Today, an Evangelical (IFB?) woman named Donna Flowers came to this site and read one post: Emotionally Manipulating IFB Church Members through Music and Preaching Styles before sending me an email. Afterward, she read the post titled Why I Hate Jesus. Flowers read none of my autobiographical material, showing the curiosity of a dead armadillo in the middle of a rural Texas road on a hot July day. That’s “none” for you who are metaphor-challenged. 🙂
Here’s what Flowers had to say:
My heart goes out to you. I will pray for you that you will turn your life around and go back to the place you decided to walk off from Jesus in your Christian walk. Jesus loves you! Have a blessed day!
Not much to respond to here. I’m inclined to just say “sigh” (Why I Use the Word “Sigh”) and move on, but it’s Monday so I am raring — well actually in a lot of pain and fighting nausea — to respond to several emails and comments I have received in recent days.
Flowers’ email is dripping with Evangelical “love.” You know the kind: cheap, superfluous, and conditional. Her “heart” goes out to “me.” Goes out to who, exactly? Flowers made no attempt to read anything about me besides the two posts mentioned above. She made no effort to understand my story; how and why I became an atheist. Instead, she offers cheap Christian love, the equivalent of “I’m praying for you.”
Based on what she wrote, Flowers evidently believes I am still a Christian; that I am just backslidden. All I need to do is return to the Lord. I just need to find that moment in time where I walked away from Jesus and return to that spot and start serving (preaching?) the Lord again. Is it really that simple? Can I undo the past fifteen years? How absurd. First, my wife is no longer believer. Second, my children are no longer believers. Third, my life is better in every way post-Jesus (except my health, which Flowers will likely attribute to God’s chastisement). Fourth, even if I embraced some sort of religious faith again, I most certainly would not return to Evangelicalism. Never, ever, not in a million, billion, trillion years. Evangelicalism causes harm (as we see in the recent overturning of Row v. Wade) and in its extreme expressions is a full-blown cult.
How does Flowers know Jesus loves me? Did he tell her? By all accounts, I am an apostate and a reprobate. It’s likely I am not elect. I would love Flowers to theologically explain to me how she knows “Jesus loves me.”
Flowers ends her missive by telling me to have a “blessed” day. I shall, all without the God of the Christian Bible. Having a “blessed” day is not contingent on faith. I will gladly explain this fact to Flowers if she’s interested.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Recently, a man named Bradley Brown left the above comment on YouTube. Brown wants to know if I returned the money I earned pastoring churches when I became an atheist. Evidently, Brown’s Bible doesn’t include the verse that says a “laborer is worthy of his honor” and that a pastor/elder is worthy of “double honor” (pay).
I spent twenty-five years pastoring Evangelical churches in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. All told, I averaged less than $10,000 a year as a pastor. Two churches paid me no money, one church paid me $26,000 and provided housing, and the rest of the churches I pastored paid roughly $8,000-10,000 a year. Total that up and I made around $250,000 as a pastor.
Not one church provided health benefits or any other benefits. We relied on Medicaid or paid cash for our medical care. We only went to the doctor if it was an emergency. Our children went years between doctor’s visits.
Our hillbilly mansion. We lived in this 720-square-foot mobile home for five years, all eight of us.
Only one church provided us housing. The rest of the time, we lived in rentals or two mobile homes we purchased. For five years, our family of eight lived in 12’x60′ mobile home — 720 square feet. Most years we drove cars that cost a few hundred dollars. We did buy a new Plymouth Horizon in 1984 for $6,000, putting 102,000 miles on it in two years. We also bought a spartan low-mileage 80s Chevy Cavalier for $2,900. We junked it at 176,000 miles.
Every church I pastored had my full attention, as I worked full-time even when I was paid paltry wages. In addition, I worked secular jobs to provide for my family. Every dime I ever made, I earned. So, to answer Bradley Brown, no I am not going to return the money I EARNED pastoring churches.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Yes, they [atheists] actually do hate God [the Evangelical Christian deity].
Having just penned another piece on the war against God, I of course got the usual angry atheists writing in with their fists flying [likely a gross exaggeration]. They hate it when you dare challenge their derelict worldview. And they always go on about how they do not really hate God. Yeah right. [Are you calling us liars, Bill? Why can’t you accept our stories at face value, just like we do yours?]
Of course they hate God. Their entire life screams out this hatred. And it is no wonder: when they are told that they are NOT the centre of the universe, but only the one real and living God is, that incenses them. That outrages them. Atheists hate it when you point out the truth that there can be only one true God. And the reasons are obvious:
They want to be king, not subject. They want to rule, not be ruled. They want to give orders, not take orders. They want to call the shots, not be told what to do. They want to determine what is true and false, not God. They want to determine what is right and wrong, not God. They want to be independent, not dependent. They want to do their own will, not God’s will. They want to live like the devil, not God. They want to rule in hell, not serve in heaven.
