But I want to argue that after wading through all of this nonsense, it is actually the mother who is the most responsible party in having an abortion. After all, the mantra, “my body my choice” should, if consistently applied, make that case.
However, mothers are in actuality the most responsible for this vile attack on the Image of God and hatred toward mankind. It is the mother who has veto power over her own body—remember, “my body, my choice.” It is the mother who is ultimately responsible for allowing the abortion to take within her body on the separate body in her womb. She is the ultimate protector of the unborn; it is a great responsibility. And with that responsibility comes accountability.
The only innocent victim in an abortion is the child who was murdered in the act.
So let’s stop with excuses. Under current law, no mother would be expected to be deemed innocent for choosing to murder her children.
— Jeff Maples, The Dissenter, Despite What Big Eva is Saying, The Most Guilty Party in an Abortion is the Mother, May 16, 2022
Bruce Gerencser, 65, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 44 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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This confirms that these men are misogynists, plain and simple. They need to have complete control over women. They do NOT care anything for women, they barely tolerate children. It’s time to quit treating them as moral and ethical human beings. They use their religion as cover to be shitty human beings. Time to stop being nice to them. Period.
“However, mothers are in actuality the most responsible for this vile attack on the Image of God and hatred toward mankind. ”
what’s happening here is that Jeff is upset that people don’t agree with him and thus he sees it as an attack. It’s his image that he sees being attacked.
” It is the mother who is ultimately responsible for allowing the abortion to take within her body on the separate body in her womb. She is the ultimate protector of the unborn; it is a great responsibility. And with that responsibility comes accountability.”
this is quite the incoherent mess. Yep, the mother is having the abortion, and no dear, it isn’t a separate body. A woman is the ultimate protector of herself, no one else.
“Under current law, no mother would be expected to be deemed innocent for choosing to murder her children.”
hmmm, so since this god constantly is murdering its own “children”, killing them for no reason, or for the actions of others, just like it promises not to do, then this god isn’t innocent at all. And gee, under “current law”, abortion is perfectly fine. Funny how these moronic Christians can’t figure this out.
I hope this guy goes nowhere near a uterus.
As we say in the medical laboratory world, as a matter of semantics: “product of conception”.
These people are kooks.
Bruce, I have to confess that even if I didn’t believe in God, which I do, I would still oppose abortion. And that’s because I do care about women and children.
So do you agree with Jeff Maples above, that a woman should be prosecuted for murder???
If you must know, yes.
Mark, I have to disagree with your brainwashed concept of “murder”. Have you ever seen a miscarriage? Have you ever seen, “products of conception”? Do you know what a spontaneous abortion is? Unless you’ve worked as a pathologist or in a pathology office in a hospital laboratory or a medical examiner’s office, or an abortion clinic, chances are, the answer is no.
Well, I have. I worked EMS the first 11 years of my adult life, then in a hospital laboratory for more than 20 years. I have seen many specimens of the “products of conception” and at many rates of gestational age, mostly being “spontaneous abortions”, better known as miscarriages, and DNC’s performed in an operating room because the fetus has died or isn’t viable. I’ve also seen still-born fetuses who died at birth. Your “god” being the murderer to a couple’s hopes of having a child.
Do you know what a miscarriage looks like? A miscarriage is a product of conception up to 20 weeks gestation. You know what it looks like? Nothing like a baby. It looks like a very heavy period. No distinguishable human features, unlike what you’ve been brainwashed to believe, yet you feel it’s murder. I find that oxymoronic considering a miscarriage, according to people like you, is, “god’s will”. Yet, people like you want to call an early term abortion-“murder”. Can we hold your murderous, psychopathic god accountable for allowing rapists to rape and kill children? What about the innocent elderly who are murdered by an intruder trying to steal their social security checks? What about all the children being abducted, molested and tortured by pedophiles, even in your churches? Is that ok, because your deity thinks, it’s “his will”? What about genocide committed by evil dictators and their, “ethnic cleansing”? Where are your Christian voices, then? Oh, wait…a woman may die trying to take a pregnancy to full term is considered “murder” if she decides to save her own life and you think you have the right to step in and intercede because you’ve been brainwashed by the far right political channels. A young girl gets raped by Uncle Ted and turns out to be pregnant because this douche’s heart wasn’t changed by your all knowing-all loving, omnipresent deity and now-you people think this girl, who’s body isn’t matured for pregnancy or birth, should take this child of rape to term because, “it’s god’s will”. Otherwise, through no fault of her own, you consider it “murder”.
