“Dr.” Arv Edgeworth, an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) evangelist, sent me another email. Here’s what he had to say
I have a question for you. I saw the list of IFB pastors and their sexual sins. I didn’t read any of the information, it would be too depressing. I know of a number of incidents like that in churches I have been associated with, sad to say. However, in your opinion, which should be considered worse: an IFB preacher who was guilty of sexual misconduct; or an IFB preacher who did a complete turn around and denied Christ, and tried to get others to do the same thing? Sexual misconduct, or spiritual misconduct? In your opinion, which would do the most damage?
I assume that Edgeworth is talking about the Black Collar Crime series. Edgeworth wants to know which is worse: an IFB preacher who raped church children or an IFB preacher (me) who deconverted and now tries to get others to do the same? What’s worse, Edgeworth asks, sexual misconduct or spiritual misconduct? I assume he thinks “spiritual” misconduct is worse because it leads to eternal consequences.
Let me be clear, sexual misconduct in all its forms is morally wrong and often leads to lifelong consequences. IFB churches are notorious for ignoring or covering up sex crimes. Worse, offenders often leave the churches where the offenses occurred and move on to other churches. More than a few IFB churches are pastored by preachers who have committed sex crimes. God has forgiven them of their sin. How dare anyone keep them from their calling! God forgives and forgets, and so should we. Or so the thinking goes, anyway.
Edgeworth’s claim that I committing spiritual misconduct is absurd. Am I taking advantage of people? Am I fulfilling the lusts of my flesh by spiritually assaulting and raping people? Of course not. I am just one man with a story to tell. I am not an evangelist for atheism. All I do is share my story and carefully examine the central claims of Evangelical Christianity. I write, people read. I have never forced myself or my beliefs on another person.
How is it spiritual abuse to encourage people to rationally think for themselves? Shouldn’t that be the goal for Christians and unbelievers alike? Edgeworth will search in vain for one post that remotely suggests that I tried to get Christians to deny the Messiah. Have some people said that my writing played an instrumental part in their deconversion? Sure, but all I did was answer their questions. Or maybe my personal testimony resonated with them. Regardless, I have never forced anyone to deny Jesus and become an atheist.
Should I not tell my story, Arv? You came to my blog and told yours. Why is it okay for Evangelicals to go from IP address to IP address, preaching the gospel, even to people who have no interest in what they are peddling? I have been told several times that I should shut up and keep my story to myself. One preacher told me he feared that if people read my story that they would deconvert. Really? Am I so powerful that my words carry such power — more powerful than God — that they can cause people to lose their salvation? Trust me, I am not that powerful. More often, my writing is just one step in the process of deconversion.
Instead of worrying about Evangelical-preachers-turned-atheists leading IFB church members astray, I would worry more about sexual predators who have infiltrated churches, using the love, kindness, and forgiveness of congregants to hide their evil actions. Sadly, church members can be naive, thinking a man of God would never, ever commit a sex crime. This is a delusion, one that leads to harm, both to church members who are abused and to vulnerable adults who are taken advantage of.
I should add that if anyone is committing spiritual abuse, it is IFB preachers. I could spend months talking about preachers who spiritually abused the churches — myself included. That’s what cults do.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
In 2007, as a Christian — barely — who was struggling with his faith, I started blogging. For a time, I found the Emergent (or Emerging) Church a welcome respite from Evangelical Christianity, but I eventually found its core beliefs lacking too. A year later, I publicly announced that I was an agnostic, and a few months later, an atheist. I dropped the “agnostic” moniker because I got tired of having to explain repeatedly what the word meant. Currently, I self-identify as an agnostic atheist.
As a Christian blogger, I was repeatedly attacked and harassed by Evangelicals for my “liberal” beliefs — both theologically and politically. Then, as now, Evangelicals took one of two positions about my “faith.”
I never was a Christian.
I am still a Christian, but under the chastisement of God.
In November 2008, I attended church for the last time. Throughout my journey from Evangelicalism to atheism, I have blogged about my experiences and beliefs. Countless Evangelicals have come to this site, determined to set me straight about my beliefs. Thousands of emails, blog comments, and social media messages later, I have noticed certain tactics Evangelicals use to repudiate or evangelize me. Evangelicals are, if anything, predictable. And, to be fair, all of us can be predictable. I know I am, though I generally try to engage people where they are. That said, I’ve become quite adept at sniffing out motivations. I’ve had commenters go out of their way to “hide” their Evangelical beliefs. Often, they will try to suck me in with science or philosophy arguments — which is all the rage on YouTube. Usually, I don’t engage in discussions or debates about the existence of God or the beginning of the universe. I know some readers revel in such subjects, but, for me, I’m not that interested. Not that I lack knowledge sufficient to engage in such discussions. I am confident that I can hold my own. I just don’t find these discussions interesting. Rarely do they lead to satisfying conclusions. So I try to stay focused on Evangelicalism (and the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church movement) and the teachings of the Bible.