Scripture of course often speaks about atheists. Twice in the Psalter for example they are called “fools” because they refuse to recognise God (Ps. 14:1 and 53:1). Rejecting their creator – and judge – is the height of foolishness. And this is a deliberate, defiant rejection of God.
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These people are “haters of God”. They know God exists, they know they have moral obligations to recognise this reality and live accordingly, but they refuse to – that is why they hate him so much. They are guilty and they know it.
Atheists do not spend all their time and energy hating on and railing against flying spaghetti monsters for the simple reason that they know there are no such things. But they DO know that God exists, and they hate him for it. If God exists, then they cannot be god.
John MacFarlane is the pastor of First Baptist Church in Bryan, Ohio. First Baptist is an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) congregation. I’ve known John since he was seven years old. I attended First Baptist in the 1960s and 1970s. Its pastor at the time was Jack Bennett. Jack’s wife, Creta Daugherty, was the sister of two of my uncles, Paul and Ed.
John writes a daily blog devotional for his church. Typical Fundamentalist stuff, but, on occasion, John will say something that gets my attention or angers me:
John probably wishes I would stop paying attention to him. 🙂 Do better, John, do better.
Yesterday, John wrote a “devotional” titled Problems on the 50-Yard Line, detailing his support for football coach Joe Kennedy. Kennedy, you may remember, is the coach who held prayer meetings after games at the fifty-yard line. Kennedy was asked by school officials to stop doing so. He refused and was subsequently fired. Kennedy sued, and the case is now before the U.S. Supreme Court.
The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals had last year ruled in favor of Washington’s Bremerton School District, which did not renew Coach Joe Kennedy’s contract after he defied reasonable requests to stop praying with students on the 50-yard line right after games. Kennedy had been singled out for praise by then-President Trump, including in a speech from the Oval Office on Religious Freedom Day, and has been a darling of Christian nationalist organizations and extremist members of Congress.
Joining FFRF on the brief are other national organizations that represent nonreligious Americans, including the Center For Inquiry, the American Humanist Association and the Secular Coalition for America.
The Supreme Court mystifyingly agreed to hear the case, which FFRF is arguing is moot, mandating that the court dismiss the case. After losing in the district court, Kennedy sold his home in Washington and moved approximately 2,800 miles to Pensacola, Fla., FFRF explains. Kennedy and his wife are no longer employed in Washington. The assistant football coach position at Bremerton High School is a year-round commitment that pays just $5,304. These changed circumstances are problematic for Kennedy because a Florida resident cannot sue a Washington school district over its policies.
“Under the court’s precedents, the case is moot,” states the brief. “This is reinforced by the principle that a plaintiff who removes himself from the threat of allegedly unconstitutional policies has mooted his claims for prospective relief.”
After documenting many instances in which atheist and non-Christian plaintiffs have faced procedural hurdles when seeking judicial relief, FFRF asserts that the Supreme Court must apply jurisdictional doctrines uniformly, otherwise it manipulates its jurisdiction in order to benefit preferred litigants.
“If the court asserts it has jurisdiction to decide such cases, it must apply its jurisdiction uniformly to all litigants, and not only to cases involving preferred litigants,” says the brief. “A review of the court’s cases involving religion highlights the need for the court to adopt an even-handed approach to jurisdiction.”
And if the court is inclined to review the merits of this case, it must take into account the harm caused to students who are nonreligious or who are religious minorities when coaches instigate prayer, FFRF stresses. The unique features of the coach-student relationship coerce students to participate in coach-led prayers. This type of religious activity, as FFRF demonstrates with many cogent examples, has harmed students in numerous respects, including by marginalizing nonreligious students and making them susceptible to attacks from other students and members of the community.
Plus, school athletic teams foster an atmosphere of both communal activity among players and also allegiance to the coach. These features, combined with the social pressures exerted when an authority figure engages in religious practices, coerce non-Christian students to participate in Christian prayers.
Coach Kennedy’s religious activity on the 50-yard line was a team activity. He intended to continue to pray with students on the field, as was his prior practice. Kennedy’s post-game prayers were anything but private. They were intended to be team prayers, FFRF emphasizes. This is problematic for students who would otherwise choose not to participate.
Because this case is moot, the Supreme Court should dismiss the appeal for lack of jurisdiction, FFRF concludes. Alternatively, as “it is improper and a gross violation of freedom of conscience to coerce or even encourage student athletes to pray in order to play,” FFRF urges the high court to affirm the ruling of the 9th Circuit against Coach Kennedy.
FFRF Senior Counsel Patrick Elliott is the lead drafter and counsel of record for the brief.
In his “devotional,” John had this to say about FFRF, atheists, agnostics, and, in his words, haters of God and religion:
Throughout the USA, we have seen religious freedoms erode as a small faction of atheists, agnostics, and haters of God and religion rear their vile heads. Even in Washington, a group of preachers and priests joined with the Freedom From Religion crowd to voice opposition to Kennedy. One of those voices was the “Right Reverend Douglas Avilesbernal, executive minister of the Evergreen Association of American Baptist Churches, which includes Bremerton.”
