Today, a reader by the name of Chris left the following comment on the post titled The Bible Says Our Good Works Are as Filthy Rags. My response is indented and italicized.
“Evangelicals believe that humans, Christian or not, are incapable of good works; that all goodness comes from the Christian God; that works apart from God that “seem” good are actually done for the wrong motivations and reasons.”
I don’t know what “Evangelicals” believe, but this is wrong according to the Word of God.
Prooftexting deleted.
What Chris mean is this: according to my personal interpretation of the Protestant Christian Bible, this is wrong. There’s no such thing as a “right” interpretation. Every sect, every pastor, every Christian thinks their beliefs are right. That’s why I believe everyone is right. There’s no wrong interpretation of the Bible. Every sect, pastor, and Christian defends their beliefs by appealing to the Bible. How, then, do we know who is right and who is wrong?
Christians have been arguing with each other for 2,000 years. Jesus was barely dead before Paul, Peter, and James got into arguments over what constituted salvation. Who’s right? How could we possibly know?
The Bible is a hopelessly contradictory and confusing collection of books. Countless books have been written over the centuries attempting to defend this or that theological belief. Yet, there are thousands of Christian sects, each believing they hold to the “faith once delivered to the saints.” Calvinists vs. Arminians. Charismatics vs. Oneness Pentecostals. Baptists vs. Church of Christ. Over the years, I have been told by countless Christians that I am saved, I am lost, I am saved, I am lost . . . Each Christian thinks they have it figured out. Me? I’m content to pop some popcorn, grab a comfy seat, and settle in to watch the bloody internecine wars Christians are fond of fighting. The world will know we are Christians by our love, the Bible says. How is that working out?
The point that much of Christianity get wrong is that they view “salvation” as a one off thing that happens at the declaration of faith, and run from works, calling it “works based salvation” or “legalism”. No, we are supposed to have works – we are supposed to do good. But we should do those works out of love, not because we believe the works themselves make us righteous. We are told to walk as Jesus walked – and Jesus did many works. Paul is also an example to us, and who worked harder than he?
Again, Chris says much of Christianity is “wrong.” What is the basis for his assertion? His personal interpretations of the Bible — his personal opinion. There’s no such thing as absolute truth, authoritative truth. Virtually every verse in the Bible can be interpreted, explained, twisted, or contorted to fit a peculiar theological belief.
I don’t think Chris read any of my autobiographical material. Had he done so, he would have learned that my views of salvation and works evolved over the twenty-five years I was in the ministry. I was a Christian throughout, but I had various beliefs about salvation and the part good works played in the lives of believers. I can defend every position from the Bible. That’s why the Bible is such a wonderful book. You can easily make it say anything, and regardless of your beliefs, someone, somewhere is going to shout AMEN PREACHER! Keep preaching the Word!
The Bible talks against self righteousness – thinking that you’re a good person because you’ve done some good things. Your good works don’t cross out your evil – you don’t get to murder people because you’ve made charitable donations and fed homeless people.
Well, I am an atheist, so I don’t care what the Bible is for or against. Generally, I think humans are good people. I reject the Christian concept of “sin,” a tool used to cause fear and guilt so “sinners” will seek out a remedy for their “sin” through the church. Sin is the problem, salvation through Jesus is the solution, preachers say. I reject this construct out of hand.
Humans do good and bad things. As an atheist and a humanist, my goal is to be a good person: to love and help my wife, children, grandchildren, friends, neighbors, and fellow humans. Do I fail? Sure. I can be self-centered, self-indulgent, and self-righteous. When I recognize that I have failed, I try to make things right and, if possible, make restitution.
As far as I know, I have never knowingly (on purpose) been “evil.” I can look at my past life as an Evangelical pastor and conclude that some of my beliefs were evil, that they caused material harm to my family and the people I pastored. My only defense is that I did so ignorantly, that I was a product of tribal influences and indoctrination. I have spent the past fifteen years trying to atone for my ignorance. While it would be easy for me to say: Bruce, give yourself a break, you didn’t know any better, I think it is important for me to give an honest accounting of my life — past and present. My counselor told me today that I have great self-awareness, sometimes to a fault. My counselor before this one told me on several occasions, “Bruce, you are not as bad a person as you think you are.” I know he is right, but I look at what I preached and how I treated others, all in the name of God and according to the teachings of the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God. I see myself as a victim and victimizer.
