Repost from 2015. Extensively edited, rewritten, and corrected.
Two thousand years.
Two thousand years of Jesus.
Almost from the beginning, Christians put their oral traditions, teachings, and beliefs into writing. The Bibles used by twenty-first-century Christians all trace their authority back through history to Christian writings dating from around 50 CE forward. The original writings, the first edition writings do not exist and any claim of inspiration for the “original” writings is nothing more than wishful, fanciful thinking. Every claim ever made by the Christian church rests on the text of the Bible and how the church has interpreted that text. I am aware of the fact that the Christian church has been influenced by Gnosticism for most of its 2,000-year history, but for the most part, Christianity is a text-based religion that places the text of the Bible above personal experiences and revelations. Even when personal experiences and revelations are given greater weight and authority — as in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches — they are almost always expected to conform to what is found in the text of the Bible.
Most Christians believe the Bible is inspired by God. They believe the words of the Bible came from God or at least represent, in fallible human form, what God wants humankind to know about God, life, salvation, death, judgment, and the afterlife. Many Christians believe every word of the Bible is inspired by God, and some Christians even go so far as to say that a particular translation, the King James Version, is inspired by God. Christians who hold this extreme view believe that God has preserved his Word through time and that every word of the King James Bible is from the lips of God himself. And countless other Christians believe the text of the Bible is inerrant and infallible. Ponder that thought for a moment. Every word in a book thousands of years old is true, without error, and perfect in every way. To quote the Evangelical bumper sticker, “God said it, I believe it, and that settles it for me.” Some Evangelicals say, “God said it, and that settles it for me. It doesn’t matter whether I believe it or not!”
Most Christians believe the Bible is truth. While they may not believe ALL the Bible is truth, every Christian, at some point or the other, says THIS is truth. A person who does not believe the Bible is truth is not a Christian in any meaningful sense of the word. There is a form of Christianity floating about these days that suggests a person can be a Christian and not believe the Bible. This kind of Christian says “I’m spiritual, but not religious.” He embraces Jesus as his Savior and guide, but often has no connection with organized Christianity. However, even the “spiritual but not religious” Christians must, sooner or later, appeal to the Bible. Without the Bible, they would have no knowledge of Jesus, the locus of their faith.
Other Christians are what I call cafeteria Christians. They pick and choose what they want to believe. Most cafeteria Christians believe in Jesus since they DO want their sins forgiven and they DO want to go to Heaven when they die, but when it comes to the hard sayings of the Bible, the teachings that get in the way of the American dream and living the way they want to live, cafeteria Christians dismiss such sayings and teachings as old, outdated relics of the past that have no value or application today. Simply put, they want a Jesus divorced from anything else the Bible says. Cafeteria Christians become quite adept at explaining away anything in the Bible with which they disagree.
This brings me to the point of this post. Who determines what the Bible says? Who decides what this verse or that verse says? Who is the arbiter of truth? Who is the final authority?
Some Christians say GOD is the final authority. The Bible is God’s Word . . . THUS SAITH THE LORD! These well-meaning Christians think that the teachings of the Bible are clear and understandable, needing no explanation or interpretation. Why, then, do they go to church on Sundays and listen to men tell them what they think the Bible says? Why do they read books and commentaries written by people telling them what they think the Bible says? If the Bible is a self-attesting, self-explanatory text, why all the middlemen?
Some Christians say the HOLY SPIRIT is the final authority. God gave New Testament Christians (Old Testament believers only got a part-time Holy Ghost who came and went at will) the Holy Spirit to be their teacher and guide. Supposedly, the Holy Spirit teaches them everything necessary for life and godliness. It is not hard to see the Gnostic influence in this kind of thinking. If there is ONE Holy Spirit who teaches and guides every Christian, why is there no consensus among believers on what Christians believe or how they are supposed to live? Why does the Holy Spirit give contradictory instructions or lessons? Why are there so many Christian sects? Surely, if the Holy Spirit is on his game, every sect would believe the same thing, and they would become ONE body with ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism.
Some Christians are what I call red-letter Christians. They give weight and authority to the “words” of Jesus in the gospels, the words that are in red in many modern translations. With great passion and commitment, they attempt to walk in the steps of Jesus (WWJD). Unfortunately, they rarely consider whether the words attributed to Jesus in the gospels are actually his words. Jesus didn’t write any of the books found in the Bible, which, in my opinion, is quite odd. Most Biblical scholars question who actually wrote the gospels, and mainstream scholars have serious reservations over Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John being the authors of the gospels that bear their names. Since the gospels are, at best, stories passed down by those alive at the time of Christ and not put in written form until decades after the death of Jesus, the best a modern-day Christian can say about the gospels is that they are words written by an unknown people who recorded what a third, fourth, fifth or twentieth party told the writer Jesus said.
