Are undocumented immigrants lawbreakers? Sure, in the strictest sense of the word. When I drive our car 65 mph in a 55 mph zone, I am breaking the law. Back in my Limewire days, I downloaded thousands of songs. Doing so was illegal. I have broken the law numerous times over the years, actions which could have landed me in the county jail or with a fine. I suspect most Americans could say the same. When convenient, we play loose with the law. If we get caught, we pay the price.
I view most undocumented workers the same way. Being here illegally is a “crime” in the same way speeding is. Should they have their lives uprooted and lose their jobs and homes, all because they came to the United States years ago? No, and we need to find a way to legalize the immigrants who are here illegally. This is especially true for immigrants who have lived in the U.S. their entire lives. My God, we are deporting children. Sorry, but this sickens me.
Undocumented immigrants who commit serious crimes should be arrested, prosecuted in a court of law, and, if warranted, deported. However, immigrants who haven’t committed a crime or who have minor dings on their records should be given an opportunity to be here legally. We NEED them, and we are about to find out what happens if the Toddler King gets his way and deports millions of immigrants.
Think about your own life. Have you ever broken the law? Imagine being removed from your home and sent to a prison in a foreign country. Imagine no due process. Imagine being separated from your spouse, children, grandchildren, and extended family. You are at the mercy of a man who hates your guts; a racist who only wants “good” immigrants; you know — white people.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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It’s also worth noting that a lot of the filthy-rich folk enjoy the fruits of undocumented labour. It’s a cheap workforce for them, one they can easily exploit. MAGAs who think Trump will endorse a society that pays Americans a good wage, when cheaper labour is precisely what Trump wants to exploit for him and his cronies, are deluding themselves.
Absolutely. One church I co-pastored built a new 100’x100’ building. Many undocumented immigrants worked on the construction. They were hired by local contractors. Their excellent work saved us thousands of dollars .
When we lived in Yuma, undocumented workers who were looking for work would knock on our door. One man offered to dig/bury a long irrigation line for $10. I immediately said yes, but doubled his pay. I still felt guilty afterward. The man’s labor was worth much more than I paid him. 😢
As I drove to work every day, I would pass hundreds of migrants picking produce. They were there in the morning and still there in the evening. Long, hot hours for shitty pay. I wouldn’t do the work for that pay level; not that I physically could do the work. I really believe Americans are clueless about the value immigrants add to our society — besides awesome REAL Mexican food. 🤣Yes, immigrants should be here legally. However, instead of testing all of them like serial killers, how about we remove the gang members/felons and then find a way to give people a safe, secure path to citizenship. For the dreamers? Immediate citizenship. We need to stop punishing children for choices made by their immigrant children.
That’s actually not the issue. The highly mobile and industrious immigrant workforce are actually paid well. The issue is that there are absolutely no Americans who will do this kind of work for any pay. While Trump tries to conflate the Venezuelan border crisis which overwhelmed border areas with immigrant ag workers may work politically, it is incredibly short sighted. Even Trump’s culture of terror can prevent this vital service.
Bruce I wish more people, particularly supposed “Christians” would for once put theirselves in the shoes of a man or woman who has lived most of their lives in the US, who may have children, pets and even a house and cars. They go to work, school, maybe church and other social activities. The US is the country they know. They may get a speeding ticket from time to time, maybe a DUI at the worse.
Before, this family could live in relative peace. Now with Dear Leader at the helm, they live in constant fear. Are some migrants violent assholes? Yep, just like some ‘Merican born and raised Bible-believing “Jesus said-it (in English just like he wrote the Bible in!) and I believe it!” Fundamentalist Christians folks are.
So if we are going to use the threat of arrest and deportation for the crime of being a violent asshole, let’s start with the January 6th folks..oh wait, Dear Leader pardoned them.
I agree 100% on securing our physical borders, using the military if we have to for infrastructure support more than anything. But we have to determine how to reasonably and compassionately deal with those already here, who are more than likely much better citizens than many of our own native born folks.
If someone professes Christianity, then they must believe the Gospel account about the life of Jesus, to and including that Mary, Joseph and baby Jesus were at some point migrants during the flight to Egypt. I believe this is why most of the time Jesus is seen advocating for those who were at the lowest level in Judean society.
Evangelical thinking about immigrants has changed from my youthful days to today.
