Recently, a discussion about ecclesiology erupted in the comment section of one of my posts. For those not schooled in the iologies of theology, the word ecclesiology means:
The branch of theology concerned with the nature and the constitution and the functions of a church.
There are three types of church government (polity) :
- Congregational
- Episcopal
- Presbyterian
Congregational church government is defined as:
Congregational polity draws its name from the independence of local congregations from the authority and control of other religious bodies. Paige Patterson has summarized congregational polity as follows:
“The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church defines “congregationalism” as “that form of Church polity which rests on the independence and autonomy of each local church.” According to this source, the principles of democracy in church government rest on the belief that Christ is the sole head of his church, the members are all priests unto God, and these units are regarded each as an outcrop and representative of the church universal.” (Who Runs the Church?: 4 Views on Church Government, Steven B. Cowan, gen. ed., p. 135, Zondervan 2004)
Churches organized with a congregational polity may be involved in conventions, districts or associations which allow them to share common beliefs, cooperate in joint ministry efforts and regulate clergy with other congregations. Churches organized with a congregational polity generally disapprove of acknowledging authority in councils or other proceedings involving delegates or representatives from outside the local congregation. However, congregational polity does not prevent a local congregation’s leadership from adopting the decision or position of another congregation or a council or other gathering.
Churches which operate with this form of polity include Baptists, Church of Christ, independent Evangelical Churches.
Episcopal church government is defined as:
Episcopal refers to a form of church government in which the office of Bishop is a key authoritative role. The word episcopal is from the Greek word for bishop. In this system, the local church is part of a hierarchy of clergy who oversee and govern the church denomination. This usually involves regional (diocese) bishops headed up by an Archbishop.
Denominations which operate with this form of polity include Eastern Orthodoxy, the Roman Catholic Church, Anglicanism, Methodism, and Lutheranism.
Presbyterian church government is defined as:
Common in Presbyterian and Reformed churches, this form of church government is commonly described as “Elder-run” or “Presbyter-run”.
Typically, original authority–that is the authority that the church believes Christ gave to it–is said to reside at the local elder level in this model of polity. Thus the “highest” authority in a presbyterian or reformed church (after Christ) is said to be the Elders of the church. Those elders are typically elected by the congregation on a periodic basis (usually a term lasts about 3 years). Sometimes elders are elected by the drawing of lots.
Those who are elected to office serve their terms as the spiritual/theological/moral/visionary leaders of the congregation. They also then participate in the governance of the regional body of churches (sometimes called a “classis”) by sending delegates to a classis meeting on a regular basis. The “classical” level of church governance, in the presbyterian model, is not a higher authority, but rather is seen as a “delegated” authority–one that only derives it’s power from the acquiescence of the Elders at the local level.
In a similar manner, Classis will send a select number of delegates to a still broader body of authority, sometimes called a Synod. The Synod will meet regularly (yearly, for example) to discuss major issues of theology and practice facing the whole denomination. Synod too, however, does not have a “higher” authority, except insofar as its “delegated” authority is accepted by classes and local Elders.
These are general definitions and many churches and denominations have polity peculiarities that make it difficult to categorize them.
Since I was a Baptist pastor for many years, it is not uncommon to find Baptist church members and pastors commenting on what I write. Recently, a commenter defended the polity of the Baptist church. Another commenter objected and said the congregational form of church government could not be supported from the Bible. Yes it can. No it can’t. Yes it can.
I no longer have a dog in the ecclesiology fight. As an atheist I find great amusement when Christians of differing viewpoints appeal to the Bible to “prove” their view. Proof texts abound. Every person is certain they are right and the other person is w-r-o-n-g. If there is ONE thing I know about the Bible it is this…you can prove most anything with the Bible. The Bible is like the shape-shifters on TrueBlood. A shape-shifter is able to change into different animal of human forms and the Bible is just like that. Under the power, control, and interpretation of a Christian, the Bible can be made to say most anything.
