Over the weekend, I received an email from an Evangelical man named Richard Johnson. What follows is my response.
To be perfectly honest, I do not know exactly how I stumbled upon your webpage. I do not know you, nor do I desire to pick a fight with you.
You stumbled upon this site either through a web search or social media post. No one “stumbles” upon my writing by accident. Further, if, as Christian orthodoxy states, God is the creator of all things and the sovereign ruler of the universe, he is to blame for you reading my blog.
Not only do you not know me, your email reveals that you have no regard or respect for me as a person. I specifically asked you NOT to email me (please read the Contact page), yet you chose to do so anyway. Why is that? Did you seriously think that you were going to tell me something that I did not already know about God/Jesus/Bible/Christianity? Your email treats me as if I am clueless about what Evangelical Christians believe. I assure you that a have a working knowledge of all things Evangelical.
I am 71 years old, so that makes me around five years older than you. I am an evangelical Christian that has studied the Bible extensively for a number of years. Although I have never been trained in a seminary or been a pastor, the Jesus I know differs greatly from the Jesus you thought you knew at one time.
“Knowing” Jesus does not require studying the Bible “extensively” for a number of years.” Jesus never studied the Bible (as you are using the term), and neither did the apostles. The early church took hundreds of years to compile what you call the “Bible.” In fact, most Christians had limited reading and writing skills, and early gatherings consisted first, of worshiping in the Temple, and later gathering in homes to pray, fellowship, and listen to readings from the Old Testament and other religious texts. You may not know this, but early Christians did not own leather-bound Oxford King James Bibles. They relied on oral transmission of religious teachings.
Speaking of Peter and John — two of the men in Jesus’ inner circle, the Bible says in Acts 4:13: “Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.” Unlearned and ignorant, Jesus’ two closest disciples were, yet their behavior demonstrated that they were followers of Jesus.
How do you KNOW your Jesus is the right one? How do you know I worshipped the wrong one, a false Jesus? Do you know anything about the lifelong trajectory of my theological, political, and social beliefs? Or, have you cobbled together in your mind a strawman of the beliefs of one Bruce Gerencser — an Evangelical-pastor-turned-atheist? How much of my autobiographical material did you actually read before hitting “send?” I suspect a post or three before you felt “led” by the Holy Ghost to preach at me. To this, I say, “Answering before listening is both stupid and rude.” (Proverbs 18:13)
The Jesus I know is the epitome of grace.
Jesus is God, right? I assume you are Trinitarian, so you can’t divorce Jesus from the actions and words of his Father. Thus, Jesus, the epitome of grace, is directly responsible for drowning millions of innocent men, women, children, babies, and fetuses in Genesis 6-9.
Richard Dawkins had this to say about the Old Testament God: “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
This God is Jesus. Surely you know this, right? Christians love the Jesus of the gospels, but that Jesus is one and the same as the God of the Old Testament and the God of the book of Revelation who will one day slaughter most of the human race and make earth uninhabitable.
The reason why He left heaven was because He regarded our helpless estate as human beings. We are His creation. Satan deceived Eve. Adam chose to willfully sin, and every human being thereafter was infected with a sinful nature. That was why Jusus told Nicodemus he needed to be born again. When someone is born again, that person has a new entity that lives inside him/her that contends with the old sinful nature. In order for the “born again” entity to prevail over the old sinful nature, the born again entity must be fed more than the old sinful nature. Amy Grant once sang a song called “Are You Living In An Old Man’s Rubble. You can find it on Youtube should you care to listen to it. If you choose to do so, please find the version with the lyrics.
Outside of the Bible, what evidence do you have for these claims? Just because the Bible says something doesn’t mean it’s true. The Bible is a book of claims. If you want me to believe what you are peddling, you are going to have to provide actual evidence for your claims, starting with the notion that we are broken sinners who need fixing.
The Jesus I know and serve is a Gentleman.
