Recently, a man by the name of Wayne K sent me an email that contained a dare. He wrote:
Now be cautioned because there is a cultish group in America whose website called atruechurch(dot)info – they may add your name to a list of false teachers? – probably not. I dare you write about them.
I thought, who the hell is atruechurch.info? Why should I fear them? Are they an assassination squad that whacks atheists and other nonbelievers? So, trembling with consternation and fear, I typed atruechurch.info into Firefox. What did I find? Darwin Fish. Darwin Fish, the truest Christian on earth, a fundamentalist on steroids.
I’ve known about Darwin Fish for many, many years. Fish was once a disciple of John MacArthur, trained at Master’s Seminary, and then he had a falling-out with MacArthur. You can read Fish’s bio here.
All of the religions of the world (e.g. Protestantism, Evangelicalism, Catholicism, Mormonism, JW’s, Seventh Day Adventism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism, etc.) lead to nowhere but hell. Those involved in them are “unbelieving, . . . idolaters” (Revelation 21:8). Every single last one of them reject the truth of the Bible (Romans 1:18-25), and thus, the Truth of the Bible, God (John 14:6), will burn them forever in the lake of fire for hating Him so (Deuteronomy 32:39-41; Revelation 20:11-15).
If you are involved with the kind of Christianity that views Protestantism, or Catholicism, or the Orthodox church, or the “church of Christ,” or Billy Graham, or Rick Warren, or Joel Osteen, or James Dobson, or Pat Robertson, or John MacArthur, or Paul Washer, or Norman Geisler, or Tony Evans, or Greg Laurie, or Charles Stanley, or Chuck Smith, or Fred Price, or J. Vernon McGee, or Charles Blake, or Chuck Swindoll, or Gene Scott, or Harold Camping (Family Radio), or John Piper, or T. D. Jakes, or David Jeremiah, or Charles Spurgeon, or Dave Hunt, or Marvin J. Rosenthal, or David W. Cloud, or Perry F Rockwood, or Neil Anderson, or Robert Schuller, or Jack Hayford, or Benny Hinn, or Miles McPherson, or Ray Comfort, or Jim Cobrae, or Ron Luce, or Chuck Colson, or C. S. Lewis, or Hank Hanegraaff, or Paul Chappell, or Steven Anderson, or any of the like (or any of the likes on “Christian” TV or radio) as godly, you are not saved. Why? Because, you are on the broad way (Matthew 7:13; 2 Peter 2:2; 2 Timothy 4:3). You have not the characteristic of Christ’s sheep (John 10:5). And, men such as these are wells without water (2 Peter 2:17).
Fish really believes he is part of the one true church. In the FAQ section of his website he answers the question, Are you the only true church/believers?
We suggest you take a look at our Statement of Faith to understand why we say, we do not know. There was a church in Murfreesboro, TN, but that has since dissolved. Other than that, we have not yet, as of this date, found another church that is in the truth (1 John 4:6), and we have been to many. Will we find one? Actually, the real question is, will Christ find one?
Fish has what I call the Elijah syndrome. In I Kings 18, Elijah challenges the prophets of Baal to a God-Off®. Maybe you remember the story from Sunday school:
And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the Lord; but Baal’s prophets are four hundred and fifty men. Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the Lord: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.
And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under. And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked. And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them. And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.
And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the Lord that was broken down. And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the Lord came, saying, Israel shall be thy name: And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the Lord: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time. And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.
And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word. Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the Lord God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again. Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The Lord, he is the God; the Lord, he is the God. And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.
This was one of my favorite passages to preach from. I Kings 18 is a story that illustrates God’s power when a person is willing to stand alone for God. Of course, I never preached on 1 Kings 19, you know the chapter that details Jezebel chasing Elijah into the hills threatening to kill him.
Of course, Elijah got the last laugh in 2 Kings 9 when, at the behest of Jehu, two or three eunuchs threw Jezebel out of a window, killing her as she hit the ground. Jehu then stomped on the body of Jezebel, leaving her corpse for the dogs to eat. When they came to bury her, all that was left was her skull, palms, and feet. Sounds like a hit series on HBO, yes?