Claims that the Bible is some sort of inspired text require faith. There’s no evidence for the claim that the Bible is inspired outside of the text itself. Either you believe the Bible is, to some degree or the other, supernatural truth or you don’t. I am an atheist today primarily because I no longer believe the Bible is truth. While it is certainly a book filled with entertaining and thought-provoking stories, it is not, in any way, a supernatural text. While it certainly contains maxims worthy of emulation, it also contains God-approved behaviors that we moderns now consider at odds with human and scientific progress.
Every Christian belief rests not on God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit, but on the authority of a human being or a group of human beings. It is humans who decide what the Bible says. It is humans who decide what this or that verse means. Whether it is a denomination, the Pope, theologians, a pastor, or an individual Christian, it is a human who is the final authority. At best, the only thing a Christian can claim is THUS SAITH THE POPE, MY DENOMINATION, MY PASTOR, MY COLLEGE PROFESSORS, OR MYSELF! Any claim that it is God speaking or leading is a matter of faith, a matter that cannot be proved empirically. In other words, you are just going to have to take their word for it — or not.
Christians need to get off their Bible High-Horse and admit who the real final authority is. The fact that there are thousands of Christian sects shows very clearly that humans are the ones with the final say on what the Bible does and doesn’t say. It is humans who preach, write books, teach theology classes, blog, and debate. God may have said a particular something — and there is no way for us to know if he did — but it is humans who get the final say about what God actually said or what he meant to say. Every Christian statement of belief is an interpretation of the Bible. It is that person or group saying, this is what the Bible says. In other words, the person is saying I know what God said. (One of the purposes of this blog is to demonstrate that the Bible can be made to say almost anything.)
Can you name one Christian teaching that ALL Christians agree upon? Outside of the fact that Jesus was a real person, every other teaching of the so-called “faith once delivered to the saints” is disputed by some Christian sect or the other. If the Christian church were a married couple, they would have long since been divorced for irreconcilable differences. Oh wait, that is exactly what has happened. The Christian church is hopelessly splintered into thousands of sects, each competing with the other for the title of God’s Truth Holder. Children in Evangelical Sunday schools learn to sing the B-I-B-L-E song. In light of what I have written above, the lyrics of the song should be changed:
The B-I-B-L-E, yes that MIGHT be the Book for me, I SOMETIMES stand alone on the WORDS OF MEN, the B-I-B-L-E. B-I-B-L-E!!
Until God shows up in person and says yes, I wrote this convoluted, contradictory book that makes me out to be a hateful, vindictive sadist, I am not going to believe the Bible is God’s Word. If a benevolent, loving God really wrote the Bible, do you think he would have written what Christians say he did? If God had control of the writing process, do you think he would have included his unsavory, immoral side? If God was involved in putting the Bible together, don’t you think he would have proofread it to make sure there were no mistakes and that the text was internally consistent?
Instead, Christians spend countless hours trying to harmonize (make it all fit) the text of the Bible. They put forth laughable explanations for the glaring errors found in the Bible. Well, you know Bruce, Jesus cleansed the Temple at the start of his ministry AND the end of his ministry! Sure he did. I wonder if Christians know how foolish some of their harmonizing attempts sound to those on the outside of the church or to someone like myself, who has been on both sides of the fence? Of course, according to the Bible, the various harmonization schemes sound foolish because non-Christians don’t have the Holy Spirit inside of them teaching them how to make square pegs fit in round holes. And round and round the merry-go-round goes.
If Christians want to believe the Bible is some sort of truth, and worship God/Jesus/Holy Spirit based on what is written within its pages, I have no beef with them. If they want to believe the Bible and its teachings, who am I to say they can’t? However, when they insist everyone acquiesce to their beliefs about the Bible and God, and that their peculiar belief system is the one true religion, then I have a problem. When Christians insist that the Bible and its teachings be taught to public school children or demand that their interpretations of the moral and ethical code taught in the Bible applies to everyone, they should expect pushback from people such as myself. Since history gives us ample warning about what happens when any religion gains the power of the state, secularists like myself will continue to fight any attempt to enshrine Christianity as the official state religion.
Here’s what I am saying to Christians. Take the Bible, go to your houses of worship, and believe and worship as you will. However, I expect you to keep your beliefs to yourself. If I don’t ask, you don’t tell. Stop all the theocratic, God-rule talk. Stop trying to turn the United States into a Christian nation. Stop demonizing everyone who disagrees with your beliefs. In other words, treat others with decency, love, and respect. Stop being a religious fanatic who thinks everyone should hear about your version of the Christian God and embrace your peculiar beliefs.
