According to Wintery Knight, an Evangelical blogger and apologist, there are four major reasons people leave Christianity and become atheists:
They want to do something immoral with impunity. This type of person wants to do something immoral that is forbidden by Christianity, like pre-marital sex or getting drunk in clubs with friends. They dump Christianity in order to have freedom to seek happiness in this life.
They want to make decisions based on their emotions, rather than wisdom. This type of person thinks that God’s job is to save them when they act irresponsibly. When God disappoints them by not make their recklessness “work out”, they leave the faith.
They want to be loved by people, not by God. This type of person thinks that Christianity is a tool that they can use to become popular. When they first try to articulate the gospel in public, they find that people don’t like them as much, and they feel bad about offending people with exclusive truth claims that they cannot back up using logic and evidence. So, they water down Christianity to get along with non-Christians. Finally, they jettison Christianity completely. This happens to a lot of young Christians the moment they hit college/university.
They don’t want to learn to defend their faith. This type of person is asked questions by skeptics that they cannot answer. Usually, this happens when people go to university after growing up in the shelter of the Church. The questions and peer pressure make them feel stupid. Rather than investigate Christianity to see if it’s true, they drop it, so they can be thought of as part of the “smart” crowd.
Sigh (please see Why I Use the Word “Sigh”).
Let’s see, I have been married for forty-three years and I’ve never fucked anyone but my wife. I have no “secret” desires to sin. In fact, I suspect my godless life is quite Christian. Outside of my use of swear words, my TV viewing habits, and my love of whiskey, I am as moral and ethical as any Christian (not a very high standard, to be sure). Does Wintery Knight really want to get in a dick measuring contest to see who is more moral and ethical? (Please see the Black Collar Crime Series.) Wintery Knight thinks that Evangelicals-turned-atheists wanted to fuck with impunity (remember, it’s always about sex for Evangelicals) and that’s why they deconverted. Is that how it was for you? We can only wish, right? 🙂
Wintery Knight says Evangelicals-turned-atheists made decisions based on emotion, and when these decisions didn’t work out, they blamed God and deconverted. Was that the case for any of you? And let me be clear, all decisions are emotion-based. Humans are emotional creatures. “Wisdom” is a word used by Evangelicals to describe “thinking as God thinks” or “making decisions according to the Bible.” Atheists understand that we make the choices we do because we want to. Sometimes these decisions work out, sometimes they don’t. That’s life. I am almost sixty-five years old. I have made thousands of decisions in my lifetime. Good, bad, and indifferent. Unlike my wife, Polly, I have little problem making decisions. I spent most of my life working management-level jobs. Decision-making was expected of me. I have made some colossal mistakes over the years. Just ask Polly. 🙂 At no time as a Christian did I ever blame God when things didn’t turn out as I expected. (I asked WHERE was God in the post Dear Jesus, but I never blamed God for anything. I was a Calvinist, after all. Everything in my life was decreed by God, including my deconversion.) 🙂
Wintery Knight thinks Evangelicals-turned-atheists viewed Christianity as a way to become popular. Really? I mean, really? Does this remotely resemble your experience? Wintery Knight goes on to apply the slippery slope argument to Evangelicals-turned-atheists. We tried “to articulate the gospel in public,” found out [unsaved] people didn’t like us as much [duh, who likes someone who (unsolicited) interjects religion and politics in social settings?], and felt bad about offending people. So, we watered down Christianity to get along with unbelievers, and finally we “jettison [ed] Christianity completely.” I don’t know of one Evangelical-turned-atheist who would say Wintery Knight’s claim is true.
And finally, Wintery Knight says that Evangelicals-turned-atheists didn’t want to learn how to defend the faith; that they felt stupid when asked questions by unbelievers; so they deconverted so they could be considered part of the “smart crowd.”
Evidently, Wintery Knight hasn’t talked to many, if any, Evangelicals-turned-atheists. Most of the former Christians who read this blog are actually quite conversant in all things Christianity. They read and studied the Bible for years. In my case, I read the Bible from cover to cover numerous times. I spent thousands and thousands of hours reading and studying the Bible — roughly twenty hours a week. All told, I preached 4,000 sermons. I can safely say that I know the Bible inside and out. And I can say the same for the ex-Evangelical pastors, evangelists, missionaries, youth directors, worship leaders, college professors, and deacons, to name a few, who frequent this site. We left Christianity with full knowledge and eyes wide open.
Go read the full text of Wintery Knight’s screed on his site. His attempt to take down Dan Barker, a former Evangelical pastor and co-president of the Freedom of Religion Foundation, is a hoot.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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No
No
Really? I hadn’t heard that one before, but No
Also no
How about you actually ask us why we left?
Your cartoon explains it better than did WK. To be fair, thought, the hypocrisy of Christians also gave me a push.
