In the 1980s and 1990s, I pastored Somerset Baptist Church in Mt. Perry, Ohio. Wanting to keep my congregation unspotted from the world and aware of the heresy and heterodoxy surrounding them, I was ever aware of those deemed “liberal” within Evangelicalism, in general, and the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) church movement, in particular. Naming names was a part of my preaching for too many years than I care to admit. Rooting out heresy and naming those who weren’t orthodox was labeled “discernment.” Discernment ministries popped up everywhere, with some practitioners saying that their ability to discern truth and error was a gift from God.
Wanting to accurately know what these heretical and heterodox preachers believed and practiced, I read books from discernment ministries, passing on the relevant information to church members in my sermons and classes. Cult “expert” Walter Martin — who believed every religion but his own was a cult — was a discernment minister, as were men such as Rick Miesel and David Cloud. This was before the Internet, so you either got discernment news from books or newsletters and sermons. Meisel operated the Bible Discernment Ministry (which is now operated by John Beardsley). Meisel put together a binder of men and women he deemed heretical and offered it for sale. I bought a binder from Miesel. Periodically, he would send out updates and addendums to the binder. Cloud operated Way of Life Literature, a ministry focused on Baptists in general, and the IFB church movement specifically. The Sword of the Lord and The Biblical Evangelist were two newspaper rags that frequently published articles calling out heresy, demanding that offending preachers, churches, and institutions repent and return to IFB orthodoxy. Countless other papers were published during this time. For several years, I published The Sovereign Grace Reporter, a monthly newsletter that called on Baptists to embrace their Calvinistic roots.
The Internet changed everything, including discernment ministries. For a few dollars a month, a discernment ministry could set up a website reaching more people than they could ever reach with printed materials or audio tapes.
Today, there are scores of discernment ministries, each with its take on heresy and who should be excommunicated from the ranks of orthodoxy. In 2007, I showed up on the radar of heresy hunters such as Ken Sliva and Preacher Boy. Silva is now deceased, and Preacher Boy is no longer in the ministry. I was able to find one discussion I had online with Ken Silva in 2008. Here’s the relevant text. Keep in mind, I was still a Christian — barely — at this point (spelling, grammar, and punctuation in the original):
Now as a heterosexual man completely comfortable within my own sexuality I will now remind you of a prior AM piece It’s Time To Rethink The Issue Of Homosexuality. Within it, I have already shared that as a former professional musician once living in Los Angeles, I have personally known many homosexual people. As a matter of fact I also mentioned a friend of mine, whom I also worked for, happened to be quite open about his homosexuality. I, on the other hand, was also quite open about my Christianity. And, the Lord be praised, one day he even said as a compliment to me, “You act like a Christian is supposed to act.”
With this as necessary background let me point out that in a post called Rob Bell and his stance on homosexuality I am taken to task for my writings concerning Bell by Erica Martino who, as I pointed out previously, happens to be the wife of Rob’s friend Joe. Being criticized all goes with the turf I play on so I’ve no problem with Erica including me with, “These men and women [who] are like Dogs returning to their vomit.” I also discussed in the aforementioned FTCJ post an exchange I had with Bruce Gerencser, with whom I have waged war spiritually before, in the combox of Erica’s post.
Gerencser tells us at his blog Bruce Droppings that he’s “a retired minister, having spent almost 30 years in the ministry.” He made the choice to open our discussion at Erica’s blog with the following ad hominem:
“Here’s the deal guys…….Ken is gay. Those who become obsessed with the sexuality of others often have skeletons in their own closet. So Ken, I question your heterosexuality. I think you are hiding your true gayness. Come out from among Him saith the Lord!! … Quite frankly I would rather be in hell with Rob than in heaven with Ken.
Bruce”
This would lead to the following, which now goes to the central point of this particular article and also provides a perfect example of how Christ-followers hostile to Sola Scriptura are attempting to make it appear as if there is some difference between God the Father of the Old Testament and God the Son in the New Testament. And if you wish to defend the Gospel and the Bible from this malicious attack on God’s Word and the attempt to use Jesus to make it appear that He approves of the practice of homosexuality then you’ll need to be ready for this:
“You ask if Jesus says homosexuality is a sin? Of course not. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. I’ll wait for you to find a proof text. Make sure it is in red.”
By telling me to “make sure it is in red” Gerenscer is revealing he knows very well Jesus is not recorded in the Gospels as speaking directly to the issue of homosexuality. Now I attempted to leave any further discussion alone by simply pointing Gerencser to Apprising Ministries: Shocking New Evidence Jesus Condemned The Practice Of Homosexuality but unfortunately he replied:
“Ken,
I won’t play the game. I don’t read your site. Every time I try and go there my browser crashes. Thank God for providence. So real simple give me the verses in the NT where Jesus directly spoke about homosexuality. NO song and dance. NO shuck and jive. Put up or shut up.