John is a Trumpist and a white Christian Nationalist. He believes the United States is a Christian nation. Thus, he has no problem with the Kennedys of the world violating the separation of church and state or the establishment clause. If Joe Kennedy was a Muslim, John would be outraged. But, he’s not, so Kennedy trampling all over the separation of church and state is fine, by him. Go, Jesus, Go!
John is befuddled by pastors who voiced opposition to Kennedy. I am sure he doubts their “salvation.” However, these ministers rightly understand that we cannot have freedom of (and from) religion without there being a strict, inviolable wall of separation between religion and government. John, seemingly, is fine with mixing church and state as long as it is his religion that is given preferential treatment.
I want John to know that when he goes on rants as mentioned above, I take his words personally. When you attack FFRF, atheists, and agnostics, you are attacking me. You are attacking my family, friends, and neighbors. You are attacking my wife and some of my children and grandchildren. Do better, John, do better. Try acting like a Christian. Jesus said in Luke 6:27-28:
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
How many atheists and agnostics have you loved today, John?
Repent!
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
When you say homosexuality is an abomination . . . you are saying your gay son and neighbor are abominable.
When you say all non-Christians will go to Hell when they die . . . you are saying your non-Christian mother, son, and neighbor will be tortured by God in the flames of the Hell for eternity.
When you say abortion is evil, sick, and murder . . . you are saying those who are pro-choice are evil, sick murderers.
When you say Christians are idiots . . . you are saying your Christian mother and grandfather are idiots.
When you say people on welfare are lazy, good for nothing bums . . . you are saying your out-of-work cousin with cancer is a lazy, good for nothing bum.
When you say atheism is immoral . . . you are saying that your atheist daughter and cousin are immoral.
You can’t divorce your words from their implications.
Words matter.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
According to an email I received several years ago, my present life is NOT how I present it within the pages of this blog. A Christian man by the name Nathan Smith says I am lying when I say I am happy. He also says my life is absent of compassion, freedom, and happiness, despite me saying differently. Smith challenges my manhood, saying that if I truly was a brave man I would ask a cognitive behaviorist to render their opinion on my written work. You mean the secular psychologist I see every week, the woman who reads my writing and encourages me to keep telling my story?
Smith writes:
Reading your blog doesn’t give any impression that the humanistic life is full of the kind of compassion, freedom, and happiness you say it is. If Christians serve something man-made, then they are simply doing what comes naturally to them as humans; something any true humanist would be able to understand with a lot more compassion than you seem able to demonstrate. If you were free, you would not feel compelled to continue in your devotion to Christ and His Church; albeit in hostility. Moreover, if you were happy, you would not view everything through the lens of this hostility. If humanism were true of Bruce Gerenscer [sic], the battle would have ended when he left the Church, yet here he is still playing the part with fervor.
You will be glad to hear that your new life’s work is questionable without even invoking God or scripture. If you are brave enough, let a cognitive behaviorist evaluate this blog and compare it with your stated reasons for writing it; that way you can hear from the kind of secular, educated, scientific individual you now esteem that you are completely full of it.
I will leave it to you the reader to decide if Smith’s observations ring true.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
One of the ways evangelicals have processed a growing awareness of religious abuse has been through starting conferences. The Exiles in Babylon Conference offered many helpful insights to racial trauma but continued to advance narratives that have caused sexual trauma in the church. The Restore 2022 Conference brought complementarians like Karen Swallow Prior and egalitarians like Scot McKnight together to discuss topics such as where God is during abuse, healing from religious trauma, and how churches enable abuse. Their goal was to address these issues within the framework of “restoring faith in God and the church.”
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But too often with these conferences, there are underlying theological assumptions that fuel power dynamics that do not get questioned to the degree that they should. And when your stated goal is to restore faith in the church, you have theological territory to protect and are invested in a certain outcome that people who have been traumatized by the church may not be ready for or interested in.
Many people are having enough and deciding to leave evangelical churches while mourning the loss of their communities and hoping to discover a healthier experience of Christianity.
But many are leaving Christianity altogether.
Because conservative evangelical media outlets such as The Gospel Coalition continue to bloviate about those who are either deconstructing or deconverting, one has to wonder: Are conservative evangelicals at all willing to sit quietly and listen to those who have left?
And are progressive evangelicals any healthier at silent listening?
Imagine a space for processing such religion-fueled trauma that is led by formerly religious people for formerly religious people. Would it be possible for religious people to sit in silence and learn from atheists and agnostics about how their religion has caused deep trauma, consider how the formerly religious are healing, and learn from their insights in order to heal themselves?
Or must Christians always be leading and talking?
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Theology by definition is concerned about the ultimate questions in life: questions about whether there is a God, why there is something rather than nothing, the purpose of life, our relationship with ourselves and everyone around us, and what happens after death.
As children, we long for the love and affirmation of our parents. And yet, we’re afraid of how big the world is and how insufficient our understanding of it feels.