Salvation by grace, through faith, takes away our need to work for salvation – as if there’s a minimum number of good things you have to do to get to heaven, or as if you have a balance sheet that needs to be in the positive at the point of death.
Again, I could easily use the Bible to refute everything Chris says. For example, Matthew 25 clearly teaches that entrance into the eternal Kingdom of God is conditioned on good works. James makes the same claim when he says that faith without works is dead, and John says that anyone who sins is of the Devil, implying that good works are essential to salvation. In fact, I argue that without good works no one is saved; that the Mennonites and the Amish are likely closer to what the Bible teaches about salvation and good works.
I agree with Chris that the Evangelical notion of decisional regeneration — that of agreeing to a set of theological propositions and praying a one-off prayer makes one a Christian — is ludicrous and contrary to the picture of Jesus and his teachings and the early church found in the Bible.
From my perspective, all that matters is how we live, how we treat others. The goal should be well-being and reducing/eliminating harm (not only for humans, but other animals, and our planet).
“Is it any wonder so many Evangelicals are downright discouraged and depressed? Being told over and over that one is a worthless piece of shit and that one’s life is n-o-t-h-i-n-g without Jesus is sure to ruin any thoughts of self-esteem. Pastors frequently remind congregants that the Bible commands them to deny self, to take up their crosses and follow Jesus.”
Sounds like you went to a terrible church, and that the pastors were shitty people who wanted a passive flock to rule over. God loves you and gives you peace.
Romans 14 (KJV)
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
I was an Evangelical pastor for twenty-five years, so I was the “shitty” pastor, pastoring terrible churches. 🙂 Theological beliefs have consequences. What does the Bible say about humans? Is there anything in the Bible that remotely promotes self-worth? Of course not. The Bible says we are vile, evil sinners, haters of God. Salvation doesn’t turn us into good people. We have no righteousness of our own. We are righteous only because and through the person and work of Jesus. The Bible says we can’t do anything without Jesus, even breathe or move. So, according to the Bible, none of us are good people, even after we are saved.
Discouragement and depression are common among Christians. For all their talk about God loving them and God giving them peace (after all, the Holy Spirit), Christians have the same struggles as the unwashed, uncircumcised Philistines of the world. The bottom line is this: Christians are human, no different from anyone else.
Don’t throw away God because the “Christian” religion is awful. You can have a personal relationship with God by His Word. I don’t go to church, and I don’t like “Christianity” – but Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
Chris wants to claim the Christian moniker, but doesn’t go to church and doesn’t like “Christianity” — meaning Christian belief systems other than his. Christianity and the Bible are inseparably linked. The church gave us the Bible. I can’t envision someone being a Christian in a meaningful sense without the church. The Bible says that Christians should not forsake assembling together. It is through the church that believers have community and instruction in the teachings of the Bible. I was fond of saying as a pastor, “there are no lone rangers in the Bible.” Christians are meant to congregate together (and, as an atheist, I miss the sense of community I had as a believer).
That said, I understand Chris’s frustration with Christianity at large. Many of the readers of this blog, myself included, were what I call disaffected Christians. Our paths away from Christianity began when we looked at the church (collectively) and said to ourselves that there’s something wrong here. For me, my journey didn’t end there. The reason that I am an atheist today is that I came to the conclusion that the central claims of Christianity are not true. If I were to blame someone or something for my deconversion, it wouldn’t be the church. All told, I was a happy pastor who pastored wonderful people. Polly and I had a good life in the ministry. The blame, then, rests solely on the Bible and the claims Christians make from its words. Why am I an atheist? The Bible. And my secret desire to live a debauched, licentious life. 🙂 Bring on the whores, booze, and coke. Praise Satan! 🙂
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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I’m getting to where all I’m seeing from these types of commenters is “God blah blah blah Jesus blah blah faith blah blah love blah blah.”
Chris’s response:
Hello 🙂 I tried to reply on your website but it was too long.
“What Chris mean is this: according to my personal interpretation of the Protestant Christian Bible, this is wrong. There’s no such thing as a “right” interpretation.”
You deleted the scripture I included to prove my point. My understanding is that you were making a claim about people you call “Evangelicals”, and I was pointing out that the argument you outlined (belonging to Evangelicals) does not match the Word of God.
I don’t know how you concluded that “there’s no such thing as a right interpretation”. It’s the exact opposite. There is a right interpretation, which is why I gave scripture to prove that the “Evangelical” interpretation was wrong. A right interpretation is one that can be supported by the Word of God.
