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For the Thousandth Time: Bruce, What if You Are Wrong?

i have a question

Recently, a commenter asked me three questions (slightly edited for grammar):

  • What if you die and find out you were wrong?
  • What if you find that Jesus (the true Jesus of course, not the religious/perverted Jesus) is the true God and you simply refused to accept his offer of eternal life?
  • What will you do?

For the seemingly thousandth time, let me answer these questions.

What if you die and find out you were wrong?

Well, this is most certainly a possibility. I am not infallible, nor do possess all the knowledge that can be known. As I continue to read, study, and understand, I add to my cumulative knowledge. Unfortunately, advanced age and cognitive loss fights against me increasing my knowledge. I do what I can to better my understanding of all that it means to be human. The questioner, of course, is only concerned about me being wrong about her version of Christianity.

As an atheist, I believe life ends the moment my heart stops beating and my brain ceases to function. That’s it, end of story. As such, there is no right-beliefs test after death, no did I believe in the true Jesus, not the religious, perverted Jesus? All I can do while I am among the living is attempt to intellectually, rationally, and honestly understand the world in which I live. For example, I know that most people are to some degree or another religious. Having spent fifty years in the Christian church, twenty-five years in the pastorate, and eight years studying why people are religious, I have come to several reasoned conclusions.

First, all religious belief can be explained from a sociological perspective. Find out where a person was born, who their parents and grandparents are, and what culture they are a part of, and you can determine, for the most part, which religious cult they embrace as the one true faith.

Second, the central tenets of Christianity are irrational. As Michael Mock often says, Christianity doesn’t make sense. Having spent thousands of hours reading and studying the Bible, theology, and church history, I can confidently say that Christianity (in all its forms) is false. Simply put, Jesus died, end of story. Without a miraculous birth, atoning death, and resurrection of Jesus, the God-man from the dead, Christianity is little more than a social club. I see no evidence for Christianity being the one true faith.

I can then confidently say that Christianity is false. Thus, I have no fears or concerns about being wrong about Christianity. The same goes for all the other extant religions humans have concocted throughout the annals of history. Could I be wrong? Sure. I try to live my life according to probabilities. It is probable that I will die within the next twenty years. I have carefully examined the available evidence and concluded that sooner, and not later, death is coming my way. I can confidently say that I will likely be dead before 2036. When it comes to  Christianity, after carefully looking at the extant evidence, I have concluded that there is a .000001 percent chance that the Christian God exists and that Christianity is the one true religion.

I suppose this commenter could say, but Bruce, are you willing to risk an eternity in hell, even if the probability is .000001? Yes, I am. The greater question is why Christians do the same. I suspect this commenter believes all religions but hers are false. How can she possibly know this? Has she studied these religions? Shouldn’t she play it safe and embrace ALL religions? Better to cover one’s bases than end up in hell because you failed to choose the one true religion, right? Christians are hypocrites, demanding of me what they are unwilling to do themselves.  Why is it that Christians continue to use Pascal’s Wager to evangelize me, when they are not willing, for safety’s sake, to embrace Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Hinduism, or any of the other countless human religions?

What if you find that Jesus (the true Jesus of course not the religious/perverted Jesus) is the true God and you simply refused to accept his offer of eternal life?

The previous answer adequately addresses this question.  I am certainly willing to believe IF Christians can convincingly show me that their religious claims are true. Quoting the Bible, giving subjective personal testimonies, or making appeals to nature are not proof. Each one of these evidences can be satisfactorily overturned and rejected. Ultimately, Christianity rests on a foundation of faith, not evidence (Hebrews 11). Christians believe because they want or need to do so. By faith, they believe. And that’s fine — for them. However, I don’t have the requisite faith necessary to believe. I am unwilling to surrender my life to a fictitious God who wrote a supposedly divine book that is actually an offense to modern thinking. Filled with discrepancies, mistakes, and errors, the Bible teaches that there are multiple Gods and ways of salvation. Thousands of religious sects appeal to the Bible as THE source of their beliefs. How is possible that each sect’s beliefs differ from that of others? The Bible says that there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism — one Christianity — yet there are, if truth be told, millions of Christianities, with each believer shaping a God and Jesus in his or her own image.

If the commenter’s God is the one true God and the Bible is said God’s divine message to humanity, why did he write such a confusing, contradictory message? I’ve spent eight years poking holes in the Evangelical Christian narrative, coming to the conclusion that all the Christian sects are right. The Campbellites and Baptists are right. The Calvinists and the Arminians are right. The Catholics and the Lutherans are right. Every sect appeals to the Bible as the foundation of their faith. All of them can PROVE they are right, so I just agree with them. The Bible can be used as proof for almost any and every belief. Again, if God wanted his soul-saving message to be clear, he should have written it in such a way that no one could possibly doubt his words. That the Bible is a hodge-podge of nonsense is convincing evidence for Christianity’s sacred text being a human, not divine text.