In some ways, we’re asking, “Are we OK? And are we safe?”
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[Janice] Selbie told BNG: “People embrace religions because they were born into them or turned to them during times of transition and vulnerability. Religion promises certainty, security, order and community. People remain religious for those very reasons, as well as fear of hell.”
For the formerly religious to walk away from their certainty, security, order and community can be one of the most vulnerable decisions anyone ever makes. “Divorcing religion means loss of family, community, support and identity. It is too hard for many even to consider,” Selbie said.
To walk away from the certainty of heaven is to embrace the possibility of hell. To walk away from the theology of your family is to embrace the disapproval that you spent years trying to avoid. To walk away from the support of your church community is to embrace the possibility of nobody being there for you when you face a life-threatening illness or when you simply want to hang out with familiar friends.
Deconstruction and deconversion can be like Pinocchio leaving the identity-forming, punishment threatening world of Pleasure Island and moving toward Monstro the whale — the ultimate danger everyone around you fears — for the sake of being present with who you’re learning to love, namely yourself and your neighbors.
But abusive theology preys on our mental, social, spiritual and sexual longings and infuses within us an identity that we’re fundamentally a problem and that we’re forever going to be punished.
Darrel Ray, founder and president of Recovering From Religion, explained during his session, “It’s like you can’t utter the word ‘sex’ without the word ‘sin’ coming out within the same sentence in almost any religious environment, especially if it’s conservative or fundamentalist. … The ideology itself plays a role in the trauma you experience.”
Of course, many kinder, gentler evangelicals might object, thinking that somehow you can hold to theologies that form negative self-identities and that celebrate justice through violence without being abusive, or suggesting that Christians are much kinder than in centuries past. To that defense, Ray asserts: “We may not be lopping people’s heads off. But I’m telling you, I’ve met plenty of Baptists who have been traumatized by the ideology of their Baptist faith and their church because there’s nowhere for a child to escape if they’re in that church and they’re constantly being told the outside is dangerous.”
In a recent podcast episode, author and former megachurch pastor Rob Bell said: “The water, if you’re a fish, is so difficult to see. The reason it’s so difficult to see is because everyone around you is swimming in it. There’s no observance of it because it’s the thing everybody’s immersed in. It’s too close to see.”
Formerly religious people have had the experience of swimming in the water that religious people exist in, yet currently have the perspective from standing on the beach.
According to [Janice] Selbie, it is not merely enough for Christians to redefine the water they’re swimming in to a more progressive understanding. She believes true perspective and the fullest healing comes when people leave the water altogether.
“I think even progressive Christians are still ‘drinking the Kool-Aid.’ I don’t typically invite still-religious people to speak at CORT because I think continued affiliation with the Bible is unhealthy when it comes to the LGBTQ community, safety of children and women’s rights.”
Progressive Christians tend to object. “In public and private, I receive angry input from ‘progressive’ Christians for not inviting them to speak at CORT. I won’t risk further traumatizing attendees by doing so, although I do still have Christian family. I do not think it’s possible for evangelicals or other religiously entrenched people to be trauma sensitive with regard to religious trauma, although they vehemently disagree.”
While Selbie would admit that not even all her conference speakers would agree with her belief in the necessity of leaving the water altogether, her assertion that religion encourages “fantasy over reality and often creates massive division (in family and nation) and trauma (individual and collective)” has been demonstrably true.
Atheists and agnostics who spend significant time invested in the church are especially positioned to bring clarity to how theology fosters abuse because they know the theology, they’ve experienced the power dynamics involved, and because they are free to question every facet of Christian theology and power.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
On occasion, an Evangelical commenter will suggest that deep down in my heart of hearts I KNOW that I am still a Christian; that my claiming to be an agnostic/atheist is a ruse or some sort of misdirection meant to lead people away from finding out the truth about what and who I really am. Such a conclusion is derived from reading my writing through blood-of-Jesus-colored glasses, seeing faith where there is none. Several years ago, one commenter even went so far as to suggest that my capitalization of words such as Bible, Heaven, and Hell, was proof that I am, despite my protestations, still a Christian. Taking this approach, of course, allows once-saved-always-saved Baptists to square my past with the present. Once saved by the miracle-working power of Jesus, no matter what I say or do, I cannot be separated from the love of God. No matter how hard I try to divorce myself from God or run from his presence, I remain eternally married to Jesus. Jesus is the epitome of the abusive husband in a no-divorce state. The only way to be free of Jesus is to kill him. I wonder . . . is it possible to kill Jesus twice? 🙂
Most thinking people will recognize that the aforementioned argument is absurd and makes a mockery of what it means to be a follower of Jesus Christ. Salvation is reduced to intellectual assent to a set of propositional facts about the nature of God, the human condition, the need of redemption, the threat of judgment, and the promise of eternal life. If someone, as I did when a fifteen-year-old boy, sincerely believes these facts, then he or she is instantly and eternally saved. After being instantaneously saved, it matters not how the saved sinner lives. He SHOULD desire to live right. Indwelt by the Holy Spirit, those born from above SHOULD desire to attend church, pray, read the Bible, and follow the commands and precepts of God. But if they don’t, they are still saved, no matter what! In other words, a Christian could renounce Jesus, reject the teachings of the Bible, embrace atheism, and live a life of debauchery; it matters not, he is still saved. Supposedly, such a life would bring God’s judgment and chastisement, but if it doesn’t, the Christian is still saved. Several Christians have suggested my health problems are God’s chastisement of me for my rebellion against him. The problem with this line of argument is that my health problems started years and decades before I divorced myself my Jesus. What was God up to then?
