Tag Archives: Falling From Grace

Can Anyone Really Know They Are Saved?

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Yes.

No.

Maybe.

What do I mean by the word saved? Delivered. Redeemed. Set free. Bought by the blood. Justified.(looked at by God just as if I never sinned)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.(Romans 10:9, 10)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8.9)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3,4)

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began (2 Timothy 1:9)

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

oops. Scratch that last one. Don’t want to start a war between the Baptists and the Campbellites. (Church of Christ)

Let me set aside, for a moment, the fact that these verses teach several different salvations. Most Christians interpret these verses, and others, in a very basic, generic way.

I am a sinner. Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. Three days later he resurrected from  the dead. Believing this message I admit I am a sinner, I repent of my sins and by faith I trust Jesus to forgive me of my sins and save me. I am trusting Jesus to save me and keep me until I die. By putting my faith and trust in Jesus I know I will go to heaven when I die. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

There are three basic schools of thought when it comes to salvation. (and yes I know there are shades of all of these. Please, spare me the emails and comments that I didn’t properly describe YOUR tribe)

There is the “once saved, always saved” school. According to this school of thought once a person is saved they can never be un-saved. No matter what the person does, no matter how the person lives, they are saved forever. A person can stop attending Church, stop doing ANYTHING that remotely suggests that they are saved, yet “once saved, always saved.” One noted writer even said that a person could go to the altar and be saved and then leave the Church, curse God, and live like a heathen the remainder of their life…it matters not, “once saved, always saved.”

This is the belief of most Baptists and many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists. Salvation becomes a form of “fire insurance.” People don’t want to go to hell, so they get saved. Whew, that’s over. Next!

Coupled with this belief is the notion that the believer will be rewarded some day for doing the right things in this life. 2 Corinthians 5:10 says For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. So, a person might be “once saved always saved” but if they don’t live right they will lose their rewards in heaven. What this loss of rewards is is never clearly defined. Maybe their mansion won’t have indoor plumbing? (John 14:1-6)

Some “once saved always saved” believers realize that their version of salvation really looks bad. They know their brand of salvation looks like it is preaching a “live like hell, still go to heaven” message.

To counter this they teach that Christians who live carnally will be chastised (corrected) by God in this life. If a carnal Christian is not chastised it is proof that they were never “really” saved. After all the Bible says in Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Arminian groups  hold to a conditional salvation. They believe a person is saved by grace but kept by works. (works they do by the power of God so it is really all of grace) In this school of thought a person can only know they are saved in the present moment. Their future salvation is conditioned on them doing the right things. This is the belief of groups like the Free-Will Baptists, Methodists, Wesleyans, etc.(groups who trace back their heritage to John and Charles Wesley and Jacobus Arminius)

A believer can do certain things that will result in the loss of salvation. Some Arminian groups believe you can only lose your salvation one time. In other word, “once saved, one lost, always lost.” The Bible says in Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Other Arminian groups believe a person can repeatedly saved, lost, saved, lost, saved. They often talk about a line that is crossed, when a person goes from a state of grace to being lost again. I have asked repeatedly over the years exactly where that line is and no one can tell me. I have been told by more than one Arminian preacher, “You just KNOW when you have crossed the line.”

The final school of thought is the Calvinistic school. Calvinist groups, like the Presbyterians, some Baptists, Episcopalians,etc adhere to what is commonly called the five points of Calvinism. (which were actually articulated as a reply to the Arminians) Point number five is the Perseverance of the saints or the Preservation of the saints.

Perseverance of the saints is  “once saved, always saved” with a twist.  Calvinists believe that salvation is a work done totally by God. From start to finish it is God who does it all. A person can not believe, exercise faith, or anything apart from God giving them the power to do so. Those whom God saves, God keeps. Now, God only saves a certain number of people. God knows exactly how many he will save. They are the elect. They have been predestined to salvation.

The God who saves is the God who causes the believer to persevere to the end. If a person doesn’t persevere to the end then that is proof that they were never saved to start with. For this reason the Calvinistic commenters on this blog consider me unsaved, never having been saved. I didn’t persevere. I have received common grace but not God’s special, saving grace. In other words, God toyed with me and then said fuck you.