Do you think American Christians, especially conservative Catholics and Protestants, Mormons, and Evangelical Christians, can do what I mentioned above? Not a chance! They will continue to push, fight, and infiltrate until they have no more soldiers to fight with. They are like a disease that is only curable by death. The good news is that this brand of Christianity is slowly dying and, in time, long after you and I are dead, the American Jesus will have drawn its last breath. (Please see Why I Hate Jesus.)
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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Re “Almost from the beginning, Christians put their oral traditions, teachings, and beliefs into writing.” Actually, this wasn’t the case. Even though Jesus pointed out that “the end was nigh” the Great Commission was still in effect. So, what would help the apostles to go out and spread the good word? How about a record of as many of the things Jesus taught as could be compiled? Surely some of the early converts had wealth (Acts confirms this), enough wealth to hire a scribe to go around and interview all of the people who walked with him and talked with him, etc. writing down as much of his message as possible. This document would then be copied . . . and copied . . . and copied, but then where is it. Some people speculate that there was such a document, calling it the Quelle, or source. But no copy of this or even a tiny fragment has been found. How could such a document be lost? How could it not have been created in the first place?
Paul wrote a lot, but not about Jesus. The first “gospels” writing about Jesus occurred only decades later when all of the first person witness were dead.
This is just one piece of the argument that Jesus was fictitious, aka spiritual, not incarnate.
Millions of Christians believe the bible is the literal word of god yet they never read it. Think about that. The almighty creator of the universe is giving you all of his secrets in wring and you can’t bother to spend as much time reading it as you give to your weekly People magazine. It’s almost as though they don’t really believe what they claim.
I have spent a fair amount of time studying the Bible though, I am sure, not as much as Bruce has. I have, however, spent a lot of time studying (and teaching) literature and history. From those endeavors, I have learned this: Any attempt to claim authority over interpretations of any text—whether it’s the Bible, the US Constitution or The Merchant of Venice—is political and economic. In short, it’s about power: When significant parts of a culture or economy are based on a text, or that text has simply been enshrined in the canon, having the “authoritative “ interpretation means having the power to make or change laws, educational curricula and societal morés.
It’s amazing how so many Christians read curated excerpts from their supposedly holy scriptures. They’ll follow a feel-good guide that presents a verse or a few verses along with an explanation, vignette, small prayer, feel-good paragraph. They aren’t reading about massive God-demanded slaughters or Jewish laws (i.e., instructions for building a tabernacle). I have a relative who posts his devotional guide excerpts everyday, and I just roll my eyes…… And you’re correct, Christians certainly do argue over their interpretations of the Bible!
Yep. It’d be great if they kept their beliefs to themselves. But good luck with that. They’ve got their marching orders to go out and convert the sinners. And come hell or high water, they’re gonna do it.
I don’t think I’m properly able to articulate what I think is the fundamental problem with the bible. Yes, of course it’s nonsense, in the most, historically, philosophically, and scientifically illiterate, with some gems tucked in there, as you might expect from any book (or rather set of books of that length) that has been cobbled together in an ad hoc way. I think some of the more inspiring passages rather depend on the translation, and I think this is why the KJV proves so popular.
The problem for me is that it’s unclear what the bible seeks to do. People talk about getting ‘meaning’ or ‘purpose’ from it, but when pressed they aren’t able to explain these words. I’m especially confounded by the word ‘meaning’ in this context because I’m not sure how, even with God, there’s any additional meaning to life, any more than there’s meaning in an orange or a turnip. ‘Purpose’ I can begin to understand, but, in reality, if you have to pray and go to church to ‘find purpose’ then I’d argue that praying and going to church ARE your purposes in life, just as others find purpose in other things, such as running and watching football. In evolutionary terms there is only one purpose in life and that is to reproduce. Just see where that instinct has taken us by looking at the Catholic Church, or Jimmy Saville, or Harvey Weinstein. God could have made us so we didn’t produce moral monsters like these, yet instead he supposedly inspired a book of incomprehensible myths and importations that largely encourage these behaviours.