“Every sect, every pastor, every Christian thinks their beliefs are right.”
Maybe so, which is why we don’t follow human teachers – we follow the Word of God.
Romans 3 (KJV)
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
“Every sect, pastor, and Christian defends their beliefs by appealing to the Bible. How, then, do we know who is right and who is wrong?”
Generally we know by using the bible as the authority. Often there’s nuance that requires study and contemplation to understand. Some issues are difficult, and there’s no clear right and wrong.
To illustrate, let’s look at Ephesians 2, which creates a lot of confusion:
Ephesians 2 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Many people quote verse 8-9 and conclude that “we aren’t saved by works”, but ignore verse 10 – that we’re saved unto good works. But this is a complex topic, which requires reading much more about works vs faith – it’s one of the main focuses of the New Testament. So I gave you a few verses in my last post, but all I can really give you is my shorthand explanation, and then through this back and forth, hopefully we arrive at a deeper understanding.
“Christians have been arguing with each other for 2,000 years. Jesus was barely dead before Paul, Peter, and James got into arguments over what constituted salvation. Who’s right? How could we possibly know?”
We can all understand better. Understanding isn’t something you possess, it’s something you refine. The debates are useful in refining our understanding. And so we, as people with less than perfect understanding, ponder, discuss and argue about things – just like everyone else on every other topic. But over time, our understanding grows. So with regard to who’s right – God is. If you want a simple answer:
Matthew 22 (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
But of course wisdom isn’t simple:
Isaiah 28 (KJV)
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
So until we’re perfected, we’ll have shortcomings and disagreements.
“Yet, there are thousands of Christian sects, each believing they hold to the “faith once delivered to the saints.””
If God only saved those with perfect understanding, none would be saved. That’s the whole point of the Gospel – it’s not about the works you’ve done, or about the knowledge you have – it’s about how you live your life.
Galatians 5 (KJV)
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
“Well, I am an atheist, so I don’t care what the Bible is for or against.”
You blog about it…
“Again, I could easily use the Bible to refute everything Chris says.”
Please do – I love talking about scripture.
“I reject the Christian concept of “sin,” a tool used to cause fear and guilt so “sinners” will seek out a remedy for their “sin” through the church. Sin is the problem, salvation through Jesus is the solution, preachers say. I reject this construct out of hand.”
I also reject your concept of sin, and your understanding of salvation. Assuming you aren’t perfect, then you sin. The Gospel of grace is the forgiveness of sins through faith, i.e. it doesn’t matter if you aren’t perfect, God still loves you, and is not going to condemn you because your works weren’t perfect, or because you fell short of perfect understanding.
God is slow to anger and full of mercy. satan is the one who uses sin to control people. he is the tempter and accuser. If your experience of the church is as you describe (which correlates with my experience), then this is proof that there is something wrong in the church.
“Humans do good and bad things. As an atheist and a humanist, my goal is to be a good person: to love and help my wife, children, grandchildren, friends, neighbors, and fellow humans. Do I fail? Sure. I can be self-centered, self-indulgent, and self-righteous.”
“From my perspective, all that matters is how we live, how we treat others. The goal should be well-being and reducing/eliminating harm (not only for humans, but other animals, and our planet). ”
Exactly, apart from the atheist bit 😛
“Chris wants to claim the Christian moniker, but doesn’t go to church and doesn’t like “Christianity” — meaning Christian belief systems other than his. Christianity and the Bible are inseparably linked. The church gave us the Bible. I can’t envision someone being a Christian in a meaningful sense without the church.”
Calling yourself “Christian” doesn’t mean that you follow the Word of God. Calling your congregation a “Church” doesn’t mean you are part of the body of Christ (the church of Scientology for example). The reason I put “Christianity” in quotation marks was to show that I don’t think the worldly “Christianity” is the real thing, and the reason why is because “Christianity” doesn’t follow the Word of God.
2 Peter 2 (KJV)
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Paul writes of a falling away in the last days:
2 Thessalonians 2 (KJV)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
And judgment will begin at the house of God (because the “Church” does more harm than good at this time):
1 Peter 4 (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
We are not judged by the name we give ourselves or the people we hang out with, but by the Word of God.
John 12 (KJV)
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Elijah was critical of Israel.