People like Darwin Fish see themselves as a modern-day Elijah. They are THE remnant that God has left on earth to give testimony to the truth. Think about the Bible and its stories for a moment. Aren’t most of the big name characters in the Bible, men like Noah, Abraham, Elisha, Enoch, Joshua John the Baptist, Paul, and Jesus, loners who stood against Satan, false religion, and secular power?
In every community there is a Darwin Fish, a preacher who thinks he is God’s messenger, a prophet whose name is Frank/Harry/Waldo/Bruce. If you have read the comment section of this blog over the years, you know that there are plenty of people who think they have all the answers; that God is on their side and that their interpretation of the Bible is true. Such people are impossible to reach until they are willing to see that their foundation, the Bible, is not what they claim it is.
In A True Church’s doctrinal statement, there’s a section titled Controversial Issues. Fish and A True Church believe:
- We believe drinking alcohol in moderation is not wrong (Deuteronomy 14:26; Psalm 104:15; John 2).
- We believe those who commit suicide go to hell (John 15:1-6).
- We believe gambling is not wrong, but to gamble, because you are not content and want more, is sin (Hebrews 13:5).
- We believe Scripture does not condemn masturbation. Although it is typically done in wickedness (Matthew 15:19 “evil thoughts”), it can be done in godliness (Titus 1:15).
- We believe the Bible does not condemn slavery (1 Timothy 6:1-5), even though it is illegal in the USA (Romans 13:1).
- We believe smoking is not condemned in Scripture, but addiction is (1 Corinthians 6:12; Galatians 5:22-23).
- We believe most debt is ungodly (Romans 13:8).
- We believe the Bible does not condemn polygamy (Genesis 16:1-3), even though it is illegal in the USA (Romans 13:1), which illustrates America’s idea of what is moral or not is quite twisted (Isaiah 5:20).
- We believe there are fire breathing dragons called Leviathan (Job 41).
- We believe during the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth (Revelation 20), God will bring back from the dead evil Levites of the past to serve in His temple (Ezekiel 44:10-14).
- We believe sexual intercourse during menstruation is an evil practice (Leviticus 18:19-30).
- We believe the answer to “eternal security” is both “yes” and “no” (Romans 8:31-39; 11:19-22).
This kind of thinking is the result of taking Evangelicalism/Christian fundamentalism to its logical conclusion. Perhaps Fish should be commended for really, really, really believing all that “God” wrote in the Bible. I know more than a few Christians who think like this. They may not take things as far as Darwin Fish or Fred Phelps, but they sincerely believe they are numbered with the few faithful Christians left on earth.
Note
And, in true fundamentalist fashion, there is a website that exposes Darwin Fish and his heretical beliefs. Best I can tell, the website is owned by Spurgeonite Phil Johnson, an elder at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California and a book editor for John MacArthur. Phil was a friend of mine back in my Calvinistic days.
062616
Haha, what? I have to agree that he is actually right on some points, though. The Bible doesn’t condemn polygamy or slavery. But to believe there are fire breathing dragons takes a real feat of delusion.
“Darwin Fish, the truest Christian on earth…”
Can’t be. My grandmother was the Only True Christian. The post will be forever vacant since her death.
😉
Hi Bruce,
This guy is “a Fundamentalist on steroids”. This might be an understatement Bruce. This guy is plain nuts. Where is his kindness towards those who differ from him? He might be bible oriented but whee is the Jesus who who had table fellowship with those the Pharisees called outcasts and sinners. It seems that his version of extreme Fundamentalist dogma is all that matters. Where is he in relation to the repugnant late Fred Phelps?
Shalom,
John Arthur
This guy is right up there with Phelps.
There is going to be a select few in heaven. Not sure I’d want to be there. 🙂
That was an interesting dare. 🙂
Me thinks Darwin ought to add his name to the list of false preacher’s. The Lord won’t mind one more. 😉
Indeed. His arrogance astounds me. Out of all the religions, beliefs, and gods in existence, Fish has figured it all out. He is going to be quite lonely in heaven. 🙂
I’ll just leave this here. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Green_ink
If there is indeed a god (or gods) and an actual heaven, Darwin Fish is going to be so disappointed that he and his followers aren’t the only ones there.