When commenters try to hide their Evangelical beliefs, I’ve become pretty good at cutting through their philosophical bullshit, forcing them to admit that they are not arguing for a generic deity, but the God of the Bible. Once they admit they are Evangelicals who base their beliefs on the teachings of the inspired, inerrant, and infallible Bible, I am ready to have a discussion with them. Sometimes, I will even grant their philosophical beliefs and then ask them how they connect this cosmic deity of theirs to the God of the Bible. Once trapped inside the pages of the Bible, it’s easier to discuss their beliefs.
This brings me to “Dr.” Arv Edgeworth. Edgeworth is an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) evangelist from Ohio. Over the past several days, I have received numerous emails from Edgeworth, as has Carolyn, my editor. Edgeworth’s emails had an accusatory, judgmental tone, which is typical coming from IFB preachers. I have directly and pointedly answered Edgeworth’s emails (which you can read in the previous posts in this series). Not because I thought I could make a dent in Edgeworth’s thinking — you don’t argue Fundamentalist Baptists out of their beliefs. I’m content to engage such people, hoping that responses will be beneficial to others — especially lurkers. I have had Evangelical zealots who have engaged me in word-to-word combat return months later, admitting they were wrong or that they treated me poorly. I am always grateful when someone apologizes for their boorish behavior. Sadly, this doesn’t happen very often.
Unfortunately, some Evangelicals use their apologies as a ploy. This has happened often enough that I have a hard time accepting Evangelical apologies as genuine. The first question that comes to my mind is this: Is this a genuine apology? The second question is this: What are their motivations? Take Revival Fires (RF). RF is a terrible example of what it means to be a Christian. He has sent me numerous emails and left scores of comments on this site. He is a nasty, vile son of a bitch; someone who loves posting comments detailing prison rape and scat. Several years ago, I called out his behavior, using Bible verses to show that his behavior was not consistent with the teachings of the Bible. Afterward, I received a nice, respectful email from RF. He wanted to be “friends” with me. My response? Are you fucking kidding me? You shit on my doorstep, piss in my corn flakes, attack and harass my wife and children, and you want me to befriend you? Go fuck yourself. And get some therapy. Soon, RF went back to his putrid ways.
Other Evangelicals have taken this approach with me — mainly Independent Fundamentalist Baptists. I’ve received numerous apologies, only to have the person apologizing return to their hateful ways days or weeks later. As a result of past experiences, I am hesitant to believe people when they suddenly apologize after being so hostile towards me. Is their apology genuine? Time will tell, and I have found that most of them return to their hateful ways. Why? I can’t be certain, but I suspect hatred is part of their religious DNA. The IFB church movement, for example, is built upon a foundation of hate; not just ideas or beliefs, but people and institutions. When a Christian is exposed to this kind of thinking week after week, it is almost impossible for them to change their thinking. Possible, but hard. Typically, lasting change requires leaving the IFB church movement.
I’m sure you are thinking, Bruce, what the hell does this have to do with Arv Edgeworth? I know, I know, I’m a long-winded preacher. 🙂 Yesterday, I received the following email from Edgeworth:
I want to apologize, I have been pretty judgmental in my attitude, and I assumed some things I shouldn’t have. Sorry about that. In spite of our differences, maybe we can reach some common ground.
After this statement, Edgeworth took a conciliatory, friendly approach, attempting to connect with me. He sent me several more emails taking a similar tact. Is Edgeworth being genuine? I have no way of knowing. Time will tell. I certainly accept his apology, but the value of any apology is determined by how a person acts going forward. I don’t expect Edgeworth to agree with me or change his beliefs. What I do expect is that he treats me with respect and lets me tell my story on my own terms. I have had many delightful conversations with Christians over the years; people I had little in common with. It is possible for Evangelicals and atheists to get along. Possible, but not easy. Probable? Not likely, but I feel I should at least try to find common ground with people who hold different beliefs than mine. I’m not a debater. I prefer friendly back-and-forth discussions, say over dinner or a beer at the local pub. Sadly, many Evangelicals (and some atheists) take this approach instead:
This scene from Mars Attacks! — one of my favorite movies — shows how many people approach discussions about religion (and politics). I have no interest in eviscerating Evangelicals, including Edgeworth. I accept his apology, but time will tell whether it is genuine. If he reverts to the IFB norm, it is only a matter of time before I say or write something that will offend his Holy Ghost sensibilities. How will he react? I know how IFB preachers before him have acted, but maybe, just maybe, he will be an exception to the rule.