If WK actually had enough faith to follow the teachings of Jesus — the “love your neighbor” and the “turn the other cheek” parts, for example, then he would not have made those false accusations of atheists.
Honestly? I came to the conclusion that Christians weren’t really about the love of God, but making people restrict their behavior for no good reason. We had a bad, bad experience with church many years ago, and we could have so easily been caught…if Christians were really about unconditional love. When I figured out that my gay relative had true love for their spouse, I saw where kindness and love were coming from…and it wasn’t from fundamental Christians. Well, if there are (almost) no Christians with Christ’s love, then what was the point? Most of the loud Christians who come here are either smug and self-righteous, or crazy and spewing threats of hell. I don’t see the love of god in ANY OF THESE PEOPLE, ANYWHERE.
I’d readily turn to Christianity if it had any intellectual appeal. The reality is it doesn’t. If Wintery Knight (seriously?) were to engage Dan Barker in debate he’d be destroyed, so he’s forced to write articles that appeal only to his, very limited, fanbase.
WK is one of the dullest knives in a box of dull knives. He’s a great example of the failed apologist who finds he must lie to try to convince people he is right, and thus demonstrates he has no more interest in what his god supposedly commands than I do.
4 reasons people remain in religions:
1. fear ______ (pick their poison)
2. fear ______ (pick their poison)
3. fear ______ (pick their poison)
4. fear ______ (pick their poison)
Bonus.
5. They are not given the capacity to apostate. Their spirit is willing, but their flesh is weak.
“They feel bad about offending people with exclusive truth claims that they cannot back up using logic and evidence.”
Nah! You don’t offend me with your truth-claims that you can’t back up with logic and evidence. I just laugh at you. Or I would, if you weren’t simultaneously trying to take away my bodily autonomy as a woman.
Wintery Knight is just a typical relight wing blogger. His piece on Dan Barker show no depth, no understanding and shallow analysis. I doubt this dude is aware of much less read any of Dan’s book. And WK, Dan is a co-president of FFRF, he is not a founder. Guys like this who obsess about what the rest of us do in bed are the ones with issues.
Before “Wintery KNIGHT” engages in “combat”, he should apply a bit of Sun Tzu, and “know your enemy” FIRST.
• Christianity allows one to act with impunity, you confess the sin on Sunday, and next Friday night it is off to the races again.
• “decisions based on their emotion”? What is the emotional payoff for dismissing the heavenly genie and afterlife fantasy?
• “loved by people, not by God” Another absurdity, atheists have always been generally unpopular with the religious majority. Madelyn Murry O’Hare wasn’t the “most hated woman in America” for nothing.
• “learn to defend their faith”, this one make me laugh, by this he means stick your fingers in your ears sing “Mary had a little lamb” and succumb to the bliss of ignorance.
“What is the emotional payoff for dismissing the heavenly genie and afterlife fantasy?” If anything, acceptance of a heavenly genie is heavily driven by emotion – fear of death, guilt and shame deliberately instilled in followers, the emotional rush from a religious experience, love-bombing of would-be converts…
I wonder why people who, in all likelihood have never met an atheist, tell us what our motivations are.
I do remember when I stopped believing (or pretending to believe). I was 13 and I was furious because “they lied to me.” That’s all I can remember. None of this evangelical claptrap was involved. It was a reaction to being lied to about something I thought was important.
I think they lie about our motivations to hide the fact that we have lots of excellent reasons for not believing, and to make us look like hedonistic creeps.
They might want to read that “Thou shalt not bear false witness” commandment a few times, till they clue in to the fact that lying about other people isn’t okay with their imaginary sky daddy.
I don’t entirely know what I am as far as a specific label of ‘belief’ is concerned anymore, as I’ve had some ‘personal stuff’ happen since I last posted here. I can tell you that I just got done with some rather heated discussions on FaceBook, where all of the religious whackjobs, with their tyrannical bully ‘god’ in tow are condemning Naomi Judd to hell as it’s now come out, courtesy of her daughter Ashley, that she did in fact take her own life. I’m sure as fuck not ever going back to any form of organized/ institutionalized religion….that much is for DAMN sure!!!-
https://disntr.com/2022/05/11/russell-moore-assures-christians-that-those-who-commit-suicide-are-still-in-gods-grace/
I am starting to think that the definition of “gaslighting “ is “the Evangelical practice of imputing immoral and nefarious behaviors, motives and ideas to atheists, agnostics, secular humanists, Unitarians and others who do not accept their claims and beliefs.”
The funny thing is that WK actually isn’t very good at it .
Not an atheist, but I can give it a shot. These are four concise counterpoints to WK from my own perspective.
“They want to do something immoral with impunity.” Some of the most immoral people I knew were Christians, or at least the kind that profess for clout’s sake. They could do whatever they wanted because they were saved and believed they could get their slates clean with one little apology. One of the reasons my family and I left was because we were seen as immoral for being a blended family. I didn’t know loving someone who got out of an abusive relationship was immoral, as well as being a father figure to a child whose father didn’t step up to the challenge. If anything, my current faith compels me to be more upstanding than I was as a Christian. I can now voice my distaste for questionable things that as a Christian I would have been forced to support.
