Tag Archives: Sex

Does God Approve of Sex with Children?

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mosesAnd the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the Lord of Midian…

…And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males…And they slew the kings of Midian… And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods…

…And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho…

…And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.  And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?  Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (Numbers 31:1-18)

Under the command of  God and Moses, the Israelites waged war against the Midianites. They slaughtered the Midianites, eventually killing everyone except the virgin female children.

What should we make of this passage of  Scripture? On one hand, this  is just another example of God’s murderous genocidal rage. But the fact that the virgin female children are spared shows that God and Moses approve of Israelite men having sex with young girls.

Christian commentators, sensing that this passage of Scriptures seems to suggest that the Israelite men were permitted to have sex with these young virgin female children or were permitted to make them their concubines, go to great lengths to explain away the text says.

Speaking of Numbers 31:18, John Gill writes:

But all the women children,…. The females among the little ones:  that have not known a man by lying with him; which might be pretty clear, and easily concluded, from their age:  keep for yourselves; either to be handmaids to them, or to be married among them when grown up, and become proselytes, and initiated into their religion.

RA Torrey, in the Treasury of Scripture Knowledge states:

keep alive for yourselves: It has been groundlessly asserted, that Moses here authorized the Israelites to make concubines of the whole number of female children; and an insidious objection against his writings has been grounded upon this monstrous supposition. But the whole tenor of the law, and especially a statute recorded in Deu_21:10-14, proves most decisively to the contrary. They were merely permitted to possess them as female slaves, educating them in their families, and employing them as domestics; for the laws concerning fornication, concubinage, and marriage, were in full force, and prohibited an Israelite even from marrying a captive, without delays and previous formalities; and if he afterwards divorced her, he was to set here at liberty, “because he had humbled her.”

The above commentators would have us believe that the reason for keeping the young virgin female Midianites alive was for some other reason than to have sex with them.

However, it is clear from this story that God, Moses, and the Israelites were barbarians who slaughtered everyone who stood in their way. History shows us that other barbarous people saw young girls, young women, and women in general, as the spoils of war. Were the Israelites any different than other warring people? I doubt it.

While it certain that these young girls were used as slaves, it is ludicrous to think that the Israelite men did not have sex with them. Do Christians really expect us to believe that the violent Israelite men, who slaughtered men, women, and children, suddenly became kind, decent, moral Sunday School teachers when it came to the young virgin female Midianites?

One online commentator suggests that the Midianites were so evil that they had to be destroyed and that God was actually doing the young Midianite girls a favor by sparing them and integrating them into  God’s chosen people. However, any cursory reading of the Old Testament clearly reveals that evil people=anyone who did not worship the Israelite God.

The God commanded genocide found in the Old Testament is an insurmountable problem for Christians when  unbelievers bring it up.  No matter the explanation, one truth remains…God is a vicious, murderous deity who commanded his followers to kill everyone who does not worship Him.

Christians will often point to the Koran and its commands to kill the infidel, yet they seem to conveniently ignore that their own God commands the same thing.

I suppose a Christian might argue that we are under the New Covenant now and that God acts differently than he did in the Old Testament. While this might help the Christian sleep better at night, it doesn’t square with the fact that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The only answer for the Christian is to admit that God had anger management problems and that through counseling he is now a kinder, gentler God.

But…there is the last book of the Bible…the book of Revelation, and this book is a reminder that the Christian God has not changed at all. He remains, as he always has, a vicious, murderous deity who demands that everyone, under the penalty of death, worship Him.

Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Sex Education

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A guest post by Ian

Thanks to Pastor Steven Anderson, I thought back on the sex education I received while part of the IFB movement. I can be summed up like this: You’ll figure it out. God made it that way.

Since every thought and impulse of a man (I use man to mean man or woman) is evil, it needs to be brought into subjection by the Holy Spirit. The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life bring death to a person. Lust brings forth sin and sin brings forth death. Therefore, all emotions and feelings that aren’t God or church sanctioned are evil. Sexual urges and feelings in particular are evil. A woman showing cleavage can take down the strongest Christian man. Having a skirt that is shorter than the knee cap is asking for trouble, since a man’s lusts will be stirred up. For some reason, though, an Christian guy with skin tight jeans and a tight shirt showing off his muscles is OK. Do I believe this? Absolutely not; at least, not anymore anymore. This is what I was taught growing up, though.