The ball is in Arv’s court. Will he see the ball? I don’t know, since he has repeatedly told me that he doesn’t plan to read this blog. That’s on him. I am more than willing to engage him in thoughtful discussion. One thing is for sure, Arv will get a lot more exposure as a result of our interaction. 🙂 I just did a Google Search on “Arv Edgeworth.” Three days in, and this site is already the third search result. 🙂 All praise be to Loki.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
What follows is my response to another email from Independent Fundamentalist Evangelist Arv Edgeworth
Mr. Gerencser,
So nice to hear from you. I don’t read your blog so I won’t be reading your replies to my emails to Carolyn. I read your “Why” section, and all I saw was poor logic on your account, so I have no desire to read any further.
That’s up to you. Remember, you came to this site and then emailed me.
You claim I use poor logic, yet you provide no evidence for your claim. What laws of logic have I violated?
Bruce, you blame God and the “Church” for you neglecting your family. I have known several pastors who built strong ministries, and they had strong family ties, and I saw no evidence they neglected their families in any way. I’m sorry you neglected yours. But that is on YOU, not God.
I don’t blame “God.” He is a myth, so it would be foolish to blame a mythical being for something that happened in my life. I accept full responsibility for the choices I have made throughout my life. Part of accepting responsibility is determining why a certain decision was made. From this perspective, my pastors, professors, and the churches I pastored all played a part in how I neglected my family. I was indoctrinated and conditioned to view the world a certain way. The same goes for how I viewed my calling and the work of the ministry. I can’t be at fault for practicing what I was taught or what was modeled to me by my pastors and peers. I did what I thought was right in the eyes of God. Over time, my thinking changed. How I viewed the ministry in 1976 was very different from the way I viewed it in 1997. Unfortunately, Edgeworth does what many of my critics do: he takes a snapshot of a certain point in my life and applies it to the sum of my life, not allowing for change as I got older and matured.
I was a Creation evangelist for over 20 years, giving over 450 seminars in 27 different states. Sometimes my wife couldn’t go with me because she was our church secretary for 27 years, but she is my best friend, and we are both close to our kids. We will celebrate 60 wonderful years of marriage this week.
Okay? I’m not sure what the point is. We all have a storyline. In my case, I was saved at the age of fifteen and called to preach several weeks later. In the fall of 1976, I enrolled in classes at Midwestern Baptist College in Pontiac, Michigan — an IFB college started in 1954 by Dr. Tom Malone. (Malone, by the way, had an earned doctorate from an accredited state school.) While at Midwestern, I met a beautiful IFB preacher’s daughter. Two years later, we married, and this July we will celebrate forty-seven years of wedded bliss. We are blessed to have six adult children, sixteen grandchildren, and four cats.
My ministerial career of twenty-five years took my partner and me to Evangelical churches (IFB, Southern Baptist, Sovereign Grace Baptist, Christian Union, and Nondenominational) in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. I left the ministry in 2005 and converted from Christianity in 2008. I am now an atheist and a humanist.
You claim you had an intimate relationship with Christ for many years, but now claim He never existed. It can’t be both.
People change their minds. When I was a Christian, I had an intimate relationship with Jesus. I was a sincere follower of Christ. And now I am an atheist. I learned over the years that religious faith is complex; that people, myself included, can hold beliefs that are not true.
I have never said Jesus wasn’t a real person. I am not a mythicist. I think Jesus was a Jewish apocalyptic preacher who was executed for his opposition to the Roman government. He was buried in an unknown grave, never to be seen or heard from again. What I reject are the supernatural claims made for Jesus.
You blame God for all bad things in the world, then claim God doesn’t exist. More bad logic?
If God is the sovereign creator of the universe, then, yes, he is responsible for the good and bad that happens in the world. I can make a solid theological argument for this claim; a belief, by the way, I held when I was a pastor.
I can easily defend my past beliefs if challenged. After all, the Bible can be used to prove almost anything.
Like I told Carolyn, you blaming God for everything bad, would be like me seeing a smashed Chevy and no longer believing in General Motors as a great company because they build automobiles that can be smashed by humans. Poor logic.
If God is in control of all things, then, yes, God is responsible for everything, including automobiles.
If Edgeworth wants to discuss or debate this issue, I am game.
You might want to reconsider being an atheist though, if God doesn’t exist then you can’t blame Him for all your failures and the failures of other people. Then the responsibility for you neglecting your family falls only on you. If God doesn’t exist, then you can’t blame Him for creating a world where bad things can happen.
As I have repeatedly stated, I accept responsibility for every decision I have ever made. I have been honest and open about the churches I pastored, detailing both my successes and failures. That said, I refuse to accept blame for things that were not my fault or over which I had no control.