“The blame, then, rests solely on the Bible and the claims Christians make from its words.”
Your complaints are with “Christianity”, and yet you blame the bible.
“I look at what I preached and how I treated others, all in the name of God and according to the teachings of the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God. I see myself as a victim and victimizer.”
I have two bits of good news. Firstly, you were wrong about what you preached and how you acted, and secondly, you will be forgiven if you repent.
” And my secret desire to live a debauched, licentious life. Bring on the whores, booze, and coke. Praise Satan!”
I’ll assume this is a joke, because if not it undermines everything else you’ve written.
I preach if you’re interested
You missed my point: every “right interpretation” can be proved by the Bible. You wrongly think you have some sort of elevated understanding of the Bible. I watched your introduction video on your YouTube channel:
https://youtu.be/QzyRMfETdYY
You seem to think you have an inside track on Biblical truth. Take your belief that the rapture is imminent. How do you know this is true, especially since there are other eschatological systems? You seem to think everyone is “ignorant” of the truth except you and few other chosen ones. Can you not see how arrogant this sounds, especially in light of 2,000 years of Church history.
You are walking down a dangerous path, Chris. I hope you will reconsider your Fundamentalist beliefs. I am more than happy to talk with you about these things if you wish. I am not, however, interested in proof-texting, a tool you seem to think is effective in reaching people with what you perceive is “truth.” You must first give evidence for your claim that the Bible is the Word of God; that it is inerrant, infallible, and authoritative. Without such evidence, why should we care what the Bible says.
If you have not read any of Dr Bart Ehrman’s books, I encourage you to do so. Ehrman is a NT scholar at the University of North Carolina. He writes popular books on the history and nature of the Bible. I think you will find his books illuminating.
“every “right interpretation” can be proved by the Bible”
Yes true, but the point I was trying to make is that it’s not as simple as “this is the truth”. Here’s the truth:
Romans 10 (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
But for many people that is meaningless. For many it sounds ridiculous. And for many it is misinterpreted. Because understanding is not something that is possessed, it is something that is refined. How can you possibly understand what the above scripture means if you remove context?
An example would be – “cars work by burning petrol”. Which is a true statement, but wholly insufficient if you want to ACTUALLY understand how cars work. So we have shorthand ways of giving the basic summary of truth, and then we spend our lifetime exploring the details and nuances, and experiencing how the simple truth at the core of our understanding manifests in many complex ways.
But it’s impossible to show the complex, deeper, precept upon precept understanding in a reply to a blog post. I know there’s more to it, and I’ve preached some of the details, but I can only speak in basic statements, backup up by the Word of God – because I’m arguing from the Word of God. To increase in understanding, you have to continue to learn, and learn how to apply the things you’ve learned:
John 8 (KJV)
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
This is why the answers “Christianity” gives are unsatisfying. There’s a problem in the Church system where people have the basic truth – that Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again the third day according to the scriptures – and they have grace through faith, not of works, and a few other basic things. But that’s as far as it goes for many. And so the wisdom of Jesus Christ is never truly manifested – the “why”.
And the Church is often in error, because instead of continuing in the Word, and letting God refine their understanding, they instead do their own extrapolations from what they think they know, and stray away from God.
“You seem to think you have an inside track on Biblical truth.”
I have nothing special. I’ve simply followed the instructions written in the bible. The point perhaps you missed with that video is that I’m not just talking about God in my videos, but also a bunch of conspiracy stuff that’s been going on. I’ve been documenting things to be referred to by people who aren’t aware at this time.
“You seem to think everyone is “ignorant” of the truth except you and few other chosen ones.”
This is your straw-man, not what I actually believe. It’s possible to see that other people in error without needing to claim that I’m perfect. I don’t know all things, and never have I claimed to. The opposite – I’m barely scratching the surface. However, I’m doing the work, and the more I learn, the clearer it becomes to me that other people aren’t doing the work, and aren’t learning. You’ve raised children, so no doubt there have been times when it’s clear your children don’t understand something. Presumably you don’t then claim to have all knowledge, but instead point out the errors they’re making and correct them.
“Take your belief that the rapture is imminent. How do you know this is true, especially since there are other eschatological systems?”
I don’t know, but it’s my best guess based on my current understanding through research. Keep in mind that the video you referenced is two years old, and I have learned much since then. Which is one of the things I hope to get across in my videos – I’m continuing to learn. I often revisit topics I’ve already covered, and question things I previously thought were true. No doubt you do the same?