If I am still, way down in the depths of my imaginary soul, a Christian, why would I claim to be an agnostic/atheist now? Point to one good thing that comes from me professing to be an atheist. I live in rural Northwest Ohio. The Evangelical Jesus is on public display everywhere I look. In the Williams/Defiance/Fulton/Henry County area, three hundred churches dot the landscape. Almost all of them skew to the right theologically and politically. I am not only an atheist, I am also a pacifist and a Democratic Socialist. I am everything most people in the quad-county area are not. Being an outspoken atheist has resulted in social ostracization. While I have in recent years tried to pick my battles more carefully, I am still labeled by Christian zealots as an immoral tool of Satan. I continue to despise the preferential treatment given to Christianity and I deplore attempts to promote theocratic thinking and scientific ignorance. I have concluded that locals can live with my godlessness as long as I don’t shove it in their faces. Of course, there is this little problem called The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser. Anyone who bothers to do a search on my name — I am the only Bruce Gerencser in the world — will quickly find out my views about God, Christianity, the Bible, Evangelicalism, Trump, right-wing politics, asphalt auto racing, and the designated hitter. I am not hiding my lack of belief as much as I am being more careful in choosing when, where, and how I want to take a stand against God and his anointed ones.
It seems to me that it would an easier path for me if I said I was a Christian and lived as most local Christians do — as practical atheists, espousing a cultural Christianity that is trotted out for holidays, weddings, funerals, and periodic outbursts of self-righteousness over perceived secular attacks on the baby Jesus. I would, in effect, live as if God doesn’t exist. Such living is hypocrisy at its best — saying one is a Christian, yet living as if God is a myth. Surely, if people say they are Christians, shouldn’t they make a good faith effort to live according to teachings of the Bible? Shouldn’t their lives reflect their beliefs?
I can’t think of one rational reason for me to still be a Christian, yet claim to be an atheist. Being a Christian, even in name only, is a path of ease, one that requires nothing from me. Atheism, on the other hand, brings social and cultural criticism, ostracism, and attack. I do my best to be an example of a good atheist, someone who lives according to the humanistic ideal. I try to let my good works show the kind of man, husband, father, and grandfather I am. I want local Christians to know that people can be unbelievers and still live moral and ethical lives. Most of all, I want my life to be a glaring contradiction when how I live is compared to presuppositions and stereotypes about atheists. A Christianity worth having is evidenced not by beliefs, but by how a follower of Jesus lives. So it is with atheists. How we live our day-to-day lives is vitally important. People are watching us, trying to figure out what kind of people we really are. I want to be the best atheist in town, one who loves his fellow man and, when needed, lends his care and support to those in need. Surely, atheists and Christians alike should desire what is best not only for their progeny, but also for their friends and neighbors.
If you can come up with a reason for someone to still be a Christian, yet claim to be an atheist, please share it in the comment section below.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Joe, the Evangelical, continues to email me. The count is now up to twenty-five comments and twenty emails. Today, Joe emailed me at 12:19 pm, 12:29 pm, 12:46 pm, 1:34 pm, 1:54 pm, 4:06 pm, 6:17 pm, and 8:08 pm. Joe even went over to ex-christian.net and said:
I don’t know but thought I would drop in to say I am still investigating every angle of deconversion. An older ex-Christian named Bruce in Ohio just threw me off his board and told me to f&$#$k off! I remembered that the Moderator here has much thicker skin, and is far more respectful to people. The man in Ohio immediately took offense when I quoted 1 John 2:19. But I wasn’t the one stating what it says in the verse— John the Apostle was!
I have not responded to any of Joe’s emails today, and I don’t plan to do so. I do plan to address some of what he said later in this post.
Here’s what Joe — a man who thinks he is Jesus — had to say:
Email One
I should have known you would do this. You opened up a door for me to respond to you. I tried to be civil in my response to you. I even explained I never said you were going to hell. But you insist on painting me in the worst way possible, and still insist you have the right to tell another person to f$#$k off at your leisure. You have only reinforced by your posts the fact that reconverts are very, very angry people with malicious attitudes. I will also share your blog with others to show them how a deconverted man reacts to discussions about God. How his hate is the dominant force in his life. You lost your soul for sure when you turned from Jesus—you no longer have a heart. Hate consumes you and is hunting you down now. Praise God he has saved me and continued to keep me. I pray I never wind up like you.