It goes further. Why would God choose such an inefficient and cumbersome way of informing mankind? It’s inefficient because it depends on many intangibles, from the extremely unreliable memory of people speaking long after an event, or because of second hand information, to the fact that the authors weren’t even often conversant in the languages they were having to translate from. Cumbersome in the sense that until the invention of the printing press it was virtually impossible to produce copies of the texts, and every single copy that was ever made, however well intentioned contains numerous errors. A God that was capable of making the universe is not going to be hamstrung by having to use as a communication method the only such tool that happened to be available to mankind at the time.
when i realised that i could read the bible, and interpret it the way i saw fit, without other people telling me what it means, was when i realised that “christianity” is a lot more a means to control other people, and make them do what you want them to, than it is a “spiritual path to the one, true god”.
Yes Christianity appears to be waning. Not so obvious here as in the south of the Netherlands where my family originates. I last visited in “89 and was struck by the vacant Catholic churches. Mass was still being said where my parents were baptized, married, and my siblings were baptized. I attended for sentimentality’s sake. Only a handful of congregants were there, so few they all seemed to turn to look, knowing who I was. They probably did know, word traveled fast in the village. The slide seemed so precipitous that 30 years later I wonder if that old flagship church still has a pastor.
As long as mealy mouthed pandering politicians lack the courage to refuse to take a secular pledge, the superstitious and the “Christian Nation” fanatics will keep “their thing” going indefinitely here, or at least until their warlike disposition gets this society destroyed.
“There’s no evidence for the claim that the Bible is inspired outside of the text itself.”/i>
Israel and Christian Western Civilization are not only evidence, but conclusive proof of the divine power of the Bible.
“However, I expect you to keep your beliefs to yourself.”
Do you keep your beliefs to yourself?
You are making a claim, not providing evidence. Try harder.
As far as “keeping beliefs to yourself, “ I said this in the following context:
“Here’s what I am saying to Christians. Take the Bible, go to your houses of worship, and believe and worship as you will. However, I expect you to keep your beliefs to yourself. If I don’t ask, you don’t tell. Stop all the theocratic, God-rule talk. Stop trying to turn the United States into a Christian nation. Stop demonizing everyone who disagrees with your beliefs. In other words, treat others with decency, love, and respect. Stop being a religious fanatic who thinks everyone should hear about your version of the Christian God and embrace your peculiar beliefs.”
Bruce, Christian Western Civilization is the only civilization in human history that elevated the common man above 3rd World poverty without the use of massive slave labor. This elevation came about because Christian values were infused into the upbringing of the common man and the justice system, and because of modern science which is a development exclusive to Christian Western Civilization.
Bruce, I haven’t demonized anyone. I just stated what should be obvious and asked a question.
I discuss my beliefs with other people all the time, just like you do. I teach science and math at a Catholic classical high school. I show my students where God is in the math and the science on top of offering an academically rigorous curriculum.
The context of the sentence you used answered your question. You seem unable to understand why I said what I did. I am a big proponent of free speech. I am also a big proponent of privacy and personal space. Evangelizing Christians seem to think that they have a right to invade my personal space. They don’t.
Your statement about Western Civilization has nothing to do with your claim that its existence is evidence for the inspiration of the Bible. Connect the dots between Western Civilization and the divine inspiration of the Bible.
Bruce, My statement about Western Civilization has everything to do with my “claim that its existence is evidence for the inspiration of the Bible.” It’s filed under cause and effect.
Connecting those dots is up to you.
You are the one making the claim, not me. I see zero evidence for your claim, and unless you can provide it, we have nothing to talk about.
Bruce, Claiming that you don’t see something clearly visible, is you claiming that you are blind. I can’t do much with that.
If it is clearly visible I’d see it, as would countless other people. You wrongly think that people who can’t see your Pooka Harvey are blind. Again, you make a claim without evidence.
Bruce, How do you know you would see it? Channeling Dirty Harry in, The Enforcer, “A man’s got to know his limitations.”
The statements I have made are from what I have learned from masters level university professors both secular and religious. I am not just popping off.
You are making a claim that should have an evidentiary basis, yet you provide no evidence except personal testimony and really smart people told you that what you believe is true. Got it. You are appealing to faith. Thus, there is no discussion to be had. Unless you have actual evidence for your claim, then this discussion has reached a dead end.
SOM, I’ve pointed out to you previously that the smarter and more academically qualified you are then the more likely you are to embrace atheism. That’s a simple fact. Your smart colleagues work in a Catholic school, so are hardly likely to ‘bite the hand that feeds them’. I might say that I’m always suspicious, too, of the numerous degrees and doctorates bandied around in religious education circles. Doesn’t Kent Hovind pretend he has a doctorate? David Tee (see Bruce’s numerous posts) also.
