I recently watched a discussion between Alex O’Connor, an atheist, and Dr. Francis Collins, an Evangelical Christian and former Director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) on YouTube. You can watch the video here:
I have heard countless discussions, debates, arguments, and brawls over the existence of God. Eighteen years in, I’m no longer interested in the “God debate.” I have heard every possible defense of or “proof” for the existence of God. Many of these arguments try to establish the existence of a creator God, a generic deity of sorts that they posit is found in every culture and religion. Such discussions are largely philosophical masturbation, for which I have no interest. I will, at times, engage Evangelicals when they try to claim and prove that the generic deity I mentioned is actually the Christian God of the Bible. Such arguments miserably fail. Why? They rely on the Bible as proof for their claims. (I am using the words proof and prove in a colloquial sense. I know proof is a mathematical term, not a theological/philosophical one.) As a former pastor and theologian, I still enjoy discussing the Bible and theology, though I no longer have the stomach for WWE-style wrassling matches over minute points of dogma. That said, I have yet to have an Evangelical make a compelling argument for their peculiar God’s existence.
Even within the framework of the Bible, there are numerous gods, beginning with multiple deities in the book of Genesis to the insurmountable differences between the God of the Old Testament and the Son of God in the New Testament. There’s no such thing as a singular Christian deity. One could argue that there are more Christian gods than we can count, with each believer shaping his or her God in their own likeness. That’s why, when talking to Evangelicals about the existence of God, the first question to ask them is “How do you define God?” What are his qualities and attributes? Typically, no two Evangelicals will give you the same answer.
During O’Connor’s discussion with Dr. Collins, one idea came up several times; that the most important question any of us can ask is “Does God exist?” I suppose in atheist-Christian debating circles this might be true, but, for me personally, and I expect for many of you who read this blog, answering the question “Does God exist?” is not at the top of your list of important questions to answer. In fact, I suspect, for those of you who have always been atheists or deconverted years ago, the God question rarely crosses your mind, that is, unless a Christian zealot is in your face trying to get you to pay attention to his God and the importance of getting saved lest you die and end up in Hell.
The only time I even think about God is when I am writing an article for this site. Otherwise, God rarely crosses my mind unless I just stepped on a Lego left on the floor by one of my grandsons, leading to me uttering “God dammit” or “Jesus Christ.” I sure hope the Lord appreciates my worship. 🙂
Pondering deep philosophical questions is largely the domain of white, affluent westerners who have time and money to sit around pondering God’s existence and the meaning of life. For most people, their lives are focused on more pressing questions such as earning a living, providing for their family, renting/buying a home, putting food on the table, and making sure they have a running automobile or reliable transportation to get where they need to go. By the time working-class/middle-class people sit down at the end of the day, the last thing on their minds is the question, “Does God exist?
How about you? Is the “Does God exist?” question important to you? Or do you find such discussions boring, reminders of the endless chattering about theology during your days as a Christian? I wonder if I am alone with my indifference towards this question. I have reached a place in life where I simply no longer care. I have far more pressing issues that vex my soul, especially matters concerning my health, family, and economic well-being. Please share your pithy thoughts in the comment section.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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I watched this debate sometime back and have to say that I was very disappointed in Collins. He’s obviously a smart guy, very decent and polite, so I assumed he had much better reasons for believing in god than your average apologist. He didn’t, he really didn’t. He mentioned the fine tuning argument and similar debunked arguments, but failed to come up with anything new whatsoever. O’Connor performed well and attempted to draw him, but didn’t especially challenge him in the way he did Dinesh D’Souza.
As a sci-fi nerd, I am much more interested in the possibility of extraterrestrial life in the universe. I don’t care if there is a god, because obviously, if it exists, it doesn’t care about us.
The novel Star Maker comes to mind. The spirit of a human joins with alien spirits in search of the Star Maker, the creator of the universe. When they find him (it?) they see that the being has created and destroyed billions of universes, oblivious to the billions of sentient beings worshipping him. If there is such a being, I doubt it has humans as a top priority.
The whole question is a waste of time, especially with all the real problems waiting to be solved.