No Calvinist can know for sure they are saved. They can HOPE they are. They can constantly examine their lives to see if they are availing themselves to the means of grace, but until they die they can not know for sure they are saved. They MUST persevere to the end to be sure. They are hoping God comes through for them but they won’t know for sure until the end. After all they TOO could be deluded. They TOO could be following a false Christ.

Imagine a person going Church to Church trying to find out the true Christian message of salvation.  You would think Christians could agree on the most basic of truths…salvation.

But they don’t.

I am convinced that Christians better hope that God is a universalist. If not…hell is going to be filled with Christians.

Another Christian Who Doesn’t Get It

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Deon Nel43, a devout, I know I am right, filled with the Holy Ghost Christian, left the following comment recently. Since his comments currently are languishing in purgatory I thought I would share one of his comments with you. My response to Deon Nel43’s comment is in bold italics.

It is sad to notice that when people on this site describe their past conversion, it ends up to be something like:

  1. Being a member of a church.
  2. Doing what the church and the pastor expected i.e. reading my bible, praying, outreach etc..
  3. Having lots of zeal and being sincere or even on fire for the Lord.

I don’t know of anyone who describes their conversion this way. No one. Nada. Zip. Zero. The things listed by Deon Nel43 are what we would have called the fruit of, the evidence that we had been converted.

Is Deon Nel43 suggesting that Christians aren’t members of a church, don’t have to submit to those who the rule over them, don’t need to pray or read their Bible? Is Deon Nel43 suggesting that Christians shouldn’t be zealous  unto good works? (I would be glad to provide proof texts for each one of these. Let the Bible dueling begin)

Or is this just a straw man argument? Match! Burnt!

 

Bruce’s testimony of his past Christian experience sounds much the same and is also a bit confusing.

See above.

In one post he says that his past experiences was ‘REAL’ yet he turned his back on it??? Figure that one out. Maybe he should say that he was sincere.

It was real because it was real. It was my life. I lived it. I know what I experienced. Is Deon Nel43 suggesting I had a out-of-body experience of some sort?

And I was sincere too. Deon Nel43 wants to paint me as someone who was sincere but lost. Someone who knew the “facts” but didn’t possess them. The only problem with this argument is that it is not true. This is just Deon Nel43’s way of dismissing a story (mine) that he can’t explain within his version Christianity.

That I can understand but how can something be real and then discarded like a dirty rag? Contradiction of words used. Unfortunately, the conversions described on this blog are not the conversions spoken of in scripture.

Who discarded Christianity like a dirty rag? I didn’t. It took several years before I was willing to say I was no longer a Christian. I agonized over this and it was, by far, the hardest decision I ever made in my life.

It took a lot more soul searching to get unsaved than it ever took to get saved. People like Deon Nel43 have never walked the path of deconversion so they have no idea how difficult it is to come to a place where you are willing to walk away from that which you considered precious and true.

conversion has always been:

  1. A personal conviction of one’s fallen state and sinfulness
  2. A personal revelation of my inability to do what God requires consistently.
  3. A personal  revelation of His justice and goodness and that those who do such things will not go unpunished.
  4. A personal revelation of God’s love towards one in Jesus Christ.
  5. A personal revelation of Jesus, the need for His death on the cross, His resurrection and ascension.
  6. Jesus personally coming to live in the person through the infilling of His Spirit.

Memo to Deon Nel43: When I was a Christian I wholeheartedly, without revelation believed every one of your six points of conversion. Not only did I believe them, I preached them to others.

Of course, I know how Deon Nel43 will respond to this…….I didn’t  REALLY believe these things, because if I did I would still be a Christian.

And around and around we go….

Bible conversion therefore takes place when one had the above mentioned revelation, then turns from serving himself and gives himself fully to the Lord never to turn back (true repentance). God will then fill him with His Spirit as He promised. When His Spirit enters that person, a change takes place. This change is describe in the bible as ‘being born from ABOVE’ and ‘conversion’. Conversion is the same as transformation and metamorphosis e.g. a worm that transforms into a butterfly.
How can one be transformed and not know it? How can one have a revelation of one’s sinfulness, of God’s love and righteousness, of Jesus Himself and having His Spirit abiding inside one and still be totally unaware of it? How can one turn from darkness to light and see no difference?