Knowing what I know and have experienced as a Christian and a pastor, I think the congregational form of church government is a bad idea. With little to no oversight, churches and pastors can, and often do, act in ways that are abusive and harmful to church members. That said, I don’t think the episcopal or presbyterian form of church government is necessarily any better. It can be, depending on the checks and balances that are in place. The Roman Catholic Church has one of the most structured governmental systems around, yet the Roman Catholic Church is rife with abuse and criminal cover-ups. (and I am at a loss to understand how anyone can remain a Catholic)
What matters to me is what churches and denominations actually do. I am not interested in the various theological arguments for or against a particular ecclesiology. What matters is how business is conducted and what oversight and checks and balances are in place.
No church or denomination is immune from abuse taking place. What matters is how charges of abuse are handled. Do church leaders try to handle the charges internally? Do they consider abuse charges a matter of church discipline? How willing are they to involve the police, human services, or child protective services when a church member, church leader, or pastor is accused of abuse?
Generally, I do not advise people to attend Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches, nor do I advise people to attend Southern Baptist churches or independent Evangelical, Charismatic and Pentecostal churches. My reason for this advice is quite simple. There is no control or oversight and abuse claims are often handled internally or considered a “church issue” and not anyone else’s business.
Often, the only thing that matters is maintaining the church’s “testimony.” Better to bury an abuse claim than ruin the church’s reputation in the community.
Another concern I have is over the emotional, mental, and spiritual abuse that often takes place in these churches. God called, God ordained, authoritarian pastors, armed with an inerrant, infallible Bible, routinely abuse and manipulate parishioners. While such abuse is not criminal, it is harmful and the cause of incalculable pain and suffering. (as email after email from abused Christians tell me)
With the advent of the internet (and that’s an advent I can believe in) what has been done in secret is now being exposed. No longer can churches and pastors routinely misuse and abuse church members without fear of exposure. Church members can now take to the internet and find places to publicly share their story. One can only hope that such exposure will force change and, if necessary, result in criminal prosecution.
I am sure some well-intentioned commenter is going to try to tell me why their church, denomination, or pastor is not like this and that I am painting with too broad of a brush. I am sure someone will tell me that I shouldn’t judge everyone because of the actions of a few.
Don’t bother. I am immune to such verbiage and I know better. I have seen too much and I know too much. I have talked with too many people and I have had countless email interactions with people who have been misused and abused.
Such things are not limited to Christianity, as the recent Boy Scout revelations show. We should be concerned about abuse no matter where it happens and no matter who is doing it. My focus is on Evangelicalism because it is what I am most familiar with and I much better informed about what goes inside Evangelical churches. As I have often said, I know where the bodies are buried.
Bruce,
Since you claim to no longer believe in the existence of God, I am sure that the government of a church is something that you don’t care about. I really don’t care about it either because that is not the problem. It’s not a church problem, it is a PERSONAL problem. Are people in church MORE apt to commit moral crimes than teachers, lawyers, policemen or anyone else? NO! People are people. And there are hypocrites EVERYWHERE! A policeman who takes a bribe and BREAKS THE LAW is a hypocrite. A teacher, who is supposed to be dedicated to helping children, but is found having sex with one is a hypocrite.
Here is what you said that I agree with; you said that “What matters to me is what churches and denominations actually do.” I can agree with that. But, again, it still deals with people. Sure, a lot of churches will try to sweep it under the rug for fear of “bad press”. But, does that happen in other groups of people or is it limited to IFB groups? Of course not! We’ve seen in the news of police departments who try to coverup a crime a police officer commits. The medical field is rife with this. Teachers? Yep! The news media? Sure! EVERYONE hates to deal with the failures of their peers. We all like to think that we are above that type of behavior.
Now, here is the issue; why is it different for clergy than for a steelworker down at the mill? You can pick up a newspaper and read about pedophiles or child porn offenders all the time. On page 16, the headline will read: “Man arrested for having sex with 11 year old boy”. It will be just a half column article and, about halfway down, it will mention that he works for US Steel. Okay, well and good. BUT, on page 1, for two full columns, it will read, in big bold black, “Baptist Pastor arrested for having sex with 11 year old boy”. It will detail, not only he is a pastor, but will name the church he pastors, The steelworker was just a “40 year old man” but the pastor is a “40 year old Pastor of First Baptist Church” and will list the college he went to, the other churches he pastored, and seek out comments from church members, neighbors, etc.
