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Category: Evangelicalism

How Christian Fundamentalism Robbed Us of the Opportunity to Listen to the Devil’s Music

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devils music

My partner and I were teenagers in the 1970s — the heyday of the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) church movement. Many of the largest churches in the United States were IFB congregations and numerical church growth across the movement was normal and expected. Exciting times, to say the least. People looking for certainty were drawn to IFB churches and their rules. Having been born into and schooled in the IFB church movement, Polly and I were obedient church members. Our morals, ethics, and worldview were shaped by what we heard from our pastors and Sunday school teachers, and later, at Midwestern Baptist College, our professors. While we, at times, chaffed against the rules, conditioning and indoctrination taught us that obedience to the rules was expected by God, and disobedience brought chastisement, punishment, and, at times, death. As a result, we didn’t experience many of the things — good and bad — that “normal” teens did in the 70s.

Take music. We were taught that “worldly” music was sinful; that listening to it would corrupt our minds and lead us to commit all sorts of sinful behaviors — mostly sexual, in nature. Rock music, in particular, was demonized. IFB churches would have preachers such as Bob Larson and David Benoit hold revival services focused on rock music and its influence on teens. These services were used to scare the hell out of teenagers, warning them that listening to rock music would corrupt them and lead to hellfire and brimstone. As a result, we rarely listened to rock music. Oh, we had AM radios in our cars, but the records (and later cassette tapes, 8-track tapes, and CDs) we owned were, without exception, southern gospel or choral music.

After marriage and having children, our approach to music “liberalized.” We added contemporary Christian music and Christian rock to the mix, but still no secular music. It wasn’t until the late 1990s that we started listening to “safe” secular music. Over time, our tastes and desires changed, but it was not until we deconverted in 2008 that we stopped regularly listening to Christian music. I will still occasionally listen to Christian music, but Polly has no interest in revisiting our music pasts.

Think of all the awesome music we missed out on from the ’60s, ’70s, and ’80s. The good news is that post-Jesus we are free to listen to all sorts of secular music. I tell people that, in many ways, Polly and I are living our youthful years for the first time. Free from the IFB church’s oppressive rules, we are free to indulge in the Devil’s music — without guilt or fear.

In recent years, we have started attending secular concerts. Lots of fun, for the both of us. That said, we tend to be the oldest, or some of the oldest, people in attendance. Last Friday, we attended a concert in Fort Wayne by The Fray. We had an awesome time. Packed house, numbering 2,100 in attendance. We were surrounded by people ages 20-40. One thought I had during the concert was that the concert was a lot like a church or revival service. The excitement and raw emotions were palatable, and song after song spoke to our “hearts.” The difference, of course, was that there were no threats of judgment of Hell, no offering plates, no altar calls — just fellowship with people from diverse backgrounds and beliefs.

The opening act was a new band called Verygently. We laughed through their song, Jesus Girl, as only former IFB church members could do.

Video Link

Lyrics

[Verse 1]
Got the preacher up front and I’m chilling in back
And I’m bored as hell
In a collared shirt that I got from the Gap
With the shoes as well
It’s been a few years and I feel real weird here
Free sip of wine ’cause they don’t sell beer here
Talking in tongues, I was just about to run
Then well, well, well

[Chorus]
I saw Jesus girl
A tall glass of holy water
Swear she had a halo on her
Jesus girl
With her cross necklace and braids
Holy shit, I think I’m saved
I still don’t believe in God
But I’ll give everything I’ve got
To Jesus girl

[Verse 2]
Now I’m back every Sunday thinking ’bout one day
Asking her out
Still chilling in the back, but I’m learning how to act
Like I’m into it now
I might get baptized just so she’ll see me
Bible verse tat, John 3:16 me
Sending up a prayer if you’re really up there
I’d love to get down

Chorus]
With Jesus girl
A tall glass of holy water
Swear she had a halo on her
Jesus girl
With her cross necklace and braids
Holy shit, I think I’m saved
I still don’t believe in God
But I’ll give everything I’ve got
To Jesus girl

[Bridge]
Na-na-na, na-na
Na-na-na, na-na
Na-na-na, na-na
Na-na-na, na-na (Jesus girl)
Na-na-na, na-na
Na-na-na

[Outro]
Yeah, my whole life turned around
I was lost until I found
Jesus girl

Compare this song to a Christian song also titled Jesus Girl.

She’s just fifteen, but she acts older, much older,
And she won’t listen to what all the kids told her, when they told her, 
She knows what they want, but she knows what she needs, and it’s not the same,
She won’t give in, you see.

She’s a Jesus girl, oh yeah, (oh yeah, oh yeah)
Well, she’s a J-J-Jesus girl, (oh yeah, oh yeah)
And she’s a Jesus girl.

She knows what’s right and what’s wrong, she knows what’s wrong,
She reads her Bible and she’s strong, she’s so strong,
She’s telling all her friends that there’s a better way,
No more broken hearts, no lonely nights or days.

And she’s a Jesus girl, yeah, yeah, (oh yeah, oh yeah)
Well, she’s a J-J-J-Jesus girl, (oh yeah, oh yeah)
Well, she’s a Jesus girl.