“They want to make decisions based on their emotions, rather than their wisdom.” As Bruce pointed out, we are emotional by nature, and this goes into how we value our reasoned decisions. Logos and pathos might not be the same, but they do play tennis. My time as a Christian was somewhat hollow and fraught with anxiety about hellfire and following the right denomination. I also realized that the Augustinian original sin doctrine, along with taking Paul’s writings seriously, is bananas on the mildest terms. I followed my logic, and it took me out of Christianity.
“They want to be loved by people, not by God.” Three things up with this one. First, Christianity is literally the biggest religion in the world. The Vatican is not a shack by any stretch. Second, I am very hesitant about people finding out I’m not a Christian anymore. That is because I fear rejection from people close to me. I’m playing it safe for now. Last thing: I hardly felt loved by God as a Christian. I felt He had a chart of “days this chump hasn’t screwed up” for me, and it was constantly resetting because I did one thing wrong. The rhetoric behind “Sinners at the Hands of an Angry God” was very present during my Christian school days, and it left an impact on my self-esteem and self-perception.
“They don’t want to defend the faith.” Pee-yew, that’s a putrid claim! I studied hard to be a good apologetic, but I ended up being a mouthpiece for other people. Like Bruce, I took Bible studying seriously, and that was when I started having serious questions. I asked hard questions and got lackluster answers that were (shock!) based more on emotion than reason. How could I defend something I frequently questioned? Why would I follow something that made me more confused and uncertain as I studied it more?
Sorry for rambling, but this one got my gears turning for a while.
SDE
I am a Christian, but I don’t use the term as loosely as I feel it is used today. To elaborate on that, the previous post by Edmister suggests the Christianity is the largest religion in the world. Nothing wrong with the statement, but I would amend that to fake Christianity is the largest religion in the world. If its about how you dress, how well you hide a messed up life, the activities you do for the approval of others, then congratulations, you are serving religiously. You are so set that if you follow a process of actions that it will lead to a better life and forgiveness and eternal life. That’s all fake.
Why am I here of all places? I found my way here actually because I had a random idea pop into my head on a funny comic strip idea of an atheist, agnostic, and a Christian. Maybe if I ever get it drawn up, I’ll share it. My browsing of other comic strips led me here, perhaps not by accident or coincidence. While I could probably throw out some notion that I was led here to give beautiful insight to those poor lost souls out in the world living without Jesus, it’s probably more likely that I am being reminded of my human nature and to be kind and, while perhaps funny, the idea behind my comic could be offensive and fall in line with thing that I attest. So with, introductions out of the way, I’ll join into a critique of the four reasons above:
1 – “They want to do something immoral with impunity” – First, I second what Edmister said. For the above mentioned fake Christians, I don’t think it is uncommon for the immorality to be there, so why would they need to leave. I mean, everything is fixed on Sunday and then you go out and do all the wrong things again. No, they probably left because of the hypocrisy of others claiming to be Christians and living a moral life and yet being immoral and unkind.
2 – “They want to make decisions based on their emotions, rather than their wisdom.” – This statement shows a lack of understanding of the people the author is talking about and the people the author supposedly identifies with. If you are human, you have emotions and nothing good comes from ignoring them. Acknowledging them, dealing with them, that’s the goal. Following every emotion is a bad way to live, agreed, but the author is at fault for following his own advice, namely in that he relied on “their wisdom”, thus his argument shows his lack of understanding. If I had to rephrase this to even a true statement, it would have to be “rather than GOD’s Wisdom”. Biblically we are reminded time and again to NOT lean on our own understanding and wisdom. Actually, I think a well-studied atheist may offer quite intelligent, debatable reasons for their belief system and thus the statement is really nothing more than offensive to those who were guided by their reasoning.
3 – “They want to be loved by people, not by God.” – This one is probably right, especially if they are in some church that is so legalistic and false and abusive and unloving as is previewed in the above “reasons”. Again, the author’s lack of understanding is great. Sorry to make another bible reference, I read it was a no-no, but it seems to fit when arguing against these statements, Jesus stated the great two commandments as love your neighbor as yourself and love God with all your heart. I’ve come to understand, that means its my personal belief (yeah I have those as opposed to being sworn in to certain doctrines), that these are the basic needs of people. Yeah, they tell you food, water, shelter, but I don’t see it that way. I think love is the true basis, we need to love and be loved by God, and love and be loved by people. Anyway, back to the statement, yeah, a lot of people leave because they realize they aren’t winning a popularity contest. But probably just as many, if not more, leave because they don’t want to be part of the popularity contest already there.
