Growing up, I was pretty naïve about matters of sex. The churches I attended were all Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches and every one of them preached against petting, premarital sex, masturbation, and looking at pornography. Most of the churches forbade physical contact between teen boys and girls, quoting verses like 1 Corinthians 7:1, Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman as justification for their no-touching rule.
I dated quite a bit, and though I “made out” with a few girls, things never went too far. When I married my wife in 1978, both of us were virgins. While Independent Fundamentalist Baptist preachers like to think that their harsh preaching and puritanical standards keep teens from having sex, I have found out, by talking to people I was friends with in the various churches I attended, that teens having sex was the norm and my wife and I being virgins was the exception to the rule.
I was married before I ever bought and looked at a pornographic magazine. One day while Polly was at school I bought a pornographic magazine. The magazine was quite an eye-opener! I later bought another magazine and I hid both magazines above the attic access hole in our apartment closet. I wonder if the magazines are still there?
I lived in the Midwestern Baptist College dorm for two years before Polly and I married. Several nights a week I would pick up one of my dorm roommates from work. He worked in downtown Pontiac for the local newspaper. At the time, downtown Pontiac was in steep decline and that decline attracted adult oriented businesses and prostitutes.
One such adult business was an adult theater/strip club. One night I left early to pick up my roommate and I decided to go to the adult theater/strip club. I watched a typical 1970’s era porn movie and after the movie was finished they had a local talent night strip contest. What I saw that night, some 35 years ago, was quite provocative and exciting.
The highlight of the night came as I was leaving the place. Coming out a door near me was one of the deacons of Emmanuel Baptist Church, the church I attended while in college. We both saw each other, put our heads down, and never said a word about it to each other.
The next time I went to a strip club was 17 years later. At the time I was between churches(this means I was looking for a church to pastor) and I was working in Zanesville, Ohio managing a Charley’s Steakery restaurant in the Colony Square Mall. One night I decided to go to a strip club that had recently opened east of Zanesville. Imagine my surprise when on to the stage came an attractive young woman who just so happened to eat at my restaurant.
Fortunately, she did not notice me, but the next time she came to my restaurant I felt a bit guilty thinking, I have seen more of you than you think I have.
While both of these forays into the adult entertainment world were exciting, I had a lot of guilt over what I considered my “secret” sins. I feared being “found out” by my wife. For many years I thought that my going to a strip club or looking at a pornographic magazine was because of some deep moral and spiritual defect in me. It has only been since I left Christianity that I have come to really understand the male sex drive and I now understand that many of the desires the Independent Baptist Church labeled as “lust” or “sin” are really part of being a normal, heterosexual male.
At the time I had a lot of guilt because I was studying for the ministry or I was in the ministry and I knew a pastor shouldn’t be looking at pornographic magazines or going to strip clubs. Now I know that such behavior is actually quite common, not only among men in general, but among pastors.
Once I deconverted I was forced to reexamine what I really believed about human sexuality. I now subscribed to the belief that whatever consenting adults do it is their own business. Even in marriage, it is up to the couple to negotiate what the sexual parameters are.
How about you? Do you have a story to share? Do you think less of me because I have shared this story? What is your sexual ethic?
While I’ve never had a naughty thought in my whole life, you might check out Marjoe Gortner’s biography, Marjoe, which details many of his escapades with preachers’ daughters. You’ve probably seen the documentary of the same name. It’s been on YouTube.
I mentioned before Austin Miles’ three books. Don’t Call Me Brother goes into detail on similar goings on at PTL. (He’s since converted back to Christianity.)
I’d love to hear Polly’s take on this. Maybe one day she’ll agree to it.!
I married the only person I’ve ever had sex with but I wasn’t a virgin when we got married. That makes me kind of weird in my predominately non-Christian circle of friends.
Most – but not all – of them have had more than one partner. Some only have sex in the context of a longterm, committed relationship, others have friends-with-benefits arrangements.
And my Christian friends either were virgins when they got married or seem to be just a little shocked that nothing bad happened to me when I had premarital sex.
I think you and I have very similar sexual ethics. I’m fine with any arrangement other adults make so long as it’s consensual.
Polly is working on a post.
While we were virgins when we married, we both agree that if our engagement had gone on much longer it likely would have resulted in us “not” being virgins on our wedding day.
I find it quite interesting to talk to people I knew years ago in the church youth group. I “assumed” everyone was like me….not true at all. There was quite a bit of sexual activity going on.