She jumps and shouts for Jesus, she loves Jesus,
She keeps her eyes on Jesus, on her Jesus,
And when she jumps and shouts, her eyes are on the Lord,
Well, she’s a Christian, yeah, but she’s never bored.

And she’s a Jesus girl, oh yeah, (oh yeah, oh yeah)
Well, she’s a J-J-Jesus girl, (oh yeah, oh yeah)
She’s a Jesus girl.

Polly and I plan to continue listening to the Devil’s music. How about you? Did your music tastes and experiences change post-Jesus (or post-Evangelical if you are still a believer)? Please share your thoughts in the comment section.

Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.

Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.

You can email Bruce via the Contact Form.

Does God Have Free Will?

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god

If humans have free will, that means it is possible, even likely that they will behave in ways contrary to the will of God. This means that humans can thwart the will of the triune God.

Let the cognitive dissonance and circular argumentation begin.

Let’s consult the infallible, inerrant Word of God.

And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence. And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. (Matthew 13:53-58)

Here we find Jesus healing people and working other miracles (mighty works). Jesus wanted to help everyone, but he couldn’t. Why? Because of unbelief. This means, then, that humans can, by refusing to believe or have faith, thwart the will of God.

Conclusion: God does not have free will.

Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.

Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.

You can email Bruce via the Contact Form.

Dr. David Tee Shares His Plan for How to Reach Unbelievers for Christ

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dr david tee's library
Dr. David Tee’s Massive Library

Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen, shares with his readers how to reach sinners, unbelievers, and atheists for Jesus. What follows are quotes from his recent posts. These should give Christians and unbelievers alike a snapshot of how he interacts with and responds to unbelievers.

Maybe he’s not interested in evangelizing sinners as much as he is being right. This doesn’t surprise me. Christian Fundamentalists like to talk about winning souls for Christ, but it seems to me that what they really care about is being absolutely right.

Let me know you think in the comment section.

Dr. David Tee, In His Own Words

Unbelievers like taking common and legitimate aspects of writing and distorting them into something they are not.

BG at the end of his post gets upset that we have ‘impugned’ his character. Yet, he should not do it to God if he doesn’t want to have it done to him.

Another misunderstanding and misrepresentation of God and his actions.

Another wholesale misrepresentation and a personal attack thrown in.

Another misrepresentation and distortion. BG generalizes the commands to make his point, which undermines his credibility and ruins his honesty. He is not being honest even after being told the correct explanation about God’s commands.

The unbelieving moral standard is inferior and allows for sin and corruption to flourish.

The unbeliever is not in any position to judge God and His commands. Their idea of morality is worse than what they accuse God of being. Their definitions of the acts commanded are just as subjective and fluid as their moral code. The unbelievers’ moral code is not infallible nor omnipresent like God’s.

Not one of those accusations thrown against God is true.

At this point, we stop responding and addressing the falsehoods and misrepresentations written by BG. At the end he makes this claim that he has not murdered or raped so he must be a good man and we are impugning his character. Our response to that silly claim is HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!

He does it to himself by purposefully lying, misrepresenting the facts, the Bible, God, etc., distorting the topics, and being dishonest in his points. We are not impugning his character but pointing out where he is wrong. Which we are allowed to do.

The only way to continue these types of discussions is if the unbeliever is honest, has an open mind, and will listen to your facts honestly and sincerely. Close-minded people like BG and MM only hear what they want to hear, then look for ways to misrepresent what was said.

Speaking of MM, he wrote a response to our mind your own business and his only point was– ‘I will write on any topic I want to’– such a stubborn, close-minded individual who does not get the fact that what he has to say means nothing because he is not qualified to speak on many topics.

They do not use all the facts, just the ones that support their deceptive point of view. They are not honest.

 it is not the Christian who is ignorant, but the unbeliever who does not do very good research and only cherry picks the information they will use in their faulty attacks on God, the Bible and Christians.

When believers say things, it is often the case that unbelievers will ‘fact-check’ them. Then when the fact check turns up different information, they label Christians as liars.

This is another lie, as using corporal punishment is not beating a child or a student. But BG will not agree with that as he seeks to paint a false picture of us and what we believe. We could say that Bg does not care about innocent teachers or that teachers are being assaulted in the classrooms just by using his logic, but we won’t.

 BG should know better than to lie about us, especially when he was not there nor knows anything about the topic he writes.

What a crock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. This discovery only says that despite their claims to be rational and logical, scientists are great fairy tale writers.. They spin a good yarn that deceives millions of people, and that is wrong.

The scientists are not getting to the truth at all, but making everything up as they go.

But unbelievers like to think they get to dictate who will do what and do it according to their views. They forget there are others in the world who have the same rights and do not want them infringed upon.

This is another headline we came across, and we know the author [Bruce Gerencser] likes to word his headlines in a way that distorts what is going on.

The unbelievers’ solutions have been to remove God, prayer, specific punishments, and other similar aspects of school life and replaced them with ideas that do not work.

This is another ridiculous thing to say, as the unbeliever takes them out of context and misapplies them to whatever troubling thought they have on their minds. The unbeliever writing those words has no concept of what human flourishing means as he wants sin and corruption to abound at the expense of those doing what is right and moral.

But the unbelieving writer [Bruce Gerencser] of those quoted words does not care if he writes the truth or not. He just wants to justify his departure from God. He also wants to misdirect people’s attention away from what the unbelieving world is doing.