As an atheist and a humanist, I accept and understand that bad things can and do happen, not only to me but to other people. I have had a rough road in life. Life is what it is. All I know to do is to learn from past experiences. I wouldn’t wish my childhood on anyone. Sure, I survived, but not without a hell of a lot of deep wounds and scars. As a 68-year-old man, most of my struggles these days are health-related. I have gastroparesis and exocrine pancreatic insufficiency — both incurable — osteoarthritis, fibromyalgia, and degenerative spine disease (that has left me with widespread disc damage in my neck and spine). In August, I had major surgery on my spine. Virtually every moment of my waking hours is dominated by debilitating pain and illness. I should note, before a Christian reader suggests that my health problems are God’s judgment for my unbelief, I started having health problems years before I deconverted. Countless prayers were uttered asking for deliverance or relief, without success.
I won’t be reading your blog that I am sure will be filled with more bad logic, but if you wish to communicate via emails that would be fine. I hope you get things straightened out in your mind so you can put things in proper perspective.
As far as getting straightened out, I am as “straight” as I can be. One hundred percent heterosexual. 🙂
When Edgeworth says “proper perspective” he means seeing things as he does, believing as he does. Remember, certainty breeds arrogance, and there’s nothing more arrogant than expecting and demanding that others believe as you do. That said, I am more than happy to embrace Edgeworth’s beliefs, provided he can give me empirical evidence for his claims. It’s really that simple. I operate on evidence. My goal is to believe as many true things as possible. That’s why I deconverted. The central claims of Christianity no longer made any sense to me. I expand my thinking on this subject in the post titled The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.
We humans mess up sometimes. Blaming a God Who you say doesn’t exist isn’t the answer. Just curious, will you be worshiping the Easter Bunny next Sunday?
I have sufficiently addressed your false claim above. Again, let me be clear, I give blame and credit to whom blame and credit are due. I do, however, worship my wife. Now, there’s a God worthy of worship. 🙂
Unlike Edgeworth, I do not worship inanimate or mythical beings.
Bruce, what you BELIEVE isn’t the REALITY of the way things ACTUALLY are. I know it makes things easier for you in the make-believe world you have built for yourself, which removes a lot of the responsibility for yourself.
Says who? What evidence do you have for this claim other than that you have convinced yourself that your worship and fealty to a mythical being is “reality.” It’s not. I am a materialist. Since God is an immaterial being and you cannot provide empirical evidence for his existence, “God” is not a part of reality (outside of having to live and interact with people who believe God exists and is personally involved in their lives).
Life is actually much harder for humanists. As a Christian, every belief and action was parsed through the teachings of the Bible. What the Bible said was all that mattered. THUS SAITH THE LORD! As a humanist, I have to develop carefully the moral and ethical framework by which I live my life. There are no humanist Ten Commandments, no humanist standard.
If God does exist, you messed up. But guess what, if God doesn’t exist, you still messed up and are still messing up. But now you are also responsible for all the people you are misleading. If you cared about others, instead of just yourself, you would want them to know the REAL TRUTH. Your whole blog or website is based on bad logic and delusion, and is leading people away from God instead of toward Him.
In what way am I “misleading” people? All I know to do is share my story. I don’t try to convert people to atheism. That said, scores of people have told me that I played a part in their deconversion. I don’t preach at people. I don’t comment on Christian websites. Seventeen years ago, I started blogging. My goal then is the same today: to honestly and openly share my story, answer questions people might have about Evangelical Christianity, and to help and encourage people who have deconverted.
If this blog is based on bad logic and delusion, I suggest Edgeworth either deconstruct my story and posts on his website or start a blog to do the same. He makes all sorts of claims about me, yet provides no evidence to support his contentions.
I wish you well. If you were ever IN the body of Christ, you can never be OUT of the body of Christ, that much is sure. You will be in HEAVEN someday, but think of all those who may not be because of your DELUSION, and anger, which should be directed mostly at yourself, not God.
Answered, answered, answered.
If there is a God, according to the IFB gospel, I will go to Heaven when I die. Awesome, right? Thousands of people who read this blog will someday be in Heaven, too. What a party we will have; millions of Atheist Christians praising logic, reason, skepticism, and common sense for their glorious deliverance from the bondage of Evangelical Christianity, complete with rock music, Holy Ghost marijuana, and a free grace bar. And what will Jesus do? He will probably join us. 🙂
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
I was intimate with my lover for many, many years.
My wife and children know about the affair. I am so sorry for all the hurt and damage my illicit relationship caused. That my wife and children stood by me all these years is a wonderful testimony to their love for me. I don’t deserve it.
My mistress and I carried on for a long, long time. She would follow me wherever I moved: Ohio, Texas, Michigan. She was always right there for me.
My mistress is a lot older than I am. She is what is commonly called a cougar.
The sex was great. The only problem was I could never satisfy her. The more sex we had, the more she wanted. She was quite the nymphomaniac. I had a suspicion she was having sex with other people (she was bisexual) but it didn’t matter. What WE had was special. She treated me as if I was the ONLY one.