What will you do?

Just for fun, let’s assume that I am dead wrong about this commenter’s God, and that when I awake in eternity I find myself standing before the Big Kahuna. What would I say?

  • Shit, I got that one wrong.
  • Hey God, why did you write such a contradictory and confusing book? Bad day? Too much to drink?
  • Hey God, did you see all the good works I did? Surely, my good works outweigh my bad works. After all, I was a Jesus Club® member for 50 years. The way I see it, Lord, is that I spent five-sevenths of my life doing good and believing all the right things. And even now, as an atheist, I do a lot of good works. My good works should at least be enough to get me a log cabin on the outskirts of Heaven. Surely Lord, you value good works far more than right beliefs.

I have no worries about what I will do because worrying about fictional things is a waste of time. This would be like me worrying that Daenerys Targaryen (Game of Thrones) might send her dragons to turn me into a roasted wiener. Not going to happen. Life is short. I choose to worry about things that matter, things rooted in reality. I have no interest in wasting my time wondering about whether I am saved or lost or whether my beliefs will land me a room at Trump’s Heavenly Hotel®.

Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.

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49 Comments

  1. Avatar
    Trenton

    But bruce,
    its a relationship not a religion???, Of course it would be nice if god ever returned my calls. Im still waiting for world peace, the end of poverty, no hungry children, a coherent religious text, maybe not having his representatives sexually abuse and rape children etc. its not much for a supposedly all powerful deity to handle right.

  2. Avatar
    Geoff

    It doesn’t matter if you are wrong, in the sense that the Christian philosophy is so illogically flawed to begin with. It is a morally vacuous position to believe that you will be judged as the way you believe, as against how you behave. An atheist who dies with a lifetime of good deeds behind him is morally superior to a god who judges him to be inferior to a person who professes belief but practices misery. Hence no such god exists.

    I don’t think your odds are as great as you state.

  3. Avatar
    Monty

    “There will always be sickness, poverty, pain, death and hunger in the world as long as there is still sin in the world”.
    Yes, this was actually said to me. Shit, we GOTTA sin….don’t wanna put Jesus out of work!

  4. Avatar
    Wayne

    You claimed, “Second, the central tenets of Christianity are irrational.”

    This is a very big claim. Firstly, can you explain to us readers what makes someone rational or irrational for holding a belief? Then I’d appreciate the explanation of what makes the central tenets of Christianity irrational. I don’t think you’re going to be able to support this claim but I’m very glad to consider your defense.

    You claimed, “As Michael Mock often says, Christianity doesn’t make sense.”

    Why?

    You claimed, “Having spent thousands of hours reading and studying the Bible, theology, and church history, I can confidently say that Christianity (in all its forms) is false.”

    How does spending thousands of hours reading and studying the Bible, theology, and church history logically conclude, therefore, I can conclude that Christianity is false? Because there are also hundreds of thousands of Christian theists who have spent thousands of hours reading and studying the Bible, theology, and church history and concluded the complete opposite of your conclusions.

    You claimed, “Simply put, Jesus died, end of story.”

    And what? What argument and evidence do you have to refute the claims of the historical documents that were compiled into the Bible?

    You claimed, “Without a miraculous birth, atoning death, and resurrection of Jesus, the God-man from the dead, Christianity is little more than a social club. I see no evidence for Christianity being the one true faith.”

    The fact that you claim you see no evidence for Christianity being the one truth faith does not logically conclude, therefore, Christianity is not the one true faith. It merely means you aren’t convinced of any of the evidence. It’ll be better if you can post your actual arguments as to why you reject the claims of Christianity rather than offering up these opinions that have no grounding offered for their conclusions.

    Lastly, you wrote, “Hey God, did you see all the good works I did? Surely, my good works outweigh my bad works.”

    I’m not sure if you’re simply mocking or if you really think that good works merit getting to heaven. This is utterly contrary to the Gospel. You were a pastor for how many years? Surely, you understood that Jesus did not preach that works gets one into heaven.

    If you prefer people do not question your claims then let me know and I’ll respectfully unsubscribe from your page. Best to you.

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      These are conclusions I’ve come to as a result of my examination of the central claims of Christianity. You might want to check out some of the posts here:

      https://brucegerencser.net/why/

      Or this post:

      https://brucegerencser.net/2021/05/the-michael-mock-rule-it-just-doesnt-make-sense/

      You will find my reasoning for rejecting Christianity scattered throughout the 4,000+ posts on this site. I won’t rehash them here.