Anything that the writer accuses God of doing, his side of the world is doing with less than holy and pure motives, and on a far grander scale. He and other unbelievers are in no position to accuse God of anything.

Unbelievers do not make distinctions between true and false preachers/teachers. They lump everyone into one category, then continue to make false accusations against all Christians. 

Only in the minds of unbelievers and atheists is this done. They always need something to fuel their hatred of Christ, even by exploiting the nonsense spoken by false teachers.

Unbelievers and atheists will go to any length to justify their decision to reject the offer of salvation, even by extrapolating false claims made by false teachers to others not guilty of doing such a thing.

If they [unbelievers] were honest, they would separate the true from the false teachers and be more open-minded to the former while closed to the latter. But rarely are unbelievers and atheists honest when it comes to Christ, Christians, and those who pose as Christians.

These comments can be labelled as ‘they will never learn’, ‘they will never listen’, ‘they will complain no matter what’, and by they we mean unbelievers and atheists. We like to distinguish between the two even though they are all categorized under the unbelievers label.

Ignoring is the best option because unbelievers and atheists rarely accept the truth as the answer.

Unbelievers continue to deny God the right to punish people and animals for their disobedience, even though they do the same thing as parents or supervisors, etc. They will punish people for violating their rules or the rules of a company, which affects the loved ones and animals of those punished.

The unbeliever and atheist fail to see the entire side to these issues they complain about. They only want to have their desired results, even though it leaves sin and crime sin place. In their complaints, there is no option to punish those who disobey or commit crimes. The sinner is free to act as they will without fear of physically paying for their crimes.

Also, the unbeliever and atheist will attack and punish those who are living by the rules, making them nothing but toothless hypocrites. They will do exactly what they complain about and act the same as God acts. Only the target is different.

The unbelievers go after those who disagree with/disobey their views and rules and condemn themselves by the very complaints they make against God. Their complaints hold no water and do not lead anyone to a better way or paradise.

Leave it to unbelievers to get the opposition to trans ideology and practice wrong, and then twist it into something it is not. This is what MM [Ben Berwick] has done with his recent post.

No religious right individual or organization are attacking trans people. They are trying to relieve them of the delusions that enslaves the latter. There is no right for fake women to invade real women spaces. There is no right to call themselves women when they are not.

The only small minded bigots we find are trans people. You can see their bigotry any day of the week as it is recorded endlessly in the different news cycles as well as other media outlets.

He [Ben Berwick] deludes himself, as do many others, into thinking he is right when all he is doing is helping erase the lines of right and wrong, and what is defined as sin. He leads people to sin and that is wrong.

Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.

Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.

You can email Bruce via the Contact Form.

Responding to a Critic of the Post, Should Christians ALWAYS Obey God?

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love and obey

Recently, Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen, responded to my post Should Christians ALWAYS Obey God? I suspected one of my Fundamentalist critics would respond, and Thiessen was the first one to respond. What follows is my response. All spelling, grammar, and punctuation in the original. Thiessen’s response is in bold font.

There are many factors that play into our not taking a break. Right now, we have had a rainstorm and are still waiting for a project to be sent our way. So we need something to do. The question in the title is not ours. It comes from BG’s website, and it reflects the attitude of MM and his question: would we kill him if God commanded us to?

Thiessen, as he is wont to do, drags my friend Ben Berwick into the debate. While Ben and I agree on this issue, I will leave it to him to defend himself. Is it fair to ask questions about whether an Evangelical Christian would kill someone if God commanded him to? Absolutely. It is, after all, in the Bible. God repeatedly commanded his chosen people, the Israelites, to commit violence and murder against individuals and people groups. If Thiessen has a problem with our observations and conclusions, his real problem is with God, not BG and MM (as he likes to call Ben and me).

Both are ridiculous questions because the answer to the title question is yes, and the answer to the annoying second question is that God does not give that command anymore.

Wait a minute, I thought the Bible says that Jesus (who is God) is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is a deity that doesn’t change his mind, though other passages of Scripture say he does. On what basis do we conclude that God doesn’t expect his followers to obey everything he commands them to do? Is Thiessen saying God changed his mind; that he figured out bloodshed, violence, and murder are not effective ways to get your point across — especially when innocent people get caught up in the carnage — including women, children, babies, and fetuses?

I asked in my post:

If God commands a Christian to do something, should he obey? How does a Christian determine that it is God commanding him to do something? What if God’s command runs contrary to the Christian’s personal moral code? Should the Christian obey, anyway?

The answer to the first question is, yes, he should, as the Bible teaches us that to obey is better than sacrifice. The second question is a bit more difficult to answer, as confirming God’s command takes several steps.

Thiessen’s position is that Christians should, without exception, obey God’s commands. Never mind the fact that he doesn’t practice this himself, He’s more of a “do as I say, not as I do follower of Jesus.

The first step is to confirm that the command is in line with God’s word

Thiessen believes the Bible is the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God. He believes every word of the Bible is straight from the mouth of God. Thus, in his mind, if God commands it, obey!

The second step would be to confirm that God is sending that command. The Bible tells us to test the spirits, and we should test that command to make sure God is giving it.