Now, and I am going to shock you, is that fair? Yes it is! There is a greater level of trust placed in a ministers hand than a steelworker. And, when a man of God betrays that, he ought to be exposed. Pure and simple. Now, here is where it is unfair. No one wants to praise those people who ARE NOT doing those types of things. The sacrifices are not spoken of. I have read several of your posts here for the last few weeks and I don’t remember you saying anything good about any of your pastor friends that you have known. Are all of them pedophiles? Are all of them child abusers? Are all of them thieves? I don’t think so. Were you any of those things BEFORE you left the ministry? You see, even though you may not be a minister now, you were one time and I am sure that you did a lot of good things for the people that you pastored. I am sure that you would hear where you heard of people saying things like “all preachers are liars” or “all preachers just want money” or the like and it made you mad. I hear it all the time and I take exception to it.
There are a few that abuse the ministry and the trust that were placed in them, but they are A FEW. Many more are laboring away trying to comfort the bereaved, minister to the sick and help people with their problems. They don’t steal, they don’t abuse kids, they love their people in a Godly way and they do a lot of good. They don’t make headlines in the paper, but they will be praised by our Lord one day.
Marty,
Keep telling yourself that they are few. Every month the Freedom From Religion Foundation prints in their newsletter dozens and dozens of reports of pastors, church leaders, and church members who are accused of abuse, theft, and even capital crimes. And these are only the ones that got caught.
The reason for the “Baptist pastor arrested” headline is simple. Religions like Christianity say they are the moral authority, that they speak for God. The steelworker makes no such claim. Preachers pontificates about God’s moral standard and the evils of American culture. They rant and rave about sex…sticking their nose into the lives of others. So, when these paragons of moral virtue get caught with their pants down it is news.
If religions, churches, and pastors, would stop their moralizing and stick to helping those who want their help, I suppose the “Baptist pastor arrested” headlines would go away. But…this isn’t going to happen, is it? So, please forgive us when we find some perverse pleasure when reading a report about the local Baptist pastor getting a blow job by a prostitute in back of the adult bookstore.
Bruce
Hi Bruce,
“If religions, churches, and pastors, would stop their moralizing and stick to helpong those who need help, then … ”
Well said.
John Arthur
Ouch, Brucedude!! (But nice rebuttal! I, too get pleasure when one of these pious, arrogant pricks gets nailed for something).
The issue of Christian behavior and how it either proves or disproves the doctrine of an indwelling spirit can be broken down into 2 subissues –
1. The level of egregious, criminal, or abusive behavior (Marty says it’s only a few bad apples, Bruce disagrees)
2. The level of behavior that we would consider saintly or beyond that of a typical person
It’s the second one that is more important to me. If there are a large number of Christians who are NOT criminals or abusers, what credit is that to Christianity? That’s not really something to be proud of. If someone is a Christian and has the Holy Spirit in them, they need to be far better behaved than the non-Christian, or else they have no grounds to claim that God is living inside them.
On another site someone said it doesn’t matter if a famous Christian has an affair, because Einstein had an affair too, and it didn’t falsify his work. But it isn’t the famous Christian’s work that is affected, but rather his claim of having God living inside him. If you claim God lives inside you, then have to live far more morally than the ones who don’t have God inside them, or else your claim is false.
This is why I say it isn’t the doctrine of the resurrection that drove me away, but rather the doctrine of an indwelling holy spirit.
Its amazing how many Christians do not feel that it is fair that they are to be held to a higher standard. If you think it isn’t fair, then take it up with Jesus because he is the one who said that you should expect that.