You. A friend of Phil Johnson, who once ran an awful blog/website? I don’t have the stomach these days to read any calvinistic or puritanical tripe (piper, macarthur, white horse inn, etc). They hate each other as much as they hate the RC church!
I was friends with Phil in the mid-1990s when I sponsored CHARIS–an email theological discussion list.
The list was dominated by Calvinists, Reformed Baptists, Theonomic Presbyterians, along with a number of generic Evangelicals. One of Fred Phelps’ daughters frequented the list, as did a guy named Norm, the leader of the Michigan militia.
Theology mailing lists were quite popular at the time. These lists were a natural progression from bulletin boards.
As my theology became more liberal and less Calvinistic, Phil and I had a falling out. He holds to certain opinions as to why I lost my faith, opinions I consider untruths and distortions of the facts concerning my apostasy. I haven’t talked to Phil in over a decade.
I think the CHARIS list is, to some degree, still in existence. Fun times, great discussions….
Unbelievable! I remember you from the 90s! I was a member of the Charis mail list for a while, and yes, there were some great discussions. I had no idea that one of Phelps’ daughters was on the list, but I remember discussions where she was adamant about “certain things.”
I loved the old Charis list. It did have a rather eclectic membership, didn’t it?
Didn’t you once pastor a church in or near Cleveland?
Hey Philip,
Thanks for commenting. I have fond memories of the CHARIS list.
I pastored churches in northwest Ohio and southeast Ohio, never near Cleveland. In the CHARIS list days, I primarily pastored a church in West Unity, Ohio — a long time ago now. 🙂
Be well.
Bruce
I think he still runs an awful blogging site.
And good to see you back blogging Bruce, I missed your insight into the world of fundies!
You think you are wise and write about this man (group), but do not demonstrate anything that Darwin F. is wrong with something. You showed your views and you just laughed at him, but you have not shown in what he is wrong.
He presented the word of God, and you call him arrogant, and this because you do not believe anymore in God. Is this a good reason to do so?
No, I showed his views. That he, and others like him, arrogantly think that their peculiar interpretation of the Bible is right is the problem. 2,000 years of church history, hundreds of thousands of churches, and billions of believer, yet Darwin Fish and his happy little band are the one true church and everyone else is deluded and headed for hell.
But what about if he is right?
Right about what? The Bible can be used to prove virtually anything. Besides, the Christian God is a fiction, so we need not concern ourselves with what a bronze age religious text says. Fish is certainly free to believe and promote his delusions. He is even free to gather up followers and convince them that they (collectively) are the one true church. However, for those of us who have read more than one book, I hope you’ll forgive us for rolling on the floor laughing.
You said: “The Bible can be used to prove virtually anything.” And: “the Christian God is a fiction…”
How do you know you are right about that?
First, I was a Christian for 50 years.
Second, I attended an Evangelical Bible college.
Third, I pastored churches in three states for 25 years.
Fourth, I preached thousands of sermons and spent tens of thousands of hours reading and studying the Bible.
Fifth, I have been blogging now for over eight years. This has brought me into contact with all shapes, sizes, and forms of Christians.
Sixth, the history of Christianity tells us that, from its inception, the Christian church has been divided, with each party having a unique interpretation of a book that says there is one Lord, one faith, one Baptism ; a book that also says that Christ’s followers will be known by their unity and love for one another; a book that says Christians are to love their neighbors as much as they love God.
Seventh, my wife and I, along with our three youngest children, spent several years seeking out churches that took seriously the teachings of Christ. All told, we visited 125+ churches. Each church had its own beliefs and practices and each church believed they were right.
My conclusions about American Christianity and its use of the Bible are based on my broad experiences and observations. I have adequately studied matters and have come to the reasonable conclusion that the Bible can be made to say anything, especially if it is in the hands of skilled preachers.
As far as the Christian God being a fiction, I have weighed the evidence Christians make for their God and I have found it wanting. The central claims of Christianity are false. Once I concluded that the Bible was not what Christians claim it is, my loss of faith came quickly. That said, if you think you have some sort of evidence I have not yet considered, I’m all ears.