      I’ve seen no evidence for the supernatural claims made by Christians. Virgins don’t have babies, dead people don’t resurrect from the dead, people don’t walk through walls, dematerialize, walk on water, turn water into wine, heal blindness with spit/dirt, or any of the other miraculous claims found in the Bible. Such irrational claims require faith, a faith I do not have.

      There are multiple plans of salvation found in the Bible. Surely you know this, right? So, pick your salvation. I’m going with good works. 😂 That’s my best chance to make it to God’s Trump Hotel. 😂

      You can question anything you wish. I may or may not answer. Right now, I’m at the Hancock Hotel after a night of eating, bar hopping, and live music. I’m not inclined to spend much time talking about myths.

      And let me be clear, even if the Bible God is real, I wouldn’t worship him. I agree with Richard Dawkins:

      “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

      Based on this, the only God I worship is my wife,

      Bruce

      • Avatar
        Wayne

        “Virgins don’t have babies, dead people don’t resurrect from the dead, people don’t walk through walls, dematerialize, walk on water, turn water into wine, heal blindness with spit/dirt, or any of the other miraculous claims found in the Bible.
        Such irrational claims require faith, a faith I do not have.”

        That’s right these things don’t happen naturally. If they did then what would be the point of God using these means to express that He is Super-natural? Contemporary science shows that the universe had an absolute beginning a finite time ago. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that since all space, time, and matter came into being at the beginning the Cause had to be spaceless, timeless, and immaterial. Again, Super-natural. Outside of the natural world. This Entity also had to be extremely powerful to create ex-nihilo. And I see no logical contradiction nor irrationality associated with the idea that such an extremely powerful Super-natural Being would have power enough to propel a virgin to have a baby, raise dead people to life, walk through walls, walk on water, turn water into wine, and heal the blind and deaf. The Giver of life would certainly have power over life. The very definition of God entails that He is able to do all these things. Because they are all logically possible within the purview of His power. But if you think you can show why the Creator of the universe would not have the power to propel a virgin to have a baby I’m glad to hear your argument.

        “There are multiple plans of salvation found in the Bible. Surely you know this, right? So, pick your salvation. I’m going with good works. 😂 That’s my best chance to make it to God’s Trump Hotel. 😂”

        Actually, there are not multiple plans of salvation. The Bible is clear that salvation is through faith in the righteous and finished work of Christ and not through any sinful man’s good deeds. Even if you do nothing but good from this day forward your sin remains. How shall you reconcile it? For no good deed can cancel evil. No man will ever inherent salvation apart from the Blood of Christ. You should know better than to say there are multiple plans of salvation. Perhaps you have never come to truly understand the Gospel. Didn’t Jesus tell His accusers, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

        “You can question anything you wish. I may or may not answer. Right now, I’m at the Hancock Hotel after a night of eating, bar hopping, and live music. I’m not inclined to spend much time talking about myths.”

        That’s an odd claim to make since you just let me know you’ve made over 4,000+ posts on this site all related to Christianity and your disbelief. That’s a whole lot of discussion about a myth. Do you have any duplicate sites with as many posts debunking the idea that Santa Claus exists? Strange so much effort is made toward debunking something that you would claim to be equal to the fat man in the red suit.

        “And let me be clear, even if the Bible God is real, I wouldn’t worship him. I agree with Richard Dawkins:

        ‘The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.'”

        I think you just revealed the true answer to the original commenter who asked you the three questions. It doesn’t seem your problem is evidence and proof in the least. It seems you have an emotional objection to God. You have been duped and have not ever understood that the very nature of God prevents Him from doing evil. To your own potential demise. How could you let someone drag you away from love so easily? What a shallow faith!

        Your readers should not be impressed by citations from Dawkins. He needs to stick to evolutionary biology and stay out of the realm of philosophical thought whereas he’s shown himself to be embarrassingly inept at being a good thinker. Much like the illogical conclusions I’ve seen expressed in the claims you made above. I can’t search 4000 posts to find your answers so if you’d like to support your claims here for the readers that would be the more credible thing to do. No hurry to reply though. If my assumption is correct that your wife is with you then I hope you two are enjoying your time. I’m sure she’s a wonderful lady.

        • Avatar
          Bruce Gerencser

          Fuck off, Wayne. I have no interest in responding to people who judge my motives or refuse to accept my story at face value.

          You are the one making a positive claim that the Christian God of the Bible created everything. What evidence do you have for that claim apart from the Bible? That’s a rhetorical question, by the way. I have zero interest in philosophical arguments about the existence of God. Nothing more than mental masturbation.

          I’m not a scientist, but we know, based on Big Bang cosmology, how the universe came into existence. Who/what was before the Big Bang, no one knows — including you. I am content to say, “I don’t know.” And quite frankly, such questions don’t interest me. Life is too short to waste it on such questions — at least as far as I’m concerned.