Bruce
If it’s your only outlet, it can be financially draining
Bruce,
I have been following your posts for a few weeks now. At first I thought you might be just an anti Jack Hyles fundamentalist. Now I find out we have even more similarities. I am a secular christian. I just do not like to use the A word to describe myself. I still like a lot of what is in the bible I just do not believe in the miraculous anymore. Come on Bruce you have to give Hyles some credit for giving a speech. He builds up momentum does his 4 to 5 lines(describe it somewhat like a chorus) breaks with a small joke and then builds it up again. It is a lost art. He could have been governor of Indiana or been a zig ziglar dennis waitley motivational speaker or a superbowl winning coach. There is a lot to admire about Jack Hyles. Shame he was the answer to the riddle “what do you get when you cross vince lombardi with Jim Jones” That was really hard to write the programming really goes deep . All the best Bruce.
Hey Jeff,
I agree with you about Hyles. A tremendous speaker. I heard a lot of great orators in the IFB church, men who had a real way with words. I worked very hard at being a good speaker, spending hours every week honing my craft. I like to think, and others have told me so, that I was an above average speaker.
One of the things that depressed me when we visited mainline churches was that there were no great orators. Most of the preachers were bland, boring, and lacked emotion. Terrible preaching skills.
I still love hearing a good sermon. Sometimes I will turn to a Christian TV station and listen to preachers like Rod Parsley. What a preacher, what an orator, and yes, what a nut job.
You know Jimmy Swaggart was probably one of the best preachers who used yelling sparingly. It was a different style than the IFB sword churches, but what a performance. The walk and talk was truly mastered.
He was even a better singer. If he had signed with Sam Phillips he would have been a rock and roll legend. I really believe that. His voice at 78 is still good. His vices weren’t smoking and drinking which took a tremendous toll on Merle Haggard.
Jimmy Swaggart is still alive?
Huh.
I have a comment to leave for you, but have to dash out the door for work. Hopefully it will be amusing when I come back and actually write it.
Looking forward to it.
In 1981, I weent to Hyles’ Pastors School in Hammond. I heard some great preachers, but none were better than Hyles. One night he preached a sermon entitles “When To Fight And When Not To Fight” based on the rebuilding of the walls in Jerusalem under Nehemiah. Basically it was a sermon critical of “The Moral Majority” which was in it’s heyday then. He preached for over an hour and it seemed like 20 minutes! I have it on tape somewhere and still listen to it from time to time. You ain’t seen nothing unless you see 9000 preachers “turned on” by a sermon! (and that is NOT sexual, in case you think)
I also saw my share of lies that week. AND preacher worshipping!!!! The preacher I went there with and I stayed in the home of a church member and it was something. We saw at least a dozen framed pictures of Hyles all over the house that had the caption, “That’s My Preacher!” printed on it. These people LOVED (to the tenth power) their pastor! I don’t have a problem with that, but worship is reserved for God. Pure and simple.
Curtis Hutson was also there. At the time he was editor of “The Sword Of The Lord”, the leading publication of IFB’s. He’s never been my favorite preacher, and his sermon was simply a sermon deifying Hyles. He said that there was no doubt that the FBC of Hammond, Indiana was the greatest church since the Church at Jerusalem! He also talked about a great church being built on a great man. He even compared the Church at Jerusalem being built on Christ and FBC, Hammond being built on Jack Hyles! He then said this; he expected the FBC of Hammond to die when Jack Hyles died, since the church was built upon him!! There were 9000 preachers there and 8999 were shouting and hollering “AMEN, AMEN!” I think I was the only one there who thought “Say what????” I think it was that moment that I first thought, “This is not a church, this is a CULT!”
Now, did that realization cause me to doubt God, the Bible and Christians? NO! It caused me to doubt the character of Jack Hyles and I “divorced” myself from following him. I know A LOT of IFB’s and most of them are Godly men who are trying to reach people with the Gospel. They minister to people at any hour of the day or night and are on call continually. Those are the men that we need to help and admire.
Marty,
Dr. Hutson did have an unique style. I use to purchase his tapes from the sword and loved reading his articles. His sermon book on salvation crystal clear is still on my shelf. What I liked about him is that he did love Jack hyles and John R Rice he wasn’t an Elvis impersonator. He was a former mail man who started winning souls and the passion burned. He actually was inspired to become a preacher by hearing a sermon by Jack Hyles. Was he blinded by Hyles perhaps(that programming kicks in again) but there have been people in my life who I admired so much that I could never believe anything could be wrong with them. I think that is being human. Loved your article Marty.
Jeff
In my young adulthood i lived in a poly amorous home. It was good for a while. Lots of love and yes sex. I sometimes miss my large “family” some things just dont last
What kind of relationship – if any – are you in these days?
Some of those Seventies adult movies even had a plot to them! LOL Agree with everything you have said, here. Suppressing what is natural is only going to lead to problems. Better for the married couple to works out the parameters beforehand.
I always liked going to Ohio to visit relatives. I would always look for the Zanesville sign because it’s almost spelled like my town, Janesville. Paul’s from Janesville, too. We’re not all like him BTW.