Over the years, we made a lot of promises to each other. We are going to do this or that, go here or go there. But neither I nor my mistress delivered on our promises.
I gave my mistress a lot of money. She deserved it, or so I thought. Yet, no matter how much money I gave her, she always wanted more. She would often tell me “Prove that you love me, Bruce.” So I would give her more money. I began to wonder if she was a prostitute and I was a john. My wife and children suffered because I gave so much money to her. I justified their destitution by telling myself that my affair was what gave me purpose and meaning in life. Without it, I might as well be dead.
I deceived myself for a long time, convinced that what my mistress and I had was real. After all, she made me feel alive. She gave me self-worth. When we were together it seemed as if time stopped and we were transported into the heavens.
One day, I began to have doubts about my affair. The sex was great, but there is more to life than sex. I certainly enjoyed the company of my mistress, and boy, she sure could cook, but I still felt quite empty when I was away from her.
I began to think about all the sacrifices I made for my mistress: all the money I gave her; the loss of a close, intimate relationship with my wife and children. Was it worth it? Since my mistress got the best of me, all my family got was leftovers. By the time I came home to them, I was too tired, too busy, and too broke to give them what they needed and deserved.
A decade or so ago, after much self-judgment and reflection, I ended the affair. I sold all of the mementos of our torrid relationship. I told my mistress that I could no longer be in a relationship with her. She didn’t even get angry, or for that matter, even care. She told me “There are plenty of other people who would love to have me in their lives. Your loss, Bruce.”
So we parted ways,
My wife and I, along with our children, are trying to rebuild our family. The damage done by this affair is incalculable. I can only hope that, with time, the wounds will be healed.
I should warn all of you about my mistress. She is always on the prowl looking for someone new to entice and bed.
Her name?
The Church.
By the way, I thought the above quoted post was some of my finest writing. Others certainly think so.
What follows is my response to his latest email.
Edgeworth replied:
I read it all the way through before, but somehow “her name” and “the Church” with spaces in between didn’t sink in. He had sex with the Church? The sex was great with the Church? Really? A bit misleading don’t you think?
He gave his mistress a lot of money, but complains he never got paid much money from the small churches he pastored, if he got paid at all?
The Church isn’t a building. If Bruce was saved he is part of that church, the body of Christ, that He bled and died for. He can never become not a part of that church. He may choose to not serve Christ but can never not be a part of the church. That relationship is everlasting.
How exactly in his mind did he have sex with “the Church”?
If Bruce neglected his family, that is on him. I have lovingly served my Lord and Savior for over 50 years, but always tried to give my family the attention they needed. But I guess it is easier for Bruce to just blame God for him neglecting his family. Maybe it eases his conscience somehow.
Neglect of his relationship with Christ is far worse.
Evidently, Edgeworth has a hard time recognizing satire — sadly, a common problem with Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) Christians. Their wooden, literalistic way of thinking keeps them from understanding satire (or jokes). Life is too short to go without satire and humor.
I gave a lot of money to the churches I pastored, even when they couldn’t or wouldn’t pay me a living wage, with benefits. (I often worked a full-time secular job while also working at the church full-time.) I pastored churches that ranged in attendance from the 50s to more than 200. Some congregations were dirt poor and couldn’t pay me a living wage. The church I pastored in southeast Ohio grew to over 200 hundred people, yet only exceeded $40,000 income one time. Most years, the church took in less than $30,000. They paid me what they could, and because I put ministry and calling before my pocketbook, I never concerned myself with what I made. In retrospect, I should have. My family suffered because I put Jesus/Church/Christian school/preaching/soulwinning first.
I take full responsibility for the choices I made in the ministry. If I had it to do it all over again, I would do it differently. That said, several of the churches I pastored could have paid me more, but they were content to give me two chickens and a $20 bill. The most I made was $26,000 a year, with the church of 200 members providing a mobile home for my family and me to live in. No insurance, no retirement plan, no benefits. The church could have easily paid me three times what they did but chose not to. Do I blame God? Of course not. The blame rests squarely with the church.
It’s good to know, according to Edgeworth’s profane theology, that I am still a Christian. Once saved, always saved, right? I’m so glad Edgeworth told me the “church is not a building.” OMG! If only I had known that. Sigh. (Why I Use the Word “Sigh.”) According to Edgeworth, I am in a marriage that I can’t get out of, even though my spouse abused and ignored me. No divorce, even if I no longer believe in the existence of the God of the Bible. No divorce, even if I mock, make fun of, and blaspheme God. No divorce, even if I deny that Jesus is the son of God, or that he was born of a virgin, worked countless miracles, died on a Roman cross, resurrected from the dead 48-72 hours later, and later ascended to Heaven, never to be seen again. Any reasonable, logical person would conclude that I am not a Christian. But, Edgeworth’s peculiar theology gets in the way of him exercising rational thinking and common sense.