          I don’t care what you think of Richard Dawkins — I’m not a fan — or me for that matter. You see “life is too short.” This blog is mainly about one man telling his story; one sharing his experiences as a pastor; one man critiquing Evangelical Christianity. There’s plenty of data on this site if you’re willing to search and read. I gave you a link to a page that has links to numerous posts? Did you bother to look at them, or are you just looking for a fight/argument?

          You will find that I’ve dealt with thousands of Waynes over the past fourteen years. I’m not inclined to give much, if any, time to dealing with another one. If that disappoints you, I am sorry.

          And with that, I’m off to a medicated sleep, and if I don’t die in my sleep, on to Toledo tomorrow to spend the day with my bride of forty-three years.

          You might find some my more science/philosophy oriented readers who might be willing to interact with you. I’m just not that interested in such discussions. I hope you’ll understand. There’s nothing you could possibly say that would change my mind about Christianity/Jesus/Bible. I’ve heard every argument—literally.

          Be well.

          Bruce Gerencser

          • Avatar
            Wayne

            “I have no interest in responding to people who judge my motives or refuse to accept my story at face value.”

            I’m sure both I and many readers are fine with accepting your motives and story at face value. But in doing so it reveals that you haven’t been a good thinker and that’s what I’m addressing with my comments. Because in general atheists are very bad thinkers. So far you haven’t shown any good arguments in support of the proposition that God does not exist. Simply dismissing the claims of others does not conclude, therefore, God does not exist and your readers need to know that if they desire to be better thinkers than most atheists.

            “You are the one making a positive claim that the Christian God of the Bible created everything. What evidence do you have for that claim apart from the Bible? That’s a rhetorical question, by the way. I have zero interest in philosophical arguments about the existence of God. Nothing more than mental masturbation.”

            All while you attempt to use philosophical arguments in 4000+ posts. Your words betray you sir. Your diatribes are an engagement in argumentation which is philosophical in nature. I have plenty of evidence to offer the readers. Plenty. The problem you’re experiencing right now is this:

            The first one to plead his cause seems right, Until his neighbor comes and examines him. Proverbs 18:17

            “I’m not a scientist, but we know, based on Big Bang cosmology, how the universe came into existence. Who/what was before the Big Bang, no one knows — including you. I am content to say, “I don’t know.” And quite frankly, such questions don’t interest me. Life is too short to waste it on such questions — at least as far as I’m concerned.”

            Your readers should see by these statements the ineptness of your position. You claimed that it is irrational to believe the most powerful entity possible could cause a virgin birth and perform other supernatural events. You’ve yet to support that claim. Why? Because you can’t support it. It’s not irrational in any way to believe the most powerful entity possible – the very One who created all that we see – could do what is miraculous to His creation. The one who created the virgin has the power to cause her to be with child. The One who created water can surely turn it into wine and walk on it. The fact that He didn’t explain to you how He did it makes you kick and scream and throw away your entire faith. What a very shallow faith! Jesus warned you that the wicked one could come and snatch away what was sown in your heart! And you let it happen. Why? For what? For a bowl of lentil soup? Could no longer deny yourself? You saw righteousness as chains? What was it? What did you receive in exchange for your salvation? I hope it was worth it.

            “I don’t care what you think of Richard Dawkins — I’m not a fan — or me for that matter. You see “life is too short.” This blog is mainly about one man telling his story; one sharing his experiences as a pastor; one man critiquing Evangelical Christianity. There’s plenty of data on this site if you’re willing to search and read. I gave you a link to a page that has links to numerous posts? Did you bother to look at them, or are you just looking for a fight/argument?”

            Of life being short, all the more reason to search out these matters and to leave no stone unturned. I respect that you’re telling your story but in the process you’re publicly demeaning Christianity and the faith of billions of people – many of whom are the most brilliant people on the planet. If you prefer that those who hold the belief that Jesus is Lord don’t challenge you and you prefer to live in an echo chamber that’s your right. Just let me know and I’ll refrain from responding again.

            “You will find that I’ve dealt with thousands of Waynes over the past fourteen years. I’m not inclined to give much, if any, time to dealing with another one. If that disappoints you, I am sorry.”

            Your right. But if you’re going to post publicly and invite comments then I’m going to comment. If you forbid it and block me or disengage – again – your right. And I revel in it. But it will be evidence to your readers that you’re unable or unwilling to defend your position. And I find that to be intellectually lazy.

            “And with that, I’m off to a medicated sleep, and if I don’t die in my sleep, on to Toledo tomorrow to spend the day with my bride of forty-three years.”

            I hope you guys enjoy your time.

            “You might find some my more science/philosophy oriented readers who might be willing to interact with you. I’m just not that interested in such discussions. I hope you’ll understand. There’s nothing you could possibly say that would change my mind about Christianity/Jesus/Bible. I’ve heard every argument—literally.”