These ideas are not too different from the ideas in Islam that a woman’s hair gives off rays that cause a man to go crazy. This is one of the reasons why Muslim women cover their head. Maybe Islam and Christianity have more in common than they think.

The puritanical ideas that the IFB movement believes are still very liberal compared to the Sovereign Grace/Calvinist (SG) movement, though. In SG ideology, we are all hopeless souls that had no chance of redemption until God chose a few. Read Jonathan Edward’s “Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God “ to get an idea of the hate rolling around in this group. The SG crowd decries all urges and feelings and uses them to prove how rotten you are. Then you are beat over the head because you are never able to escape these feelings. But, even this uber-conservative group can’t totally repress sexual urges. I have seen quite a bit of pre-marital sex among the teens who grew up under this system. Thankfully, all of the kids are saved, so it doesn’t matter what they do. All that is needed is to come to the front of the church and tearfully tell everyone that you are sorry for having sex. If the female is pregnant, you also declare your undying love and say you were planning on marrying her before this happened. Of course, all of the tears and declarations of sorrow only come after you have been caught and can’t explain your way out of it.

Because lustful feelings can be so easily stirred up in a person, sex is a taboo subject. Why would any sensible parent want to talk about sex with their kids, since it will only make them curious. This was the prevailing thought as I grew up. Things may have changed some, since more than 20 years have passed since I was in school. In the Christian curriculum I used, reproduction was a very formal subject. One line drawing each of the internal reproductive organs for men and women. Large words were used, probably to intimidate us and make us want to forget about what we were reading. The beauty and wonder of creating another life was reduced to a few pages of boring details. Think about explaining how a TV set works to someone who had never seen one and you’ll get the basic idea.

For all of that, though; kids will always be curious. I had gone to public schools as well as Christian schools and watched a lot of television and movies that other IFB kids wouldn’t have been exposed to. These two things gave me an above average amount of idea as to how babies were made. And, as curious minds will do, I spent a fair amount of time going over the details I knew, trying to fill in the blanks.

Keeping every bit of this knowledge away from a curious mind is a sure way to make sex a central thought. This will make for uptight people. I believe that much of the sex abuse in IFB churches stems directly from the sex non-education kids are given. Many of these abusers are products of churches and the warped teachings of their pastors.

Fast forward to the time of my wedding. I had a pretty good understand of how everything worked, since I had done a bit of extracurricular studies on the subject. My mom asked me a couple of times if I had any questions and I said no. How the heck was I going to look a female in the eye and ask questions about what I was going to do with my wife, when the subject had never come up before. Talk about uncomfortable. I do have to give her credit for trying, though. What she finally finished up with was this, “You’ll figure it out. God made it that way”.

OK, God made it that way, but sometimes a bit of guidance would be helpful. My wife had absolutely no clue how any of it worked, beyond the gross mechanics. Her mom had given her the same speech, “You’ll figure it out. God made it that way”. We did end up figuring it out- we have 4 children of our own. Now, I am trying to figure out how to do better for my children. My wife is still a Christian, so she still has all of the fears and taboos in place. This makes it rough when I want to help my kids out, and not just in this area. There are times when I just have to give them the straight truth, even though my wife disagrees.

I don’t think that young children should be given every detail and made to watch videos of how babies are made. I think overexposure is just as bad as underexposure. But, I do think there is a proper time and place for gradually imparting this knowledge. All kids have different maturity levels, so the parents should decide when and how much to teach their children.

Gender,Sex, Sexuality, and the Baggage We Carry

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Warning! Adult language. Do not read if you are easily offended. (stop scrolling so fast it is not that racy)

Female, Male, Hermaphrodite

Homosexual,Heterosexual, Bisexual, Asexual

Pornography, Prostitution

Adultery, Fornication

Masturbation, Anal sex, Oral Sex

Marriage,Same Sex Marriage, Divorce, Living Together, Hooking Up, Friends with Benefits

Age of Consent, Marriageable Age, Birth Control, Abortion

These are but a few terms  and issues associated with discussions about gender, sex, and sexuality.

When these things are discussed, debated, and argued about each of us bring our own baggage to the discussion. Our religious, political, cultural beliefs and experiences often color our ability to have a rational discussion about these things.  The things we have experienced in the past and the things people close to us have experienced  often affects how we view issues like gender, sex, and sexuality.

These issues are hot-button issues and, far too often, discussions about them quickly devolve into posturing, drawing lines, and name calling.