4 – “They don’t want to defend the faith.” – There is some truth to the claim here, and they may be even in the ballpark that it might be a top reason. I think there is a position that people drop their faith pretty quickly because to be honest their faith sucks. Their faith is based on what they’ve been told and touchy feely crap and fake Christianity garbage and image and all that other trash. They are not taught historical proof, they are not taught the significance of their belief properly, and ultimately are not taught how to defend their faith.
[Continuing because I hit the posting size limit… See what I get for writing Novels]
You start with a false premise: people who leave Christianity and become atheists are “fake” Christians. I know scores of Evangelicals-turned-atheists. Not one of them were false or fake Christians.
That’s not how I read James Hall.
I took him as saying that many of the people who call themselves “Christian” are actually fake Christians. His “fake” attribution wasn’t about atheists. It was about the hypocrisy that we so often see among church members.
I took his “fake” claim to mean those who were once Christians and are now atheists. No “real” Christian would ever become an atheist.
As Neil stated, I’m pointing out the hypocrisy in the church, not talking about atheists there.
[Chunk 2 – reasons to not get a novelist in a discussion]
Having read Knight’s article to the end, I have some agreement on his last statement. Don’t blame God for the consequences of your bad decisions. However, I think I would add to that, don’t let people, especially fake Christians, tell you who God is. Don’t hate God because of what some people that claim to follow Him do. Overall, his statements are insensitive and highly assumptive and accept no responsibility of the people in the church doing things wrong or hurting people. Unfortunately, I think there are a number of churches that do hurt people, just as there are a number of churches who follow what is easy, or that the appearance of having it all together is the goal.
Bruce,
I’ve read what you shared about yourself in some other posts. What a tough childhood. You had to go through things a kid shouldn’t have to go through. I’m sorry you had to go through that, especially losing your mom to suicide. That’s horrible! I could be totally off-base, but it seems like church might have become an escape, something that you could focus on to distract from the pain of your childhood. When you transitioned out of church, what changed? I understand that you might have that buried in the many other posts, but unfortunately don’t have time to dig that out right now. Did it gradually fade away or was there a particular event or set of events that really set that change in motion?
Thanks for sharing your story. I really value being open like that and, to be honest, I could probably learn a lot from you simply because you aren’t hiding anything. I love to truly understand the thinking behind people with different beliefs than me, sharing stories, and forming what others might think of as unlikely friendships. So I hope you don’t kick me out of here because I’m a Christian, I don’t think I’ve broken too many rules just yet.
So it is hardly fair for me to read about you and leave nothing of my own story. I’ll try to keep this short, my first rendition of my testimony was 27 pages long haha. I’d have to start my own blog to share it all! I grew up in church on and off. My family went sometimes, I went to friends churches sometimes. I formed a basic belief and “got saved” as it is called. I cringe at that statement now. Like one prayer about asking Jesus into your heart suddenly secures your place in heaven. However, I don’t recall going to any churches that were judgmental or legalistic, but I was just an oblivious kid most of the time, so maybe I just didn’t see those when I was there.
My father was a drug addict and my mom left him when I was a baby. I got to grow up feeling rejected by not only him, but also by step-dads that always made me feel second place. Self-worth issue were present, but were made worse by being sexually molested by a relative, bullied at home, and bullied at school. I remember being chased home one day by a kid with a broken beer bottle trying to stab me with it. Before I hit puberty, I was already finding escape in sexual fantasies and acting out. I had an abnormal sexual interest in my male friends. I became an adrenal junkie that always ended in a “happy ending”. Exhibitionism and voyeurism followed me from the age of 11 to the age of 30. I realized I didn’t have much control over these temptations and tried to stop these behaviors by lowering my drive for them, seeking masturbation as a release from any thoughts the moment they occurred. Well, that eventually became a big problem. I married a country girl, had 2 kids, and surprise surprise, these issues didn’t go away. When my wife was on bed rest with cervical stitches, I was vegging out on porn and the rare video chats with other guys. My wife was an amazing woman, I’d never been with anyone else, she’d never been with anyone else, and being faithful to her was important to me. But I also wanted an affair. Some surgeries and things led to a temporary period where my wife libido plummeted. That’s all that was need for me to form a false belief that she didn’t desire me. That was the start of a 2 year period of being a dysfunctional sex addict. It became THE issue in our marriage and a cause of a growing depression in me. Eventually, it came to a head and my wife kicked me out. It took that for me to realize that my lust and desire for sexual satisfaction/adventure were going to cost my marriage.
James: ” I understand that you might have that buried in the many other posts, but unfortunately don’t have time to dig that out right now.”
Zoe: James, do you know how much “time” Bruce has invested in his blog? You don’t have time? Seriously? You want Bruce to dig out information for you because you don’t have the time? You took a lot of time to compose these comments.
Right on his front page he has links to the not so “buried” posts that might help you understand. He has an “About” page. He has a “Why?” page. He has a “Dear Evangelical page.” And others. Hopefully that helps you do some digging.