            I’m not writing for your benefit, necessarily. I’m not attacking you personally but, rather, attacking your arguments for the benefit of others to show the inefficacy of your position. All in the hope that they might not be dragged into the ditch of being a bad thinker and in a state of hopelessness with you and those who follow your lead.

          • Avatar
            Bruce Gerencser

            Evidently, you think it is okay to repeatedly insult me. Worse, you have made no effort to understand my story. (I have a record of what you have viewed on this site. You didn’t even bother to read the posts I suggested to you.)

            It seems you are here to preach, evangelize, and argue. Per the commenting guidelines, you’ve been banned. Make of that what you will. As far as what the thousands of people who read this blog will think, they “see” you clearly. I’m confident they will continue to respect me personally and appreciate my honest, open, thoughtful writing.

        • Avatar
          Trenton

          Wayne, Bruce does not need to disprove Santa Claus as he is Santa Claus. All the evidence you need is the picture of him at the bottom of every post as well as all the random children who ask him for presents around the holiday season. He has had to work from home recently due to covid being deadly to elves and only makes it up to the North pole to pick up the sleigh and presents. The sleigh is thoroughly sanitized after being returned and the reindeer sent to quarantine in Canada while Bruce heads back to semi retirement in Ohio. Wayne you will be on the naughty list if you keep up your behavior for sure, please expect coal in your stocking.😆😆😆😆

          • Avatar
            Bruce Gerencser

            Thanks! 🎅🏻🎅🏻 Last night, we walked into a restaurant, first thing I heard from one of the servants: nice hat Santa. 😂😂 Hard for me to go out in public without being recognized as “the man.” 😂😂

    • Avatar
      Astreja

      Wayne, anyone can make up some silly-ass story about some guy coming back from the dead. In my view of Life, the Universe and Everything, to believe such a thing in the absence of testable physical evidence is indeed irrational. And childish. Very, very childish.

      If there ever was a historical Jesus, his bones are probably in a mass Roman grave somewhere under the streets of Jerusalem.

    • Avatar
      Ben Berwick

      Grrr, I started to type up a lengthy reply and then the system hiccupped and I lost it.

      Wayne, you object to Bruce’s conclusion that Christianity is irrational. I’d argue that all organised religion is irrational. In the two thousands years since the events of the Bible, what verifiable evidence is there for the existence of God? How many times has God revealed themselves in that time? There is nothing quantifiable, nothing we can observe, to verify the existence of any form of God – not the Christian version, not the Muslim version, not the Jewish, or any other version.

      What conclusions would you have people reach, from this complete lack of evidence? Based on what we can see, there is as much chance of the Norse and Roman pantheons being true as the Christian God.

  5. Avatar
    Bro Shep

    4 things. (I know this is futile 😢 but this may very well be your last chance as death and the rapture are imminent)

    1 my name is not James Thompson

    2 you never trusted Jesus for salvation you were depending on your good works for salvation works cannot save anyone !

    3 Christ suffered and died and rose again to give you eternal salvation and the invitation is still open for you to be truly saved and changed.

    Sadly if your mind is long made up I suggest you do everything and you trust yourself over Christ with in your human ability to stay alive here as long as you can.

    Shep.

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      4 things. (I know this is futile 😢 but this may very well be your last chance as death and the rapture are imminent)

      Bruce :Yes, this is futile. You are a troll. I don’t give a rats ass what you think. A baboon’s ass, either.

      1 my name is not James Thompson

      Bruce: Yes, it is — James, Deacon John, Tom, and now George. Your language usage gives you away.

      2 you never trusted Jesus for salvation you were depending on your good works for salvation works cannot save anyone !

      Bruce: Evidently, you can’t read. Did you read any of my autobiographical work? If so, you know I was saved by grace, through faith, and not of myself (Ephesians 2:8,9).

      3 Christ suffered and died and rose again to give you eternal salvation and the invitation is still open for you to be truly saved and changed.

      Bruce: Been there, done that.Hallelujah, I am eternally, and forever, saved.

      Sadly if your mind is long made up I suggest you do everything and you trust yourself over Christ with in your human ability to stay alive here as long as you can.

      Bruce: My mind is made up that you are a fucking asshole. As someone who has serious health problems and is slowly dying, I’m ready to die. Threatening me with Hell and death will not work. I’ve been given over to a reprobate mind. 😈😈 Be well, and live your life. When you dead ☠️ you stay that way. Don’t waste your time chasing after that which does not exist.

      Bruce

    • Avatar
      clubschadenfreude

      I do love Christians who claim to know when the “rapture” is going to happen. It’s such a great way to see which are the Jesusites and the Paulians. Always great fun to see the intentional lies of Christians. 2000+ years and still failing!

      there are at least four different ways to be “saved” in your silly bible: by simple belief in JC as savior; works and belief; this god choosing you even before you are born; childbirth (for women only).