“I am not, however, interested in proof-texting, a tool you seem to think is effective in reaching people with what you perceive is “truth.” You must first give evidence for your claim that the Bible is the Word of God; that it is inerrant, infallible, and authoritative. Without such evidence, why should we care what the Bible says.”
I give a basic argument here in contrast to science – https://youtu.be/vStnPvdxAOU
But simplistically, I believe that the Word of God is the truth, and therefore I argue from it. And I believe that this is what being a Christian is – trusting in the Word of God. Jesus IS the Word of God made flesh, so faith in Jesus literally means faith in the scriptures – which are the testimony of Jesus Christ. So if we’re having a conversation about Jesus, then necessarily we’re having a conversation about scripture. This explains the distinction between “Christianity” and “Jesus”.
John 1 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
…..
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Revelation 19 (KJV)
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
And so my point is – don’t conflate the errors of people with the truth of scripture. If you want to bash the church, go ahead. But the best way to do it is to show their hypocrisy and ignorance by using arguments based on scripture. What greater condemnation can you bring against false religion than to use their own scriptures against them?
You miss my point again. You seem to think there is a singular interpretation of every Bible verse. Fine, let’s start with Acts 2:38. What does this verse mean? Can it have multiple meanings?
Allegedly, the Holy Spirit lives inside of every believer. If they are wrong — and you are implying only a select few know the truth — isn’t the Holy Spirit to blame for being such a piss poor teacher of all things that pertain to life and godliness?
Do you have any formal training in theology, church history, or Greek?
“You seem to think there is a singular interpretation of every Bible verse. Fine, let’s start with Acts 2:38. What does this verse mean? Can it have multiple meanings?”
A verse can have multiple meanings in an additive sense – it means this and ALSO this. An easy example would be the parables, which have a literal meaning, and also a deeper spiritual meaning – which Jesus explains. And then in other places, symbology is used to elucidate a point – for example comparing Israel to God’s vineyard.
But a verse can’t have multiple conflicting interpretations. For example, if Paul says:
Romans 3 (KJV)
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
You can’t then interpret James to be saying that we’re justified by the deeds of the law:
James 2 (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Which means that James is referring to something else – i.e. the works of the obedience of faith, out of love.
The bible interprets itself, so when coming up with a particular interpretation, the rightness or wrongness of the interpretation is measured by whether it can be justified by other verses of scripture.
With regard to Acts:
Acts 2 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Let’s break it down. Repent – turn from sin back to God (we know this from the context of Israel being in rebellion, having just crucified Jesus).
Be baptized – we know that before this, baptism was with water, but in this context we know that is it referring to the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 3 (KJV)
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Because Acts is after Jesus’ resurrection, and just after the Holy Ghost was first given, and we are told in the verse itself that the baptism is in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins – to receive the Holy Ghost.
Now I might be wrong in this interpretation, but if you were to counter me – from a Christian perspective – the method would be to use scripture to present a counter argument.
“Allegedly, the Holy Spirit lives inside of every believer. If they are wrong — and you are implying only a select few know the truth — isn’t the Holy Spirit to blame for being such a piss poor teacher of all things that pertain to life and godliness?”
This is a question I ponder. We are told that it is possible to fall away:
Hebrews 6 (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
And Paul (and the other New Testament writers, including Jesus in the letters in Revelation) admonishes believers, for example:
Galatians 3 (KJV)
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
So as far as the Holy Spirit being a poor teacher – not in my experience. I think the more likely explanation is that many are poor students. How many Christians don’t even read the bible?
“Do you have any formal training in theology, church history, or Greek?”
No.
Chris, like every other Christian, you invent your own version with your magic decoder ring. You insist that only your version is the “right” one.
Unsurprisingly, no Christian can show that their claims are true, unable to do what ol’ JC promised his true followers to be able to do. You apparently are all frauds.
Chris,
I beg you, please sign up for some college-level classes on theology and hermenuetics. Your “interpretation” of Acts 2:38 is not born out contextually, and I don’t know of a scholar who interprets this text as you do. The context says that the baptism is Acts 2:38 is water baptism. See Acts 2:41.
Once you understand this, then we can talk about whether people are baptized FOR the remission of sins (Church of Christ) or BECAUSE of the remission of sins (Baptist). What I intended to show you is that your lack of training and simplistic view of the Biblical text is leading you astray.
