churches, “2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.” That is a statement of both authority and responsibility. So local elders, while they did handle day to day matters, answered upward.
In I Corinthians 11:16, not being at Corinth, but directing the way worship was conducted at Corinth, Paul says, “But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.” Again, Paul is speaking in terms of all city-state churches (which were made up of local assemblies) being united together in agreement ABOUT THE WAY PUBLIC WORSHIP WAS CONDUCTED.
Now, Paul does predict in his writings a time when tongues would cease, and many people conclude that the time for that was when the canon of Scripture was closed. But in that passage, Paul says ” but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away,” but he never says that the current church authority would pass away.
There is no passage in Scripture that predicts that radical church autonomy would replace the oligarchical and representative form of church government practiced in the New Testament. And, indeed, it did not,
Depending on how you define the closed canon of Scripture, the New Testament canon was closed somewhere between 200 AD and 367 AD. But nobody decided that the now the time was right for radical local church autonomy. Even dissenters were still incorporated together. The Waldensians used a presbytery system of church government.
Even John Bunyan and his Baptist buddies were united in a corporate system of Baptist churches that were ruled by a representative board of elders.
The modern system of radical church autonomy is just that, modern.It’s an aberration, and it’s a disgrace. Christians are united into one Body, the Body of Jesus Christ on earth. And that system is the only one that works. It is by the hyper independence of Baptist churches that we have such rampant abuses in both the IFB and SBC. And there is no Biblical basis for their type of church government. It doesn’t exist in Scripture and it is not predicted in Scripture.
Miss Geri,
I wish to ask you a single question, to which I hope you will dignify me with a response.
Can you give me just 3 instances of where Dr. Jack Hyles committed the sin of heresy?
Jeri,
I don’t think that a discussion on church government is sidetracking Bruce’s blog at all. Of course, he can tell us to “quit it!” if he wants, but I think that what we are talking about is what he posted it for. The problem with the IFB “movement” is it is based on preachers and their so called authority with little emphasis on church authority. Many IFB preachers are not held to accountability by their church.
Things are a bit different today than it was in the New Testament days because of two things; first of all, we don’t have the office of apostle today. That was a special office where the men had special revelatory gifts and they were able to speak and write with the full inspiration of the Holy Spirit with them. Second, they didn’t have the completed Word of God (the Canon) and the people were limited in what they could know. Today, of course, we have the ENTIRE Bible as our guide in doctrine and practice and we can use it and ONLY it. If a preacher (or any member for that matter) were to go against the Bible, there would be grounds for church discipline against that person.
Now, a church can call a council to seek advice from fellow pastors on a church issue. I have sat on two of these in the past with different churches. Each time, it was about a pastor who had abused his power (authority) and the church sought advice on what they should do. One time the pastor was there and the other time he was not. The first one was likened to a lawsuit trial. A moderator was elected by the council and witnesses were called and questioned by the members of the council, then deliberation and then the (verdict). Actually, the “verdict” was a compromise to try to get both sides together and work it out, but the pastor would not do it and he resigned on the spot. Problem solved. The other one was a mess because the preacher decided not to come to the meeting and give his “side”, so there was no verdict. We were able to council the church and they fired him that night.
Now, here is the difference between our “association” and most other groups; we CANNOT exercise authority over another church. or a church member. We can advise, but that is it. We believe the final authority lies in the church, PERIOD. Now, each church can then decide whether to break fellowship with that church if they want to. If the church I pastor saw the church do something that was unscriptural and/or not orthodox, we could then refuse to fellowship with them. On a church basis (not accepting transfer of memberships from them or baptisms) or associational (not sitting with them in meetings, that it up to the church.
You used a term that I would not agree with; the word is “confederated church”. I don’t find that in the Bible at all. I find LOCAL churches. Again, things were different then because of the office of apostle and they did have more authority based on that, but when the Bible was completed and compiled, it supplanted the position of apostle. There were associations of churches that would work together, but no church exercised authority over another. They would council together (as the church together with the church at Joppa to determine what Peter did was right or not in Acts 10-11) and make doctinal determinations.
Our association is such that I tell people who visit our church and ask about our “denominational headquarters” and where it is located, I tell them, “Heaven”. If we voted to burn our building down at our next business meeting, nobody would have the authority to stop us, excepting the fire department! LOL!! But our association has NO authority over us in anyway. And that is the scriptural way.
Thanks for the response. God bless!
Yet the Council at Jerusalem was not made up solely of apostles. And Paul appointed Timothy over a region, not a church, and Timothy was not an apostle. Churches that restrict authority to local church only are not following the model laid down in the New Testament. The only way you get around that problem is by “getting around it,” that is, trying to explain it away as you have just tried to do. You are a man who claims to believe the Bible, yet you just defended your form of church government with no Biblical exegesis whatsoever, and no decrees or commands from the Bible to defend your ideas. What you had to do instead, was explain away the model of church government found in the New Testament.