Chikirin,
Yes, we (Christians) SHOULD be held to a higher standard. And, IF a person is REALLY a Christian (and there are a lot of false professors out there), the Holy Spirit does live within us and we should live a better life morally. However, we are still sinners and we have the sin nature inside of us. Romans 7 speaks volumes of that. Paul said that the things that he wanted to do (by the Spirit) many time he doesn’t do and the things that he didn’t want to do (by the flesh), those are things that he does. There is a warfare going on inside of all of us. That’s why we need to stay in Bible study and prayer daily because we are exposed to sin everyday and we need the strength in our spirits to be able to fight it.
Now, let me tell you what I have found as a pastor. I live next door to the church I pastor (in fact only a parking lot separates my house from the church building) and it is obviously the pastorium. I have people, almost weekly, drive up needing help from our church. Most of the time it is for food and we do have a food pantry that our folks keep stocked very well and we give them some of that. Every so often, someone will ask for some gas or some medicine. We are a small church (about 50) and we don’t have a lot of money. I have pulled money out of my own pocket on many occasions and took them down to the nearest gas station and bought 10 or 15 bucks worth of gas for them. I have given some people money for a prescription, but I really can’t pay for most of those because I don’t have that kind of income. I make less than $15,000 a year in salary and I have my own bills. And I sure do hate to say that I can’t help them with that, but you can only do what you can do.
I know this; I often wonder if anybody goes down to the local bar and tries to get them to help them with their groceries or gas? Or, do they go down to the local strip bar? We have a small office for the National Atheists group in our city and I wonder if anyone there helps them with their problems? I am not sure, but people seem to ALWAYS look for a church when they need help. Why is that? Because they know that they are more apt to find people there that will help them. They are more apt to find someone that will care and not in the rest of the world.
I know that a lot of people think that I/we are a bunch of suckers, but I think that most Christians are more willing to share with others than other people.
As we say down here; THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING!
“IF a person is REALLY a Christian (and there are a lot of false professors out there), the Holy Spirit does live within us and we should live a better life morally. However, we are still sinners and we have the sin nature inside of us.”
Even with the sin nature, the holy spirit’s influence, if it has any actual power at all, should still be evident. Paul is depicted in the bible as having so much power the people were cured by his handkerchief yet he had a sin nature. His sin nature didn’t seem to be any hindrance to the holy spirit. Why then should the sin nature of today’s Christians’ be such that it renders the holy spirit impotent?
Joining the Boy Scouts helps a person live a better life morally. If a Christian has God in them, we should see considerably more than that. There should be something otherworldly, something spectacular.
People don’t go to a bar for charity because charity isn’t the stated purpose of a bar – that’s an apples and oranges comparison. They do however go to the Elks Club or other local charitable organizations whose stated purpose is charity.
It’s commendable that you share with others but I don’t think it is unique to Christianity, Muslims in need go to their muslim charities for example. Are you doing anything a Muslim imam wouldn’t do? Alms is one of the 5 pillars of their religion.
You say your church doesn’t have a lot of money. I have heard many Christians say that the government shouldn’t give welfare to people because it isn’t the government’s job to help the poor, it is the church’s job. Yet you admit your church doesn’t have much to give, so despite what Christians say about it being the church’s job not government’s to help the poor, the church is incapable of doing so because it obviously doesn’t have the resources.
Charitable giving is also but one example of what the Holy spirit’s power is supposed to demonstrate, e.g., patience, lovingkindness, mercy, wisdom; and I see no more of that amongst Christians than anyone else.
Thanks Chikirin for writing this: ” I have heard many Christians say that the government shouldn’t give welfare to people because it isn’t the government’s job to help the poor, it is the church’s job. Yet you admit your church doesn’t have much to give, so despite what Christians say about it being the church’s job not government’s to help the poor, the church is incapable of doing so because it obviously doesn’t have the resources.”
YES, I heard the exact same thing! the pastor was grumbling about our government helping it’s citizens with “welfare handouts” & going on to say that it is the churches job for that. I am shaking my head because the “church” doesn’t even take care of it’s own, let alone the downtrodden & disenfranchised in the greater society.
What a laugh!! ….rely on the “church” to take care of the poor?…HA.