How could someone possibly know it is God commanding him to do something? How does a Christian determine whether it is God, Satan, or self telling him to do something? As far as I am aware, there’s no empirical test that can be used to confirm it is God giving a believer a command. As far as I know, all that Evangelicals have to go on are their feelings. How do Evangelicals know God is speaking to them? They allegedly feel it in their heart of hearts.

Third, the nature of the command must be analyzed to make sure the Christian is not being commanded to violate God’s other commands, laws, and instructions. Murder and rape etc., are certainly not commands coming from God.

And here is the crux of the issue. The Bible does indeed make moral claims. However, the Bible also records not only God, but his followers, ignoring and violating these moral claims. What’s up with that? Surely Thiessen is aware that God commanded the Israelites to murder and rape those he determined were his enemies. If Thiessen wants to debate me on this issue, I’m game.

Fourth, one must be careful not to confuse the commands given in the OT as commands to be followed today. For example, God commanded certain activities to be done as punishment for the other people’s sins. Those commands are very people and era specific and are not in force today.

Does Thiessen really believe that every act of violence God commanded Israel to do is moral? What did the innocents murdered and raped by the Israelites — as commanded by God — do that deserved such punishment?

Thiessen wants us to believe that God went to anger management classes, and now he behaves differently. However, the book of Revelation reveals a God who is still very much a vicious monster. Richard Dawkins was right when he said:

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

As far as we know, God does not command anyone to kill others as punishment for their sins in the modern age. Those types of commands come from evil, and we know they come from evil because they violate God’s laws, instructions, and so on.

If these commands “come from evil,” logically God and the Israelites committed evil acts. I conclude, then, that the God portrayed in the Bible is evil.

Thiessen has no evidence for this claim. We humans cannot know God’s mind, the Bible says, yet Thiessen thinks he can discern and know the mind of God.

Then, we have NT instructions to guide us in how we obey God. Galatians 5 tells us:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Thiessen might want to meditate on these verses and change his ways. My interactions with Thiessen suggest that he doesn’t think these verses apply to him.

We are also told in Romans to obey the laws of the land and murder, rape, pedophilia, etc., are against the law of the land and a Christian cannot disobey those laws. As you see by the quoted verse above, we are instructed to live according to the Spirit, which does not have any evil or evil doing in it.

Evil is evil, right? So if certain behaviors today are evil, those same actions were evil in the Old Testament too. Thiessen cannot have it both ways.

As for the question, if God commands something against a Christian’s personal moral code, would that person obey God? First, a Christian should not have a moral code that contradicts God’s or his instructions. etc.

But, every Christian does. No two Christians have the same moral code, and that incudes Evangelicals who claim that the Bible is their rulebook.

Second, it is better to obey than sacrifice, so the Christian must always obey God, as long as it is God giving the instructions. Disobedience is sin and wrong. Third, we do not go by the unbelieving world’s standards for commands or obedience . . .

Again, how can an Evangelical Christian infallibly know that it is God commanding them to do something? They can’t.

….

I wrote:

Does genocide, child sacrifice, and slavery promote the well-being of others and human flourishing? Of course not. Yet, when God commands such things, all of a sudden, Christians lose all sense of what’s best for themselves and others.

This is another ridiculous thing to say, as the unbeliever takes them out of context and misapplies them to whatever troubling thought they have on their minds. The unbeliever writing those words has no concept of what human flourishing means as he wants sin and corruption to abound at the expense of those doing what is right and moral.

Contrary to Thiessen’s assertion, I know exactly what human flourishing means and what we can do to make our world a better place to live. Again, I am more than happy to debate him on this issue.

I find it funny coming from a man with a sordid past that he says “sin and corruption to abound at the expense of those doing what is right and moral.”

I wrote:

The good news is that most Christians do not obey God. As cafeteria Christians, they pick and choose which commands to obey. That’s why they oppose genocide, child sacrifice, and slavery.

That is not good news but bad news. Christians are not free to pick and choose what they will obey. As Jesus said, ‘Why do you call me Lord yet do not do the things I say’. People need to look at what Jesus says honestly and implement  his instructions correctly.

All Christians, including Thiessen, pick and choose the commands they want to obey. If someone obeyed every command, teaching, and precept in the Bible, you know what would happen? He would be arrested and thrown in prison.

At no time does Jesus teach to own slaves, commit genocide or do child sacrifice. Those activities are practiced by the unbelieving world as the sinful world aborts innocent children, keeps sex slaves, and kills people just because they do not like them.

Thiessen forgets the fact that Jesus is God. I have challenged him on this point before. I have concluded that he is heterodox on the nature of Jesus and the Trinity.

Everything that God commanded in the Old Testament, was also commanded by Jesus, the second person of the Trinity. Thus, Jesus commanded the Israelites to murder, rape, and commit genocide. To say otherwise is to deny the divinity and nature of Jesus.

We can point you to Hamas, Boko Haram, and other examples that show it is not the Christians that is doing this. Abortion is the biggest genocide taking place,e yet the unbelieving world practices it without guilt or shame.

The Christians are the ones trying to stop these things. But the unbelieving writer of those quoted words does not care if he writes the truth or not. He just wants to justify his departure from God. He also wants to misdirect people’s attention away from what the unbelieving world is doing.

Thiessen does what he always does: he attacks my motives and says I am a liar. I will leave it to readers to decide if I am a truth teller.