Jerri, I must admit to being puzzled here with what you are saying to me. The time of the apostles and apostolic authority passed away with the completion of the Word of God. Yes, Paul did apoint Timothy to the church at Corinth, but Paul was an apostle and that was his authority. Do you think that churches have a hierarchy of elders today that make the decisions on what a local church is to do and the church MUST abide by it? If so, you need to give me some scripture for it. All I need to give you is Matt. 16:19, where Jesus is speaking of the authority of the church by saying, “I will give unto thee (the church, not Peter) the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.” He then emphasizes it again ch. 18:18-19, “Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” That is not speaking of pastors or even apostles, that is talking about the body of Christ, the Local Church. On one hand, you criticize IFB for their pastors having TOO MUCH authority and “lording” over the church and then you criticize me for saying that the ultimate authority is IN THE LOCAL CHURCH and not in a pastor. I must admit to being puzzled.
BTW, if you want to see the model for a church conducting the business for themselves, you can go to Acts 1, where they had a business meeting and the people chose Matthias to take Judas Iscariots place as an apostle. It was not the apostles that did it, the entire church did it. That is very clear in Acts 1:15-26. There were 120 members of that church gathered together in the upper room who chose Matthias.
Yet the apostles instituted plural eldership and a ruling council of elders even in light of having personally heard Christ say that He is present when any two or three of His people gather in His name. Yes, Acts 1:15-26 works great when the are only 120 people that the apostles knew about in all of Christendom. But then there’s the REST of the book of Acts. And then there’s the rest of the entire New Testament, which describes the oligarchical and yet representative governmental structure of the New Testament Church. Go read Acts 15, in which the ruling council of elders heard the disputing over doctrine, made a decision, and made that decision binding upon all Christendom.
Then go read every single book of the new Testament, written to individuals in some cases and to city-state churches in some cases, but binding upon all of Christendom.
The model set down in the New Testament is not a local church autonomous model. And you cannot find Scripture to support that model. The New Testament give us examples of elders failing in at east three places, lays out for us the problem of frailty that requires accountability. and demonstrates communication of reprimand ACROSS CHURCH LINES. Paul rebuked Peter in public at Antioch and recorded it in the book of Galatians. Nothing was hidden behind local church walls. Indeed, it is clear that local assemblies came together in city-state assemblies that were addressed as “the church.”
There is no Scripture that says that this pluralistic, interdependent, oligarchical, and representative system should change after the finalization of Scripture. The only way you can defend it is to reason away the Scripture or pull verses out of context.
NO, I am not the one who is pulling scriptures from context. The context is there. You just don’t want to see it. There were churches in the New Testament who had a plurality of pastors, but that was not to have a hierarchy, it was because they were so large. And a council of elders was used in the New Testament, on several occasions, to answer doctrinal questions that arose. Remember, the canon of the scripture was not completed yet and the people did not have a Bible to consult when these questions arose. As for their judgements “being binding on all Christendom”, it was because that was the inspired Word Of God. The Holy Spirit led them, under his inspiration to make those decisions and they became part of the scripture.
I have been on a couple of church councils in my 30 years of pastoring. We were asked to clarify something that had arisen in a local church and ADVISE them what to do. When we went into our deliberation, all of the elders (pastors) too our Bibles out and consulted them and came back with a SCRIPTURAL answer for the people. But, that was not under inspiration and it was not “binding” on them or any other church. They had to agree to abide by it. But, if they had chosen not to do it, it was not rebellion against a bunch of preachers, it was rebellion against the Word Of God.
It was still up to the local church! It’s really a lot simpler than you make it.
Marty, what your council did has nothing to do with what the Bible commands. The fact that your council advices local churches does not mean that the Council at Jerusalem merely advised local churches. As this discussion on biblical church government has turned into three separate sub threads, all essentially discussing the same thing, I have placed my answer here (elsewhere in the comments):
http://brucegerencser.net/2012/10/16/ifb-pastor-bob-gray-shows-his-true-colors/comment-page-1/#comment-4178
Jeri, any woman who blasts and stays on these bastards like you do, is a SUPER HOTTIE in my book!!!! *Sigh*
I became a Christian on May 10,1998 at the age of 22. It was the first time I had ever heard that Jesus Christ died for my sins, was buried and rose again. I repented of my sin the best way I knew how and trusted in Christ and in Him alone to pay my sin debt to God. And yes it was in an independent Baptist Church that I accepted Christ was later baptized and discipled. As I look over the past 14 years of being a Christian I thank God for good Bible preaching churches. Do I think there are no problems in some churches? Sure. Do I think there are problems in other churches that are no way affiliated with the Baptist name? Yes. Do I think that there are issues and problems in other “organized religions” that no nothing of Chrst at all? Of course. But anywhere you have people you are going to have problems, sin, scandals etc. Does that make it ok and we should turn a blind eye to it? Absolutely not. People in any leadership position should be held accountable for what they do. Period.