Thank you. ❤️ I even pay $10 a month for advanced search functionality on this site. Seek and ye shall find.
You nailed me there. Man I can’t believe I really said that. Not that I’m not busy, because I am, but nothing screams “I am a self-important jerk” like saying I’m too busy for this, can you do this for me. I think asking the question would have been quite enough. I did read a number of pages, just didn’t happen upon that. Reasons why I should proofread, which I didn’t, and consider alternative interpretations that what I was saying, which I didn’t. I’ve recently hit a new level of busy in my life and I really need to not let the list of the things I need to do disrupt my focus on what is in front of me. Everything I posted in these blobs was laden with “I’m busy”. Major facepalm.
[Chunk 3 – yep, there is more]
That was my bottom. I realized I had allowed sex to become the most important thing in my life. I was in a whirlwind of fear of losing my marriage after 10 great years and not understanding how I could change, especially in regards to my attraction to men. I went to work that next day, into the office even (horrible idea by the way). I ended up breaking down on a co-worker. He took me outside on the balcony and talked my emotions down and offer some comfort. A while later, I had to step out there again. A storm had rolled up suddenly and rain was beating against the building. I was lost in thoughts about if I could completely shove out sexual desire forever and get my marriage back. Then there was a flash, and a thunderous boom and there on the third story, I felt the whole building shake. God had my attention, I thought “You must be so angry with me.” But then there thought response in my head that wasn’t mine. You can write it off as James talks to himself, but the ideas were too solid, too foreign to my thoughts and feelings at that moment. “No, look at how powerful I am, I can shake the foundations of the earth. What are your sexual issues before me? Surrender them to Me and I’ll give you back what is good.” I doubted for a moment, how did I know it wasn’t just my own thoughts, what proof do I have that it is really You God? “How about Genesis, you’ve read that much, I’ve been separating light from darkness since the beginning of time.” So I surrendered to Him in that moment. Fix me, I can’t. Then a plan unfolded before me that I look back on down and can’t chalk up to coincidence. The urologist appointment I had setup months prior to was the very next day. I had made the appointment convinced something was physically wrong with me. My wife showed up with me, the doctor took almost an hour out of his busy day talking with about sexual addiction, and mentioned a recovery program called Celebrate Recovery and recommended counseling. I went to my first recovery meeting the following evening.
Six and a half years later, I’m typing out my story here in an online space, probably for the first time… especially in that much detail… and of all place, an atheistic blog. I’ve got a few thoughts in there trying to tell me this isn’t a safe place, don’t share that with “these people” but to be honest, I’m not afraid and feel this kind of openness is one of the biggest missing pieces from today’s Christians. What I SHOULD be doing is getting my seminary homework done, that while I was reading got me thinking of this comic strip idea, which I’ve never drawn or made a comic strip before, but here we are. I’ve been on a long recovery journey, it was loaded with relapses with pornography and a few of temptations for an affair that were hard to turn down. I cry when I talk about this journey because I came to know a Father that was always with me, I never felt condemnation from Him. When I ran to Him, He would get me through the temptations, when I didn’t, I’d relapse. I began to notice His presence in a number of ways, but some of the most profound were when I was in temptation, opening up that Incognito browser session, when my computer would power down, or the internet would glitch for a moment, my browser would crash, or my wife would call. He’d be there, trying to slow me down a bit, remind me what I’d asked for in prayer, that I wanted to be free of addiction and lust. His message became clear to me, He would love me the same whether I did the right thing or the wrong thing, but He wanted for me better than what I wanted for myself. I remember one day about a year into the process having it set in my head that I was tired of sexual dreams about men and I was going to have an affair because that would make it stop. I made a connection on an app and had formulated a plan. I was shoving God away, I’d hardened my heart and didn’t want to hear from Him. But, He managed to get that one little thought in, “When you’ve wrecked your marriage and thrown away it all way for this, are you still going to push Me away?” Shattered that hardened heart, turned me away from it.
I debated for a while if I wanted to respond to this post (I know..not typical of me!) because this is just one man’s story, and I try to respect the stories of others, unless they blatant hateful or bigoted attitudes. I don’t necessarily see that here in this story, but I did read some troubling things that I just have to address.
Being gay, or having same sex attraction, is not a bad thing. Being gay is just a normal, every day, completely fine thing. Jame’s long speech has is meant to imply that being gay is evil.
James clearly says that being attracted to men is something to be fix. He uses terms like “abnormal sexual interest in my male friends”, and mentions going to a doctor because something was “physically wrong” with him. Every mention of attraction to men is followed by some statement that calls that wrong, abnormal, addiction, or some other term indicating that such feelings are a condition, or apparently just an addiction, to be cured.
Being gay is not an addiction. Being gay does not need a cure. There is nothing…nothing… absolutely nothing wrong with having such feelings and desires.