Why does your self-proclaimed deity allow such things to happen in the first place? I mean, isn’t he all that and a bag of chips? Isn’t he “in control” of the universe and all who inhabit it? If so, why doesn’t this lazy being stop allowing the innocent to be tortured and murdered at the hands of mostly-MEN? Satan? If your deity is so powerful and all-knowing, why doesn’t he just get rid of all evil in the world? If you answer with anything like, “it’s god’s will”, you have proven my point that this god doesn’t really exist or just isn’t as powerful as claimed and is quite a pathological, narcissistic psychopath not worthy of admiration. Abortion is also not “murder” and is an actual medical procedure. Products of conception is NOT an actual fetus, a.k.a. “baby”.
Lacy, how dare you blame God for the evil things people do? He is no more to blame for that than he is for Adam and Eve eating the fruit that he had told them not to eat.
I admit you raise valid points with regards to incest and a mother’s life being in danger and cannot see any valid answers but abortion is not it. I’m certain of that.
You also shouldn’t blame God for miscarriages or stillborn births. God doesn’t cause sickness. These things happen because this is a broken world. But I believe that one day Jesus will return to fix this world.
So, God is not sovereign and neither is he in control of his creation? Does anything happen apart from God’s purpose and plan? According to the Bible, God opens and closes the womb. Do you deny the Word of God says this?
“I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the Lord, who do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)
Did God give humans freewill? If so, God is responsible for the “evil” perpetrated by humankind. You can’t absolve God of culpability just because it makes him look bad.
I see that numerous pages are missing from your Bible, the pages that talk about God afflicting humans with pain, suffering, and death. And then there’s the book of Revelation. Who is the one doing all that shit TO people in Revelation.
Is Jesus the giver and taker of life? According to the Bible, he is. Thus, if life begins at fertilization and a zygote/fetus is miscarried, who is ultimately responsible? Jesus (who is God, right?)
Jesus has had 2,000 years to fix the world. So far? Nothing. He and his father, along with the Holy Spirit are nowhere to be found.
Mark, I know you mean well, but you are out of your depth here. Many of the readers of this blog are former pastors, missionaries, evangelists, worship leaders, college professors, and church leaders, people who know the Protestant Christian Bible inside and out. We are not ignorant about what the Bible allegedly says.
You want to pick and choose what to believe from the Bible. I understand doing this. All Christians do, as I did as a Christian and a pastor.
OK. And because most jurisdictions do not have a statute of limitations when it comes to murder, do you support prosecuting all women in the present who have admitted to having had an abortion in the past? Including those who are currently born again Christians, who have confessed to having had an abortion in the past? Should they be presently prosecuted for their past “murderous” conduct?
Just as with so many of an individual’s life experiences, the deeper you get into the weeds, the less black and white it can become. And yet, conversely, for some people, “Praise be”.
OK you got me there. I think I should have said unrepentant women. There is no sin God won’t forgive.
“OK you got me there. I think I should have said unrepentant women. There is no sin God won’t forgive.”
unsurprisingly, Mark is one more Christian who has no clue what is in his bible and then tells everyone they should follow it.
@Mark, I am not looking for an argument, am merely curious what your reasons are, or what circumstances.