As the co-pastor of an Evangelical church in Texas, we had several Mexican members who weren’t legal. One man’s wife was still in Mexico. What did the church do? We bribed a border guard to let her across the border. I doubt this would happen today. So much hatred towards immigrants and brown people these days, even among so-called followers of the brown skinned man named Jesus. Jesus and his parents were even immigrants (in Egypt) for part of the son of God’s life.
A few thoughts in reply:
I can’t imagine a man or woman who enters the US illegally, knowing full well he or she is entering the US illegally, and lived most of their lives in the US, may have children, pets and even a house and cars, go to work, school, maybe church and other social activities and not taken the time or effort (no matter how difficult or expensive it is) to become a legal US citizen. It seems absurd to spend a great portion of your life in a foreign country and not become a legal citizen if you plan to spend the majority of your life here?
It is not good to compare the flight of Mary, Joseph and baby Jesus to Egypt with the immigrants who enter the US illegally in our age. The Scriptures offer no insight on what their immigration status was during their time in Egypt, nor do the Scriptures say what obstacles they endured to stay in Egypt. We just assume they were like the immigrants who come to the US in our age because it is a good talking point to extend compassion to illegal immigrants. Maybe Joseph did everything he could to stay with his family in Egypt legally until God called him back to Israel? However, we do know that most of the immigrants who come to the US today, who do not cross the border legally, do nothing to seek legal status.
Thankfully we agree a secure border is required and necessary, even using the military if needed to secure the border. Maybe the current immigration issue could have been avoided if our past Presidents (both republican and democrat) were faithful to secure the border.
I agree all compassion should be used to deport those who live in the US illegally. Hasn’t (as you say) “Dear Leader” granted grace to all who self-deport under ‘Project Homecoming’? That seems completely compassionate.
On another note, could the extreme protests and backlash over the current deportation efforts be simply because (as you say) “Dear Leader” initiated them? Didn’t Obama also deport undocumented immigrants? Why were there no major protests over deporting illegal immigrants during his administration?
Finally, Jesus said “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s.” (Matthew 22:21, Mark 12:17, and Luke 20:25). Does this not indicate He instructed people to obey the country’s laws? While He certainly advocated for the lowest in Judean society, he also instructed all people to obey the law of land. One could conclude He would tell illegal immigrants to get legal status if you plan to stay in the country long term.
There are many reasons people don’t become citizens: lack of documentation, past criminal convictions, lack of income; fear of deportation, to name a few.
Sure, past presidents deported people too. The issue is how the Toddler King is going about it. Arresting people who are trying to become legal; deporting children as young as 2; deporting children here for medical treatment; entering churches and businesses to arrest people; using militarized agents who often wear masks and lack proper ID; denying immigrants access to the legal system and social services. The bottom line is this: Trump is a racist, and his actions towards people of color verifies this claim. Trump isn’t going after white/Asian/European undocumented immigrants (Asians, not Latinos are the largest immigrant group). Virtually all of the immigrants deported are people of color.
Further, mass deportations will wreck the US economy, or, at the very least, result in a significant rise in the prices of goods that use immigrant labor.
And then you have the arrests of immigrants who are here legally. People with green cards and people here under various work programs are arbitrarily being rounded up and deported.
Finally, you want immigrants to obey the laws of Caesar, yet you do not object to the Trump Administration’s lawbreaking, including ignoring and violating the U.S. Constitution and legal court orders. Do you think it is okay to for the Trump Administration to ignore Constitutional protections guaranteed for everyone in the U.S. — not just citizens? Are you okay with denying immigrants due process? Are you okay with summarily deporting people to foreign countries, including nation states known for violence in their prisons and civil rights abuses? By all means, show us how former President Obama (or Clinton, Bush 1, Bush 2, Biden) did the same? I don’t object to legal deportations, but that’s not what Trump and his merry band of white Christian nationalists are doing. Fear and terror is the goal. Trump is a bully; a man whose wealth has sheltered him from the way 99.9% of the rest of the world lives. He is a stupid, brutish man who doesn’t read, rarely takes advice from others, and has no care or regard for the suffering of others. All he cares about is projecting strength, even though he is a weak, unfit man — regardless of the lies his doctors tell. Over the weekend, a photo surfaced that likely shows Trump is wearing a catheter, with the bag strapped to his leg. Either that or his dick is a foot bigger since Stormy Daniel’s saw it last. If this is true, why is it being hidden from the American people? One reason: Trump wants to project invincibility. Invincible, my ass. He mocked Biden for having difficulty navigating the steps to Air Force One. Who tripped and fell recently? The Toddler King, Our fearless, invincible leader.