I don’t blame God for anything. How could I, since he doesn’t exist? The same goes for blaming Satan — another mythical being. I am a big proponent of personal responsibility. Just ask my children and grandchildren. “Grandpa, I can’t find my shoes (wanting me to find them).” They know I will say, “Who had them last?” Personal responsibility training starts young. To the degree that I am culpable, I accept full responsibility. However, I refuse to let churches and individual Christians off the hook for their shitty, unchristian behavior. When people complain about how I have portrayed them in my writing, I tell them, “You should have treated me better.” 🙂 Want to be well thought of? Act accordingly.
I never had “literal” sex with God. Get it in your head, Arv, it’s satire. Now, if you want to know if I ever made love to my partner anywhere on church property — wink, wink, I ain’t telling 🙂 Oh, those were the days!
Edgeworth ended his email with yet another threat of Hell. I wonder if he really thinks this puts the “fear of God” in me. I assure him that I do not fear a nonexistent deity. I am generally not fearful of anything. Well, outside of my wife. She wields a pretty mean Lodge cast-iron skillet. If Polly starts watching The Burning Bed on repeat, then I might fear her. 🙂 If anyone could cause me to fear, it is Evangelical Christians; so-called worshippers of the Prince of Peace who have threatened me with violence — including murder. These so-called Christ followers have also threatened my partner, our six adult children, and our sixteen grandchildren. They have tracked them down on the Internet and sent them hateful, nasty emails.
To Arv I say, if you plan to respond, stop psychoanalyzing me. You aren’t qualified to do so, and I regularly see a therapist who is more than capable of helping me with my mental health.
Do better, Arv, do better. If you want to have a thoughtful conversation with me, I’m game. If your plan is more of the same, don’t bother.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
“Dr.” Arv Edgeworth recently sent me the following comment:
Hi Bruce,
I am interested. Would you be willing to share with me why you left Christianity, and now consider yourself an atheist? I promise not to be judgmental. I honestly would like to see things from your perspective. My wife and I live in Southwest Ohio, and next week will be celebrating our 60th anniversary. I wish you well.
I am an evangelist. In the last 14 years I have spoken in over 300 independent, fundamental Baptist churches in 25 different states. I have spent a great deal of time discussing doctrinal issues with those pastors. I have also discussed standards of dress and conduct with them. I send out a newsletter to about 2100 independent, fundamental, Baptist churches nation-wide.
Edgeworth operates the Truth and Science website — a site devoted to young earth creationism and debunking evolution.
Many years ago, Dr. Arv Edgeworth was asked to head up a Six-Step Problem Solving team for the General Motors Corporation. As part of his training he was taught in the proper use of the Scientific Method. His team had a 100% success rate. His love of science grew. He then began collecting science textbooks, collecting over 150 of them. He also collected, about 80 other books about science. He began to be very burdened over the Creation vs Evolution issue. In January of 1997, God called him into Creation Evangelism.
Dr. Edgeworth has given over 450 seminars on the Creation vs Evolution issue in churches and schools in 27 different states. He now sends newsletters to thousands of scientists, science teachers, pastors, churches, and many others.
In his first email to me, Edgeworth asks me why I left Christianity and why I consider myself an atheist. I find such questions annoying. Even a superficial perusal of this site would direct a person to the page WHY? On this page are numerous articles answering Edgeworth’s questions. Alas, many Evangelicals lack curiosity, as I make clear in a post titled Curiosity, A Missing Evangelical Trait.
Edgeworth promised not to be judgmental if I responded to his email, but as you will see below, he failed to keep his word.
I did not respond to Edgeworth; my editor, Carolyn, did. Carolyn has been my editor for years. When I am not feeling well — and currently in a tough spot physically — Carolyn will answer some of my emails, especially those that can be answered without theological or philosophical responses. Edgeworth asked a question, to which Carolyn, my Internet wife, replied:
Mr. Edgeworth,
I am Bruce’s editor and sometimes-answerer of his emails. Please read all the links on the Why page on Bruce’s blog, The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser, and you will have an understanding of why and how he left Christianity. The short answer is that after he retired, he began to examine all of the tenets of Christianity and how they didn’t fit together and how they contradicted one another, and he reached the point where he no longer believes in the basics of Christianity — the virgin birth, the miracles Jesus supposedly performed, his alleged resurrection, heaven, hell, angels, satan, etc. The more he examined, the more he realized he didn’t believe. He cannot worship a god who would have a hell and a lake of fire where a god tortures certain people for eternity after our relatively short stay on earth.
Carolyn Patrick, editor for Bruce Gerencser
Excellent response. Short and to the point, directing Edgeworth to where he could find fuller explanations for why I converted.