Do you support comprehensive sex education for students, access to affordable contraception and Healthcare, social programs for people who need them, education funding, funding for foster care services, etc? Unfortunately, the US has the highest rates of maternal and infant mortality among wealthy nations, and our US states with the most restrictions on abortion also rank lowest in all the services and education metrics that I mentioned above. Death, illness, poor education outcomes, and/or poverty seem to be the destiny of many in the US who lack choices in their reproduction. Most women who have abortions typically do so within the first trimester, well before any sort of viability is possible, and most abortions are done via pill, quite safely. I know several women whose diagnostic ultrasounds at 18-20 weeks showed that the fetuses they carried were seriously malformed such that death to the fetus would occur either before birth or soon after. My friends chose to terminate so they could recover emotionally and physically in order to be able to actually have a much-wanted child. My friends, fortunately, were able to have 1-4 healthy children after their abortions. I can’t imagine what things may have been like had they been forced to carry dead or dying fetuses until their bodies forced birth to occur, and all the additional physical and emotional trauma resulting from full-term birth of a stillborn. I am a competitive endurance athlete, and despite all the hard competitions I have participated in, the 2 childbirths were the most difficult and traumatic physical experiences I have encountered. Anyone who hasn’t experienced childbirth cannot possibly fathom what it is like.
Of course I support healthcare and all that. Nevertheless I oppose abortion also because it is fraught with risks. I have read about women who had their wombs damaged or worse lost their lives because of abortion.
Mark, have you ever heard of Savita Halappanavar? She was a dentist who died from sepsis because she couldn’t get an abortion to remove a non-viable fetus from her body.
I assume, then, that you oppose gallbladder surgery or heart surgery too. Both of these surgeries are “fraught with risks,” as are ALL surgeries and medical procedures. In fact, virtually everything we do in life is “fraught with risk.” You might want to rethink this objection to abortion. Wouldn’t it just be better for you to say, “the Bible says” or “God says,” end of discussion? Your objections are religious, not scientific.
Yes, some women have had complications from having an abortion. I have had numerous medical procedures over the years. Several of them led to complications. Yet, without the one surgery, I would have died. Abortion is a safe medical procedure. Not risk-free, but safe.
I suspect, for you, none of this matters. God has spoken.
According to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, abortion pills are a safe and effective way to perform abortions in the 1st trimester. I am not able to copy the link to the website here for some reason, but if you have concerns you should check their website. As a person who does not have a uterus or other female reproductive organs, I doubt you have had many reasons to consult with an OB/GYN or to peruse the website of ACOG. As someone who does have or has had those organs, I visit my OB/GYN at least once a year, and more often when I had reproductive concerns. It may be useful to educate yourself from actual medical sources if you are concerned about female reproductive concerns. I would suggest starting with ACOG and speaking with actual trained OB/GYNs who specialized in female reproductive health.
abortion is literally 14 times safer than a pregnancy. Mark is desperate making excuses for his vile beliefs.
I care about women and children too, and that’s why I am pro-choice. Most abortions take place in the first trimester, well before viability. I can think of no rational reason to oppose abortion in these circumstances. I have written extensively on this subject:
https://brucegerencser.net/2016/07/abortion-murder-rationalists-take/ (By Tristan Vick)
Well, Mark, it’s amusing that you worship a god that supposedly has killed children repeatedly, and has caused the abortions of many, if you believe that everything is this god’s “will”.
You don’t care about women and children. You care about being obeyed, in the form of that god you invent in your own image. Pregnancy can kill, and you want to force women to risk their lives.
I wonder, Mark, are you for free contraception? Are you for forcing a child to have a baby out of rape or incest? It seems you are with your wanting to lie and claim women who have abortions are committing murder. I also wonder, how many politicians have you voted for that have tried to reduce SNAP, welfare, WIC, affordable housing, good education, safe water, etc to those actual children you claim you care so much about. I’m guessing you are just one more hypocrite for Christ, like any other conservative.
and oh my.
“Lacy, how dare you blame God for the evil things people do? He is no more to blame for that than he is for Adam and Eve eating the fruit that he had told them not to eat.”
that’s quite a set of lies, Mark. Your god is responsible for putting the fruit where A&E could get at it and for either being too stupid to keep the ol’ debbil out or intentionally allowing it in. Which is it, Mark?