By all means square what the fine Christians in the Trump Administration are doing compared to the teachings of Christ. My point about Jesus and his mother/father escaping to Egypt (for some of the very reasons immigrants flee countries today) was meant to be a general observation. If the Trump Administration governed Egypt back in the day, they would have summarily deported Jesus and his parents to Rome.
Have you ever been poor? I mean really, really, really poor; so poor that you are working 2-3 jobs and collecting pop bottles and cans just to feed your family and put a roof over their heads? If not, you have no idea how hard it is to come up with the money — sometimes costing thousands of dollars if you need a lawyer — to facilitate the legal immigration process. I’ve been there, both as a child and an adult. Coming up with ANY extra money was difficult, if not impossible.
I find it interesting you characterize the protests are “extreme.” Since when are peaceful, non-violent protests “extreme?” Proponents of non-violent resistance oppose all forms of violence. You seem to be tarring all protesters with a brush meant to tar the minuscule number of protesters who are violent.
Do you approve of Trump’s massive pardon of 1-6 insurrectionists?
Just heard Attorney General Pam Bondi lie, saying it was a crime to wave a Mexican flag or burn an American flag at a protest. This is patently untrue. We still have rights, though it remains uncertain that those rights will remain intact by the time the violent reign of the Toddler King is over.
This Saturday will tell us a lot about the future of our Republic. Almost 2, 000 protests are scheduled. Hundreds of thousands of American will join together to stand for democracy and law and order. How will the Toddler King, the Dog Killer Gnome, and the Drunken Warrior respond? We shall see. I know where Polly and I will be.
As far as self-deportation is concerned, many undocumented workers have jobs — most adult immigrants work and pay taxes — that don’t pay well. Pray tell where will they get the thousands of dollars necessary to self-deport?
Jesus also told the rich young ruler to sell all that he had and give the money to the poor. Do you think this story has anything to say to us today, especially to the rich old rulers who now control the federal government?
If you want to get unto a Bible verse quoting debate, I’m game. I’m confident that I can defend the claim that the Toddler King’s treatment of undocumented immigrants and poor people in general is immoral (and evidence that most the Trump administration will land in Hell after they die). Not that I believe in the existence of God/Hell, but I am more than happy to have an intellectual discussion about these matters. 🤣❤️
Like you said Bruce, me too. Hell may not be real but for the sake of certain people I wish it were.
Dave- a few thoughts in rebuttal:
I’m sure there are many here who were brought as children, called “Dreamers” who have established themselves as I have described. They also may very well be attempting to become citizens, to and including serving in the military. Under the current regime, this doesn’t matter. The arbitrary nature of ICE’s operations as well as the total disregard of due process means that these folks have to walk on eggshells that you and I can only imagine in order to fly under the radar. ICE has arrested students in high schools, has deported people without any due process. I could be wrong, but I don’t think this was done as much under previous administrations.
This type of heavy handedness is why I refer to President Trump as “Dear Leader”, which is the same monicker his good friend Kim Jung Un has in North Korea.
The verse you cite was Jesus’ answer to a trick question by the Pharisees and Sadducee’s if I am not mistaken. They thought they could discredit Jesus by asking him a question with no good answer. It was about paying taxes to the Romans. Jesus used a denarii, a Roman coin to show that money is an object of this world and life. It is a temporary object that can go as easily as it comes to a person. Getting bent out of shape as to whether someone should pay the Roman’s back the very money they minted for use by the Jews seemed ridiculous to him, hence his response to the Jewish officials’ trick question. I think it is a stretch to say this was Jesus telling his followers they have to always be law abiding citizens. I think it was more of a teaching about being passive , kind and logical in the face of real or perceived oppression. Using your logic, our founding fathers were traitors to the ruling government of England, and would not be approved by Jesus when they rebelled against King George. The person who hid Anne Frank (I believe a Christian) would also be disapproved by Jesus because his actions were against the law when they rebelled German Nazis occupied the Netherlands. I believe there are verses in the Old Testament warning Israel to treat the “alien” among them with compassion. A better verse for you to use would have probably been the one where St. Paul says to “Honor the Emperor”..this could have meant Nero Caesar. Does that mean that he was advocating for nearly Christian’s to renounce their faith when it was demanded by the Roman authorities?