Words like misogynist, sexist, homophobic, womanizer, abuser, user, and pervert are bandied about carelessly with little or no regard to the harm these words can cause. Granted, there are times that these labels are warranted, but sometimes we are too quick to attach derogatory labels to people without trying to understand where they are coming from.

Take Prostitution. I support the legalization of prostitution. What two (or more) consenting adults do sexually to or with each other is of no concern to me. I support health and licensing requirements but beyond that I consider prostitution to be a victimless crime.

When I write about my view on prostitution, I am often told that I am supporting the objectification of women and that I am supporting actions that demean and debase women.

No, what I am supporting is the right for adults to sexually do what they want without the religious beliefs or social conventions of others getting in the way. Often objectification is in the eye of the beholder.  For example, many employers objectify their employees, treating them as a means to an end.

Take the issue of marriage. Again, I am indifferent to many of the objections people have when it comes to marriage. I am of the opinion that people should be treated equally under the law and matters beyond that are not anyone’s business.

Marriage is a contract and every party is free to determine the terms of the contract. Is it wrong for a married man to have sex outside of marriage? It depends on the terms of the contract he has with his wife. I know of several marriages where the woman is quite happy if the man has a mistress or frequents prostitutes.They have no interest in sex and their reasons for marrying were financial stability and companionship.

We need to remember that gender, sex, and sexuality are complex issues, complicated by the baggage we bring to the discussion. If we remember this, hopefully we will not be so quick to lambast those who have a different view than we do. We must also make sure we do not confuse a differing view on sex and sexuality with a person’s morality. My support of prostitution does not mean I use the services of a prostitute. It does mean, I make no moral judgment about people who do, and I most certainly do not make any moral judgment about a man or woman who decides to earn a living providing sexual services.

We all need to carefully think about these issues. Sadly, too many people let the TV do their thinking for them. Again, take  prostitution. Most people have never sought out the services of a prostitute and most people don’t know anyone who is a prostitute. Unless they carefully think about and research this issue they will likely have a distorted view.

How does TV portray prostitution? Either they show the prostitute as a drop-dead gorgeous woman making 5,000 a night or a teeth falling out meth head who will screw anyone for 20 bucks. While both of these portrayals are true, they are the exception to the rule. Contrary to how the TV portrays them, most prostitutes do not have a black pimp with a gold tooth that beats them for not turning enough tricks. Does this happen? Yes, and it is regrettable, but we must not assume this is how it is for all prostitutes. (especially in countries and localities where prostitution is legalized)

The truth is most people become prostitutes for the money. In many ways we all are prostitutes. We go to work every day…why? For the money. Like with most things in life, it is all about the money.

I look forward to your comments.

Let’s Talk About Sin

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Orthodox Christianity teaches:

  • Sin is transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4)
  • Every human being, by nature, is a sinner (Romans 3:10, Romans 5:12)
  • The punishment for sin is death (Romans 3:23)

Simply put, God has a moral standard called his law. Every person has transgressed God’s moral standard and death is the punishment for transgressing God’s moral standard.

Of course, like with anything else, Christians endlessly fight over the finer points of the sin issue. They fight over what God’s law actually is. They fight over whether humans are born sinners or become sinners.

Conservative/Evangelical/Fundamentalist Christians develop codes of conduct based on what  they believe the Bible teaches, These codes of conduct take on the force of law. In fact, in many churches codes of conduct are considered more important than explicit Biblical law. ( due to the fact that dispensationalism is so pervasive among evangelical and fundamentalist Christians)

Most Christians believe that salvation is all about deliverance from sin. All humans are sinners. All humans have transgressed the law of God. All humans, without being delivered from their sins by the merit and work of Jesus Christ, will die and go to hell. Despite all the controversy over Rob Bell’s latest book, universalism, universal salvation, etc the VAST majority of Christian sects teach that hell awaits  those who die outside of Gods’ saving grace.

When a person leaves the Christian faith and embraces atheism or agnosticism one of the biggest problems they face is what they believe about sin. Since they reject the Christian bible as truth and reject the Christian gospel of salvation they are left with uncertainty about sin. Christianity gave them a moral and ethical standard to live by. (or at least aspire to live by) Now they must develop their own standard of morality and ethics. This can be a frightening experience but it also can be quite liberating.