“I admit you raise valid points with regards to incest and a mother’s life being in danger and cannot see any valid answers but abortion is not it. I’m certain of that.”
And surprise, Mark has no answers, just whining that what he lies about should be law. Pregnancy can kill and Mark doesn’t care at all. He again only wants to be obeyed.
“You also shouldn’t blame God for miscarriages or stillborn births. God doesn’t cause sickness. These things happen because this is a broken world. But I believe that one day Jesus will return to fix this world.”
Hmmm, funny how Christians want to claim that everything is this god’s will, except for when they want to claim it isn’t. Your bible says this god causes sickness. Your bible kills David’s son by causing sickness when this god promised it wouldn’t hold children accountable for what the parents do. It kills children for the actions of others repeatedly, showing it lies. Mark’s god is a vicious failure. Happily, it is imaginary.
Be as condescending as you like but I am not a liar.
You are a liar. You have no idea what your bible says, as evinced by your nonsense that your god will supposedly forgive everything and isn’t claimed to be the cause of sickness, when your bible is quite clear otherwise. And surprise, you refused to answer my questions.
Mark, you are just one more liar for Christ who claims he’s concerned about “women and children” but won’t help the ones that are already here.
Mark, you actually, when you think about it, can’t say you’d oppose abortion as a non-theist? If you’ve never been a non-theist, you can’t know. Maybe you would, maybe not.
I believe Mark genuinely, honestly cares for women and children both. In his belief he unfortunately mocks the God he believes in, by taking a stance so opposed to God’s ways. God chooses to abort so many potential humans in the womb and he see it as God’s way, right Mark? God doing nature, right? Or do you blame Adam for all miscarriage?
Atheists do not all agree when the fetus matures to a status we call a human being but those folks who take the fundamentalist Christian stance do not see how far-reaching their condemnations are, including their God who is by far the most murderous entity of all creation (and that record made in just the Old Testament!)
I am humanist, I guess, for the most part and believe the least harmful course in this matter is bodily autonomy. We are the masters of the body we are…. no other has the right to usurp that autonomy. I speak generally of course because there are a million possible variables in life. Jeff Maples is a variable, a human being so damaged he has been rendered harmful. Stay well clear of him.
Brian, you talk about playing God. God is good and just and we are not.
Welp, you are talking to atheists, agnostics, and other non-Christians, so saying God is just and good won’t work with us.
Further, explain God’s love, goodness, and justice in light of Genesis 7-9. God killed every living thing on earth save eight people and the animals on the ark. Those murdered by God included babies, children, fetuses, and zygotes. By all means, defend your view of God in light of these Biblical facts. Since most “abortions” are miscarriages, God is the biggest abortionist on planet earth. In light of these things, how is God good and just?
Now that comment is on sinking sand. God killed those people because he knew they would never change, but the rainbow is His promise that He would not do anything like that again. (Too bad the gay community has hijacked the rainbow to be a symbol of their pride in something they should be ashamed but that’s another story.
By the way, the people he killed had been born. If we do that, we go to jail. Why don’t abortionists go to jail? They should.
Thanks for not answering my questions.
It’s time for you to move on Mark. You’ve Ben given every opportunity to meaningfully interact with the readers of this blog. Instead, you continue to make lame anti-abortion comments, and now you’re on to anti-LGBTQ comments. Dude, your Evangelicalism is showing. I’m sure you’ll take that as a compliment. Trust me, it’s not.
Ah, there it is, the tell. You believe LGBTQ people are an abomination. Should they also be killed or jailed? Maybe they should be re-educated to think properly like you?
Christians are among the worst people I encounter. Like you, they insist their view is right, and no one should stand against it. If needed, laws should be passed to force everyone to comply.
How odd from people who claim their god values free will. If free Will is good enough for your god, the why isn’t it good enough for you?
Why do you have such a strong desire to dictate to others how they live? Why can’t you go do your life and leave others to live theirs?