Once again thank you for answers, and as well for the last sentence.
Almost all of these examples that you gave to prove “the Christian God is a fiction…” and “The Bible can be used to prove virtually anything” I’ve experienced them, but I certainly believe differently than you.
So what you say does not entitle you to say those things: “the Christian God is a fiction…” and “The Bible can be used to prove virtually anything”.
PS I dare you to read more carefully the writings from their sit “a true church”.
I should mention that at the point 6th, you come to a conclusion about Christianity from the religions of this world, which is completely different from the one (Christianity) presented in the Bible.
And on point 7, I can say that we still looking for a local church, but we met our 4 children to pray.
What evidence do you have for the claim that my Christianity was false (of the world) and your Christianity (of the Bible) is true?
Please understand that this discussion is just a bit of intellectual fun and games for me. As you know, I’m an atheist, so my greater purpose is to show you that the arrogant, certain ground you stand upon is not as solid as you think it is. I will gladly discuss church history, world history, and theology with you, if you wish, but don’t mistake our discussion for me believing these things (in the Bible) to be true.
I also want to add that before we discuss which Christianity — if any — is true Christianity, perhaps we need to first establish if you are worshipping the right God. And from there, shouldn’t we look at what you believe about Jesus and whether those beliefs are rational, factual, and true. Before we hook up the cart, let’s talk about the horse.
The Darwin Fish’s of this world are many. If you think his church is the “true” church, I’d think you would pack up your family, move to the US, and join up with Fish. Are you not in violation of Hebrews 10:25 if you fail to join a true church and assemble with them regularly?
Look, I wish you well. I encourage you to read several of Bart Ehrman’s books on the history and nature of the NT text. After you have read them, please get back with me and we’ll talk.
You also said: “Fish is certainly free to believe and promote his delusions. He is even free to gather up followers and convince them that they (collectively) are the one true church.”
Q. Could you explain why he is wrong in that?
He’s not. I am a big proponent of the freedom of and from religion. That doesn’t mean, however, that I don’t have an educated opinion about Fish and his beliefs.
I think all religions are right. Each of them can prove that they are the one true faith.
First, thank you for answers.
In the last comment you said: He’s not. I am a big proponent of the freedom of and from religion. That doesn’t mean, however, that I don’t have an educated opinion about Fish and his beliefs.
But you did not say anything in what he is wrong, even you have “an educated opinion about Fish and his beliefs”. Where is his “delusions” that you are talking before?
My post was not meant to be a long form analysis of Fish’s beliefs or worldview. My focus is on the notion that he is right and everyone else is wrong; that his church is the true church. I also have some interest in his pissing war with John MacArthur and his disciples.
It is for these reasons and others that I said the Bible can be used to prove almost anything. Take any of the major Christian doctrines. In every instance Christians disagree with one another. Isn’t it reasonable for us to think that IF the Christian God is real and the Bible is his inspired, inerrant, infallible Words, that those who profess to worship this God and follow Jesus would have similar beliefs. Why is God unable to keep his message/truth/words/doctrines/teachings from being grossly misunderstood?
How do we know anything claimed by anyone, anywhere isn’t delusional?
I see that as an easy one. If there’s a compelling reason to believe something then I’ll check it out and, if it appears reasonable I’ll believe it, even argue for it if appropriate. One example is evolution.
If, however, something is simply an assertion, especially one based on what I see as flawed evidence, that is totally lacking in evidence, then I rapidly reject it and move on. Darwin Fish falls into this category. He’s made no attempt seriously to engage any but the very gullible.
You ask:
“Why is God unable to keep his message/truth/words/doctrines/teachings from being grossly misunderstood?”
R. The truth said:
For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1:21)
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
And know that God preserve his word from this generation.
King James Bible
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. (Psalm 12:6-7)
This is your last comment. I assume, by now, you have read the commenting rules. Let me know when you are ready to have a real discussion about Christianity and the Bible. Hint: Quoting Bible verses is not the equivalent of discussion.
