We don’t hate them, LGBTQ people, Sage. If we hated Because we hate LGBTQ people, them we would let them go go hell unearned and unprayed for without the gospel! hope these sexual deviants burn in Hell. Dr. David Tee and I, and many others bring them the gospel! will not rest until LGBTQ people are rounded up and sent to internment camps.
Sadly, those caught in lgbtq trans demonic homos snare who attack and condemn LGBTQ people are going to realize too late that the “haters” those who shared the gospel with them were the ones that really LOVED THEM! it is they who will land in Hell someday for hating other people who have literally done nothing to them. And those who approved of, supported, and celebrated with them in their sin were the ones that HATED them LGBTQ people will be rewarded by God for loving their neighbors as themselves, while Revival Fires and Dr. David Tee will be And driven the through the gates of Hell on a Trump-driven, Musk-built rocket sled. 😭😭
“HE SHALL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOKY GHOST AND WITH FIRE” MATTHEW 3:11. Put your left foot in, and put your left foot out, and shake it all about, do the Hoky Ghost, and turn yourself around, that’s what it’s all about.
MAY GOD BRING MANY TO JESUS!!! SPARKE A REVIVAL FIRE!!!! 🔥 May Revival Fires and Dr. David Tee repent of their wicked, hateful ways before it is too late and they land in Hell.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
In 2007, as a Christian — barely — who was struggling with his faith, I started blogging. For a time, I found the Emergent (or Emerging) Church a welcome respite from Evangelical Christianity, but I eventually found its core beliefs lacking too. A year later, I publicly announced that I was an agnostic, and a few months later, an atheist. I dropped the “agnostic” moniker because I got tired of having to explain repeatedly what the word meant. Currently, I self-identify as an agnostic atheist.
As a Christian blogger, I was repeatedly attacked and harassed by Evangelicals for my “liberal” beliefs — both theologically and politically. Then, as now, Evangelicals took one of two positions about my “faith.”
I never was a Christian.
I am still a Christian, but under the chastisement of God.
In November 2008, I attended church for the last time. Throughout my journey from Evangelicalism to atheism, I have blogged about my experiences and beliefs. Countless Evangelicals have come to this site, determined to set me straight about my beliefs. Thousands of emails, blog comments, and social media messages later, I have noticed certain tactics Evangelicals use to repudiate or evangelize me. Evangelicals are, if anything, predictable. And, to be fair, all of us can be predictable. I know I am, though I generally try to engage people where they are. That said, I’ve become quite adept at sniffing out motivations. I’ve had commenters go out of their way to “hide” their Evangelical beliefs. Often, they will try to suck me in with science or philosophy arguments — which is all the rage on YouTube. Usually, I don’t engage in discussions or debates about the existence of God or the beginning of the universe. I know some readers revel in such subjects, but, for me, I’m not that interested. Not that I lack knowledge sufficient to engage in such discussions. I am confident that I can hold my own. I just don’t find these discussions interesting. Rarely do they lead to satisfying conclusions. So I try to stay focused on Evangelicalism (and the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church movement) and the teachings of the Bible.
When commenters try to hide their Evangelical beliefs, I’ve become pretty good at cutting through their philosophical bullshit, forcing them to admit that they are not arguing for a generic deity, but the God of the Bible. Once they admit they are Evangelicals who base their beliefs on the teachings of the inspired, inerrant, and infallible Bible, I am ready to have a discussion with them. Sometimes, I will even grant their philosophical beliefs and then ask them how they connect this cosmic deity of theirs to the God of the Bible. Once trapped inside the pages of the Bible, it’s easier to discuss their beliefs.
This brings me to “Dr.” Arv Edgeworth. Edgeworth is an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) evangelist from Ohio. Over the past several days, I have received numerous emails from Edgeworth, as has Carolyn, my editor. Edgeworth’s emails had an accusatory, judgmental tone, which is typical coming from IFB preachers. I have directly and pointedly answered Edgeworth’s emails (which you can read in the previous posts in this series). Not because I thought I could make a dent in Edgeworth’s thinking — you don’t argue Fundamentalist Baptists out of their beliefs. I’m content to engage such people, hoping that responses will be beneficial to others — especially lurkers. I have had Evangelical zealots who have engaged me in word-to-word combat return months later, admitting they were wrong or that they treated me poorly. I am always grateful when someone apologizes for their boorish behavior. Sadly, this doesn’t happen very often.