Then he mentions that his urologist told him about Celebrate Recovery? As a treatment for “lusting for men” and sexual addiction??????? What kind of urologist is sending a person to a Christian based program that is not under the direction of a doctor? Celebrate Recovery has a very, very troubling history. They are an addiction recovery program modeled after AA, very popular in fundamentalist churches, and are know to consider anything LGBTQIA+ as something they can treat in their program. In other words, if you are gay, or trans, or non-binary, or bisexual, you can go to this program and get treatment and help so you can “recover” from your “addiction”.
This program has also allegedly been involved in conversion therapy, a VERY dangerous, and in some cases, illegal, and most certainly abusive, program that caused untold pain and suffering for people who christians consider to be evil sinners who have desires their god can cure. I do not know the details of how Celebrate Recovery approaches same sex attraction. But I do know how churches, and preachers, view people like me. I understand how the teaching of a church, or pastor, or the “care” and “guidance “they give can be extremely harmful, very damaging, and lead to extreme self loathing and self hatred. And when that is how a person feels on a daily basis, and when that is supported and reinforced by people who “care”, then it can lead to a very dark or dangerous place. You don’t want to be near that darkness, because the outcome is not good.
I read in this “testimony” a sad story of a man abused by a religion, who has lived in self loathing and self hatred, and despite all he tried, he fails. I know in many cases, people like him go through good times where they are so close to their god, then they find their desires are still there, so strong, so overwhelming, and they go through cycles of “good” and “bad” times.
Been there, done that.
But here is the important part. If you find you have “temptations” to same sex attractions, or gender queer tendencies, or any other part of the LGBTQIA world, then you are perfectly normal. You are not evil, you are not broken, you do not have to be disgusted with yourself and get all upset at yet more failures. Why? Because you are human, and there is really nothing wrong with you. It isn’t you, its your church, which is narrow minded, hateful, and bigoted.
James example is not a safe one for anyone, not even him, in spite of his belief that his version of his god helps him overcome this supposed evil. There is nothing good that comes from this – it only leads to more trouble. True freedom when you can accept that what you were taught in your church when you were young (where you were indoctrinated from a very early age) about your sexuality or gender is just wrong. Your true freedom comes when you can break of of that hateful mindset and realize that you are just a normal human being and what you feel is normal. Its not evil, its not sinful, its not from the devil, it’s not due to original sin, or temptation, or anything else. Its simply due to being normal.
No one has to take James path. Many of us have found the true freedom in leaving this god belief behind us, and accepting who we are, and escaping from the guilt driven world of chrisianity where everyone is “broken”. Ironically, the “light” James talks about is actually darkness. And I escaped the darkness, and the chains that held me, and the bondage (not in a good way) that controlled me when I left christianity.
“long speech has is meant to imply that being gay is evil” – No, it’s not. It’s about a relationship with God improving my life across the board. Everyone here talks about what this church person did, or what that church person did. Well, the people in church are not God, they are fallible, and there is a disease of hypocrisy in the church. Ultimately, I just wanted to leave a different perspective than what I see available.
While it might be assumed that I was “abused by a religion”, that isn’t the case. I didn’t have people bashing me that the bible says being gay is evil. I felt no conviction in that. I mean holy crap, we are in the 21st century and plenty of people say it’s fine and I was often ready to believe them. What was ripping me apart had nothing to do with that. It had everything to do with loving my family and my wife. I have a good wife that was faithful to me while I lusted after everything else. I had children that I ignored being a better father too because I was more interested in what satisfied my crotch. Yes, there was some part of me that wanted to be loved and accepted by men, probably because I had been abused by them and molested as a child. And just so we don’t have to go there, none of the abuse or molestation came from church.
You also seemed to skip some behaviors I already list. Voyeurism and Exhibitionism. I didn’t list those just to sound fancy, but probably more or less to cover up the extent. I’d go into public bathrooms and try to spy out guys. No, not just a peep at the urinal, I’m a novelist, I’ve got novel ideas. No, I stuck my phone on record, attached it to my pants, and dropped them to the floor. I stared through holes in public showers for hours. I left my zipper down and my junk hang out at gas stations and in the work place. If this behavior is so normal, then why do they arrest people for this crap? Why do they get labeled as Sex Offenders and have to carry that around for their whole life?
Oh, and I ain’t done yet. There was worse shit in this guy. How about sexualizing animals? Have you ever wanted to screw your dog? You ever let them lick you to orgasm? Is that normal too? Should we add another letter to the acronym? Where do you draw the line? Are we going to eventually say that sexual interaction with animals or children is normal behavior too? Society wasn’t ready to accept the old me, at least not yet.