The Jesus you know is one you have concocted in your mind, just as millions and millions of other Christians have done. I find it amazing that the Jesus you know looks like you, thinks like you, and believes the same thing you do. How can unbelievers know which Jesus is the right one? Christians can’t even agree on the basics: salvation, baptism, and communion.
He died a painful and degrading death on a Roman cross to give us the choice to accept or reject Him and His offer of salvation.
Jesus was executed because he was considered a threat by the Roman government. Your statements about his death are claims for which you provide no evidence. Further, even when I consider your claims from an Evangelical perspective, it is evident you lack a comprehensive understanding of Christian orthodoxy.
Jesus died on the cross to atone for sin. Before the world began, God predetermined that Jesus would die at an appointed time for the sins of the elect. Jesus was a lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. Libertarian freewill is not taught in the Bible. Well, the Bible can be used to prove anything, but most Christians believe that salvation is of the Lord; and that no one is saved unless God regenerates, draws, calls, and redeems them. Jesus said in John 6:44: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
As far as Jesus’ suffering is concerned. He suffered for all of 12 hours or so. Sure, his suffering was painful, but I know people who have been suffering horrible, debilitating pain for decades. Compared to their suffering, Jesus’ was just a minor inconvenience. Please see I Wish Christians Would Be Honest About Jesus’ Three Day Weekend.) Jesus knew deliverance awaited just around the corner. Not so for these people, many of whom who have spent years without success begging Jesus to heal and deliver them
In your listing of 16 reasons why you are not a Christian, reason number eight was simply not true. God sends no one to hell. People who reject God’s free gift of grace are the ones that send themselves to hell. God will honor the decision of anyone who chooses to accept or reject Him.
It is “simply not true” because you say so? Who created the universe? Who is the sovereign Lord over all? Who is the Kings of kings and Lord of lords? Who knows the end from the beginning? Who knows our every thought, word, and deed? Who created Adam and Eve? Satan?
Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation make it clear that it is God (Jesus) who will one day cast all non-Christians in the Lake of Fire. He alone determines who is saved and who is not. I can easily argue that God determined who would be saved before the world was created; that no one goes to Hell unless God sends him there (and the same can be said for Heaven/God’s eternal kingdom).
You want to believe in libertarian free will because it makes God (Jesus) look good and absolves him of all culpability for human behavior and the state of the world. You want to give him all the credit for the good in the world, but none of the bad. God=good, Satan=bad.
In the book of Job, it was Satan that did all the tormenting of Job. God showed the devil and anyone else who read the book of Job the true nature of Satan. The Bible says that Satan will one day spend eternity in hell.
Who created Satan? Could Satan have done anything without God’s permission? Of course not. You seem desperate to protect God’s “good name,” so much so that you are willing to go to great lengths to distort the words of the Bible. Go back and actually read the book of Job without reading your peculiar theology into the text. You will find a God is front and center in Job’s suffering, none of which would have happened without God’s permission.
Satan is responsible for all the pain and suffering in this sin-sick world of ours. He was the one who oversaw the torture, suffering, humiliation, and death of Jesus on the cross.
Again, you are making claims — without evidence. Satan, much like God, is a mythical being. He can’t be responsible for anything because he doesn’t exist. Humans alone are to blame for what happens in the world. It was the Roman government, at the behest of the Jews, that oversaw the “torture, suffering, humiliation, and death of Jesus on the cross.” Not Satan.
Jesus did not die in vain, but He overcame death and the grave. I serve a risen Saviour and His name is Jesus.
I know you “believe” this, but you can’t expect others to believe it without providing convincing evidence for your claims. Just because the Bible says something doesn’t mean it’s true. Coming to this site and preaching at me and my readers accomplished what, exactly? Your words are no different from those of thousands of Evangelicals who have come before you. Same old shit, new day. Instead of preaching — listen. Instead of preaching — show respect to people you differ with.