    • Avatar
      George

      “You never were a Christian, anyway.” It’s the same old tired mantra that evangelicals pull when somebody says they used to be saved.

      The Charismatic / Pentecostal televangelists have a similar tired old mantra. They tell poor, trembling sick people that the prayer of faith WILL heal them, and when they aren’t healed, they say, “Well you didn’t have enough faith to get healed.”

      PS: Imminent means it’s going to happen any second now. But the nut jobs have been yelling that the rapture was imminent since the early 60s:

      The Cuban Missle Crisis, THIS IS IT!
      Kennedy assassinated, THIS IS IT!
      The Six-Day War, THIS IS IT!
      The Soviet military buildup, THIS IS IT!
      The spread of Charismatic Pentecostalism, THIS IS IT!
      The European Common Market, THIS IS IT!
      Jimmy Carter elected, THIS IS IT!
      The Iran hostage crisis, THIS IS IT!
      Ronald Reagan elected, THIS IS IT!
      Spread of AIDS, THIS IS IT!
      Beirut barracks attack, THIS IS IT!
      Bill Clinton elected, THIS IS IT!
      Y2K, THIS IS IT!
      2008 economic meltdown, THIS IS IT!
      Barack Obama elected, THIS IS IT!
      Donald Trump elected, THIS IS IT!
      COVID, THIS IS IT!
      Joe Biden elected, THIS IS IT!
      And anytime somebody in the Middle East farts, THIS IS IT!

  6. Avatar
    GeoffT

    Wayne, I’ll not bother disseminating your mishmash of philosophy and theology, all of which is hopelessly confused and certainly not universally accepted amongst the 43000 Christian denominations (which itself begs the question as to why so many if there’s only one truth?). What I will challenge you on is the science. The theory of the Big Bang does not suggest an absolute beginning, nor creation ‘ex nihilo’, it is simply that this is the furthest back in time that our physical models of the universe can track without breaking down. Using a word like ‘prior’ to the Big Bang is probably paradoxical, but it’s all we can do because of our limited understanding, so I will say that we don’t know what existed prior to the Big Bang, but it certainly wasn’t ‘nothing’. My own view is that the universe taken more broadly than our own is eternal, certainly in the sense that the sheer concept of ‘nothing’ is incoherent. Physics can help explain the universe in ways that theology can’t even begin, and certainly not the bible, which wasn’t even written with the literal intent it has now acquired in some parts of the western world.

      • Avatar
        GeoffT

        Hey Bruce! I’m happy to leave the bible and theology to you and other knowledgeable commenters but the science stuff always sucks me in!

        • Avatar
          Wayne

          “Wayne, I’ll not bother disseminating your mishmash of philosophy and theology, all of which is hopelessly confused and certainly not universally accepted amongst the 43000 Christian denominations (which itself begs the question as to why so many if there’s only one truth?).”

          You’ll not bother? Yet you immediately bother. By making an argument. An argument that is woefully bad. How would the idea that even if there were 43,000 denominations within Christianity that it implies, therefore, God does not exist or that Christianity does not hold to one truth? It doesn’t. Does it? No. It doesn’t. Your argument is akin to someone saying that because you and your wife disagree on how you understand some things in life that, therefore, you can’t be or shouldn’t be married. How silly. Therefore, once again, you guys reveal that you are very bad thinkers. You make illogical conclusions based on faulty premises.

          “What I will challenge you on is the science. The theory of the Big Bang does not suggest an absolute beginning, nor creation ‘ex nihilo’, it is simply that this is the furthest back in time that our physical models of the universe can track without breaking down.”

          I accept the challenge. Mathematical physicist Dr. Frank Tipler – who coauthored the famed Anthropic Cosmological Principle with John D. Barrow testified, “Outside of the universe, which is created by the singularity, and the singularity itself, there is nothing. No space, no time, no matter, no nothing!”

          “Using a word like ‘prior’ to the Big Bang is probably paradoxical, but it’s all we can do because of our limited understanding, so I will say that we don’t know what existed prior to the Big Bang, but it certainly wasn’t ‘nothing’.”

          The burden is on you to show how Dr. Frank Tipler – the mathematical physicist – is in error. I hope you can find the time to do just that. Please explain what existed paradoxically prior to the beginning. I’m eager to see your defense of this position and how Dr. Tipler is wrong.

          “My own view is that the universe taken more broadly than our own is eternal, certainly in the sense that the sheer concept of ‘nothing’ is incoherent.