Anything that the writer accuses God of doing, his side of the world is doing with less than holy and pure motives, and on a far grander scale. He and other unbelievers are in no position to accuse God of anything.

It is best that he refrain from speaking, as his world is far worse than anything God has done.

Is this the best argument Thiessen can offer? God and his followers may have commited sinful, evil acts, but Bruce and his fellow atheists do worst things. Really? Whom have I murdered or raped? What immoral, evil acts have I committed. No, Thiessen objects to the fact that I speak my mind about Evangelical Christianity and people agree with me. His only response is to attack my character and lie — both of which, if the Bible is to be believed, means Thiessen is not a Christian.

What say ye readers? Please leave your thoughts in the comment section.

Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.

Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.

You can email Bruce via the Contact Form.

Is Corporal Punishment Banned in South Korea?

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jesus spanking sinners

Recently, Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen, said:

Growing up in a world where bible reading and prayer were in school, school life was a lot better for everyone. All the students and teachers knew there was a higher power than they, and they took the time to make sound decisions.

From what we have seen in today’s schools and experienced in the classroom ourselves, the school world would be better off if everyone acknowledged God and his presence.  We did not see the school violence that we see today, and school was very enjoyable during those years.

One was not afraid to walk to school, attend class, or even play outside. if we had a say in what is going on in Ohio, we would support it wholeheartedly. The unbeliever does not know what it takes to make school life better. They have no solutions to the problems kids face today, thus, they should not be so quick to oppose these measures.

The unbelievers’ solutions have been to remove God, prayer, specific punishments, and other similar aspects of school life and replaced them with ideas that do not work. We were in South Korea when the Gyeonggi-do head of education removed corporal punishment from the schools.

The violence against teachers rose so much that he had to do an about-face and return corporal punishment to the schools. We know what happens when punishment is a slap on the wrist or less. Social workers do not help here, as they are incapable of providing real solutions for students today.

Knowing that God exists and that he punishes bad behavior and is incorruptible does stop a lot of bad behavior among students.

Thiessen, an Evangelical preacher who lives in the Philippines, blogs at TheologyArcheology: A Site for the Glory of God. Over the years, Thiessen has repeatedly said that if schools were allowed to beat students they would behave. In his minds, schools are out of control because prayer, Bible reading, and corporal punishment were banned. This claim is patently untrue, both statistically and anecdotally.

In the aforementioned post, Thiessen told a whopper when he stated:

We were in South Korea when the Gyeonggi-do head of education removed corporal punishment from the schools.

The violence against teachers rose so much that he had to do an about-face and return corporal punishment to the schools. We know what happens when punishment is a slap on the wrist or less. Social workers do not help here, as they are incapable of providing real solutions for students today.

When I first read this, I thought, is this true, Did South Korean schools really return to beating children? A quick Google search revealed that Thiessen’s claim is false, Not only did South Korea ban corporal punishment in schools, it also banned parents from beating their children in 2021.

Safe to Learn reports:

The Republic of Korea has become the 62nd country to prohibit corporal punishment against children, and the fourth in the Asia Pacific region. With a child population of nine million, the Republic of Korea’s prohibition means 300 million children worldwide are now fully protected from violent punishment by law.

“Congratulations to the government of the Republic of Korea on its prohibition of corporal punishment against children – and to all of the organisations, institutions and partners who contributed to this important milestone for children,” said Dr Howard Taylor, the Executive Director of the End Violence Partnership. “In a world where more than two in three children experience violent discipline at the hands of their caregivers, this is not just a critically important step for children in Korea, it’s also a good example to other countries around the world who have yet to take this important step to protect children.”

This prohibition came into effect with the amendment of Civil Act 1958 (Act. No 17095) and the repeal of Article 915, which gave adults “the right to take disciplinary action” against children. With this repeal and revision, there is no longer a legal provision that can authorize the use of corporal punishment.

“A ban on the corporal punishment of children by their parents is the most fundamental stipulation in preventing child abuse,” said the Government of the Republic of Korea while announcing the amendment of the Civil Act. “The passage of the legislative amendment through the National Assembly is expected to provide an opportunity to fundamentally improve the social awareness towards the corporal punishment of children and child abuse.”

This law reform was a result of a collaboration between the government and child rights partners. Save the Children Korea spearheaded a campaign to prohibit corporal punishment in May of 2019 – and in January of 2021, the government announced that a promotion campaign to raise awareness of violent discipline had been included in the country’s Complements of Child Abuse Preventative System.

“We warmly welcome the amendment of the Civil Act and the early measures taken by the Government to support the implementation of prohibition,” said Dr Sonia Vohito, Legal Policy Specialist at the End Violence Partnership. “Still, huge numbers of children around the world are waiting for the realisation of their basic human right to protection from violent punishment, and we call on all remaining governments to enact prohibition without delay.”

Learn more about this prohibition by exploring the Republic of Korea’s country report. A global look at our progress on prohibiting corporal punishment can also be found at our corporal punishment countdown. 

It doesn’t surprise me in the least that Thiessen supports beating children. His beliefs on the matter are common among Fundamentalist Christians. As an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) pastor, I taught parents that God required them to beat their children; that beatings were God’s chosen form of discipline. I provided Bible verses that justified and supported corporal punishment. God said it, end of discussion. I later repented of my promotion of violence against children, and I now oppose beating children, without exception. I deeply regret beating my children, having apologized to them several times.

Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.

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You can email Bruce via the Contact Form.

Christians Say the Darnedest Things: How Many Animals Were On Noah’s Big Boat?

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noah's ark

Dear Pastor Sid,

I was reading the verses in Genesis and the story of the Noah and the Ark. I was wondering: how did he fit all the animals on the Ark? The Ark was not big enough for all the animals was it? — Martha in Walkertown

Hi Martha in Walkertown,

The Ark was about 500 feet long and about three stories high. It was build with three decks and thousands of square feet for storage and cages for animals. Go and visit the Ark Encounter in northern Kentucky if you get the chance. So what about the animals? All of the animals were not required to enter the Ark, only some of them. And the Genesis account refers to “kinds” of animals. “Kinds” means species, and there are only about 7,000 different specials of animals. Canines or dogs is a species, and so is felines or the cat families. But only two dogs, a male and female, entered the Ark. And all the dogs that exists now came from those two dogs. Likewise with all the species. It is speculated that the Ark could have held around 50,000 animals. Keep in mind that baby dogs, giraffes, and dinosaurs, would have been on the Ark, so the cages were still pretty small. This also means that each person on board (8 total) would have cared daily for about 6250 animals. Can you imagine?

— Sid Stewart, pastor of Hoover’s Grove Wesleyan Church, as reported by Yes! Weekly

Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.

Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.

You can email Bruce via the Contact Form.

Should Christians ALWAYS Obey God?

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obey god

If God commands a Christian to do something, should he obey? How does a Christian determine that it is God commanding him to do something? What if God’s command runs contrary to the Christian’s personal moral code? Should the Christian obey, anyway?

According to the Bible, God is holy, a divine being that cannot sin or do anything contrary to his character. However, the Bible also reveals that God can and does do immoral things. Knowing this to be true, shouldn’t Christians worry when God commands them to do something immoral? God commanded Abraham to murder his son, Isaac, on an altar — an immoral act if there ever was one. What if God commanded you, dear Christian, to put your child on a BBQ grill and offer him up as a sacrifice to God? Would you do it? Some Christian apologists suggest that God never intended Abraham to kill Isaac, but when asked to provide evidence for their claim, none is forthcoming.

I listen to several atheist call-in shows that ask Christians to call in and provide evidence for the existence of God, or to defend God’s approval of slavery, or God’s command to commit genocide. The Bible is littered with immoral commands from God, yet countless Christians defend God by saying, If God commanded it, it’s moral. Who are we to call the righteous, holy God of the universe immoral? God’s ways are not our ways, and God’s thoughts are not our thoughts, Christians say when defending the name of God. This, of course, reveals the fact that religious faith can and does make an adherent less moral. I don’t know of an atheist who defends genocide, child sacrifice, or slavery. As a humanist, I believe we should want and desire the well-being of others; that we should support laws and policies that promote human flourishing. Does genocide, child sacrifice, and slavery promote the well-being of others and human flourishing? Of course not. Yet, when God commands such things, all of a sudden, Christians lose all sense of what’s best for themselves and others.

The good news is that most Christians do not obey God. As cafeteria Christians, they pick and choose which commands to obey. That’s why they oppose genocide, child sacrifice, and slavery. Sadly, some Christians think that they should obey God regardless of the morality of said command. In their minds, whatever God commands is moral. How could it be otherwise, these Christians say?

Often, obeying God without question leads to abominable behavior; behavior that can and does land people in jail. Since there is no empirical way to determine whether God is commanding something, Christians should be aware of the fact that God will not be testifying at their trial when they are arrested for committing crimes. That voice in their heads telling them to “obey” is their own, not God’s. How could they possibly know otherwise?

Explicitly following every command in the Bible will land you in jail, as will your thinking the voice in your head is God Almighty. Most Christians have heard the ditty: God said it, I believe it, and that settles it for me. What a dangerous statement, one that leads to all sorts of immoral and criminal behavior.

Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.

Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.

You can email Bruce via the Contact Form.

Bruce’s Ten Hot Takes for May 21, 2025

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hot takes

The United States spends over a trillion dollars per year on defense and security. MAGA Republicans are determined to gut the federal government, but military and security spending is exempt from cuts. We show what we consider important by how we spend our money.

Congress plans to ban deep fake porn. This troubles me greatly. If passed, I won’t be able to make graphics of President Trump fucking the American people.

Hey, MAGA fans, Robert Kennedy, Jr. wants you to swim in a bacteria laden river or lake to boost your immune system. Dive in and open your mouth wide, Americans. Time to cull the herd.

Republican and Democratic legislators alike want criminalize speech in opposition to the nation of Israel. Criticizing Israel’s genocidal war against the Palestinian people is labeled antisemitic. It’s evident that most politicians couldn’t define the difference between antisemitism and anti-zionism if their lives depended on it.

Millions of Palestinians are hungry or starving. What does President Trump talk about? Building a glitzy monument to excess in the West Bank. Spoken like a man who has never missed a meal a day in his life.

Am I the only one who is embarrassed every time King Stupid opens his mouth to speak? His crazy rants remind me of conversations among patients at a state mental hospital.