So what I was going to say earlier… I have known for a long long time that men are visual! It sounds like something to file under ‘duh’ but it’s amazing how many women are insulted that their men look at other women. I have always been fine with it, looking isn’t harmful as far as I know.
It’s never bothered me, I’m the one he comes home to. He looks, but he doesn’t touch.
About 20 years ago,my hubby was working for a different company, and most Friday evenings the guys went to the nearest (pardon me, but this is what they called it) ‘Titty Bar’.
This was before everyone had a cell phone. So they all waited in line to use the company phone designated for personal use and one by one they called their wives.
And one by one the guys lied to their wives. Car broke down, need to change a tire, have to work late, staying extra to do an inventory… I guess the 8 or so of them got pretty creative.
Then Eric would get his turn on the phone. He’d call me.
“Hi Sweetheart, we’re gonna go have a few beers at the titty bar, see you in a couple hours.”
“Okay, have fun, here’s hoping you don’t see what you saw that one time, love you.”
And week after week, none of the guys believed he was actually talking to his wife. Finally one week he handed the telephone to the next guy in line and said, “Here, talk to her.”
And he found out there was an actual wife on the other end of the line.
Because I don’t know your audience, I will not tell you what he saw ‘that one time’ but it was truly spectacular. Heehee.
I don’t have a problem with whatever consenting adults want to look at, touch, or do as long as it doesn’t harm anyone. Why should it even matter to anyone?
It’s definitely not natural to try to hide or ignore one’s sexuality. And piling on guilt over something that IS natural is a sad state of affairs.
Thanks for sharing this.
Years ago I was counseling a girl whose sister attended our church. She professed to be a Christian. One day she told me about her husband going to “titty’ bars with his friends. She was OK with it because that’s what guys do. I was shocked…She took your approach, hey he always comes home to me.
At the time, I thought such a view was scandalous and immoral. I now see the wisdom and value of such a view. I must be taken over by Satan now.
Jeff, you said, “there have been people in my life who I admired so much that I could never believe anything could be wrong with them.” I know what you mean, but that is a very dangerous position. We need to “try the spirits whether they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” I Jn. 4:1. I have admired a lot of preachers in my life and there is nothing wrong with that, but we have to be careful. One of the problems with Jack Hyles, and I heard him preach this in a hundred sermons, he would not believe anything negative about a brother unless he witnessed it himself. Now, I don’t believe in spreading gossip, but, if it is something that is about someone that is a leader in the work, questions are not bad. Find out the truth and then go forward with that. The Hyles stripe of Baptists have covered up for a lot of men and the result is the destruction of a lot of lives and the faith of many others.
Just my experience…My ex thought there was no harm no foul in going to the strip clubs with the boys until a women’s club opened up and the girls and I went a few times to check out the male strippers…And strip they did, all the way down to their birthday suits and in a very aroused state! Eventually the club was shut down by vice, even though there was nothing going on that was any different than what went on at the gentleman’s clubs. But I’ve digressed a bit…Ex got all up-tight about it and started bargining that he wouldn’t go to the strip clubs if I wouldn’t. Funny how he could justify his natural urge for visual stimulation, but had a problem with me admiring the six-pack hard body of the opposite sex…
Diana,
Yes, hypocrisy is something that is easy to spot in others, but quite another thing to see in our own selves. And, I hate to admit this, MEN are very adept in the old “double standard” mode. To be honest, I’ve never understood it either.
This is hilarious.
I suspect a lot of men have the same double standard.
I am soooooo glad I am “stronger” than losers like you, Bruce and other men! Never been to an Adult bookstore or Strip Club!! Oooooh! Who’s the man!!!
(Ok, I read my first “Hustler” at 11 years old, though!!! DOH!!) And have loved the beautiful female body ever since!!
When I was still a Christian, my church would preach often against lust – it was never directed towards females however unless in the context of “he doesn’t love you if he wants sex before marriage”.
I grew up believing sex in the marriage bed would essentially be legal rape – pleasure for my future husband and pain I would have to endure…
Needless to say I decided I would never want to marry.
Ironically when I was 17, I was in an all female bible study group (from 15, there were no mixed groups) and my leader’s preaching against romance novels. I’d never read one because my books were vetted by my mother and she would destroy them if their covers or summaries seemed wrong in any form…even if it was some weird looking alien on a scifi book.
My female bible study leader and the other girls “confessed and repented” over their liking of kissing scenes(because they apparently lead to premarital sex scenes) in romance novels awakened me to the idea that “GIRLS lust too??!! which means…sex could be enjoyable for women?!”
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With my and my late husband there was a simple rule. Look but don’t touch. We’re sexual being, that is simply how God made us. I agree completely with being faithful to your partner but telling someone not to have fantasies or sexual thoughts is unproductive at best.