Of course, Edgeworth couldn’t be bothered to do his homework — yet he wants everyone on this site to read his website. He shows no awareness of my background or that I was a college-trained IFB/Evangelical pastor for twenty-five years. There’s nothing in my story that remotely suggests I was a liberal Christian; that I had head knowledge, but had never been born again. Both of these claims are patently false.
The “non-judgmental” Edgeworth is, in fact, judgmental, consigning me to Hell because I don’t believe as he does. He predicts (and knows for sure) that I am headed for Hell and assumes the same about Carolyn.
Here’s what he said:
Hi Carolyn,
Thank you for your reply concerning why Bruce left “Christianity” and became an atheist. The things you told me about Bruce seem to indicate clearly that Bruce may have had a head knowledge about God, and considered himself to be a “Christian,” but has never experienced the new birth. That often happens if someone is in a liberal denomination that does not preach and teach the true gospel. They are “Christians” in name only.
I can predict one thing for sure. Bruce will believe in God, and heaven and hell in the future: one moment after he dies. It is a terrible thing for Bruce that he never experienced true Christianity. How about you Carolyn? Would you like to be 100% sure about your eternity? You can be. You owe it to yourself and to Bruce to at least check it out. I hope you and Bruce have a great eternity. Eternity is a long time to be wrong! Please check this out for yourself. You will be eternally grateful that you did!
Are you telling me that you relied only on my writing to make the decision that Bruce had “head knowledge” but didn’t experience a “new birth”? Are you telling me that you didn’t read the links on the Why page of Bruce’s blog? If so, SHAME ON YOU! Don’t take my word for it, read Bruce’s own words, his own writing. I am fully convinced that Bruce was born again when he was 15 and had a personal relationship with Jesus for more than 25 years. Bruce was not in a liberal denomination but was the pastor of several Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) churches. He preached and taught the true gospel. He would have been a Trump supporter in his Christian days.
I am an agnostic atheist. I have no belief in any god or gods – not yours, not the Catholic god, not the Pentecostal god, not the Episcopalian god, not the Baptist god, not the Methodist god, not the Mormon god . . . . Need I go on? I have no belief in any god. If scientifically valid evidence were presented to me by a god, I might (or might not) believe in her, but as things stand now, I have seen no evidence for the existence of any god, and I therefore have no belief in any god. I am 100% sure about my eternity, and yours too. Yours will be the same as mine and Bruce’s.
Carolyn Patrick, editor for Bruce Gerencser
Edgeworth replied (relevant parts quoted):
Hi Carolyn,
I have finished reading most of the “Why” section on Bruce’s blog. I did skim through a few things, just focusing on the most important. I then compared them with the things you said about yourself. I hope you won’t mind if I try to put a few things into perspective.
…
Your Beliefs and Bruce’s
Bruce refers to himself as an atheist. You refer to yourself as an agnostic atheist. All of this is based on what you choose to believe. The same can be said for the evolutionist. What I don’t see in any of this is a sincere desire to know the TRUTH. Where does REALITY fit into any of this? What about the REALITY of what actually happened in the past, is happening now, or will happen in the future? Does that matter to you?
I have a PASSION for TRUTH! Judging from what you have said: It doesn’t appear that either you or Bruce have any desire to actually KNOW what the TRUTH is. The word “science” means “to know.” It doesn’t mean “to believe.” You and Bruce have every right to choose to believe what you want to. But what about the TRUTH about what actually IS?
The existence of God is based in the REALITY of what actually is. What anyone chooses to believe or not believe has no bearing on the REALITY of what actually is. That is why the Supreme Court ruled that Atheism is a religion. At least they got that one right. Just my personal belief.
For example: You say that my eternity will be the same as both yours and Bruce’s. That isn’t something that you know or can be known is it? You may choose to BELIEVE that, but it will have no effect on the REALITY of what actually IS.
Evolution Can Be Easily Disproven!
I could give you the scientific evidence to prove that. The real facts though seldom result in people changing their mind about what they have chosen to believe. God exists, but He will only prove that to you if you are honestly seeking the TRUTH.
We all fit into one of two categories:
(1) An honest seeker of TRUTH.
(2) A protector of a BELIEF SYSTEM.
What you choose to believe, has no effect on the REALITY of what actually IS. I wish nothing but the best for both of you. The TRUTH really will set you free.
In Search of the TRUTH,
Dr. Arv Edgeworth
Several hours later, Edgeworth wrote:
Hi Carolyn,
I was curious how you could feel so confident Bruce at one time was a born-again Christian unless you had perhaps experienced the same thing yourself. Do you have a story to tell?
Using Bruce’s logic though, if I were to observe a smashed Chevrolet, I would contact General Motors and tell them I could no longer believe in them as a great company because they build automobiles that people can smash. In fact, I am beginning to believe that they no longer exist, or perhaps never did. Same logic?