Whether or not a deity exists is not at the top of my List of Important Questions. The top of my list is as follows:
Are my family and friends safe and healthy?
Am I safe and healthy?
Am I treating others with respect and helping where I can?
However, I do know people who feel that having a deity is of utmost importance. These folks fall into a few groups. One group contains people who are older with health problems. They are hoping a deity will heal them, and they are hoping the deity provides a nice afterlife where they can be healed and enjoy relatives and friends (and pets) they have lost. The next group contains people who seem to have trouble making good choices and are frequently in trouble with the law and/or friends and family and/or employers. These folks are looking for a deity to set them on the right path, to give them strength to make better choices, and to provide clarity on what those choices involve. The next group contains people who crave order in the world, or who need to feel there is a plan or design for their lives and for the world. These folks tend to fear uncertainty, who feel overwhelmed, and are looking for a specific blueprint for How the World Should Work. They seem to think most humans except a few ordained by the deity are capable of making good choices and need the Strong Men and Deity to keep the Order of the Way Things Should Be.
Personally, I don’t see evidence for any of these deities. It’s quite a stretch, but POSSIBLY there could have been a Creator, but I don’t see evidence that it gets involved in the minutiae of individual lives. And I don’t see evidence of a creator deity either. I really don’t have an answer to Where Did Everything Come From. I don’t know the Genesis of the materials from which everything we know is composed. Does it matter? That’s a philosophical question to which there are many responses.
In my sphere of influence, it’s important to me to be respectful of others, help where I can, and show those I care about that they are important to me. Everything else is extra.
Bruce asked:
How about you? Is the “Does God exist?” question important to you? Or do you find such discussions boring, reminders of the endless chattering about theology during your days as a Christian? I wonder if I am alone with my indifference towards this question.
Answer:
NO, not in the context of the “existence of god”. What is important to me is how the USA and Western Societies in general continue to follow and believe in and adhere to the Cult of Religon and Judeo Christianity.
When I went to school, the “Enlightenment and the Renaissance” periods were taught. Students were led to believe the age of reason, of secularism, of free thought, of education, had overcome superstition, religon and lies long ago.
Stunningly the American Christian hypocrites, whom have put the sorriest SOB in American history in power, use and benefit all the trappings of modern science, yet when it comes to their CULT, prefer to set aside facts, reject the Scientific Method, and believe in a system controlled by Supernatural beings that have never been proven to exist, that do not communicate, (other than, of course, through the cultists), that decide to let other “men”, (not women, lol) communicate gods “thoughts and messages”, to other men, through a collection of books that neither agree with each other, are factually incorrect, that have no documented or understood authors, consist of no ORIGINAL manuscipts, and according to experts like Bart Ehrman, these “books”, have been re-written and modified so many times no one knows what the hell the original Gospels actually said. Ehrman, indicates the changes (edits) in the gospels, from one generation to the next, now number in the hundreds of thousands. Thats no misprint, HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS.
And 21st century American Politics are now hijacked by these people?
To use the Christian Expression – God help us !!!!
Hi Bruce. Its been a while. I had to respond here in the hope that I could add something new to this debate. I do like OBSTACLECHICK’s response. Both you and her seem to have hit the nail on the head. A real definition of what it is that makes a deity has never been forwarded …… yet. Even evangelicals of all stripes seem to be lost in that darkness. This is because “Holy Books” constantly get in their way. For better or worse, the single most important philosophical question for Mankind is not whether there is a GOD but, whether or not Mankind can survive the imagined barriers that the cosmos will surely throw our way. The big question ? Can we ourselves become gods ? That’s more important than whether or not there’s a GOD out there. Can we get there ourselves ?!?
On another note, I have a 70 episode podcast coming in late 2025 that will try to answer these questions. In that podcast, I will be redefining the term “atheist” and explain the fundamental difference between TRADITIONAL atheism and the NEW atheism. I will be giving, finally, the first real definition of “GOD”, in the ontological, cosmological and moral sense of the humanist philosophy. To test this, I reached out to apologetics and found that they were stunned. I asked for their counter arguments. I asked them to come up with any religious arguments to any of my points. I would be willing to reconsider my views. I’ve done this many, many times, Was there ever a response ? There was none. I don’t think I ever, in my life, ever stopped a frontal attack from apologetics before. Even those who cite reams of Bible verses. Dead stop. I’ve tried to re-connect. Nothing. I hit their Achilles heal on this one.