No, I didn’t accept a gay lifestyle. It was a choice, an open door into a lot of stuff that sounded like what I wanted. The price tag was my marriage and I didn’t want to pay it. When I realized that, I saw the truth of myself. I had believed that if I had that one sexual relationship with a man I wouldn’t want it anymore. But the truth is, had I allowed my marriage to been destroyed, I wouldn’t have had anything of value left in my life. I would have hopped from relationship to relationship devouring men like candy. I would have screwed everything I could have got my hands on. Objectifying men is healthy right? I would have turned to drugs to cope with the unbearable pain of throwing it all away. Is that a lifestyle I should have embraced? Would that have been healthy for me?
There is no such thing as being gay. It’s a choice, and also a choice of what you allow play out in the stage of your mind. I’m not saying that it’s anyone’s fault that people feel that attraction / confusion and I’m not saying your can’t choose it, and I’m definitely NOT saying it is easy, but nobody is born that way and it’s not something you are “meant to be”, although I felt years of pressure that it was. I just know it was the wrong choice for me. It would have be the completion of giving myself over to my jailer, lust.
I’m not too surprised to hear an occasional horror story from any church or church program. Suffice it to say that every raving lunatic that shoots up a school isn’t always going to be a trans-gender. There are people that want to hurt other people everywhere, it seems to be this broken state of man that wants to do what he wants to do no matter who it hurts. Sounds just like the old me. However, I had no hateful experiences in Celebrate Recovery or church, I’m sure that I’ll run into folks that have issues with my past, fine. Celebrate Recovery gave me hope because I knew I wasn’t alone, I had a place where I could talk about all these things, I could hear and see other men cry as they talked about people they hurt or people that hurt them. And after they heard the crap I’d done, they hugged me and said “I love you brother”. The love I found there and in my relationship with my Father not only eventually made the sexual desires toward men go away, but all that stuff. And somehow I can still say it was worth it to have this special relationship with God. I also have seen my marriage restored and get to give back by helping others work through the CR program and find their healing. CR has a rule, we don’t fix people. Nobody is supposed to tell someone what they need to do to be fixed or offer unsolicited advice to any of their problems.
James, the problem is not your [almost certainly imaginary] god.
It’s you. You’re a homophobe making excuses for why you’re not a homophobe. You’re equating the “gay lifestyle” with zoophilia and pedophilia.
You owe us all an apology. Not just the LGBTQIA+ (and allied) individuals who follow this site. All of us. For all your talk about “love,” it’s coming across very clearly as hate.
I almost banned him after he said that LGBTQ people aren’t “born” that way. I’m no prude, but I found his descriptions of his sexual behavior to be a bit much.
Thank you for responding to him.
Had a few more things. Thank you for responding. I still don’t see my response popping up yet, so maybe I’m on the “needs approval list”. I hope it does, I find this conversation a deep one and vastly important.
Nothing in my response was intended to be an attack on anyone, so I hope nothing comes across that way, and if it does, I’d be happy to clarify. I think I attacked the old me worse than anyone, but even then, only his actions, not his person.
Lastly, Sage, God loves you just as much as He loves me. No matter what you do or don’t do, or who you choose to be. If the church has failed to say that to you, I say it now.
Sorry James, but I can’t let you away with some of these assertions you are making.
You do seem to have had a problem with sex but, if I may make so bold, this is very common in environments where there is sexual repression, and I’m afraid fundamental Christianity is a major player. I don’t deny that counselling is probably helpful for people who have genuine problems in this area, though is unlikely to succeed if sexual repression is still in your system (which I think it is). It’s important, however, if you’re going to engage here honestly, that you come to accept that being gay is both real and normal. Note that; it’s normal. It’s not something to be ashamed of, or reversed by corrupt practices of the kind Celebrate Recovery advertise, and nor is being gay anything to do with ‘choice’. We don’t ‘choose’ our sexual orientation; if we could then heterosexual people could choose to be homosexual, and I’ve never heard a single case of this ever happening. Almost all species of animals have been found to contain substantial homosexual populations, so it isn’t limited to humans.
I might also say that bringing sex with animals into a conversation about LGBT issues is offensive, in the same way that low grade Christian apologists frequently invoke sex with children (the irony being that both of these deviations are far more frequent in heterosexuals) in their criticism of gay people. There’s a big difference. Sex both with animals or children, by definition, lacks consent, and is wrong for that reason. Sex between legally consenting people is not wrong. Oh, and yet more….even biblically there’s a strong case to be made that gay sex is not wrong!
James: “Lastly, Sage, God loves you just as much as He loves me. No matter what you do or don’t do, or who you choose to be. If the church has failed to say that to you, I say it now.”
Zoe: James, there is no doubt you are applying your new desire to “minister” here. You’ve got a story, a testimony, and believe you are now qualified to apologize here on behalf of the church that has failed us, all in the name of your God.
To point out your offense here will likely land on concrete with you as you believe you are called and do so in the name of your father, son and holy spirit. So you drop some God love-bombs without respect to the fact that there are those here who do not believe in your God.