Right, I agree Deon Nel43. I knew it and so did many others who read this blog, people who were once Christians and not they are not. We were there when Jesus saved us. We were there when Jesus transformed our lives. Our lives changed. Our attitudes and desires changed. We were transformed, born from above.

The bottom line is this, Deon Nel43……we were every bit a Christian at one time as you are now. I don’t care if you can square this with your particular brand of theology. You only show yourself to be ignorant when you continue to paint us as those who “never were saved.”

The answer is plain.The conversion experienced does not come from above but is earthly, sensual and demonic and should be repented of, rejected, and cast away…

However there are a true conversion that leads to an abundant life here and in the hereafter…

Here is what is plain for all to see. Neon Del43 thinks his interpretation of the Bible is truth and that his experience is normative, thus anyone who does not believe like he believes is not a Christian. Simply put, Neon Del43 is the template for all those who want to be Christian.

The real issue here is that Deon Nel43 doesn’t know what to do with the former Christians on this site. His theology tells him a true follower of Jesus can’t fall from grace yet we are….fallen from grace. Rather than recognize that his theology might be wrong he insists that people like me “never were saved.” (and I can make a persuasive case for “falling from grace.”)

Deon Nel43 is just another example of a Christian who doesn’t get it. Many have come before him and I am sure many more will follow.

The Logical Consequences of You Never Were a Christian

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Baptists, Calvinists, and anyone who believes a Christian can not fall from grace are forced to say someone like me was never a Christian. Arminians have less of a problem with me because they believe a person can fall from grace. Most Arminians readily admit that I was once a Christian and now I am not. I appreciate Arminians who respect the work I did as a Christian and a pastor. 

People who believe a Christian can not fall from grace are forced to dismiss me as a life-long deceptive, servant of Satan. Basically, for 36 years I deceived every Christian, every church member,  every pastor, every Evangelist, every Christian college professor I came in contact with, and most of all I deceived my entire Christian family.

No one, over a span of 36 years, ever said “Bruce Gerencser is not a Christian.”  Think about this for a moment. Think of the deception necessary to pull this off.

  • I preached thousands of sermons…all preached in the power of the flesh.
  • I  prayed thousands of prayers, none of which were ever heard by God.
  • Hundreds of people who made professions of faith did so after hearing the preaching of a deceiver, a worker for Satan.
  • Hundreds of people who were baptized by me were baptized by a charlatan, a deceiver, a man who rejected the Baptismal vows confessed during a baptism.
  • I counseled hundreds of people over the years. Every person I counseled received counsel from a false prophet.
  • Every moment spent in private prayer, every moment spent in devoted study of the Word of God…….all the time spent in devotion to the living Christ was spent as a person no better than Judas.

See how silly this is?

It is time for the “once saved always saved” crowd, the “perseverance/preservation of the saints” crowd to change their thinking about apostates like me.

I was a Christian and now I am not…….Theology be damned.

Think of the verse in the graphic at the top of the page. Ye shall know them by their fruits……

What did my fruit  give testimony of?

It seems a lot of my critics are determined to look at an apple tree loaded with apples and say……I see no fruit.

What the Bible Says About Apostates Like Me

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There is an irreconcilable conflict between Jesus and Paul and Peter when it comes to how to view apostates that were once followers of Jesus

Progressive, liberal, kind-hearted Christians stress the two great laws emphasized by Jesus in Mark 12:28-33:

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Love God and love your fellow man. All the laws of the Bible are summed up in these two commands, Love God and love your fellow man. If Christians truly embraced these two commands I suspect I would have very little to write about on this blog.

Sadly most CHRISTians live in denial of the teachings of Christ. They are ensconced in the teaching of Paul and Peter, and they most often live lives in total denial of the teachings of the man they claim is their Lord and Savior.

This is clearly shown by their response to people like me. For some reason, an evangelical pastor turned atheist is such a threat to the Christian faith of some that I must be attacked and ridiculed at every opportunity. So sharp are their attacks that I had to implement comment moderation and limit abusive commenters to one comment. (my thinking is they get one chance to tell me what an awful man I am so they better make it count, kind of like an enema) 

Where does this need to attack and ridicule come from? Is it just a reflection of their lack of civility, maturity or a lack of character? I am sure this explains some of their behavior but I think they really do believe the Bible gives them  warrant to say the things they say.

What does the Bible say?

Peter writes in 2 Peter 2:1-22:

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

How does Peter describe people like me?