          What do you mean when you say, “taken more broadly than our own?” What does that mean? Regarding eternality – the burden of proof is on you to show how that’s the case if you’re going to espouse the position. Perhaps you’re right. But if so – you’ll be the first one I’ve read who can defend it. I know of not one contemporary physicist who has declared emphatically that the universe is eternal. But I have the BGV theorem that says otherwise. And to date no model of the universe has been able to overcome it. But I’m glad to read your explanation of how it’s eternal.

          “Physics can help explain the universe in ways that theology can’t even begin, and certainly not the bible, which wasn’t even written with the literal intent it has now acquired in some parts of the western world.”

          I don’t know of any theologians who declare the Bible to be a science book. With that said – it does not mean that the Bible denies science. If you or anyone else is claiming that it does I’d like to see that argument. The problem a lot of Christians have today is the idea that their own understanding of some of the texts within the Bible are the correct and only way to understand those texts. But many brilliant Christian scholars are showing otherwise today. Just as Galileo made the Roman Catholic Church look foolish in his day. So if Christians need to be wary of anything today it’s the idea that they should be very careful in their Biblical exegesis and be open to all truth and not just the truth as they understand it from the Bible. God is the God of the universe and the truth that we see in it just as He’s the God and Author of the Bible.

          • Avatar
            Bruce Gerencser

            I don’t know of any theologians who declare the Bible to be a science book.

            Bruce: You need to get out more. Millions of Evangelicals believe the first nine chapters of Genesis is actual science and history; that the universe was created in six twenty-hour days; that the earth is 6,024 years old; that Adam and Eve were the first humans; that the earth was covered with a flood 4,000 years ago . . .shall I go on?

            The problem a lot of Christians have today is the idea that their own understanding of some of the texts within the Bible are the correct and only way to understand those texts.

            Bruce: Dude you need to look in the mirror. Re-read your comments. You give off the airs that you are certain your Evangelical interpretations of the Bible are absolutely r-i-g-h-t.

          • Avatar
            Kel

            Of course the existence of 43000 different denominations does not necessarily mean that every single one of them is wrong.

            But it probably suggests that the Bible is rather unclear or that God is not interested in being known, which is contrary to the claims made by many Christian denominations.
            Efforts to wade through all these confusing and contradictory claims may cause disillusionment on one hand or what Bruce dubs as “A.W. Pink syndrome” of self exceptionalism on the other hand.

            Regarding eternality, I’m not well-versed enough in the sciences or philosophy to make an informed argument. However, Buddhist philosophers over the ages have made arguments against the necessity of a single causal effect or Aquinas-style Prime Mover for the existence of the universe. They think “everything”, as we know it, is a tangled web of causes and effects (paticcasamuppada).
            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%ABtyasamutp%C4%81da

          • Avatar
            GeoffT

            Wayne, using Frank Tipler is typical apologist tactics. You choose the one outlier who comes somewhere near to being able to support your own religious (superstitious) beliefs, yet who has some credibility via his qualifications, and then hang your hat, coat, and scarf on that hook. Doesn’t work. It’s no use looking for outliers, you need to address the consensus, and the consensus is that Tipler’s views are pseudoscience. Of course, you can point out that Einstein, and many others, were once outliers but they later became consensus views because they were able to demonstrate that was where the evidence lay.

            The consensus is that the Big Bang represents the furthest point at which the physics of our universe, both space and time, can be traced. Admittedly there are several theories proposed as to the wider implications, including multiverse, and that is why cosmologists refer to our universe as ‘local’. It’s the one in which we happen to exist but isn’t necessarily the only one that presently exists, or it may be part of an eternal series of universes. None regard the universe as having been created ex nihilo, and none regard the concept of ‘nothing’ as being a state of nature.

          • Avatar
            George

            Yeah, but even if 43,000 denominations don’t disprove that God’s existence, it makes for a pretty confusing Christian world. Can’t imagine YAHWEH intentionally allowing such a confusing situation if the penalty for getting it wrong was hell fire.

            By the way, based on how you’ve described your Christianity, you chose the wrong denomination out of the 43,000. Sorry. To the fire with you.

  7. Avatar
    Shep

    Bro Wayne,

    Sadly you are judging wasting time throwing pearls among the philistine pigs.

    Their minds are made up and they won’t listen to anything that another person tells them or shows them because they choose their sins and their way of living. An no evidence would be enough because they don’t want to know.

    Sadly eternity will be unbearable

    Bro Shep

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      You shit all over my blog and you expect people to take you seriously? Stop being a prick and then you might get a hearing. Based on your behavior, I’m a better Christian than you are, and I’m an atheist.

      What “sins”? Have I gone to anyone’s blog and been an arrogant, self-righteous asshole? Of course not. You might want to read up on the fruit of the Spirit.

      We are not lacking evidence. You think you are the first clown 🤡 that has come to this site to preach AT us? What evidence have you provided outside of bald assertions? Come on James, cough up something I (we) haven’t heard countless times before. To quote Pedro, “you can do it.” 😂😂

      Ah yes, another threat of torture in Hell. Sorry, dude, does that really work with anyone outside of children?