I read the Bible and studied it intensely for most of my adult life. Yet, you think I am wrong. How do we determine who is right? Draw straws?
Chris: I’m so amused by this statement: “Every sect, every pastor, every Christian thinks their beliefs are right.”
Maybe so, which is why we don’t follow human teachers – we follow the Word of God.
Can’t you see the blindingly obvious, that every one of those other x-tians are as earnestly following their interpretation of the word of god as you are? Why is yours the only right one? Have you ever considered that ‘thinking’ you are right, doesn’t necessarily make it so? I’ve met other trolls online who told me to come back to jesus. And that they didn’t attend those corrupt worldly places called churches. I always quote Screwtape whose advice to Wormwood on how to derail a x-tian, was to make him more and more nit-picky over doctrine. He’d then find himself moving further and further away from his fellow-believers till he became a church of one person. No one else had his purity of doctrine. Said trolls have never responded after I write that.
Why are you assuming that because I have an opinion that I must believe that my interpretation is the only right one?
“Have you ever considered that ‘thinking’ you are right, doesn’t necessarily make it so?”
Yes. I even change what I believe when I’m presented with new evidence.
“I always quote Screwtape whose advice to Wormwood on how to derail a x-tian, was to make him more and more nit-picky over doctrine.”
This is a potential snare, I agree. I think it’s part of the process of interacting with other people is to recognize which fights are worth having. Paul warns about such things:
Titus 3 (KJV)
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
“He’d then find himself moving further and further away from his fellow-believers till he became a church of one person.”
It’s a question of whether or not you are willing to compromise what you believe to be true, or what are you willing to compromise.
Chris said: “ Why are you assuming that because I have an opinion that I must believe that my interpretation is the only right one?”
Your videos reflect that you think you are absolutely right; that you are one of a few who know the “truth.”
You tell your family that the rapture is imminent; that you made your videos for them to watch after you are raptured away; that they shouldn’t listen to anyone but you after the rapture.
Chris, I’m gonna cut to my own chase here, since I suspect you’re still reading comments.
The Bible–entire thing–is a CLAIM. It doesn’t prove a darn thing.
Proving things requires EVIDENCE. Evidence is real. It can be examined, or it leaves traces that can be examined. I’m trained as a geologist, we study the history and behavior of our planet through the traces that the historical behavior leaves behind, whether that history is from the first evidence of a solid planet or whether it’s from a seismometer record made a few seconds ago. We geologists do a lot on inference. We back up and reassess a lot. Still, the scientific method gives us very, very good pointers to how to identify and evaluate evidence. We can spot it and knock it down if it isn’t real, as can our colleagues in every other branch of science.
There is no scientifically legitimate evidence for any deity. That doesn’t mean there isn’t one, just that they haven’t demonstrated their existence in a way we can relate to our scientific understanding of our universe. Arguments that God can’t be identified with evidence that passes muster using the scientific method is pissing in the wind. Sorry.
Fussing over proof texts is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic to me. You don’t have an ounce of true evidence for the existence of your deity. There are no historical texts from the right era, there is no backup, there is no Roman history recording the existence of miracles, and so on. But the Christian deity(ies?) is/are not alone, they have great company, the deities of every other religion.
So. Top tier journal evidence (for something this big, that effectively means the journals Nature or Science) or it isn’t real.
“The Bible–entire thing–is a CLAIM. It doesn’t prove a darn thing. Proving things requires EVIDENCE. Evidence is real. It can be examined, or it leaves traces that can be examined.”
I agree.
“There is no scientifically legitimate evidence for any deity. That doesn’t mean there isn’t one, just that they haven’t demonstrated their existence in a way we can relate to our scientific understanding of our universe. Arguments that God can’t be identified with evidence that passes muster using the scientific method is pissing in the wind. Sorry.”
Don’t be sorry, it’s not possible to prove OR disprove God using the scientific method.
“You don’t have an ounce of true evidence for the existence of your deity.”
There is an abundance of evidence. It’s just that science, by it’s own standards, disallows the possibility of spirits, because you rely on the observable, testable and repeatable. You can’t observe the invisible. You can’t test what is spiritual using the physical. And you can’t replicate the actions of an outside, conscious being. If I say that I have a relationship with God, what will you say?
“There are no historical texts from the right era”
You know the bible exists right?