Chikirin,
WOW!! For a person to really miss the point, you didn’t come within a solar system of what I was saying. Let’s just snip and clip:
Chikirin on October 19, 2012 at 2:34 PM said:
“Even with the sin nature, the holy spirit’s influence, if it has any actual power at all, should still be evident. Paul is depicted in the bible as having so much power the people were cured by his handkerchief yet he had a sin nature. His sin nature didn’t seem to be any hindrance to the holy spirit. Why then should the sin nature of today’s Christians’ be such that it renders the holy spirit impotent?”
As I said, the Holy Spirit can only have the power over us as we allow him. Let me quote
Rom 7:18-25
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV
Paul, possibly the greatest Christian that ever lived, said that sin was present in his BODY and he warred against it everyday. All of us that are Christians can understand that.
“Joining the Boy Scouts helps a person live a better life morally. If a Christian has God in them, we should see considerably more than that. There should be something otherworldly, something spectacular.”
The point that I was making and you missed is that living as a Christian should, can, and will make us better morally. There are exceptions to this of course, but we see that in the Bible as well. David was “a man after God’s own heart”, yet he committed adultery and murder. Moses had a hot temper and it cost him a ticket to the Promised Land. Abraham, who is called “The Father Of The Faithful” had a laspe in his faith when he lied about his wife to save his own hide. Even Paul had a harsh, unforgiving spirit when it came to John Mark who had abandoned him and Barnabas on their first missionary journey. Barnabas wanted to give him a second chance but Paul said no way and they separated because of it.
“People don’t go to a bar for charity because charity isn’t the stated purpose of a bar – that’s an apples and oranges comparison. They do however go to the Elks Club or other local charitable organizations whose stated purpose is charity.”
The church is not about charity either. It is a place where people should come to find a relationship with God. Feeding people and paying for gas is not found in the purpose of a church. As for the Elks and others, they do a lot of good, but the church seems to be the preferred place to get a bag of groceries or gas. They will find more “red tape” at these other groups than they will a church.
“It’s commendable that you share with others but I don’t think it is unique to Christianity, Muslims in need go to their muslim charities for example. Are you doing anything a Muslim imam wouldn’t do? Alms is one of the 5 pillars of their religion.”
I’m not saying the Muslims don’t do charity work, but it almost exclusively for their own people. I can almost guarantee you that an “infidel” (a non-Muslim) wouldn’t receive much from a Muslim iman. I have helped dozens of total strangers in my life and ministry, with no knowledge of their church affiliation. Most of the people who have come by here are not the same race as me, but that didn’t matter to Christ and it doesn’t matter to me and my church. We help where we can. We hope to share as Christ would share.
“You say your church doesn’t have a lot of money. I have heard many Christians say that the government shouldn’t give welfare to people because it isn’t the government’s job to help the poor, it is the church’s job.”
You’ve never heard me say that! Don’t hold me accountable for what others say. I can speak for me and the church(es) I’ve pastored and we have ALWAYS been willing to help others. We don’t have a lot of money, but we do have big hearts.
“Yet you admit your church doesn’t have much to give, so despite what Christians say about it being the church’s job not government’s to help the poor, the church is incapable of doing so because it obviously doesn’t have the resources.”
Talking about not getting it! We can’t help everyone, but we help what we can do. And for the rest of your statement, all I can say is . . . . . . WOW! The word “clueless” comes to mind. I don’t even know your point on that one. So, we should not help anyone because we aren’t able to help EVERYONE?? Last year, our church gave over $10,000 to mission work and benevolence. We support a youth camp, an orphanage, two Bible colleges, and 8 mission points. This is from a church that averages about 40 in Sunday School on Sunday and the majority of them are over 60 years of age. We wish we could do more and we always look for more ways to do so. We are not a “mega church”, but we have a bunch of people that have “mega hearts”! And I am proud of them for that!!
“Charitable giving is also but one example of what the Holy spirit’s power is supposed to demonstrate, e.g., patience, lovingkindness, mercy, wisdom; and I see no more of that amongst Christians than anyone else.”