This cartoon seems particularly relevant to this conversation: https://grayman1225.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/cartoon.jpg
You really do not have understood that Darwin did not say anywhere that “he is right and everyone else is wrong;”, none of you could prove this.
Even if he said: his church is “a true church”, but he never said as you interpret: “his church is the true church”, because he never said that they are the only true church. This thing, all of you give an wrong interpretation.
Okay, his church is A true church instead of THE true church. Now let’s dispense with the semantics, shall we. How many true churches are there in the world? How many true churches does Fish mention on his website. Checkmate, game over.
Check carefully in his FAQ, from where you give some examples. Even at the beginning, right at point number one.
“In regards to other Christians, we believe God has always had His remnant (Romans 11), and there is at least one Rechabite (Jeremiah 35:18-19) and a few true Jews on the planet (Romans 2:28-29; 11:2-5, 25). But, we have yet to meet any other disciples of Christ who we are convinced are among those who continue in the faith (Romans 2:7; 1 John 2:3-5). We long to meet other saints, but the days we live in are dark (Revelations 12:9), and most are deceived (2 Timothy 3:1-5; 4:3; 2 Peter 2:2). To our recollection, we have only met one believer that was already in the truth before they met us, and in this case, they had just recently repented…”
You can use here your own words: Checkmate, game over…!
All you have done here is prove the point we have been making; that Fish thinks his church is a true church, one of a few true churches. Out of the seven billion people on the face of the earth, just he and his little flock, and a few other churches scattered here and there, have figured out the truth.
Vasile your objections have been answered. I asked you several questions which you ignored. I challenged several of your assertions which you ignored. I suggested several topics of discussion, yet you said nothing. So, if you are not going to engage me on these things, then it is time to move on.
Two things:
1. “Darwin did not say anywhere that ‘he is right and everyone else is wrong’.” Okay, sure, if you want to nitpick the semantics, you’re absolutely right: we can’t prove that he ever said that. However — and I realize this may be a new concept for you, so try to follow along — there’s a thing that people do in conversation that’s called “paraphrasing”. What it means is that you substitute a short summary of what someone said, instead of repeating every word that they actually said, verbatim.
What Darwin said (right here, in the church’s FAQ, in the very first question) is this:
Q. Are you the only true church/believers?
A. We suggest you take a look at our Statement of Faith to understand why we say, we do not know. There was a church in Murfreesboro, TN, but that has since dissolved. Other than that, we have not yet, as of this date, found another church that is in the truth (1 John 4:6), and we have been to many…
From this answer, we can safely conclude that Darwin Fish believes that his organization is very definitely a “true church”, and has the authority and the knowledge to judge the worthiness of other churches. We can also safely conclude that Darwin Fish & Co have found every other church (out of “many” that they’ve visited) to be wanting/lacking/untrue. Now, it’s true that the FAQ does leave some wiggle room: “We’re not technically saying that we’re the only true church, we’re just saying that we don’t know of any true churches beside ours.” Uh huh. Look, if you’ve been searching that hard for other true churches and can’t find any, then for all practical purposes you think you’re the only true church. Yes, “Darwin Fish believes that his church is the only true church” is a slightly imprecise paraphrase of his actual position, but it works because just about anyone who hears his actual position can reasonably conclude that the only way another church could be a “true church” in Darwin’s eyes is if that other church were indistinguishable from Darwin’s.
2. What’s your motive, here? Why are you so interested in defending this guy and his church? I mean, I’m all in favor of defending the truth, but you seem to have some personal stake in not wanting people to point out that Darwin Fish appears to be a certifiable, if largely harmless, whackadoodle. Are you part of his congregation? A former member? Old college roommate of his? What?
To Michael Mock, for his Two things.
1. Among other things you say: “…anyone who hears his actual position can reasonably conclude that the only way another church could be a “true church” in Darwin’s eyes is if that other church were indistinguishable from Darwin’s.”
R. This is not true, but he said several times that the true path is the “word of God”, nothing more and nothing less.
2. My motive here… your charges without support, You have come with your own opinions, and have not said that they are your points of view but you said that he is not right and therefore you laughed (mocked) at him.