Straight up asking for your proof, from the infallible, inerrant Word of God. (KJV is even OK with me) Remember no “inference” or “God talking and we know Jesus was God” ………Just the verses where Jesus spoke or taught on the issue of homosexuality. You are the one who has made this foolish claim.
I agree the Bible addresses homosexuality but Jesus never addressed the issue. You are the one speaking in Jesus’ name (I am just speaking in Bruce’s name, maybe you’ve seen the movie) so please show me the verses. Thank you in advance.”
And for one who claims to have been a minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ the following from Gerencser from his next two responses to me is very sad indeed:
“Ken,
Nice dodge. As I thought no verses. You said Jesus spoke about homosexuality. He did not. You “assume” information that is not in the text. I do not base the condemnation of millions to the Lake of Fire on “inference.” God better be clear on this one…….and it seems Ken is much clearer than God, especially Jesus.
Ok just one more little point. Ken, I challenged your “Jesus said” position. I never said the Bible did not speak to the issue of homosexuality. Jesus didn’t………..and that’s just the facts.”
Since our interest here is attempting to gain some further insight into Rob Bell’s own position on homosexuality I’ll simply place below a quick composite of my answer to Gerenscer’s foolish statements:
“Wrong. I’ll make this very simple. You are correct for a change: “the infallible, inerrant Word of God… [The] Bible addresses homosexuality.” Since you admit that the Bible is God’s Word; then you will agree it teaches that Jesus is God. In the Bible God already addressed the issue of homosexuality in the OT. Therefore whatever God says concerning homosexuality in the OT Jesus, the Creator, also says concerning homosexuality in the OT.”
“In the NT Christ tells us God the Holy Spirit would speak for Him. God does not change; and Jesus Christ does not change. The teachings concerning homosexuality spoken by the Vicar of Christ, God the Holy Spirit, in the NT are in complete agreement with the OT. No way around it for one who holds to the Bible as the inerrant and infallible Word of God and the Deity of Christ. God has spoken in both the OT and the NT condemning the practice of homosexuality as sin.”
“There’s your straight up asking for proof, from the infallible, inerrant Word of God. You cannot separate God the Father and God the Son on this issue. Jesus did address sexual immorality, which includes honosexuality, and He most likely felt that as God He didn’t stutter the first time so His view is clear enough.The Bible is God’s Word; Jesus is God, therefore, whatever the Bible says on homosexuality, Jesus says on homosexuality.”
As this discussion with Gerenscer was going on without my knowledge Dave Marriott, a friend of mine, attempted to help Rob Bell’s friends take a closer look at their conduct, which is a reflection on MHBC and Bell himself as their friend and teaching pastor:
“Joe and Erika,
I’m shocked at your posture in this thread. I cannot believe that those who claim to attend a church where all are loved and accepted, where individuals can find a haven of rest —- that these individuals would sit back and watch Bruce denigrate the inspiration and authority of the Scriptures and call a married Christian man a homosexual. Way to take the high ground guys.”
The reason I introduce this into evidence is because it’s possible that in Joe Martino’s response to Marriott we might catch a glimpse of his friend Bell’s own position concerning the practice of homosexuality. Note Martino echoes Gerenscer’s attempt to pit Jesus against the crystal clear teaching of the Old Testament that the practice of homosexuality is sin. In fact, at that time it was actually a capital offense and one was to be painfully executed if caught:
Hi Dave,
First of all, there is no K in Erica.
Secondly, have you ever heard of Ted Haggard? He was exactly what you claim for Ken. A “married Christian man” who guess what? You remember, turns out he had gay lovers. I think that makes him gay. For all I know, the same could be true of Ken. I mean, the man cannot answer a question without doing dances that would make the produces of “Dancing with the Stars” proud. There seems to be many parrallells between Ken’s “ministry” and Haggard’s. I applaud Bruce, for throwing these thoughts out there.
Bruce is a grown man, who can speak for himself. He makes a valid point that we have no record of the God/Man Jesus Christ saying anything about Homosexuality in the Scriptures. Does the Bible speak about it? Yes, but I don’t see Jesus talking about it while He was on earth. Probably because those moral, upstanding Romans weren’t involved in it. Besides, what do you want us to do? Maybe we should spank Bruce? Maybe we should take his computer away? He’s in 50’s for crying out loud.