I am more than happy to answer whatever questions you might have. However, I have zero interest in sermons or Bible quotations. I know all I need to know about God/Jesus/Christianity. With eyes wide open, I reject the central claims of Christianity. I am not low-hanging fruit; someone who is a prospect for Heaven. I have weighed Christianity in the balance and found it wanting.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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Huh. I thought God plainly gave Satan the right to harm Job. Satan was not allowed to kill him, but God permitted him greater suffering (according to the Bible). So…the Christiain god was the author of evil.
Typical excuse-making crap, punching down rather than speaking truth to power.
Richard, your imaginary fiend supposedly created “hell.” If it were a good god, it would not have done such a thing in the first place because to torture even one sentient being for eternity is infinitely unjust and infinitely evil.
Why do you worship an infinitely evil god, Richard?
Two questions Richard.
One, how can you tell which is true as between God and Satan if both infect your mind and try to influence you? How do you know Jesus wasn’t sent by Satan and was full of crap?
Two, how do you know that it isn’t atheists who go to heaven, and that you’ve been duped by God all your life into believing without reasoning?
Not only did he allow Job to be tested, but God is the one who arbitrarily singled the man out as though he were the the healthiest puppy in the litter and omnisciently dangled the prospect of tormenting him in the first place.
“Have you considered my servant, Job?” can only be viewed as a direct challenge to the devil.
Unsurprisingly, Richard is another ignorant christian who lies about his supposed holy book in order to misrepresent it and lie.
“In the book of Job, it was Satan that did all the tormenting of Job. God showed the devil and anyone else who read the book of Job the true nature of Satan. The Bible says that Satan will one day spend eternity in hell.”
funny how that isn’t true, and this god is complicit in the murder of an entire family. This god also tried to buy off job with money and a “new family”. I do wonder, how many of these TrueChristians(tm) would accept that trade?
Hi Richard. You said: “We are His creation. Satan deceived Eve.”
Zoe: Who created Satan?
These errant evangelists all seem to have the same flavor. Interesting how every person’s Jesus is different from everyone else’s Jesus. Reminds me of the “Barney” theme song. “Barney is a dinosaur from our imagination, Barney can be your friend too if you just make-believe him!”
Richard may be out to lunch in the Christian cult, but I gotta admit one thing. Everything he said about the Bible is true. Not saying that the Bible’s information is true, but that he’s correct in describing its commands and demands. In other words, the Bible a confusing mishmash of contradictions and reading it is the surest way to deconstruct from the cult called Christianity. No wonder Catholics have kept it for their priesthood and forbidden it to be read by the sheep. It’s loaded with stuff they don’t want the unwashed masses to know.
Dear Bruce the Atheist:
[no further text in comment]
Oh, I’m disappointed in you Richard, C’m on now, have the courage of your convictions. Slay us deplorable heathens here with your irrefutaable killer arguments for the existence of your non-existent fairies in the sky. I for one am so interested to hear them.
Richard, even if you believe that Satan is responsible for torturing Job, the destruction of all life on earth except for the ones who made it onto a boat and for deceiving Eve, you have to hold God responsible. After all, who made Satan? And if God has preordained every thought and action, why did he make Satan someone who would do such terrible things?
Of course, questions about whether Satan or God did whatever to whomever are moot if you see God and Satan for what they are–characters in a book.
According to evangelical soteriology as I understand it, God gives us the choice to acknowledge that we are born sinners (**are we born that way or are we sinners in uterus, I am not clear on that), that we must ask God’s forgiveness, that we must pledge fealty to God by asking him “into our heart” to save us, and that he will save us and send his Holy Spirit to live in our “heart”, and thus we are saved from an eternal conscious physical and mental torment in hell (which he ostensibly created since he is supposedly the creator of all things). So here’s the choice – do this or suffer forever. Sounds like a choice like those given by a mafia boss – not really a choice but presented as such. That’s not something a moral, compassionate person would do to another.
Christianity is definitely the old protection racket. But what’s unclear is whether the church learned it from the mob, or the mob learned if from the church. Then again, church leaders were always mobbish so there’s your answer.