“there is no Roman history recording the existence of miracles”
There are no signs given at this time except the resurrection:
Matthew 12 (KJV)
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
“But the Christian deity(ies?) is/are not alone”
You don’t know that there is one God in Christianity?
1 Timothy 2 (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
“they have great company, the deities of every other religion.”
If you study comparative religion, you will discover that the gods of other religions are all the same. It’s quite interesting. And those gods are the rebellious spiritual powers. Are you aware that science is paganism? Kabbalistic Seeds of Astrophysics, Evolution, and Quantum Theory – https://youtu.be/5O-4X9CkpmE
“Top tier journal evidence (for something this big, that effectively means the journals Nature or Science) or it isn’t real.”
And there are your scriptures, in which you have faith, which are regularly wrong (by their own admission). The people who write that stuff are religious. You know that right? Why do you think they name things after pagan gods?
If you really want to know if God is real, then call to Jesus and ask Him to show you.
“There are no signs given at this time except the resurrection”
ROFL. Nice ot see that Chris hasn’t read his bible.
“11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; but if you do not, then believe me because of the works themselves. 12 Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If in my name you ask me[e] for anything, I will do it.” John 14
“If I say that I have a relationship with God, what will you say?”
you are playing pretend like any theist. By your claim that “evidence” is your baseless claims, every god is as real as yours.
“Are you aware that science is paganism?”
poor dear, it’s not. It’s science.
“If you really want to know if God is real, then call to Jesus and ask Him to show you.”
and the classic nonsense from the Christian, in an attempt to blame the victim. I was a Christian. I prayed to this god for help when I was losing my faith. Surprise, calling to Jesus does nothing at all. This nonsense from Chris is only said so he can insist that we weren’t sincere” when calling out.
“ROFL. Nice ot see that Chris hasn’t read his bible.”
Haven’t I? Who was Jesus talking to, and when? His disciples – who were witnesses to His miracles.
Who was Jesus talking to here:
Matthew 12 (KJV)
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
The Jews, who were asking for a miracle to prove He was the Christ.
And what does Paul say?
Romans 8 (KJV)
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Hebrews 11 (KJV)
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
So you’re conflating one thing with another. We are saved by grace through FAITH – not through witnessing signs and wonders.
“you are playing pretend like any theist. By your claim that “evidence” is your baseless claims, every god is as real as yours.”
So your experience is more valid than mine? I must be lying? And not just me, but everyone else through history that has made a similar claim? And yet you claim that every god is as real as mine, which means that every religious person who claims to have experienced the spiritual world is lying?
“It’s science.”
You should watch the video I linked, or do other exploration. Or do you think it’s just a co-incidence that science comes from paganism, and honors the pagan gods? The claim that science is paganism is hardly a secret.
“and the classic nonsense from the Christian, in an attempt to blame the victim. I was a Christian. I prayed to this god for help when I was losing my faith. Surprise, calling to Jesus does nothing at all. This nonsense from Chris is only said so he can insist that we weren’t sincere” when calling out.”
I can’t speak to your personal experience, but I also won’t call you a liar. All I can do is testify that God is real, and that Jesus is the way.
But Chris, Jesus also said,
Mark 16:17-18 (KJV)
“And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”
I would guess that “them that believe” refers to any believers, not just the Apostles or Christians of the time. Especially since this passage comes after Mark’s version of the Great Comission. Unless, like many modern translators, you accept that this part is missing from the oldest manuscripts and is rather suspect.
Chris, I’m not an atheist or agnostic. Here is the thing: quoting verse after verse of the Bible doesn’t change many minds about the existence of God. Atheists and agnostics already discount it, and those who are inclined to believe it already believe. You might get someone to change their flavor of Christianity. But in the end, why are you doing this? Most people I’ve come across who are atheists or agnostics have spent time thinking carefully about their lack of belief. And the difference between someone who believes the Bible is factual and inerrant and someone who has learned the Bible is inconsistent and contradictory, is a bridge too far to cross with knowledge. Only faith can cross this chasm, but in my experience, atheists and agnostics who have studied these questions can’t have faith. At all. Why should they? They see nothing in those Christians that leads them to believe there is any truth in the Bible.
In the end, Christians would be better off trying to love their fellow man, and stop being bigots. Because a show of great love* from Christians** to the ones they currently despise, would be at least the beginnings of proof that there is no greater love. Sadly, most of the vocal Christians in this era have shown they hate too many people to be convincing. And that they only show “love” to people to convert them, otherwise, they disdain their fellow man. I thought that “loving your neighbor as yourself” meant something, but to most Christians, it means only the people just like them, and not all of humankind.