It also did not go over well when I told them I believed in many “Biblical miracles” (because I could perform them). I spent my life in palaeontology and up to 4 months annually in the field, in desert climes and witnessed ordinary but very subtle events that weekenders could never notice. I stated that there are no miracles. Just people that have not ventured outside their church doors. My 2 cents. For what it’s worth.
Me niether Bruce. Questions about the existence of a god are as irrelevant to my reality as questions about the Easter bunny. The very question is so anti-intellectual that it’s a bit repellent. No, I don’t think about God existing except when I read this blog and I’m only here because I enjoy the intellectuallity and reasoning of the blogger and many, even most, of the commenters. I sure aint here trying to resolve any conflicts about my beliefs or lack thereof. Prominent accomplished people like Collins functioning at a high level in sheer spite of an isolated lapse in reasoning is a curious puzzle, an impenetrable mystery, about which I can only speculate. I often puzzle at Supreme Court Justices whose very job is reasoniong and yet they (at least) claim to be religious. As a simple person who reduces things to the simplest form, I get stuck at the point where I can’t resolve a person’s status as an accomplished individual and their commitment to nonsense. I can only resolve it as a form of madness and yet these people are rational about everything but religion. Perhaps that’s THE prime example of something that “exceedeth all understanding”. It exceedeth mine for sure.
When I explain why I don’t go to church anymore, my answer is “I’m just not interested.” It’s true and that way I’m not insulting people who believe in a god, though I’d have plenty to say about their critical thinking were I so inclined.
I can’t stand theological conversations and have zero interest in the beliefs of any religion because they’re all equally silly. I don’t find them fascinating or worth learning, because I don’t care about made-up ideologies. My interest in religion now is about its destructive effects on societies, and boy are we living through that now.
Also, I do love to come up with my own little practical deconstructions, such as: Why does god care more about popular people? Every time there’s a prayer chain for someone, isn’t it just an admission that god is keeping a tally and once the prayee is sufficiently supported by the numbers, then that person will be healed? I guess the person with few friends is out of luck where god is concerned.
Probably, only in the context of being asked that question by one or more of my grandchildren. I don’t want to answer that question for them. I want to be prepared for the question and not panic about it. I hope my relationship with them, built on love and trust will provide the space for the discussion, depending on the child’s personality and what is age appropriate (it’s different for each child.)
Otherwise it isn’t something I sit with as a rule.
“i don’t believe in anything, but i have a lot of suspicions.” — robert anton wilson
i have specific knowledge that God both exists, and does not exist, at the same time, without causing any logical contradictions.
i know this because God told me this, personally.
i have no proof, but the proof is out there, for anybody to perceive, if one is so inclined.
if one is not inclined to perceive it, then this whole argument is pointless, and you might as well consider me to be insane.
it is perfectly fine with me if you believe i am insane. your opinions about me do not cause me to alter my way of living in the slightest degree. 😉
Hi Bruce, been a minute. Long time reader/follower, infrequent commentator. Followed your health path. Painful as it triggers memories of my late husband’s journey with cancer. There were times we’d look at each other and say this sucks but we don’t, and that was all it took to keep on keeping on. I keep you and yours in my thoughts.
So, to your question, is their a God. Large answer, like one overwhelming ego driven creator that made all the things? No – fairly certain such an entity is a reflection of humanities own ego. Not 100% because well, I’m not an all powerful being so there is that.
Small answer – yes to energies felt by a specific center in our brain but not completely understood yet, yes to more dimensions than can be perceived through touch, taste, or smell but as defined by current mathematics and physics, yes to the concept that human brains through their collected thoughts and unwavering belief create images within the energies which they then take to be deities but are in reality reflections of themselves. I think. I could be wrong. It has happened.
It started with asking for a reason some calamity occurred. Somewhere a wily soul saw a chance for power over others and here we are today.