Email Two
This will absolutely be my last email to you Bruce. One day this will be reviewed as everything else will be before the Judgment seat of Christ. You will realize on that day that MANY people have tried to persuade you to repent from your decision to deconvert. You will realize then how you have treated those same people. I don’t care what you say Bruce— I genuinely continued to post on your site not to snidely judge people but to hopefully warn them and cause them to turn. But you are too hateful to accept that. I think there are other “lurkers” on your site that will be amazed to see the amount of hate you have towards Jesus Christ. In trying to “reveal” me on your site you have truly revealed yourself. I hope they see that and turn back to Jesus, seeing what they will turn into if they continue to reject Jesus. You may have committed the sin in 1 John 5:16 and I pray others will read your posts and beware. I know your response to all of this: f&$&$k off! Unfortunately those are the main words in your vocabulary now. Hopefully I’ve made your board more interesting. I note the SEQUELS keep coming Bruce. Otherwise the board is quite predictable and boring. Narcissists normally do have quite boring boards. Yours is no exception.
Email Three
By the way, you continue to shoot yourself in the foot Bruce. It’s your blog but you are centering on ME. I’m very flattered. Will there be a Part 5 and 6 also. I’ll go get my popcorn.
Email Four
It’s time to ‘fess up. You’ve been played. That’s why I’ve repeated twice now that you’re shooting yourself in the foot. I was VERY surprised the last Deconversion board that I was on I was the one who left–I wasn’t “thrown off” like you are doing. lol.
That moderator was VERY COOL and kept his composure. He knew I would continue to make the claims I was making but allowed me to continue. There were no personal attacks between he and myself, but I could tell he was very angered at my saying he was never a believer. I expected to be cussed at and removed but he never did. I had written a thread called “Israel: proof of God’s existence”. It might appear if you Google it. I’ve forgotten the name of the site.
But every other site I have visited had the same result: make a few posts, suffer harsh criticism, a few begin to cuss at you (but I never cuss back), and eventually the moderator bans you, or takes away your rights to post.
When I stumbled onto your site about Halloween and realized you were a deconvert, I said to my wife “I’ll bet I get banned within a week”. LOL. You took away my posting rights within TWO DAYS.
The majority of you are very angry people. Just read the posts on your “I hate Jesus” thread Bruce. So it doesn’t take much to get most of you all riled up. There is the occasional Michael (whom I take seriously) who is cordial and civil. But the majority are just like you Bruce. Ever heard the term “thick skin”? Deconverts do NOT have thick skin. LOL.
I email you again and again to see how much more I can rile you up. Man, you’ve dedicated 3 threads to me due to your anger.
I showed the most recent addition to the thread, PART 3 to my wife and she said “you should stop doing that. Someone is going to have a heart attack”. But I told her it was too much fun watching the reactions I was getting. I told her that “These people hate Jesus so much they spend HOURS talking about it”. And you most certainly do.
And it is pure guilt. You are afraid and I don’t blame you. You are rejecting the Lord of eternity. It displays itself in your anger and repeated reassurances to one another that Jesus is all “make-believe”. But Hebrews 10:26-31 states you are “expecting fearful judgment” It is something you cannot shake off no matter how hard you try to.
But you have all made your own choice to “trample upon the Son of God” (Hebrews 10:27) so I will continue to “play you” Bruce.
Oh– did I just ruffle your little feathers by emailing you again? Whoops! LOL. “How dare he continue to email me? I am Bruce Almighty and I asked him not to!” Ha ha ha ha
Will this email be in Part 4? Please entitle it “I continue to shoot myself in the foot” followed by 4 eggplants shaped like penises. That would be great. Ha ha.
Email Five
Google: “Deconversion Israel proves the existence of God”. Scroll down about 6 links. This is where I posted as Fish153 for quite a while. It is www.ex-christian.net. The Moderator was amazing. Very patient person. I truly admire him. He allowed me to post many different things and was confident enough in his own skin to not take it personally or ban me. I eventually left the board on my own. But I was told to f$@#k off many times by those without thick skin. I would feign surprise at their actions, but would never return the cursing.
I left the board admiring the man for allowing ALL views. I leave your board laughing. Another one shoots himself in the foot! Lol.
Email Six
Sing it with me Brittany: “Oops I did it again. I emai-eld Bruce, and now he’ll get mad, and send those egg plants…”Hey I wanted to let you know I’m drumming up readers for your blog. I was on another deconvert blog where they have allowed me to continue for some time now. I mentioned you. I didnt give your full name. I just said “A thin-skinned ex-Pastor and ex-Christian from Ohio named Bruce threw me off his board for quoting 1John 2:19 and stating he was never a Christian”. These people are used to seeing 1 John 2:19 quoted and being told they were never Christians. It goes with the territory. I also mentioned you have given me top billing on your board— even making sequels in parts 2 and 3 (so far). So I’m sure some will come to visit very soon. I think it’s always nice to get more readers for a blog. It definitely cannot hurt. All the best to you!