  • A false teacher who brings upon himself  swift destruction
  • A person who, with his words, manipulates people for material gain
  • A person who deserves the judgment and damnation of God
  • A person who is like the people God killed in the flood, the people God killed with fire and brimstone at Sodom and Gomorrah, and like the  rebellious angels God  cast out of heaven
  • Like a dog who eats its own vomit
  • Like a sow wallowing in the mud
  • Like Balaam

Let’s face it Peter describes people like me in such a way that many Christians conclude we are worthy of all the derision we receive.

Paul writes in 2 Timothy 3:1-10

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their’s also was.

Paul paints a lurid picture of apostates like me. Paul says my “folly” will be made manifest to all men and many Christians feel they have the gift of manifestation.

Paul writes in Romans 1:16-32:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

People like me are described as those who hold the truth in unrighteousness. We worship the creation rather than the creator. We refuse to acknowledge God and we give him no worship or thanks. Our foolish hearts are darkened and we are vain in our imaginations. Result? God gives us over to a reprobate mind.

According to the Bible I am a reprobate, a person beyond the grace of God., a person who has already secured a berth in hell.

In Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-29 Paul makes it clear that people like me have no hope of God ever extending grace to us again:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, f they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

These verses make it clear that apostates like me have no second chance. We have spit in the face of God, we have trampled under our feet the blood of Jesus, and we have spited the spirit of grace.  We are enemies of God.

According to the Bible, since I am a unregenerate, unsaved person I have a deceitful, wicked heart. I am incapable of doing good and I am unable to love in the truest sense of the word. (because true love comes from God)

I make no bones about my beliefs. I don’t believe there is a god. I don’t believe that Jesus was God nor do I believe he died on the cross for my sins and resurrected from the dead three days later. I totally reject the Christians concept of original sin. I also reject any notion that suggests the Bible is a divine book written by God, a book that every human being is obligated to obey. I am an atheist.

At one time I believed the Bible was the inspired, inerrant Word of God. I believed that there was one God  and that Jesus, the son of God, died on the cross for my sins and rose from the dead  three days later, thus vanquishing sin and death. I believed that Jesus was the way, truth, and life. As Paul said of himself, I at one time said of myself, I KNOW in whom I have believed…At one time, according to the book of 1 John, I had a know-so salvation.

Christian people who meet me, interact with me on Facebook, or trade emails with me are often faced with a dilemma. I am a nice guy who is kind and compassionate most of the time. I love my family and I love my neighbors. My “good” works stack up quite favorably with many of the super-saints that come to this blog to tell me what their God thinks of me.  Ask the people who know me about my life and character. I have no doubt the report will be favorable.  (I am not perfect to be sure but I am a better Christian than many of the Christians I know)

But, the Bible says……….. I know some Christians want to see me in a good light, but doing so puts them in direct conflict with the Bible. Paul and Peter are not ambiguous on the matter. What’s it going to be?

I fully understand why some Christians believe that I am a deadly enemy, an enemy they are commanded to wage war against. (Ephesians 6) Thousands of people read this blog and, in the minds of the warring faithful, I am an enemy of their eternal souls. They feel obligated to speak up for God, Jesus, the Bible, and the Christian faith. They feel they will be rewarded by God for standing up for the faith once delivered to the saints. Well done thou good and faith Servant. Enter in……

Some Christians attempt to navigate a third way when dealing with people like me. They think I was hurt by the Church and that my apostasy is an emotional response to the hateful, nasty, mean-spiritedness that is all too common in Evangelical Christianity. In their minds I am still a Christian, one that has been wounded by the Church.

I  readily admit there is an emotional component to my defection from Christianity. However, it is not the primary reason. The issue is, and remains so, that I do not believe the Bible is truth and I do not have the requisite faith to believe. I am the enemy of God.

I am quite happy when a liberal minded, progressive Christian sincerely attempts to  love me as their neighbor but I do understand WHY many Christians respond differently. The Bible is on their side. The liberal minded, progressive Christian has love, compassion, civility, and decency on their side. They are good people. But, if life is all about preparing to meet God, if it is allow about preparing for eternity, if it is all about keeping the commandments of God, then the Bible believers who eviscerate me and attempt to sodomize me with the words of the Bible clearly have God on their side.