      Bruce

    • Avatar
      Dave

      Shep, you say sadly eternity will be unbearable. How disingenuous! You relish the thought of Bruce and other deconverted Christians like me being tortured forever. In your mind we deserve this because we fail to think like you. You can hide behind false humility and say you are unworthy of salvation but your words reveal who you are. An hour, much less than eternity, would be unbearable to spend with pompous pricks like you.

    • Avatar
      Matilda

      Well, that gave me a big laugh Shep. As the commentariat here frequently observes, x-tian trolls are like a very,very stuck record. Their claims are just the same old, same old re-hash. They have yet to come up with one iota of real evidence for the existence of god and hell. But, hey you did come up with something different….Viz:an insulting name for us ex-believers. We’re philistine pigs….great name, did you invent it just for this group? Actually though, come to think of it, I’ve had better insults from some five year olds I used to teach! Many of us here have left our former x-tian chains and stepped outside and we fervently hope you might open your mind enough to do the same, I can promise you it’s great out here in the sunshine.

    • Avatar
      Kel

      Bro Shep, I suggest that you shouldn’t prematurely regard Bro Wayne as your fellow true Christian. I think it’s likely that both of you would disagree on at least some doctrinal matters. Let’s see how long it takes before you will also condemn Bro Wayne for having heretical views.

      And you do sound like James Thompson. I could tell by the way you construct your sentences.

    • Avatar
      John Arthur

      Bro. Shep,

      So you call us “philistine pigs”. Is this hateful name calling a way you use to try and persuade people to change their minds?

      ” Their minds are made up and they won’t listen to anything another person tells them or shows them because they choose their sins and their way of living.” How do you know that I’ve made up my mind? How do you know that I won’t listen?

      You don,t know me or other commentators, so how can you make your allegations rationally? What “sins” do we choose and what way is each of us living? You simply don’t know.

      Please present us with evidence for your claims. You have presented none so far.

    • Avatar
      George

      Bruce,

      Sadly, you are wasting time throwing pearls before the evangelical philistines.

      Their minds are made up and they won’t listen to anything that another person tells them or shows them because they choose their fingers-in-ears way of living. No evidence would be enough because they don’t want to know.

      Sadly, if hell exists, these lemmings will be there because there’s no way God could stand their self-righteous stink in heaven.

      George

  8. Avatar
    MJ Lisbeth

    Somehow I don’t think Trump’s hotel is so heavenly. According to my sources (ha, ha!), Trump Tower is no longer a residence-of-choice for the super-wealthy.

    Anyway…If the Big One actually exists and I have to stand before him/her/them/it, my question would be, “Why?”

    I don’t rehearse for that moment, just as I don’t rehearse for “Phantom of the Opera,” Inaugural Address or Nobel acceptance speech.

  9. Avatar
    TO

    By “true Jesus” I take it the commenter meant white, American Jesus who wears a red MAGA cap. That’s all those people really care about.

    • Avatar
      ... Zoe ~

      Wayne continues: ” . . . for the benefit of others . . . in the hope that they might not be dragged into the ditch of being a bad thinker and in a state of hopelessness with you and those who follow your lead.”

      It’s never about Bruce here it seems anymore. Having been there, done that myself back in the day, it’s about trying to reach the lurkers, the doubters, the skeptics, the vulnerable, the broken, the slippery slop club. It’s always about trying to reach that one dear soul for Christ.

      And it’s for his (Wayne’s own benefit.)

  10. Avatar
    Yulya Sevelova

    Don’t let James the Jerk get to you, Bruce. I’m glad you went out to eat and all. You deserve a break, and Happy Valentine’s Day to you and Polly. Enjoy your day.

  11. Avatar
    Lacy

    Just another typical “Christian Bully”, bullying us sinners into the kingdom. What this Wayne character failed to mention in his tirade was verifiable evidence for the existence of a “one true god”. All I saw were the usual insults these zealots like to hurl at people who don’t think like they think.
    Way to go, Wayne. Your behavior, and that of your “bro” is appalling, to say the least. You are the perfect example of “WHY” I left religion behind, along with the discrepancies, crazy stories and inconsistencies of the “good book”.
    Showing your ass must be the golden ticket to get the VIP table in the afterlife.

  12. Avatar
    George

    Shouldn’t she play it safe and embrace ALL religions? Better to cover one’s bases than end up in hell because you failed to choose the one true religion, right?<<

    True, but while I’m not a theologian, I don’t know of any other religions that threaten eternal flames for not joining. So even though it’s a ridiculous system, you might as well hedge your bets and believe in Christianity, just in case. At least that’s the logic behind it.

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