“ Bruce, Christian Western Civilization is the only civilization in human history that elevated the common man above 3rd World poverty without the use of massive slave labor. This elevation came about because Christian”
Umm…🤔🤔
I mean, yeah, you are right, if you just ignore the outright slavery that existed in “Western Civilization” and ignore the treatment and abuse of colonized countries.
And it’s not like the concept of “Western Civilization” is in any way looking down at other countries of the world and defining them as wrong or some not up to the standards of a particular group of people.
Sage, During Antiquity, where Christians went, slavery diminished. Slavery was so entrenched in ancient culture that Aristotle thought it was as natural and right as rain.
Later, in American, over 400,000 White Christian men died in a war that ended slavery in that nation.
The concept of Christian Western Civilization is what it is: a civilization vastly superior in every way to any other civilization. The cause for that is Christianity.
Sage, You can’t win with this guy. He’s an evangelical as well as a Catholic. Ergo, he’s a nut job.
“ The concept of Christian Western Civilization is what it is: a civilization vastly superior in every way to any other civilization.”
Yep, that was my point. The superiority of the white man. I am glad you can admit it. At least you are not hiding your white supremacy views.
And by the way, people in Asia would disagree with your assessment. China alone has a rich and varied history and civilization and even invented some things you rely on today.
But sure, go ahead, wear your “white Christian people are superior” blinders and make everyone be inferior to you.
“ Later, in American, over 400,000 White Christian men died in a war that ended slavery in that nation.”
Yet you said there was no massive use of slave labor to build your vaunted western civilization. But we know that the United States was built on the backs of slave labor which led to this war. Slave labor, by the way, which was supported by Christian beliefs of powerful members of this superior western civilization
I should also point out your numbers re a bit skewed. According to National Parks Service, 110,100 men from the Union died in the American Civil War.
Let’s look at more numbers..
According to the TransAtlantic Slave Trade Database, over 10 million Africans were taken from their countries and enslaved to work in this great Western Civilization. Just under 390,000 were enslaved in North America. They were a significant percentage of the American population
That sounds rather massive to me.
These are the facts and reality that I know you cannot comprehend or accept, since you are so deep white, western man superiority. I expect you will fight back with more pointless arguments lacking facts. You like to spew words that sound like arguments, but never actual data to support your claims.
George, I agree with you. My goal is not to change his mind, because his superiority is ingrained and will not change. But I won’t let his views go unchallenged. We have left these views to be unchallenged for too long, and it creates endless problems.
Sounds to me that when you say ‘God is in the math’ that what you are really doing is indoctrinating your students, adding to the disadvantage they already suffer by virtue of being in a Catholic school. God and maths cannot be intertwined, however cute and inventive are the equations, as they belong in entirely different areas of human endeavour. No God equation is taken seriously by anyone other than those determined to believe that it should be. Indeed, it’s a corruption of mathematical integrity, which seeks to describe the natural world in ways we cannot otherwise do, not to try and overlay it with a form of linguistic trickery intended only to confound the naïve with a view to proving the supernatural.
GeoffT, No, God really is in the math. I leave the indoctrination up to the priests. And believe me they are doing a piss poor job.
I have seen the equation. I have used the equation to prove the existence of the Glittery Blue Unicorn. It works to prove the existence of any god as long as you accept that the god exists.
Based on the formula I saw, if this is what this person teaches in their school, their “academically rigorous curriculum” may not be very rigorous.
But Bruce, if I stop, people will end up in hell. Their skin and muscles will melt away and demons will poke their skeletons with pitchforks and laugh as they torture them forever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever. A torture that their loving heavenly father created just for them.
Neither Bruce nor any other atheist is trying to outlaw healthcare for women or trans people. Nor are they passing laws to mandate school curricula that deny scientific and historical facts, let alone any aesthetic that doesn’t comport with their views. They are not trying to deny consenting the right to love and marry—or not marry—another consenting adult.
In short, they are not trying to turn the United States into their fiefdom.
People (like me) who read this blog found it because of a search or by chance and continue to read it by choice. Bruce has not forced it on anybody.
It’s so cool that the IFBs got the the Bible from the Catholics. Magical, in fact!
“The concept of Christian Western Civilization is what it is: a civilization vastly superior in every way to any other civilization. The cause for that is Christianity.” So says Silence of Mind. Silence of Mind shows us in one sweeping statement why American Christianity and white supremacy are inextricably intertwined. His comment is incredibly racist. I wish he’d check out Robert Jones’ book “White too Long: The Legacy of White Supremacy in American Christianity.” In that book, Jones demonstrates, with plenty of evidence to back him up, that there has never been a period of innocence in American Christianity. It had a white supremacist orientation from the start which continues today.