Unfortunately, some Evangelicals use their apologies as a ploy. This has happened often enough that I have a hard time accepting Evangelical apologies as genuine. The first question that comes to my mind is this: Is this a genuine apology? The second question is this: What are their motivations? Take Revival Fires (RF). RF is a terrible example of what it means to be a Christian. He has sent me numerous emails and left scores of comments on this site. He is a nasty, vile son of a bitch; someone who loves posting comments detailing prison rape and scat. Several years ago, I called out his behavior, using Bible verses to show that his behavior was not consistent with the teachings of the Bible. Afterward, I received a nice, respectful email from RF. He wanted to be “friends” with me. My response? Are you fucking kidding me? You shit on my doorstep, piss in my corn flakes, attack and harass my wife and children, and you want me to befriend you? Go fuck yourself. And get some therapy. Soon, RF went back to his putrid ways.
Other Evangelicals have taken this approach with me — mainly Independent Fundamentalist Baptists. I’ve received numerous apologies, only to have the person apologizing return to their hateful ways days or weeks later. As a result of past experiences, I am hesitant to believe people when they suddenly apologize after being so hostile towards me. Is their apology genuine? Time will tell, and I have found that most of them return to their hateful ways. Why? I can’t be certain, but I suspect hatred is part of their religious DNA. The IFB church movement, for example, is built upon a foundation of hate; not just ideas or beliefs, but people and institutions. When a Christian is exposed to this kind of thinking week after week, it is almost impossible for them to change their thinking. Possible, but hard. Typically, lasting change requires leaving the IFB church movement.
I’m sure you are thinking, Bruce, what the hell does this have to do with Arv Edgeworth? I know, I know, I’m a long-winded preacher. 🙂 Yesterday, I received the following email from Edgeworth:
I want to apologize, I have been pretty judgmental in my attitude, and I assumed some things I shouldn’t have. Sorry about that. In spite of our differences, maybe we can reach some common ground.
After this statement, Edgeworth took a conciliatory, friendly approach, attempting to connect with me. He sent me several more emails taking a similar tact. Is Edgeworth being genuine? I have no way of knowing. Time will tell. I certainly accept his apology, but the value of any apology is determined by how a person acts going forward. I don’t expect Edgeworth to agree with me or change his beliefs. What I do expect is that he treats me with respect and lets me tell my story on my own terms. I have had many delightful conversations with Christians over the years; people I had little in common with. It is possible for Evangelicals and atheists to get along. Possible, but not easy. Probable? Not likely, but I feel I should at least try to find common ground with people who hold different beliefs than mine. I’m not a debater. I prefer friendly back-and-forth discussions, say over dinner or a beer at the local pub. Sadly, many Evangelicals (and some atheists) take this approach instead:
This scene from Mars Attacks! — one of my favorite movies — shows how many people approach discussions about religion (and politics). I have no interest in eviscerating Evangelicals, including Edgeworth. I accept his apology, but time will tell whether it is genuine. If he reverts to the IFB norm, it is only a matter of time before I say or write something that will offend his Holy Ghost sensibilities. How will he react? I know how IFB preachers before him have acted, but maybe, just maybe, he will be an exception to the rule.
The ball is in Arv’s court. Will he see the ball? I don’t know, since he has repeatedly told me that he doesn’t plan to read this blog. That’s on him. I am more than willing to engage him in thoughtful discussion. One thing is for sure, Arv will get a lot more exposure as a result of our interaction. 🙂 I just did a Google Search on “Arv Edgeworth.” Three days in, and this site is already the third search result. 🙂 All praise be to Loki.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Occasionally, I receive snail mail from Evangelical Christians, hoping they can evangelize me. My address isn’t hard to find. Let me give it to you so you can send me lots of money:
Bruce Gerencser PO Box 183 Ney, Ohio 43549
🙂 On a more serious note, today, I received a letter from an Evangelical Christian who reads this blog. Gotta love his choice in reading material, right? Here’s what he (or she) had to say (slightly edited for readability):
Dear Bruce,
Want to let you know that Christ loves you more than you know. He does NOT want you to be separated from him in Hell. It is no Christian’s place or job to say whether you were saved or not (David Tee, unreadable name, Revival Fires, John, David, or whoever). See Timothy 2:13 [if we are faithless, he remains faithful—he cannot deny himself]. I hope you were. If so, you can return to him, and he is waiting for you to do so. If not, don’t reject the greatest gift! The greatest love from the greatest man to ever live — Jesus Christ.
Enclosed is a tract called Back from the Dead? I encourage you to read it. Also www.chick.com. NO FEAR and the Empty Tomb are great to look at, too.