I think the flight of the BVM Mary, St. Joseph and baby Jesus to Egypt is a perfect example to this topic. It was done due to Herod’s slaughter of the Innocents. I’m sure both Mary and Joseph were afraid and had very few possessions to take with them. It is unknown, but I can speculate Herod was seeking this family. I doubt their stay in Egypt was a pleasant one, even if the authorities weren’t looking for them.
As Christians, our driving desire is to be the light- the example of kindness and compassion to those who are living in fear and hunger, as well as the good balance of reason and logic, too. Legality isn’t always the best standard, because this is a standard that is based mostly on who happens to be in political power.
I appreciate your response to my post, but I will have to respectfully disagree with you.
By the way, Dave, I appreciate you being a longtime reader. It was six years ago you left your first comment! ❤️❤️ You will be richly rewarded in Heaven for reading this blog. Oh wait, I took some cannabis, so I could be high, and you are actually going to be my bunk mate in the Lake of Fire. 🤣🤣
Thank you. Has it been six years?! But no worries! I’ll sit with you and consume a few cans of Zombie Dust IPA (shout out: Three Floyds Brewing – Munster, Indiana). Probably over consume, as is the habit I’m trying to break! ❤️
I believe Polly has had a few Zombie Dust IPA.
How many of our ancestors had the proper papers when they first arrived? Damn few of them, I’ll bet! My mother-in-law did, but she was the bride of a US airman in the mid-50s and my Chinese granddaughters had gotten their US citizenship when they still in China.
As the shirt from Native Pride says ” No one is illegal on stolen land.”
Today’s episode of In the Heat of the Night is the end of a two-parter about these monks who give sanctuary to a man from El Salvador. That’s what the church should be doing and our communities, for that matter.
Thanks, Bruce. Yes, it’s more than a sad day here in the U.S. Just a head shaker on so many levels. What is worse is that supposed followers of Christ are on board with this. I’d be glad to be “left behind.” I say all of this sadly, but from my spot of privilege. For so many this is a heart wrenching and threatening time. What can we do to mitigate/lessen this disaster and set the stage for a better day for such folks in the future?
When he was President, Ronald Reagan called for amnesty for illegal immigrants. What would today’s Republicans think of him?
Why would someone break the law to come to this country? The process of becoming a legal resident, let alone a US citizen, is long and difficult, especially for someone who is poor and doesn’t speak English. Such migrants are, as often as not, fleeing dangerous situations in their native lands. If they go through the process of becoming legal residents, they could be dead before it’s done.
Say what you will about someone who comes here illegally. But I think there’s no reason to punish someone whom the illegal immigrant brought as a child or baby: They didn’t have any say in the matter.
MJ,
Even more recent than Ronald Reagan (the two words that really triggered me to respond), I remember the 2000s, when George W. Bush (GWB) cautioned against too much negative focus on migrant labor. GWB seemed to be stating it while walking a fine line so as to not piss off anyone in his party’s base. Something about migrants doing the work that “we” (white people) were unwilling to do for such a low wage. In my mind at that time, it seemed to translate as: “We need someone to flip burgers for minimum wage… and ‘those people’ will happily do it for minimum wage while the rest of us refuse to do the same type of work because we know that kind of pay is shit.”
That’s my personal interpretation, but I stand by it.
I’d love to hear GWB’s present thoughts either in defense of DJT or countering DJT. But, shockingly, GWB seems to be silent on the matter while relishing and relaxing in his Texan retirement. Even more shocking, the silence from GWB’s vice president Dick “Darth Vader” Cheney, father of the unexpected yet respected U.S. House hero of January 6, 2021… daughter Liz.
Hello Dick? Are you still out there somewhere? Cat got your tongue? I surprised you’re incapable of saying something about current national affairs. Maybe you need to call Karl Rove and get some advice. Oh? Karl’s too busy to advise and comment as well? Perhaps Condoleezza can help. No?