Four months into the Trump presidency, I’ve concluded that the President is a bully who loves to cause people to fear what might happen to them if they dare go against him. As a result, many law firms, corporations, politicians, and media companies have stopped speaking truth to power. And like most bullies, Trump will fold if people and companies stand their ground. Why so many business leaders and politicians don’t understand this is perplexing, to say the least.

It is clear, at least to me, that former President Joe Biden never should have run for reelection. Had Democrats understood this earlier, they could have had a real primary to choose a candidate to run against Trump. I have no doubt that Kamala Harris would not have won the primary.

Any thoughts about battling climate change are over. President Trump is doing everything he can to destroy the climate. My grandchildren will pay the price for Trump’s anti-climate, anti- environment agenda. Species are dying off, and that includes us.

It’s summertime. Time to attend ballgames and concerts. Last week, we heard A Girl Named Tom. This week, we plan to hear The Fray. Other concerts on the schedule include 1985 (an 80s cover band), Killer Queen (a Queen cover band), Buffalo Rose, and Redferrin (country). Also on the schedule are minor league and Cincinnati Reds baseball games, dirt track car races, and plays, dance recitals, and baseball/softball games. Other concerts will be added later once they are announced.

Bonus: Want a kitten? We have eight of them. Two of last year’s feral cats had a litter of four kittens each. We do what we can for the stray and feral cats who visit our yard. However, we already have four cats — all strays — so we cannot take any more in. I plan to talk to the humane society about establishing a trap/neuter/release program for our community. The cats aren’t to blame; the assholes who abandoned them are. Someone told me that I should stop feeding the cats, and then they will go elsewhere. True, but I firmly believe I have a moral obligation to do what I can for the cats. All the cats survived the winter thanks to the heated boxes we put out for them. On some cold nights, there would be 4-5 cats in the boxes. I still felt sorry for them, but I’m glad they survived the winter.

Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.

Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.

You can email Bruce via the Contact Form.

The Lies Evangelical Preachers Tell About Deconstruction

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liar

Scores of Evangelical Christians are questioning their beliefs, leading to what is commonly called “deconstruction.” Deconstruction is a process used to carefully examine beliefs and practices. Some people who deconstruct stay in their chosen belief system. Changes are made around the edges, belief-wise, but core doctrines remain unchanged. Others leave Evangelicalism, moving on to different sects and beliefs. Many people choose to reject religions, embracing spiritualism instead. And for others, deconstruction leads to a rejection of Christianity altogether. Many of these people become agnostics or atheists.

As more and more Evangelicals deconstruct, preachers take to their pulpits to “explain” why people deconstruct. More often than not, these preachers lie through their teeth as they give reasons for people deconstructing.

Over the weekend, I listened to a number of preachers attempting to explain why people deconstruct and leave their churches. Without exception, these so-called men of God lied about those leaving the faith. These preachers may be ignorant about deconstruction, but facts are but a Google search away. At best, these preachers are lazy. At worst, their objective is to smear the character of former believers, using former Christians as sermon illustrations or using them as a warning sign from God. I have critics who do this very thing by saying my health problems are a warning sign from God. “Look at what happened to Bruce Gerencser,” these preachers say. The problem with this line of stupidity is that my health problems predate my loss of faith. Any time I have a serious problem in my life, Evangelicals will claim that God is judging me for my alleged rebellion against the Almighty. How these Nostradamuses know their pronouncements are true is never stated. When I draw my last breath, you can count on these same critics taking to the Internet and their pulpits to say that I am now burning in Hell, facing the just consequences of having a doubting, questioning mind.

By far, the number one reason Evangelical preachers give for why people deconstruct is that the church has hurt them. While church hurt certainly plays a part in the deconversion process, I don’t know of anyone who says that “hurt” is the sole reason for walking away from Christianity. That said, Evangelical churches are known for shooting the wounded, sometimes causing mortal wounds. Go ahead and cross the preacher or disagree with him and see what happens. Go ahead and do or say something that the church’s power brokers (and every church has them) object to and see what happens. Oh wait, you know what will happen, because you have experienced it. Dare to walk your own path, expressing questions and doubts, and you will find yourself marginalized, ostracized, or excommunicated. Why would people want to remain in churches where they are treated as outsiders?

Another reason preachers use to explain why people deconstruct is that they secretly want to sin. Specifically, those who deconstruct want to commit licentious sexual immorality. Numerous critics of mine say that I left Evangelicalism because I am a closeted gay man. This, of course, is patently untrue. I don’t know of anyone who deconverted solely did so because they wanted to “sin.” Besides, the church has lots of “sinners” in its midst. The Black Collar Crime Series records the criminal behavior of over a thousand preachers — mostly Evangelicals who committed sex crimes. I have yet to read an article or hear a sermon about the problem Evangelicalism has with sexual misconduct. Why not focus on the “sin” within instead of judging, criticizing, and condemning those who are without?

Let me give you one more reason Evangelical preachers give for why people deconstruct. Preachers love to paint those who deconstruct as ignorant, superficial people; people who know very little about the Bible. This, of course, is patently untrue. Most of the people I know who deconverted spent countless hours re-examining their beliefs. What these preachers are most upset about is that the deconversion process exposes the shallowness of their preaching and calls into question what they teach and preach. Worse, it reveals that most Evangelical preachers are unable or unwilling to answer serious, challenging questions about Christianity and the Bible. When no suitable answers are forthcoming, people are told to just faith-it; that in time, God will soothe all doubts and answer all questions. People might have to wait until they die and enter the Pearly Gates, but all questions will one day be answered.