Email Seven
This is Joe’s wife. He doesn’t know I am sending this. Please stop encouraging him. You said “if he emails me again I will post it below”. Of course he e-mailed you. You left a door open for him. I am pleading with you to stop. Ever since Joe was very young he has been extremely frightened of Santa Claus. He was frightened to the point of psychosis.
A couple of days ago my husband dashed into the living room in tears and cried out “Santa Claus just told me to fuck off!!”
I seriously did not know what he meant until I saw your picture. “Why? Why? Why would Santa Claus tell me to fuck off?? He asked me.
All I could tell him is that maybe Santa is frustrated. Maybe he can’t fit down a chimney any more.
I know you’re not Santa, but he thinks you are. After he saw your picture his psychosis returned. He is a sick man.
And then, to top it off you send eggplant emogis. Joe is allergic to two things: Eggplant and Ohio. We have to avoid Ohio because he breaks out in hives if he goes near there.
So I have to ask you. For the sake of my husband please cease and desist. Do not “invite” him to e-mail you again or he will most definitely. I am asking politely. Thank you for listening.
Email Eight
You know, I had read almost everything on your blog except “Dear Jesus”. Deconverts always say it was nothing personal in their lives that turned them away from God. They say it was because of something they read, or due to Science, etc.
But it ALWAYS turns out to be something in their lives that caused them to turn away. When I read “Dear Jesus” I now see clearly why you are an apostate. You “served” Jesus, but “blamed” Jesus your whole life.
Your Mom, the divorce–“where were you Jesus?” I understand now Bruce. I PROMISE to never send you another email. I have badgered you with emails because I was genuinely upset that a former “Pastor” would tell me to “f” off.
There is another site that I am visiting again. They are a bit more understanding. There are some quick to curse there also, but that is to be expected.
I wasn’t aware of your sad past.. I’m truly sorry. But I have a far better understanding for your deconversion now. “Dear Jesus” is a real eye-opener to those looking for reasons for deconversion. My past is also sad but I don’t blame God for it.
Good luck with your blog. I am deleting every link to your blog, and regret barraging you with e-mails. Now that I understand your reason for turning back I regret not stopping earlier.
— end of emails —
Joe’s comments speak for themselves. I do want to address several things.
First, The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser is a blog, not a board.
Second, this is my personal blog. This blog has comment rules. Joe read these rules. He deliberately chose not to abide by these rules. He has no respect for me or the readers of this blog. I gave Joe rope to hang himself because I thought his comments (and emails) would be instructive, a reminder of the vile, ugly underbelly of Evangelical Christianity. Joe has certainly delivered.
Third, Joe has not read most of the 4,369 posts on this site. In fact, based on the server logs, Joe has read less than twenty posts.
Fourth, based on the server logs, this site has received no traffic from any of the ex-Christian sites.
If you have been reading this series of posts, it should be clear to you by now that Joe is a gaslighter, a liar, a bully, someone who isn’t used to someone standing up to him.
While Joe “apologized” in his last email, I don’t buy his apology, nor do I accept it. Joe is like an abusive husband who beats the shit out of his wife, abuses her with his words, and psychologically terrorizes her. And then, one day, he profusely apologizes to his wife, professes his love for her, promises to never, never abuse her again, and gives her $100 to buy a new dress. All is well, right? Nope. Days or weeks later, the husband abuses his wife again, a pattern of behavior that has been going on for years. Cause harm, apologize, cause harm, apologize, cause harm, apologize.
Joe tried to harm me, but failed. He tried to psychologically terrorize me, but failed. he tried to wound me, but failed. You see, contrary to what Joe says, I do have thick skin. Scores of “Joes” have come before Joe Sperling. I have been attacked and abused by God’s chosen ones over, and over, and over again. Years ago, Joe’s emails and comments would have caused harm. A decade of counseling has taught me how to deal with the Joes of the world. One way is to expose them, and that’s what I’ve done. Another way is to take their power away, the power to cause harm. And finally, putting people such as Joe in their place can be cathartic. I told Joe to “go fuck yourself,” not out of anger, but because I can. Joe can’t control what I say and that infuriates him.
Joe has repeatedly said he wouldn’t contact me again. We will see if he is a man of his word.
This is the last post in this series. Any further emails will be appended to this post.
Joe send me the following after this post was published:
Bruce– You tried to harm me and you succeeded. You tried to terrorize me and you succeeded. You tried to belittle me and you succeeded. Congratulations and goodbye.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
What you have done to the least of these my brethren you have done to me”. That verse seems to imply Bruce that who you were really telling to f%#$k off is Jesus not me, because I belong to Jesus.