Oh, and, according to today’s “breaking news”, DJT (also known as “TACO” — “Trump Always Chickens Out”) is now re-evaluating his crackdown enforcements on migrant workers employed by farmers, as well as similar workers in the hotel / motel / other hospitality industries. Which suggest the DJT is pulling the old GWB argument because of…. wait for it…. “we need someone to do it” (because we need the money and the votes.)
It’s repulsive on so many levels.
One of the things we bring up to my MAGA father-in-law is questioning whether his grandparents came here legally from Ireland. We don’t have proof that they were here legally. Plus, after they arrived they were selling alcohol while it was still illegal to do so. So my husband LOVES to say, “Your grandparents may have not arrived here legally, and they were bootleggers.” It’s so fun to get my FIL all riled up when we challenge his MAGA BS.
On a serious note, I have a massive problem with the lack of due process for people. Worse, people being picked up at their freaking HEARINGS. People are doing the right thing showing up at hearings and being arrested. That’s horrible.
Also, it’s affecting businesses. I work for a mid-sized fragrance manufacturer. We own factories in the US (our headquarters), in Shanghai, and in Germany. We own these factories and employ people in these locations. Sometimes we want to move employees from one location to another for a few months for their continued training, to fill a job gap, etc. It’s becoming increasingly difficult to secure documentation that allows these folks to come work here. And, rightly so, some are afraid to come to the US for fear of harassment by officials. I can’t tell you how overworked immigration attorneys are right now!
All the people we employ at my company have legal status to work. They are fortunate to have been able to secure that. I have to say, many of our best hardworking employees are immigrants. Fight me on this, but I will hire an immigrant over a native born person if their skills are similar.
Agree with all you wrote Chick. I would add that your Irish ancestor likely entered the US when immigrants were welcome without a visa. I tried to find my family’s Ellis Island records and discovered they had never been to Ellis Island because they had visas.. They came in the late 20s and Immigrants apparently could come to the USA uninvited with no visa. Immigrants without visas were processed through Ellis Island where undesirables, criminals, mentally or physically ill, contagious, etc were sorted out and sent back. Once clearing Ellis, they entered the country with no restriction except periodic reporting. When I was born my parents were doing stoop labor, harvesting crops in Ohio, along with Mexicans who came and went annually for the harvest and going home. Mexicans began staying the winter when crossing the border became difficult. It’s not unreasonable to speculate that the Mexican “invasion” was caused by closing the border. Migrants preferred to go home if they could freely return for next year’s harvest.
Unexpected results, huh?
Again you are right. Trump has made especially Hispanic immigrants the scape goats so he can get complete power. It is like Jim Crow except now it is for immigrants. He will also make them the excuse for why the USA will reduce how many people can get Medicaid and how much from it. As with the Trump birthday parade he is threatening anyone who disagrees with him and dares to protest.
Please ask every one of the people who comment on this to think about what it would be like to live in an absolutist country whether it is like to Cold War communists or like the fascists types now thinking that January 6 would have been their route to power. I would certainly be imprisoned for disagreeing and saying so.
If we did not have immigrants to pick our crops they would not get picked. Maybe we would need an army of agriculture workers into which people could be drafted.
Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie wrote a song in 1948 about this problem called Deportee. This is not a new problem.
Brilliantly said Bruce. A thank you from 🇬🇧 where we fortunately have a minority pushing for ostracizing migrants who are mostly polite and just grateful for jobs like cleaning streets, refuse removal and cleaning out toilets. We ought to be beyond grateful because too many Brits don’t want to do those kind of jobs.
Thank you for your strong sense of justice and compassion. It goes to show that those qualities do not have to be bound to any religion.
My own upbringing exposed me to poverty at an early age. These experiences certainly shaped my view of poverty/immigration. There go I except for the grace of God, right? I may not believe in god, but I’m grateful for how my life is today economically compared to the first 40 years of my life. Hard work? Sure, but I also know how lucky I am to be where I am today. ❤️ I’ve seen people work just as hard as I did, yet were never able to progress economically. 😢 I pastored a church in SE Ohio where every family was employed, yet most of them received some form of government assistance (as did our family for a time). The only well paid members were 2 school teachers, 1 truck driver, and 2 coal miners. In the mid-80s, we were running 150-200 in attendance. Biggest total offerings for the year (probably 1986)? $40,000. Most years were $20-25,000.