Let me get one elephant out the way before I continue. I do not think that humans need a God and a divine law book to have an ordered society. I readily admit that the moral and ethical standards so common in the United States are deeply influenced by Christianity and the bible. What does not follow is that this influence is necessary. It can be argued that we might be, to some degree, worse off because of the influence of Christianity and the bible. Christianity has a negative view of humanity and its constant harping on sin causes many people to go through life feeling guilty and loathing their “sinfulness.”  When a person spends their life being told they are a sinner and that only God is righteous/holy/good it is not not hard to concludes that many Christians have a difficult time enjoying the “works of the flesh.”

The Bible says:in Ephesians 5:19-21:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Pretty tough to think well of yourself when basic  human emotions are called sin and considered an affront to a thrice Holy God.

When I left the Christian faith I left a system of morals and ethics that had governed my life for 50 years. In fact, that system still influences me. A person can not be immersed in a particular moral and ethical system for 50 years and then, all of a sudden, reject all of it and walk away. There is a residual effect that lingers, sometimes for many years.

I no longer believe in sin. I try, though I still lapse into Christianese from time to time. Calling a action, a thought, an idea sin is a Christian construct and has no place in a consistent humanistic worldview. I have also learned that basic human emotions like lust, greed, envy, hate are not necessarily bad and are very much a part of the total human experience.

Societies operate under social contracts. (both explicit and implicit) We the people  (I assume in this statement a democratic society) decide what is legal or illegal. In a secular state there is no need to consult God or a divine law before making law.  These laws are going to vary from country to country. Each country decides what their laws are. Those laws apply only to citizens of that country. (though the United States often asserts that their laws apply everywhere)

In an ideal world laws should promote safety and freedom. Laws should punish those who attempt to hurt others or restrict the freedom of others. Government is not evil. Government can play a vital role in an ordered society by laying a foundation for its citizens to live safely and freely. (and as we know here in the U.S. government can be abusive, controlling and dysfunctional)

At the personal level I live by several basic rules:

  • As much as possible do no harm to others, including animals and the environment
  • As much as possible promote freedom, love, and peace
  • As much as possible treats others like I would want to be treated

As an atheist I must determine what moral and ethical standard I want to live by. I recognize that I live in a nation of laws and it is in my best interest and the interest of my family to obey the law. I longer no longer consider breaking the law a sin. (Romans 13:1-7)

It is generally in my best interest to obey the speed limit. Some times I break the law. If I get caught breaking the law I suffer the consequences . Is speeding a sin? Is breaking man’s law a sin? Many Christians say yes. The atheist says no. If an atheist gets caught speeding he pays the fine. He may think of himself as stupid for getting caught but the sin question never enters his mind.

A free society values freedom and personal property rights.  It is mine, I own it, and I should be able to do what I want with it. However this thinking collides with copyright laws. If I buy a cd am I free to do what I want with it? Copyright law says no but a standard of freedom and personal property rights says yes. (let the P2P debate begin) 

Becoming a non-theist requires a person to rethink  their moral and ethical standard of living. It is not an easy task.

Many former Christians struggle  with determining what they really believe about sexual matters. Christianity, following the teachings of the Bible, has a very narrow, often a negative view, of sexuality.  The Bible calls all kinds of sexual acts sin. In fact many sexual sins are so heinous that they deserve capital punishment.

Using the maxims I shared above I came to the conclusion that what consenting adults do in the privacy of their home in none of my business and should not be regulated in any way. This does not mean I am comfortable and agree with any and all sexual practices but my comfort is not the standard to judge things by.

I am indifferent to people living together. I am indifferent to homosexuality, adultery and fornication. I see marriage as a contract between two people. If the contracting parties agree that extra marital sex is Ok who am I to say it is wrong.

What about pornography? What about prostitution? What about abortion? What about nudity? What about certain sexual practices? What about certain types of clothing that accentuates a person’s sexuality?

As a former Christian I must now wrestle with each of these moral issues. What do I believe about these things? How do I want to live my life?  For 50 years the Bible answered all these questions for me but now I have to come up with the answers for myself.

How about you? How do you handle the sin problem? How do you determine what it moral and ethical? Does the Bible play any part in your moral and ethical decisions?

The Fundy World Tales Part 9

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This entry is part 9 of 17 in the seriesFundy World Tales

Most  of the single students at Midwestern Baptist College lived in the college dormitory. They came from independent, fundamentalist Baptist churches. In many cases the churches they came from were pastored by men who graduated from Midwestern. For all their talk about being independent, most pastors were very loyal to certain institutions and groups. Midwestern men sent their students to Midwestern and to do otherwise was considered an act of disloyalty.