*Beating people over the head with Bible verses isn’t love. Telling them they are Hell bound isn’t love. Love is feeding the poor, visiting the sick, widows, and those in prison. It’s helping a person of a despised group unconditionally, and being a member of a despised group forgiving their tormentors. Unless I see a Christian doing these things, I’m not too interested in their faith.
**Not all Christians.
Chris, I must take you to task over your claim that science is ‘pagan’. To my mind the word pagan means nothing more than beliefs based on faith, but which do not fit into mainstream religion. You’d probably describe paganism as ‘superstition’ in nature. In reality, it’s absolutely no different to your beliefs, which are not based on evidence (certainly not an ‘abundance’), and include all sorts of rituals which to outsiders are nothing more than superstition (praying is the most obvious).
Regardless, science has no connection with religion or with paganism, other than in trivial ways, such as naming planets after Roman gods. You could just as easily say that science is linguistic in nature because Covid variants are named after letters of the Greek alphabet. And there your comparison ends. I suspect you’re trying to demean science by asserting it is some form of religion (interesting that implicit in this claim is your realisation that religion is somehow demeaning), when it’s the exact opposite of religion. Science is a method, and it’s a method that works and produces tangible results (in 2000 years Christianity has produced nothing, other than when its adherents have adopted the scientific method). Of course, there can be bad science, which is exposed by proper science, or science producing things that aren’t of benefit, but trying to pretend that science is in any way akin to religion displays nothing more than palpable ignorance.
So, Chris, True Christian™ that you are, you can perform miracles just like the Bible claims, right?
Right?
crickets
No, I didn’t think so. I believe that you simply imagine the Jesus that you communicate with, and that nothing has ever happened in your life that violates physical laws or probability distributions.
I believe that “God” is an unproven entity and that any real Jesus has been stone dead and in his grave for nearly two millennia. That’s the real reason for the “call to Jesus” BS – it sets up the mind for an “answer” that actually comes from our own imaginations, not from any actual outside source.
“Don’t throw away God because the “Christian” religion is awful. You can have a personal relationship with God by His Word. I don’t go to church, and I don’t like “Christianity” – but Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.”
so Chris is nothing new, just one more Christian who invented his own version…..just like EVERY other Christian.
Yep. There are countless Christianities, each believing theirs is the truth.
A comment I read recently, attributed to Thomas Brackett Reed: “They never open their mouths without subtracting from the sum of human knowledge” seems applicable to that person!
😂😂😂😂
I don’t believe that the canonized gospels are the factual recounting of what Jesus may have said or done. I believe they are a compilation of oral myths and legends passed around by people who wanted to believe they were true. Scholars have dated these writings to many decades after the life span of Jesus, and there are no historical records from the Romans or any others corroborating Jesus’ life, death, actions, words. Of course, the absence of corroboration doesn’t mean definitively that these things didn’t happen, but it’s unlikely that they did. So quoting excerpts from these writings means no more to me than if someone quoted Harry Potter. In any case, Bruce is correct – there are contradictory statements in the Bible.
Karen says to Chris: You don’t have an ounce of true evidence for the existence of your deity.”
Chris replies: There is an abundance of evidence.
Bruce says: please provide this abundant evidence. Not evidence for “A” God, but for “THE” God — Chris’s peculiar God. The Bible isn’t evidence, it’s a claim. Nature isn’t evidence. At best, you might be able to demonstrate the existence of a deistic deity. But Chris’s peculiar God? Not a chance. (I have been batting apologists around for fifteen years. I’ve yet to have a Christian successfully make an argument for the Bible God from nature.) Conscience isn’t evidence either. Biology and sociology easily explain where morality comes from. What’s left, Chris. Mere assertion? Thus saith the Lord? I just know it in my heart? Subjective claims won’t cut it for me and most of the readers of this blog. We value science, reason, and evidence.
Keep in mind many of us are former pastors, evangelists, missionaries, youth workers, worship leaders, professors, concubines, and strippers. Okay, maybe not the last two. 😈😈 Proof-texting really doesn’t fly with us. There’s a wealth of collective knowledge on this site. If you are here to preach and evangelize, you will be sorely disappointed.