You’ve chosen to align yourself with Ken and attack Rob. That is your choice, but don’t come here and play all cutsie about Mars. Erica wasn’t mean to Ken in the OP. It’s not even just about Ken. It is about what God is doing in and through Mars. You and Ken and all your little posts can’t stop that.
Perhaps what we see in the bold type above will be the same dodge Bell himself uses as to why he has not gone on the record concerning where he personally stands on the practice of homosexuality. Frankly, with Bell’s reputation of leading MHBC, “a city within the city,” which “lives for Jesus”, and with so much praise being heaped upon him as a Bible teacher, the Body of Christ has every right to expect that pastor-teacher Rob Bell will finally tell us: Does Jesus consider the practice of homosexuality sinful, or not?
Because for the regenerated Christian the answer really is clear: What God says; Jesus says. So why then can’t/won’t Rob Bell answer this simple question? And as we get set to close this, for now, while those dialogues above were progressing Rob Bell’s friend Erica went on to write A follow up post on Rob Bell and homosexuals from which I derive the title of this AM article. Sadly, as sincerely impassioned as it is, it’s filled with red herrings and straw men such as:
“We have this mentality as a church that one sin is greater then the other. This is what the endless chatter is all about… When was the last time you heard endless chatter about lying, gossiping, malicious slander…for some reason we have it in our head that one sin is great then others…
I know a homosexual. She is one of the sweetest people you will ever meet. She is tore up in side… How could she be a Christian and be a lesbian? … The lesbian I once new would not have been welcomended in most churches, the abortionist would not be welcome in most church, nor the murder, the sex offender, the rapist. Because as Christians we beleive we are better then them… “
Let me tell you honestly that I do believe Erica is sincere, and, there is also truth in what she just said. However, all of that actually has nothing at all to do with the question I have raised; and so, I’ll share below what I said to Joe and Erica Martino, friends of Rob Bell and members of his city within the city, so prayerfully it will help us all focus on the heart of the matter:
Hopefully you will be able to grasp the actual issue here. ALL sinners are welcome to attend Christian churches, and should be encouraged to do so. The issue is: Does Rob Bell, unlike others in the Emerging Church he is associated with, believe Jesus says the practice of homosexuality is a sin.
That Christ’s blood was shed for sin is patently obvious to anyone who is regenerated. But, does Bell believe the practice of the homosexual lifestyle, monogomous or not, is a sin?
Search long and wide on the Internet and you will find other discernment articles that mention me. Such is the nature of the Internet. Dr. David Tee, in particular, is the epitome of a discernment minister. Protestia is another prominent discern ministry, as are Berean Call (Dave Hunt), Trails Research, Michelle Lesley, Herescope, Berean Research, Church Watch Central, Evangelical Dark Web, Midwest Christian Outreach, Shadow to Light, Spiritual Minefield, The End Time, The Truth Shall Set You Free, The Transformed Wife, and Absolute Truth From the Word of God — to name a few.
To the person, the people who operate these sites are “heresy hunters.” Sussing out heretics wherever they may be found, these so-called followers of Jesus believe that they are spiritually purer and more mature than other Christians. These defenders of the one true faith even go so far as to say who is and isn’t a real Christian. Most of them are hardcore Fundamentalists who believe the Bible is inerrant and infallible. Their goal is to purify the church and keep it on the straight and narrow. By all accounts, discernment ministries are failing in their mission, or, even worse, suffer from mission creep, now going after fellow Fundamentalists with their exposés. These days, there are near-constant internecine wars between discerners and those they are exposing. I find these battles quite entertaining, with each side pissing in a hurricane while the world goes to hell. As long as I don’t get splattered, I am content to buy a pop and some popcorn and watch Evangelicals devour one another. There’s a place for pointing out heresy and heterodoxy, but the longer heresy hunters are in the game, the more shrill and divisive they become in their judgments. Throw Trump, MAGA, racism, xenophobia, and misogyny into the mix and you have a variety show like you have never seen before.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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It seems like these are a bunch of rivals busily calling each other names because each of them believes himself more faithful than the other. It doesn’t sound much like the Jesus of scripture would have done.
Let them attack each other. It’s what they deserve. If they’re focused on attacking each other, maybe they’ll leave everyone else alone. It’s funny how the “purity”-oriented Christians think everyone else is the heretic.
These heresy hunters remind me of a dogs in a fight. Round and round they go snapping at each other’s rears. To borrow from Shakespeare: (Macbeth) “It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing”.
“The Bible is inerrant and so is my interpretation of it”. “Hooray for me and mine”.
It’s the sort of stuff that brought us skeptics to throw up our hands and say it’s all BS.
Dutch Guy–I was thinking of that same Macbeth soliloquy.
People who need to think they are “purer” than others are serious cases of arrested development.