Most people deconvert because Evangelical Christianity no longer makes sense to them. Why are preachers afraid to admit that this is the primary reason people deconvert? To do so would call into question their ministry; their teaching, preaching, and way of life. Instead of serious introspection, preachers blame those who have lost their faith. (Please see The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.)

If preachers truly want to know why people deconvert, I suggest that they actually talk to people who deconverted. Rarely does this happen. Most articles about deconversion are opinion pieces that lack any interviews with former Christians. Will preachers do this? Of course not. They have kingdoms and checkbooks to protect. I would love to be invited by local Evangelical churches to come share my journey from Evangelicalism to atheism. Surely, one former Christian’s testimony is no threat to the beliefs of others? Doesn’t the Bible say, “Greater is he that is in us, than he that is in the world?” I am no match for God, yet preachers fear that I will lead people astray if they ever hear from the horse’s mouth why I deconverted. Regardless, most Evangelicals have the Internet, and countless doubting/questioning Christians have contacted me for help. What reason do these people give for contacting me? Their pastors couldn’t or refused to answer their questions, or gave shallow, childish answers that they found unsatisfactory.

I suspect nothing will stem the tide of people deconstructing. It is clear, at least to me, that Evangelical churches/pastors/colleges have no answers for those who are desperately trying to hold on to their faith. Most doubters and questioners don’t want to deconvert, but the more they read and study, the more they realize that Evangelicalism no longer has answers for them. And when answers aren’t forthcoming, people will look elsewhere.

Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.

Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.

You can email Bruce via the Contact Form.

Why Can’t Atheists Keep Their Atheism to Themselves, Respecting the Beliefs of Others?

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change your mind

On weekends, I typically listen to podcasts by content creators such as The Line (including Matt Dillahunty and Jimmy Snow), Paulogia, The Atheist Experience, Talk Heathen, Skeptic Generation, SciManDan, MisterDeity, Rationality Rules (Stephen Woodford), Gutsick Gibbon, Genetically Modified Skeptic, Allegedly Ian, Forrest Valkai, Dan McClellan, Bart Ehrman, Alex O’Connor, Religion for Breakfast, and Justin (The Deconstruction Zone).

Many of these programs are call-in shows that encourage Christians to call in and defend their faith or answer questions about various teachings of the Bible. The answers upchucked by many of these Evangelical zealots are usually shallow, contradictory, and, at times, heretical. These defenders of the faith attend church multiple times a week, hearing the Word of God taught and preached. Some of the people who call in are pastors, evangelists, missionaries, and college professors. Sadly, many of their arguments and explanations are just as bad as people with no Bible college or seminary training. Some of these preachers need to quit preaching and go back to college to get a real education. Of course, a “real” education can and does lead to a loss of faith.

It is not uncommon for those who call these shows to complain about all the atheist programming on YouTube and TikTok. “Can’t you just keep your beliefs to yourself? Why do you have to cause people to doubt (or lose) their faith? Of course, when I put the shoe on the other foot and apply the same standard to Evangelicals, they stupidly think that only atheists should keep their mouths shut; that Evangelicals are commanded by God to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth. However, what is good for the proverbial goose is good for the gander.

One apologist bitterly moaned and complained that atheists were using the Internet to target children. Guilty, as charged, though most social media providers have rules that prohibit young children from using their services. If your eight-year-old son is watching The Atheist Experience on Sundays, that’s on you, parents. Or you might question why your children are watching atheist programs like the ones mentioned above. If Christian children are watching atheist shows, it is a sign that they are not getting the answers they need from their parents, pastors, and churches. Children are Internet savvy. They know that the answers to their questions are a few clicks away. I have had numerous Christian teenagers and young adults contact me. I have had a few youthful readers send me questions to answer for a Christian school project of theirs. I always politely and honestly answer their questions, planting seeds that I hope will sprout and grow in time. I don’t press, push, or evangelize. I’m content to answer their questions, hoping that they develop rational, skeptical thinking skills.

I have been repeatedly asked over the years to stop publicly telling my story; that I was causing people to lose their faith. Here’s what I know: if the mere telling of my story directly causes Evangelical Christians to deconvert, their faith was on shallow ground to begin with. Many people already have one foot out the church door before they stumble upon my content. Regardless, I have no intention to stop telling my story or critiquing Evangelical Christianity.

Unlike many Evangelical churches, questions are always welcome on this site. I will do my best to answer them, and if I can’t, I will point questioners to authors and websites that can. More times than I can count, I have recommended readers read one or more books by Dr. Bart Ehrman. I know that doing so is the cure for Christian Fundamentalism and Bible inerrancy. Sadly, most people whom I recommend Ehrman to refuse to read his books. Why? Their pastors warned them about reading Bart’s books lest they lose their faith. It is a shallow faith, indeed, if one book can cause you to lose it. No single book caused me to deconvert. It took numerous books and podcasts to lead me out of the doors of the church. I suspect many of the readers of this blog will say the same thing.

Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.

Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.

You can email Bruce via the Contact Form.