Despite telling me four times that he would stop contacting me, Joe continues to send me emails:
Being human my curiosity caused me to check back on your site tonight. I was surprised you had extended the thread to a “Part 2”. I am not “outraged” at all. Just still shaking my head a little in disbelief that you told me “f$#$k you Joe” and then “f%$%k off!” That was in no way warranted. In fact, I didn’t say anything about your mental health until AFTER you had cursed me. I was using sarcasm (as I am sure many who read my email could easily surmise) when I said I was writing a chapter for a book about Abnormal Psychology. That was purely tongue in cheek.
I was just very surprised that you would find it “easy” to address someone in that way. I had even posted a message for Michael because of his civility, and his taking the time to list (4) points he wanted me to consider. The only post that had caused a truly negative response was when I spoke of slavery to point out they had no formal education due to their being in chains, but were very wise people. Sage took offense that I used slavery in my analogy. I told her she was being “touchy”. She is entitled to say whatever she wants to say though, and I need to learn to use different analogies in the future. But I never once found it within my right to tell her or anyone else for that matter to “f$#%k off”!
A blog like yours is set up to allow discussions to take place, so I was very surprised that you “silenced” me so soon. And then on top of that thought you had the right to tell me to “f%$%k off.” I disagree with people but never feel I have the right to say something like that to them. I do appreciate your allowing me to post my thoughts though. It is YOUR blog so you can run it as you see fit. I am only sending this email because you said you would allow me one more.
By the way, I never said you were on your way to hell. I said I felt intense sadness that deconverts will “miss out” and feel deep embarrassment when standing before Jesus one day. I will not take back that thought. I DO feel intense sadness when thinking of that. I know you don’t believe in a Judgment seat, but I do. One of the “laws of physics” says something to the effect of “for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction” (again, just a paraphrase if I’ve gotten the quote wrong). You believe we all just die and that’s it. You see I think the “law” I mentioned above can also apply to the spiritual realm. Did Heinrich Himmler just “die” and everything about him is now gone? Perhaps you can believe that, but I cannot. His “actions” caused untold grief to thousands and thousands of people. I believe one day, before the Great White Throne he will be asked to explain why he did what he did, and will be judged for it. I think we ALL must stand before God and explain why we did what we did.
“What you have done to the least of these my brethren you have done to me”. That verse seems to imply Bruce that who you were really telling to f%#$k off is Jesus not me, because I belong to Jesus.
I will not contact you again. All I can do is hope that any of the deconverts on the board might think twice about their decision. I know that 99% will say there is no need to re-consider. But there might be that 1%. And as that famous line Jim Carrey says in “Dumb and Dumber” “so you’re telling me I still have a chance!!??”
God bless you.
Where, oh where do I begin? As you can see, Joe is just a poor, misunderstood bloke who didn’t do anything to warrant me telling him to “go fuck himself.” His words speak for themselves. Joe tries to paint himself as a victim. He states that he was surprised I “silenced” him so soon. 🙂 Uh, Joe left twenty-five comments and sent me a dozen emails. He more than said his piece, even after I asked him repeatedly to stop contacting me.
Joe believes he is Jesus, that when I told him to “fuck off” I was really saying these words to Jesus. No, Joe, I am telling YOU, flesh and blood Joe, to “go fuck himself.” Not Jesus. Jesus is a dead man. Why would I tell him to “fuck off.” Besides, I don’t have a problem with Jesus, It’s you, Joe, and others like you I have a problem with.
Joe thinks that his words on this site might “help” a few deconverts who read my writing — maybe one percent. I think I can confidently say that Joe has helped them, reminding them of how glad they are to be free of Jesus and away from those who say they speak on his behalf.
I replied to Joe’s latest email. Here’s what I had to say:
Trigger Warning to Joe. This email contains swear words.
Joe,
You seem to think I give a shit about what you think. I don’t. You’ve told me four times you wouldn’t contact me again, yet you continue to email me. Why is that?
Stop the gaslighting, Joe. Own your behavior instead of blaming everyone else for how people responded to you. Stop lying. I never told you that you could email me one more time. Why the fuck would I do that? You know I told you that you could leave one more comment, which you did. So, don’t even suggest I said I wanted to hear from you again.
I don’t buy for a moment your claim that you were being sarcastic about the book blurb and my mental health. You intended your words to wound.
You are supposedly a grown-ass man, Joe. You can’t handle someone telling you to “fuck off” in an email? Especially since my response to your behavior was warranted. You seem to think you can say and do whatever you want without people responding to you. Not on my blog. I’ve dealt with countless Joe Sperlings over the years. I refuse to let them bully me, attack my character, or shit all over my blog. You ran into the wrong atheist, dude.
You say you are a Christian. You say you are a follower of Jesus. Yet, your behavior is anything but Christian. What did Jesus tell you about how to treat your enemies? How would Jesus have responded if someone told him to “fuck off”? WWJD?
I intend to make our email interaction public. This allows my readers a look at how Evangelicals behave, exposing the ugly underbelly of Evangelicalism. You have done a good job advancing the cause of atheism.
If you want to continue to harass me, I suggest you start a blog. It’s free, takes five minutes, then you can deconstruct my life to your heart’s content.
Bruce Gerencser
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