And before you ask I have been hurt in church before. I have known pastors personally who have made mistakes and have hurt their congregation and the cause of Christ greatly. Why those like yourself and others choose to portray that every “IFB” church is likened to a church where the pastor is “lord” over “his” people to the point where he can do and say whatever he wants and “no one will dare touch gods anointed” is completely FALSE! By the way I guarantee you that there are people that attend First Baptist of Hammond every Sunday and Wednesday and are helped in getting through the loss of their mother or are helped in understanding what it takes to get off drugs or alcohol or someone who before they walked into the church feeling they had no purpose in
Life and no one cared for them walked out that day or night knowing that God cared for them and so did the people at that church. Because of that they decided to not go home that night murder thier small children and then take their own life! There is sometimes wicked things that go on in the lives of pastors and church members alike. If you are going to live your life “reporting on” and mocking the “evils” the HORRIBLE “IFB” have committed over the years I ask one thing of you. With every single “report or
blog” you publish make sure you add the literal MILLIONS and MILLIONS of GREAT things and outcomes that God has done through the years in Independant Fundamental Baptist churches throughout the world. If you have any trouble finding some of the good things in IFB churches (which if you really did as much of your investigating that instead of the downfall and sin of certain men who have failed) then please email me back and I can could give you a good head start. You know, I could of quoted Bible verses to you and said all these “spiritual” things but It would of done no good. I just hope you, as you would like all your readers to do, and that is to really open up your eyes to what is going on in the multitudes of IFB churches which is overwhelmingly good instead of those much, much, much smaller numbers of fallen people who have hurt others. Again and please hear me. We should always hold people accountable for their wrongs no matter what. There must be consequences for wrong. My challenge to you is report or blog on the whole picture and realize there is not enough time in life to constantly waste it by continually pointing out the same errors of people over and over and over again. By the way I see you are an atheist and understand that school of thought. I know that people who don’t believe in God can be morally great people. I know also that there are some things that you have done that you hope someone never finds out and blogs about it over and over and over and over again. Not trying to be smart just provoking thought. Thank you for taking the time to read. Any question or comment i welcome. (email addresses removed)
Thank you for the comment.
I hope you will take the time to read http://brucegerencser.net/series/my-journey-eternity-here/ to better understand where I am coming from. You are aware that I was in the IFB for most of my life and that I was a pastor?
I am sure there are fine people in the IFB church movement. However, the IFB church movement’s foundational doctrines and its ecclesiology lends itself to cultism and psychological and emotional abuse. I would NEVER encourage someone to attend an IFB church. In fact, I encourage people to leave such churches.
I am an IFB insider, Steve. I know what goes on behind the scenes. I get many emails from people in IFB churches who are desperately trying to find a way out. They are mentally and emotionally distraught. I try to help them any way I can. Lots of former IFB church members read this blog. They will tell a far different story than the one you tell here.
If you are happy in the IFB church and it gives you meaning and purpose…that’s fine. I just think there are better places for people to have their spiritual needs met. Places where they won’t be mentally and emotionally abused. Places where they won’t be beat over the head with the sin stick.
Bruce
Bruce,
You say you are an “insider” to the IFB movement. If that is true, what made you leave? It can not be that you believe every IFB church is part of a cult, for that is surely not true. I myself have grown up in the IFB movement, have attended both Hyles Anderson College and Crown College, as well as working with Texas Baptist College now in a non religious way. ( I employ several of their students and church members in my company).
While it is true that pastors of IFB churches do commit sins, and there are several instances of sexual sin, abuse, and even cases where a pastor exalts himself above what God would have him be, are there not cases of such evil in EVERY other denomination? I give you Jimmy Swaggart…charismatic…Pentecostal…Adulterer. Numerous Catholic priests, cardinals, and other leaders. Need I go on? It is not a case of IFB “nutcases”. It is a case of sinful human beings who choose to commit evil acts under the guise of being God’s servants.
What do you mean IF that is true. It is, and to some degree, even though I am many years removed from it, I still am. (due to family being a part of the IFB)
Are you really going to use the, it happens everywhere, excuse? Yes, it happens everywhere, and everywhere includes IFB churches.
The IFB church movement has cultic tendencies. I have never said they are a cult. Others have, but I don’t go that far.
Several instances? How about hundreds and hundreds. How about all the abuse that went on in Mack Ford’s and Lester Roloff’s homes for wayward teens? How about Jack Hyles, David Hyles, and Jack Schaap? How about Bob Gray? How about the IFB pastors who are mentioned most every month in the Black Collar Crime Blotter put out by the Freedom From Religion Foundation? How about the numerous pastors, evangelists, professors I personally know?