Single women were housed on the top floor of the dormitory. Single men lived on the first floor and basement of the dormitory. In the middle of the first floor there was a common meeting place and kitchen. Social gatherings took place there.

We were children of the 70’s. Rock ‘n roll,free love, muskrat love, and political and social upheaval. But the key thing that  differentiated us from our counterparts in the world was that we all came from independent Baptist churches that preached against most everything that was going on in America at the time. Our pastors told us repeatedly that Satan was out to destroy us and that we had to stand against his wiles.

But, we were young. We had the typical hormonal rages of any young person. The college had (still does) strict rules against any physical contact between single members of the opposite sex. There was the six-inch rule. No single male or female was permitted within 6 inches of each other. No handholding, no putting your arm around each other, no staring dreamily into each other’s eyes. Just masturbate a lot, which was also a sin, and hope you got through it.

Couples were allowed to double date on the weekends. We were not allowed to go beyond ten miles away from the school. Evidently there was more sin to get into eleven miles away than there was ten.

Couples were not allowed to marry until after their sophomore year. If they married before their sophomore year they were required to withdraw from school and sit out at least a semester. At the end of my sophomore year over half of the young men in the dormitory married. I was one of them.

The dating rules were made to be broken. The college had set up an impossible standard for young men and women to keep. I remember several men moving into the dormitory who had recently been saved and who had prior to that had been living with a woman. Their pastor encouraged them to go to Bible college and get a good Bible education. What their pastors didn’t tell them is that there would be no more sex. More than one student couldn’t live without sex and withdrew from college.

If a couple was inclined to break the dating rules they learned very quickly who they could and could not double date with. A few couples were strict Pharisees adhering to the very letter of the law. If a couple so much as held hands with each other they would be turned in for this grievous moral infraction. Most couples broke the dating rules to some degree or another. Some couples had sexual intercourse, while most couples, like my wife and I, contented ourselves with holding hands and making out. We spent two years being afraid of being busted by the six inch rule police every time we went out on a date.

More than a few women entered Midwestern Baptist College as virgins and left deflowered. There were constant whispers about this person or that person having sex. When a dormitory student left college all of a sudden it was a sure sign that they were either being immoral or they were pregnant. (according to the dorm rumor mill)

While certainly our counterparts in the world were having more sex than us, there was enough sexual activity going on at Midwestern to make the rules a complete laughingstock.

My wife and I both were virgins when we married. I’ve often said that if we had waited much longer I doubt we would have lasted. The sexual pressure placed on us by the College rules, and our independent Baptist upbringing, was insufferable. Everything that your body said do the rules said don’t. Even the natural release of masturbation was considered a sin. It was like being on fire, with a glass of water in your hand, and not drinking it. Needless to say, most men in the dormitory whacked off. I do not know what took place on the women’s floor of the dormitory. Even today, women masturbating is seen as a much greater evil than when men do it and it certainly was more so in the 1970’s.

We were taught at Midwestern to be sexually dysfunctional, so it should come as no surprise that many of the students after they married had problems in their marriage. The only training and teaching on sexual matters we received came from the pulpit and from a well marked, dog-eared copy of the Christian sex classic, The Act of Marriage.It took my wife and I many years to break free from the sexual dysfunction we were taught. Both of us would say that the sexual relationship we have today without the God of our youth (and sex was almost treated as a threesome, husband, wife, and God) is 1000 times better.

I  want to conclude this post with a humorous story.

Midwestern Baptist College was located in Pontiac Michigan, an industrial city north of Detroit. In the 1970’s downtown Pontiac was an open cesspool. Prostitutes littered the corners and adult entertainment was readily available. Downtown Pontiac was a place were a lot of young, sexually charged dormitory men went to go,uh, ahem soulwinning.  :)

I was no different, and after much consternation, and handwringing, and fearing the damnation of my soul, I decided to go to a strip joint. Boy was it an eye-opener, in more ways than one. Up until this time I had never seen a naked woman or look at a pornographic magazine. As I was leaving the strip joint, with head hung low, I caught out of the corner of my eye a man whom I knew quite well. He was a deacon at the church I attended, at the church most all of the single Midwestern students attended. I saw him and he saw me, and we never talked about it.