Well, James, since you feel the need to judge me, and make assumptions about me, I don’t feel the need to be respectful any longer. You just hurl the same Christian bigotry but in your case, you really like to try to push that guilt knife deeper by telling us how you can overcome the evil gay desires and if we could too If we weren’t so lustful and seeking pleasure at every moment. You try your best to tear us down, throwing all kinds of shit our way, hoping to trigger a guilt ridden reaction that causes us to crash. And the. You can be there all loving and supportive to pick up pieces and fix us.
No,thanks. I see what you do and only speak out to prevent others from suffering the pain you would dump on them, or even worse, send them to the brink of a very evil precipice.
One might say it is very pretentious to assume your experience is the example LGBTQ people need to find your particular god. But in fact you are far worse. You use your story to induce self loathing and extreme guilt in other people, knowing that this may cause them to fall for your abusive form of religion. I have my opinions on why you do this, but I leave it to other readers to come to the obvious conclusion.
As for me, I am fine as I am. I have no need for abusive religion. You assume this abuse came from others, but it did not. I did not leave the church because of bad people. I did not leave the church because of people like you, who, I’m consider very misguided, judgmental, and hateful.
Would like to know why I left? Well I won’t be telling you because you have not shown any reason why you deserve to know my life story.
As Geoff pointed out, it is interesting that you are constantly combining gay with sexual deviancy. I find it telling that you managed to bring bestiality and sexual deviancy into the conversation about being gay. I think Geoff is right about repression and how it appears to impact you. And I agree with all he said
You need to understand that your personal experience has nothing to do with anyone else and certainly has nothing to do with gay men I know. That is all you.
I honestly feel sorry for you. I think you have a very painful path you are attempting to walk. And if even a portion of the things you admitted to here are true, you need to seek real, professional help outside of your church circle.
Lastly, “ Lastly, Sage, God loves you just as much as He loves me. No matter what you do or don’t do, or who you choose to be. If the church has failed to say that to you, I say it now.”
Um..wow…really?? So you try the old heart string manipulation tactic on me? All you need is a little Christian dirge playing in the background. I am sooo past that kind of manipulation. You need to understand something. I have no desire, none, zero, zilch, to be loved by your god or by people like you. I am very happy where I am today and am far better off than when I hated myself under gods guidance. I don’t believe your god exists. And if he did exist, he would be fucking evil bastard.
I prefer, instead, that you just leave me and others like me alone. Go off into your little club and talk about serving your god, and leave us to live our lives how we want, without your bigotry, manipulation, constant attempts to control us.
Roger that. Orientation isn’t the problem. The problem is predators. Unfortunately, there are predators in all orientations. As long as people don’t prey on others, a person’s orientation is no one else’s business.
[Chunk 4 – last one]
I’ve got to wrap this up, I’ve spent a lot of time on this, still have a lot of homework and a honey-do list to get done as well. I rarely struggle with lust today, my focus has been primarily on parenting, controlling anger, and managing fear of public speaking. My relationship with God is my greatest source of joy and peace and strength. I’m thankful for being so broken and messed up because it led me to realize my desperate need for God. I’m a computer programmer, live on a farm with 3 kids and my wife, and recently have experienced a deep and undoubted calling to become involved in ministry. My schedule is stuffed worse than a Thanksgiving turkey as I’ve picked up seminary classes on top of 4 different church programs a week that I’m learning a lot from. I like them to a degree, but I don’t agree whole-heartedly on a number of things. I’m just getting started, but the heightened focus on the inerrancy of the bible to me is silly. I believe in the inerrancy of a relationship with God, and no matter if someone wrote things down wrong or mistranslated the bible, I find all the guidance I need in my life from that relationship. What I want the most and why I’m in ministry is because I see a world in pain, lost like I was in self-love and different forms of addiction, lost in thinking their identity is in some label, and what I really want is to share this relationship with God that I have, that gives me peace and joy in my life. Anyways, this is long and I hope I didn’t break too many rules in being vulnerable and open, and I hope I didn’t misspell too much. While I’ve put it aside at this time, I enjoy writing novels and it bothers me to think I don’t have time to go back through and make corrections, but I’m going to resist the urge and hope most everything was clear! Ultimately, I hope that I have the opportunity to hang around and have more discussions, so I hope I don’t get banned!
Bruce said: “Evidently, Wintery Knight hasn’t talked to many, if any, Evangelicals-turned-atheists. Most of the former Christians who read this blog are actually quite conversant in all things Christianity. They read and studied the Bible for years.”
Yep, it took me over 45 years to finally kick the habit. Reading the Bible is the catalyst that sped up my deconversion. The more I read, the more obvious it became that Christianity was nothing but a money and control game.
James — now No Name Christian — asked me to remove all his comments. I can’t do that since it would destroy the discussion threads, so I changed His name to “No Name Christian.”