None of those you ask (if I am part of his congregation, or a former member, or old college roommate of his), except I read his writings and I found that they are justified by the Bible, and I saw he is right with the word of God.
PS My family and I live by God’s grace in Quebec, the french province of Canada.
Vasile… (May I call you that?)
Vasile, every church in the world thinks that it’s following the word of God. And they all do it differently. So Darwin’s claim that that’s his standard tells me nothing; his criteria for a “true church” have to be a lot more specific than that, or any church would qualify. The fact that Mr. Fish can’t find one single other “true” church tells me that his criteria are a lot more specific than just “following the word of God”, and strongly suggests that any church that Mr. Fish would consider a “true” church would be all but indistinguishable from his own in terms of beliefs and practices.
This isn’t a “there is only one narrow way, and we do our best to find it and stay on it, and hope God will forgive our lapses” kind of attitude. This is more like “there is only one narrow way, and we follow it, and nobody else we’ve seen measures up to our understanding of it”. He puts in qualifiers to make his position sound less arrogant, saying that they don’t know that they’re the only true church, and that they know that they’re sinners and don’t always get everything right, but that doesn’t take away the fundamental hubris of his view.
In response to point 2…
You’re here defending Darwin Fish because you think he’s right with the word of God and we’re not being fair to him? Oh, sweet summer child…
I’m not sure what you mean by “have not said that they are your points of view”, but I haven’t laughed at Mr. Fish. I’ve merely pointed out that his preaching and his church are characterized by the arrogant and almost certainly misplaced conviction that they have the correct exegesis and follow the true path, and are therefore qualified to judge the faiths and the paths of their fellow Christians. Mr. Fish and his denomination apparently want to render such judgements without being seen as full of pride, but since the basis for their judgements is rooted in the certainty of their own correctness, I can’t see anything to call it except pride.
You look at this, and you see God’s remnant of true Christians who have remained loyal while all the others have fallen away. I look at it, and all I see is another small Christian congregation whose views are outside the mainstream, and whose vanity leads them to believe that they’re right and everyone else is wrong. Plenty of small churches make such claims, and there’s nothing in Darwin Fish’s doctrinal statements to make me think I should take this one any more seriously than any of the rest.
To Vasile Sanda
I am right with you. Darwin is 100% right. Is there an email address I can contact you at?
Yes D, this is my e-mail address: valimrds@hotmail.com
Vasile Sanda said:
“For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1:21)
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)”
So, basically, you’re saying that God isn’t unable to communicate clearly, He just chooses not to?
Hi Vasile,
Quoting the bible is useless, if God does not exist and , even if he does exist, it is useless unless you can show that the bible is a true revelation of God, and not the Koran or any other purported revelation.
You need to establish the existence of God with evidence that is convincing, not quote a supposed holy book that is full of contradictions and , whose literal interpretation, contradicts the findings of modern science. Note also that the bible is a mixture where ‘god’ supports immorality, barbarism as well as some things that are ethically moral. Do you support slavery, genocide, the placing of women in an inferior position etc. as god is said to have commanded, or do you treat others with dignity and respect, even loving your enemies, as god is said to have commanded you?
Why are you supporting Darwin Fish? Are you one of his followers?
Shalom,
John Arthur
To Vasile Sanda, D, Michael Mock, and Bruce Gerencser,
As crazy as it is I was searching for something else and saw this 2016 post regarding Darwin Fish and “A True Church.”
I have intimate knowledge of the group. I know people who were part of the fellowship. And let me just give the quick summary that the fellowship ultimately became an absolute train wreck. Of course, you’d never know that by just reading through the website.
Vasile, I have no idea if you and D ended up getting involved with Fish but I hope you didn’t. I had dear friends who became a part of their group and it ultimately devastated their family. My friends ended up in divorce. There were splits, one guy ended up in prison, and there were other crazy things that happened.
What typically will happen in the group is that Darwin Fish will ultimately take down any challenger who attempts to challenge him. He will absolutely find a biblical way to diminish anybody who would dare question his authority.