Mark, do you believe in hell? If so, do you believe that your alleged god both created the place and allows it to continue to exist? Do you believe that it can sense the agony of sentient beings imprisoned in hell, but makes a deliberate choice to leave them there to suffer for eternity?
If so, you worship an infinitely evil and infinitely unjust god, and calling such a monster “good and just” is truly risible.
God wouldn’t have had to create Hell if Satan and his minions hadn’t rebelled against God.
Doesn’t the Bible say that who would and wouldn’t be saved was predetermined from before foundation of the world? Hint, it does. Thus, God knew who was going to Hell before Adam and Eve were created.
No, hell is just a failure of morality (and imagination and common sense) on the part of your alleged god. No matter how heinous a crime, it is done in the context of time – therefore, for genuine justice to prevail the punishment may not surpass the magnitude of the offence.
The presence of even one sentient being in a state of eternal punishment automatically makes the punisher infinitely evil.
Why do you worship an infinitely evil god, Mark?
Take it up with your God, Mark. Omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. He set it all in motion.
Mark, your problem is, as it with all those who are anti-choice (I won’t flatter them with the misnomer pro-life), how do you accommodate those who disagree with you? The starting point for ‘abortion is murder’ is that you have to overturn every cultural norm, not just in the US but in the entire world. You see, birth is universally accepted as the beginning of life (birth certificate, country of birth etc) and it’s only been a recent political contrivance by self interest that has even begun to spread the idea that life begins at conception. So by all means, change laws, change cultural attitudes, change to country of conception on which to base nationality, and you begin to be able to start producing a law rendering abortion murder, and whilst we move back to the Middle Ages how about burning witches once more?
Even then, it’s back to my first question of how to accommodate those who disagree? It’s at this stage the anti-choice people begin trying to invoke science, and that is when the paucity of their case becomes apparent, because science has nothing to say on the subject as to when life begins, which is entirely philosophical. If it’s a philosophical discussion then there’s only one solution, and that’s to offer women the right to choose whether to abort. You are free to choose not to abort your own foetus (but being a man you will never have to face this personally), but you don’t have the right to force your choice on others. The Supreme Court appears to be making a colossal mistake that I think will be reviled by historians to come. And abortion can never be murder.
“Brian, you talk about playing God. God is good and just and we are not.”
which version of this god? Oh yes, Christians can’t agree on what it wants, so you all make it up in your image.
Alas, any cult claims its god and its idea are “good and just”. Just like any cultist, Mark can’t show that his are.
This is the inevitable end game for the anti choice crowd. During the early stages in their quest to outlaw abortion they advocated punishment for anyone involved in enabling an abortion including doctors, friends and Uber drivers but the woman herself was exempted from punishment. This was clearly calculated to advance their cause. But now that the Supreme Court decision is all but a done deal the gloves will come off and we will see hatred and retribution directed towards women who seek bodily autonomy.
Here’s something I don’t understand: Folks like Jeff Maples say that abortion is murder because, in essence, it’s not “God’s will.”
Well, before modern medicines and surgeries, many people died from illnesses, accidents or simply reaching their body’s limits because “God wanted them.”
So…Are Edward Jenner, Louis Pasteur, Daniel Hale Williams, Alexander Fleming, Jonas Salk, Christian Baarmard and all who use the knowledge and techniques they developed guilty of going against “God’s will?”
MJ, it’s that slippery slope, isn’t it, toward the direction of those who are against any and all medical intervention as the intervention may thwart God’s will. It’s like the Fundamentalist Prime Directive. I want to joke about it, but it seems that the US is turning upside down now. Right-wingers are increasingly anti-education and anti-science, which leads me to think we are only a few years away from a majority of them becoming anti-medicine (meaning the practice of medicine, not just the use of pharmaceuticals). Most right-wingers already don’t believe medical care is a human right but instead should be reserved for those whose employers provide it, or those who can pay for it themselves. I am basically under the impression that just about any regression is possible these days.