With all due respect, you aren’t looking! People that have a critical eye miss the trees because of the forest. Most of the people in my church give more than 10% of their income to the church for the work. I don’t know about you, but ALL of us could find something that we could spend that money on that would make our lives more comfortable, but they GIVE. And that is because of the Lord Jesus Christ and what he has meant to us and the leadership of the Holy Spirit.
I don’t want you or anyone to think I am bragging, but something happened Wednesday evening that illustrates this. We had a missionary stop by and told us about his work. He works with the Navajo nation out in New Mexico. The Navajo’s are very poor people who live way beneath the poverty line. They have 67% unemployment. After he was through speaking (we had about 25 there), I told the folks that we would have an offering plate at the door for people to give to help them. I didn’t have any cash on me and had to run over to the house for some money. I had $35 on my desk and I took $15 of it and gave it in the offering plate. That gives me $20 until the first of the month when I’ll get my next check with about a half tank of gas. When we were done, the treasurer counted the money and there was $272 in the plate!! I was so happy and so proud of our people. They didn’t know this missionary from Adam, but they knew that there was a need for those people and they gave!! Go to a bar sometime and pass a tin can around and see how much you’ll get!!! I dare you! You will get some, but not half that amount from twice the people, GUARANTEED!!!
Hey, don’t call me “clueless.” Matthew 5:22. I haven’t called you any names.
Basically I’m saying there’s no evidence of anything supernatural in you or your church. Any good thing you or your church does simply shows that people can sometimes do good things. Christians don’t have a monopoly on this. The bible says that Christians DO have a monopoly on this, that they alone have the holy spirit and no one else, but that’s how I know the bible is untrue, because I can see that this isn’t the case. Today’s Christianity is totally human-powered. This is very different from the Christianity I read about in the bible.
Of course, no one can ever live up to the bible, because it’s made-up. its like preaching from a Superman comic, and answering the question “Why can’t we fly? Well, because the spirit of Superman cannot express itself unless we allow it to, he is a gentleman, he will not impose himself on us.” The clearer answer to why we can’t fly like superman is because superman is make-belive, and we are merely human.
Wow. Fascinating conversation. So many interesting parts. But you got me thinking about someone asking for help in a bar. I’d think after a couple of drinks to relax, bar patrons might be quite generous. They might have a keener eye for whether your request is legit or not.
I’m sure all of us have been in some kind of awkward situation where we were forced to swallow our pride and ask for help. But I’ve wondered if those who easily ask for help need it less sometimes.
Another part I find interesting is about the Holy Spirit. The whole idea of people “allowing” the Holy Spirit to do anything seems to me to so obviously show that it’s all make-believe. I was taught that the Holy Spirit is God and extremely powerful, draws you to salvation, fills you, dwells in you as God Himself. So if THAT doesn’t cause you to stand way out in a crowd, I don’t know what would. I was one who truly believed all that and came to see that it surely doesn’t seem to be true. How can the sin nature still be there and ever win out over God? How can we control God?
The whole notion of God living inside a person seems so bizarre to me now. Why could I, when I wanted to, always impose my will on God? The “flesh” always won.
Of course I now know why. There was no God living inside of me and my flesh was just who I am.
Chikirin, you shine a light on the nonsensical in a way that finally allows my legalistically-mired, brainwashed mind to connect the dots. I have so many taboos in my head left over from my long childhood and early adulthood in Christianity, I can’t always connect the dots myself.
And Bruce, don’t even get me started. I will have finished reading your entire blog by the end of the day, and I will be referring my “still-saved” family and friends to your words to help explain what I sometimes can’t express. Thank you so much.
That’s the nicest compliment i have ever received!
I think what helped me a lot was seeing the ways that Christianity attaches emotional content to certain words, so when they are uttered, they trigger an emotional response, like Pavlovian conditioning.
At first if someone told me “You are an Apostate!” it would trigger fear, but now I can see that the reason it does is because the church conditioned me over many years to react in that way. Now I take it as a compliment!