A friend of mine dared to challenge Fish on the fact that he was not working even after painting himself into the biblical corner of having to step down as the formal pastor of the group. He didn’t then go get a job which was in violation of the very scriptures he battered the rest of society with. Well – he didn’t like that challenge and so ultimately a friend of mine was counted as “covetous” and excommunicated from the group.
So if anybody thinks they’ve found “A True Church” in the church fellowship lead by Fish they will ultimately be tragically mistaken.
Regarding you having left the faith Bruce, firstly, let me say I appreciate your non-combative tone in the posts of yours that I’ve read here.
Who knows if you will ever return to the faith that you once claim to have embraced but I know there are very adequate answers to all of your objections and to the things that helped you to devolve out of Christianity. For instance, you mention Ehrman. Well, I’ve done a lot of studying on Ehrman’s work and claims and I’ve found them to be bereft of any overpowering defeaters that would cause me to abandon my faith in the idea that Jesus is Lord.
I’ve been fortunate to study a lot from the world of Christian apologetics and it’s been a wondering icing on the cake of an already strong and deep faith.
So I’d encourage you to venture into the waters of people like Dr. Alvin Plantinga, Dr. John Lennox, Dr. J.P. Moreland, and Dr. William Lane Craig to satisfy some of the intellectual misgivings that clearly haunted you within Christendom.
Here is the website of Dr. Craig if anybody has any interest. His work is immense. http://www.reasonablefaith.org.
Blessings to each of you.
You assume so much:
“I’d encourage you to venture into the waters of people like Dr. Alvin Plantinga, Dr. John Lennox, Dr. J.P. Moreland, and Dr. William Lane Craig to satisfy some of the intellectual misgivings that clearly haunted you within Christendom.”
Why would you assume I haven’t read or heard these apologists? I have. Bam! There goes that straw man. I find Ehrman’s books persuasive, along with countless other books I have read on the nature and history of the Bible. It is intellectually and rationally impossible to read his books and still believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of the Protestant Christian Bible. Anyone who says otherwise is ignoring or explaining away a mountain of evidence that suggests that the Bible is NOT what Evangelicals claim it is. The only possible explanation is cognitive dissonance.
I am not interested in debating this issue with you. To quote the APostle Paul, “I know in whom I have believed.”
Thanks for commenting.
Bruce
I was a member of Darwin’s church as a child. Reading this was kinda insane. He’s teachings are crazy and then the way he teaches the parents to discipline is abuse. Such as you don’t spank a child on the butt noooo spank on the back of their thighs it’ll last longer. I was beat with a carriage whip and it was approved by the church. I was locked outside at 8 years old for sneaking cookies, all night and refused to even be allowed to use the bathroom. That’s just a piece of what he stood by.
He told my mother that the man who was molesting his children it wasn’t his fault because his wife wasn’t putting out so it was the mother’s fault. Allowed the predator to be around all us little kids. He also told her if you sin in your dreams you mind as well have sinned in real life.
How close to FLDS he was honestly. Growing up we didn’t talk to outsiders. When my mom left the group ( I was adopted but it was open and my mom was involved for 8 years of my life) but when she left my adopted family cut all ties with her. She wasn’t allowed to know where I was or anything about me. Anything she sent for me was taken and thrown away or hidden from me. When you leave like the Mormons, you are shunned you are evil. Growing up knowing who you are supposed to marry as a child.
We made our own soaps, bread, jams, skirts, head coverings ect. A woman was to have her head covered and not hold a place over a man in a place of leadership. He had us kids out there in front of other churches yelling God hates you and God kills.
Darwin at the harvest crusade said all those people who got saved that night actually hadn’t and ambushed them on their way out to tell them how they weren’t saved. This man is no prophet. God is Love. God is justice. God is good. At one point he taught these things.
Then he changed. What made my adopted parents leave was he told the church you were not saved unless you did it under him and that you needed re-baptized under him and his words of God to be saved. There was so much that he did that ruined my family. They may have left but carried his ideology with them. To this day my adopted family follow so many of his teachings have shunned me completely.
Honestly, I could go on and on. But thank you for posting this. Interesting the day you shared this is a day my daughter gained her wings. I found your article interesting.