Mark, First of all, I don’t believe in a god or a devil and the Adam and Eve story makes zero sense Neither do most of the parables in the bible. How many apple pies have you consumed in your life? How many apples have YOU eaten? Did god suddenly do away with the rule of not eating from the “tree of knowledge”? I’d also like to know why we no longer have talking snakes? It’s all nonsense.
Sickness is caused by viruses, bacteria and fungi and various conditions are caused by gene mutations and defects, lifestyle choices, environmental factors, etc. So, who created all the imperfections of the world, according to you and your logic? God? But, I thought he was perfect in all things? Seems illogical to conclude he isn’t culpable for causing spontaneous abortion or ALLOWING rape, murder, genocide and incest to happen and babies to be born with just a brain stem or holes in their hearts. “How dare me” blame a non-existent being for creating death and destruction?
I was simply using the Christian logic you folks employ as a basis for my argument. I don’t really blame an entity I don’t believe exists, although I used to. I never understood how a loving “creator” would create imperfection and taunt “his people” for their lifetimes, forcing them to submit to his authority while allowing murderers and rapists to roam free on this earth. That’s not very loving nor is it logical to allow evil to exist, if this god is so powerful. In my opinion; it’s all hog wash and I stopped believing the fairy tale several years ago.
To all the trolls who have attacked me. You are free to believe whatever you like but I refuse to believe there is no God. I will admit I do not have all the answers (which is why I seemed to be avoiding answering questions) but abortion is not it. I agree incest and rape are terrible things and no woman should have to endure it but I don’t see why we should punish the child for the crimes of the father and there are many women who agree with me and other men. Some of those women have been in that situation but kept the child and are glad they did and the child in turn is happy to be alive. There are quite possible a million people walking down your street who were conceived as a result of rape but if you murdered them now you’d go to jail. So what have they got that unborn babies don’t? Anyway, that is all I have to say on the subject.
Trolls who attacked you? Really? I mean really?
You were asked numerous pointed, straightforward questions. You chose to either ignore or not answer these questions (most likely because you have no answers).
You said, “There are quite possible a million people walking down your street who were conceived as a result of rape.” Do you have any evidence for this fantastical claim of yours? That is a rhetorical question. Of course you don’t.
You are a zygote worshipper. Driven by religious dogma, you demonize anyone who believes differently, saying we are murderers. How the fuck are we supposed to find any common ground with you since, logically, you believe we should be arrested and imprisoned or executed.
You will not find a receptive audience on this site. We value science and reason, not religious dogma. You don’t seem open to hearing any other voice but the one in your head, so it’s time for you to move on (second request). I have no patience for zealots, be they Evangelicals, anti-abortionists, Trumpists, racists, or anti-LGBTQ.
I wish you well. And I hope to Loki that no female in your life ever has to face the consequences of your abhorrent theology.
BTW, the discussion is about abortion, not God. More than a few atheists are pro-life.
Mark, you are the troll here. You come to an atheist/agnostic/non-religious blog and start spouting your religious and political nonsense, insisting we are wrong, you are right and we are all going to a non-existent hell. You insist women who have abortions, no matter the situation, are murderers. You made claims purporting “rainbows are god’s promise” and Adam and Eve eating an apple or fruit or whatever metaphor is implied with that fairy tale, is true and the root cause of all the evil in the world. You insist Satan and his minions are the reason god made hell. You believe the LGBTQ community are all evil sinners destined to be judged by this fake bully and his side-kick, Jesus (or they are one in the same, I was never sure about that myself) You targeted me, in particular in response to my comment to you.
I want you to know-I have been bullied enough by people like you, even prior to me turning against religion and I’ve had enough of it. HOW DARE YOU, MARK, come to this site uninvited and of your own accord and accuse any of us as being trolls! Typical gaslighting Evangelic behavior and reason enough to stay very far away from your form of tyrannical religion and people like you. Closed minded religious zealots who can’t answer simple questions when asked-Like what happened to talking snakes?