Also, for a fundamental Baptist preacher to pastor several churches while at the same time, having a mistress on the side, and the probable guilt and shame that he carried with him, but claim that had nothing to do with where he is at today, might lead someone to think he is delusional, at least to himself. But I do not judge him for that, we all fail at times.
By the way, do you know why God gave us the 10 Commandments? To prove to us that we couldn’t keep them, and needed a Savior to die in our place.
But having said all I have, I can guarantee, based on the infallible Word of God, that God still loves both of you, and desires nothing but the very best for your lives. That will never change, because God never changes. He may choose to operate differently at times, but He is unchangeable. He is a God you can trust, no matter how certain experiences may lead you to believe otherwise.
God could have built a bunch of robots that would always do right, but in accordance with His love, justice, mercy, and wisdom, He choose to form the Earth to be inhabited by fallible humans such as you and I.
As the loving father welcomed the prodigal son with open arms, God will do the same for you.
In Christian Love,
Certainty — a foundational belief for IFB Christians — breeds arrogance, and Edgeworth is certainly that. Without getting into a long debate, let me answer several of Edgeworth’s claims.
About my “chosen” beliefs. It is debated whether any of us chooses to believe. For the sake of argument, I will accept Edgeworth’s claim that I chose to be an atheist. I chose to be an atheist based on my careful, painful re-examination of the central claims of Christianity. This was me seeking TRUTH. Edgeworth seems unaware that I am a college-trained pastor, spent twenty-five years in the ministry, preached over 4,000 sermons, and spent over 20,000 hours reading and studying the Bible. It is disingenuous for Edgeworth to claim that I was not a sincere seeker of truth. You are fucking kidding me, right? I have spent more time and effort in understanding the teachings of the Bible than most Christians, including preachers. What, exactly, does Edgeworth think I “missed?” He has no evidence for his claims about my life. He asked for no clarifications and made little to no effort to understand my story. To Edgeworth, I say, the triune God of the Bible said: Answering before listening is both stupid and rude. (Proverbs 18:13) Do better, Edgeworth, do better. I am not your typical atheist. I am not ignorant about Christian theology or church history. I am conversant in all things Christian.
I am baffled as to why Edgeworth brings up evolution. What I believe about the beginning of the universe and how best to explain the natural world has nothing to do with atheism. Atheism is a singular claim about the lack of existence of deities. That’s it. I know several Christians who accept evolution as a scientific fact. Thus, one can believe the core doctrines of Christianity and evolution at the same time. To suggest otherwise means that salvation is by “right belief” and not faith.
I am a sincere seeker of truth. Edgeworth can’t accept this fact, of course, because it doesn’t comport with his peculiar claims. That my proverbial peg doesn’t fit in his hole is his problem, not mine. If Edgeworth wants to challenge my beliefs, I’m game. I am, however, not interested in discussions with people who do not respect me enough to accept my story at face value. Edgeworth says he’s a Christian. As a man who respects others, I accept his story at face value. It would be nice if Edgeworth would do the same. I know, I know, Edgeworth is an IFB preacher. Scores of Edgeworths have emailed me and commented on this site. I have generally found IFB preachers to be “Assholes for Jesus.”
In his last email, Edgeworth questioned whether I was a real Christian since I admitted to having an affair! This ludicrous and false statement suggests that Edgeworth did not carefully read the posts on the WHY? page. Had he done so, he would have learned that the post It’s Time to Tell the Truth: I Had an Affair is satirical.
Edgeworth mentions the Ten Commandments and the infallibility of the Bible, as well as arrogantly saying, based on evidence he does not have, nor can he possibly have, “I can guarantee, based on the infallible Word of God, that God still loves both of you, and desires nothing but the very best for your lives.”
How could Edgeworth possibly know that God still loves me and desires nothing but the best for my life? Does he know the mind of God? How does he know I’m not a reprobate or an apostate? I can definitively prove that I am both — gladly so. And as far as the Protestant Bible being (inerrant) and infallible, give me a break. That claim carries no weight and can easily be disproven. Edgeworth is King James Only. I assume he believes the KJV is infallible too, and not just the original manuscripts — which are not extant.
To Edgeworth, I say, if you want to talk about the law of God or the inerrancy/infallibility of the Bible, I’m game. As far as evolution is concerned, I am not a scientist. I have no relevant expertise regarding evolution. Others on this site do, some of whom are trained scientists, so if they want to engage you on matters of science, I am sure they will respond.
Wade in if you dare, Arv, but please know that this site is not a den of “ignorant” atheists or people who, as your friend said, “reject the authority of God in their lives.” For me personally, I think you will find that I can adequately and competently discuss Christian theology with you — especially in its Evangelical and IFB varieties.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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