There are reasons these things go on…lack of institutional transparency. Single pastor control of the church. No clearinghouse for churches to check on pastors who have committed crimes or left a church or been dismissed due to their behavior.
The IFB church movement is built on a foundation of exalting men. It is part of their DNA, complete with portraits hanging on the wall of church, Hall of Fame’s that glorify preachers, singing Bibles like a celebrity, etc, etc. Shall I go on?
Not sure if you read my posts on Jack Schaap and Jack Hyles. http://brucegerencser.net/series/jack-hyles-and-jack-schaap/
Thank you for commenting.
Bruce
Just wait til ‘ol Pastor Bob gets wind of this. thumbs up to both of ya!
I dunno. I answered him back on Monday, and last I saw, he has not been able to come up with anything else to say to me. Then again, maybe it has not occurred to him that he’s made himself look foolish and gross.
Sigh. When you guys blast Gray, it makes
me swoon *SIGH**
Ok, I have replied to several comments above, and I hope to hear back on them. However, I want to make a definite point here and now.
I attended Hyles Anderson college during DR. Jack Schaap’s tenure as the pastor and chancellor. I was helped by his ministry, I saw lives changed by his ministry, and I know for a fact the man had an impact on many other people during his time there.
However, Jack Schaap proved his humanity when he gave in to lust and committed an adulterous act with an underage girl. But, before you condemn him as being completely responsible…I ask you: Was this girl old enough to know what she was doing as well?
Yes she was. She is JUST as guilty as Jack Schaap. To make her out to be a victim is a fallacy and it’s sad.
Also…how dare you judge a whole group of people by the acts of a few? I bet you are the same people who would scream out if someone said that all African Americans are criminals because many of our prison inmates have black skin. Or, if someone said that ALL American soldiers are baby killers because of the horrible acts performed by a few men in VietNam. Who do you think you are to judge an entire denomination of God loving people?
This is the epitome of close minded, religious discrimination. You have become so focused on “blasting Gray” that you forget that a Christian should be focused on bringing people to Christ. NOWHERE in scripture will you find a place where God says it is ok to bash pastors, tear apart the work done by churches, or criticize the man of God. In fact, those who criticized Elisha were eaten by bears. David would not strike Saul for he was the man God had anointed to be king of Israel. How dare you attack the man of God? Whoever he may be! If you have no proof of someone being involved in immoral sin, doctrinal heresy, or direct violation of the scripture…then you have NO right to openly criticize them. Read your Bible again.
To the person who professed atheism, I pray for you. To turn your back on God must have been one of the hardest decisions of your life. I am sure you must be tormented with that choice each day.
Jeri, I pray for you as well, that God would break your heart over your gossiping, backbiting ways.
In the New Testament Jesus was brought a woman caught in the act of adultery. The religious leaders of that time wanted to stone her publicly, as the law said she should be put to death. Yet, Christ, in His infinite love, said “no”. He chose to give her the chance to reconcile her sins. He said instead, “let him without sin cast the first stone”. Therefore, I say to all of you: If you are perfect. If you have never told a lie, lost your temper, been guilty of speeding, or looked at a woman you were not married to and thought impure thoughts. If you have NEVER done anything wrong in your entire life, then I open the floor for you to criticize these men. Otherwise, don’t profess to be a Christian while you are openly in sin yourself.
On a side note, I am appalled at the language used by some of those who profess to be Christians in their posts. Clean up your mouth before you place my Saviour’s name in it again. Thank You
Sigh, as usual, A Christian who reads one post and doesn’t bother to even check WHO the blogger is. I am an atheist, a former Evangelical pastor for 25 years. Many of the readers of this blog are atheists. My focus, however, is on people who considering leaving Christianity or who have already left Christianity. Please check out The Leaving the Faith Project. http://leavingthefaith.com
Swearing is permitted on this blog. Preaching and Bible thumping is not. You are free to comment on the posts but you are not free to bash people over the head with your pontificating and Bible verse quoting.
I also will not permit you to blame the girl in the Jack Schaap case. He was an adult man, a pastor, her counselor. All the culpability lies with him. He manipulated her. If you have not read my posts on this please do so. http://brucegerencser.net/series/jack-hyles-and-jack-schaap/
As to your assertion that we atheists are tormented. Not in the least. The best thing I never did was to see God in the rear view mirror of my life.
So, spare us the righteous indignation and Bible thumping. It has no power here. This is my house, my rules. Play by them or keep moving on.
Bruce
It’s always so easy to blame the girl. Thank you for standing up for her Bruce.
Yep. She as a minor. He was a 53 year old pastor, a person of authority. HE controlled what happened. He had the power to not do what he did. I find it utterly amazing that people can’t see this and blame the girl instead. (especially after reading his letters and texts to her)