BTW…rainbows are NOT a promise from god. They are light with different wavelengths being refracted when it hits rain drops. We’ve known this for a very long time, but one would have to drop the fanciful stories and embrace science to know.
Mark, forcing a woman to bear a rapist’s offspring is an unspeakably horrible burden. I could never be in the “some of those women…kept the child and are glad they did” group – I believe that all traces of a rapist’s DNA should be literally annihilated at the earliest possible opportunity to sever any potential familial tie between the criminal and his victim. (I’ll spare you the details of what I would deem a suitable punishment for the rapist himself.)
By the way, how many unwanted children do you financially support at the moment? (For reference, the annual cost for one U.S. child is approximately $12K per year.)
Mark: “Lacy, how dare you blame God for the evil things people do? He is no more to blame for that than he is for Adam and Eve eating the fruit that he had told them not to eat.”
Zoe: Is Lacy blaming a God she doesn’t believe in? No. She’s asking you questions about your God. Mark, your God according to your story (theologically) knew they’d eat the fruit. He knew they’d disobey. Why is that my conclusion? He claims omniscience. Your God according to your belief system, set it in motion. Is this not something you should take up with you and your God?
Like Lacy, I too have seen babies (to use your terms) who were aborted naturally. Typically referred to as miscarriages. In the O.R. we called them, complete and or incomplete abortions. Usually, the baby had already died or was in the process of dying because the mother was hemorrhaging.
With the changes that appear to be happening in the U.S. currently, there is a good chance that a woman who is hemorrhaging to death during a miscarriage would be denied a D & C (abortion) and literally die as a result of refusal to remove the baby, even if the baby has already died.
I am one of those mothers who would have died if denied the removal of the contents of my failed pregnancy. The baby had already died, the umbilical contents were in a cup I used to catch some of the contents that were expelled from my uterus. By the time I reached medical help I was hemorrhaging, pale white, and in shock. I would have died if the contents of my uterus had not been removed. So technically I wouldn’t have been around to get charged with murder.
Mark: ” I agree incest and rape are terrible things and no woman should have to endure it but I don’t see why we should punish the child for the crimes of the father …”
Zoe: I agree. We should not punish the child for the crimes of the father. The father violated the child, she is pregnant and now she is the one that is being forced to carry that conception to term.
She’s a child. She’s 10. I met her during my time of volunteering at a home for unwed mothers.
She’s 10 years old. One could surmise with almost complete accuracy that she was raped and it was incest. Doesn’t have to be a father.
She’s in an unwed home because those who were responsible for providing a home of safety, have put her out of the home.
She walks with her head down, totally frozen in her trauma. Developmentally, physically and emotionally it’s likely she’ll not get the help she needs during her stay in the home or after she delivers. She will face life-long consequences as a result of her rape and incest. Keep in mind, it’s highly likely in a case of incest, that it started long before the age of 10.
I think about her coming to term and delivering the baby. She’s 10.
Likely her pelvis is not mature enough for the baby to pass through the birth canal. It’s likely she will have major surgery and a C-Section in order to deliver the baby safely and keep the mother (she’s 10) from life-long acute and chronic complications.
During a vaginal delivery, she would likely tear and need countless stitches. It’s likely some of her abdominal contents, the bladder and bowel would prolapse. Her abdominal muscles during the pregnancy would be stretched beyond what they should be. She’s 10.
She’s 10 and she’s the one being punished and you want to charge her with murder should she opt instead to have an abortion?
Zoe–I wonder whether someone like “Mark” would be changed by witnessing what you’ve described. After all, many men, whether or not they’re Evangelicals, might agree that rape and incest are terrible but only think of them abstractly. And, of course, they can’t understand what it’s like to carry or birth a baby, whether or not it was forced on them. (I admit, as a trans woman, I can’t fully understand such things, either. All I can comprehend is the terror of being sexually abused and assaulted, as I have been.)
I think it’s possible MJ. It is unlikely I believe that they would find themselves in a position of witnessing though.