Sadly, someone can read my writing and still not understand my story. This reader thinks that all it will take to win me back to Jesus is for me to read a tract. Really? This approach may work with people uninitiated in Evangelicalism, but that’s not me. I’m not low-hanging fruit that can be easily picked with cheap, shallow Evangelical propaganda. The same goes for sending me lists of Bible verses. “OMG! I didn’t know the Bible said that,” says Bruce NEVER. I’m sure this reader meant well, but he might want to rethink his approach to former Christians — especially college-trained preachers. I know he thinks the Bible is a magical book; that its words can overcome reason, skepticism, and common sense. It’s not. It’s just a book of words written by men.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
What follows is my response to another email from Independent Fundamentalist Evangelist Arv Edgeworth
Mr. Gerencser,
So nice to hear from you. I don’t read your blog so I won’t be reading your replies to my emails to Carolyn. I read your “Why” section, and all I saw was poor logic on your account, so I have no desire to read any further.
That’s up to you. Remember, you came to this site and then emailed me.
You claim I use poor logic, yet you provide no evidence for your claim. What laws of logic have I violated?
Bruce, you blame God and the “Church” for you neglecting your family. I have known several pastors who built strong ministries, and they had strong family ties, and I saw no evidence they neglected their families in any way. I’m sorry you neglected yours. But that is on YOU, not God.
I don’t blame “God.” He is a myth, so it would be foolish to blame a mythical being for something that happened in my life. I accept full responsibility for the choices I have made throughout my life. Part of accepting responsibility is determining why a certain decision was made. From this perspective, my pastors, professors, and the churches I pastored all played a part in how I neglected my family. I was indoctrinated and conditioned to view the world a certain way. The same goes for how I viewed my calling and the work of the ministry. I can’t be at fault for practicing what I was taught or what was modeled to me by my pastors and peers. I did what I thought was right in the eyes of God. Over time, my thinking changed. How I viewed the ministry in 1976 was very different from the way I viewed it in 1997. Unfortunately, Edgeworth does what many of my critics do: he takes a snapshot of a certain point in my life and applies it to the sum of my life, not allowing for change as I got older and matured.
I was a Creation evangelist for over 20 years, giving over 450 seminars in 27 different states. Sometimes my wife couldn’t go with me because she was our church secretary for 27 years, but she is my best friend, and we are both close to our kids. We will celebrate 60 wonderful years of marriage this week.
Okay? I’m not sure what the point is. We all have a storyline. In my case, I was saved at the age of fifteen and called to preach several weeks later. In the fall of 1976, I enrolled in classes at Midwestern Baptist College in Pontiac, Michigan — an IFB college started in 1954 by Dr. Tom Malone. (Malone, by the way, had an earned doctorate from an accredited state school.) While at Midwestern, I met a beautiful IFB preacher’s daughter. Two years later, we married, and this July we will celebrate forty-seven years of wedded bliss. We are blessed to have six adult children, sixteen grandchildren, and four cats.
My ministerial career of twenty-five years took my partner and me to Evangelical churches (IFB, Southern Baptist, Sovereign Grace Baptist, Christian Union, and Nondenominational) in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. I left the ministry in 2005 and converted from Christianity in 2008. I am now an atheist and a humanist.
You claim you had an intimate relationship with Christ for many years, but now claim He never existed. It can’t be both.
People change their minds. When I was a Christian, I had an intimate relationship with Jesus. I was a sincere follower of Christ. And now I am an atheist. I learned over the years that religious faith is complex; that people, myself included, can hold beliefs that are not true.
I have never said Jesus wasn’t a real person. I am not a mythicist. I think Jesus was a Jewish apocalyptic preacher who was executed for his opposition to the Roman government. He was buried in an unknown grave, never to be seen or heard from again. What I reject are the supernatural claims made for Jesus.
You blame God for all bad things in the world, then claim God doesn’t exist. More bad logic?
If God is the sovereign creator of the universe, then, yes, he is responsible for the good and bad that happens in the world. I can make a solid theological argument for this claim; a belief, by the way, I held when I was a pastor.
I can easily defend my past beliefs if challenged. After all, the Bible can be used to prove almost anything.
Like I told Carolyn, you blaming God for everything bad, would be like me seeing a smashed Chevy and no longer believing in General Motors as a great company because they build automobiles that can be smashed by humans. Poor logic.
If God is in control of all things, then, yes, God is responsible for everything, including automobiles.
If Edgeworth wants to discuss or debate this issue, I am game.
You might want to reconsider being an atheist though, if God doesn’t exist then you can’t blame Him for all your failures and the failures of other people. Then the responsibility for you neglecting your family falls only on you. If God doesn’t exist, then you can’t blame Him for creating a world where bad things can happen.
As I have repeatedly stated, I accept responsibility for every decision I have ever made. I have been honest and open about the churches I pastored, detailing both my successes and failures. That said, I refuse to accept blame for things that were not my fault or over which I had no control.
As an atheist and a humanist, I accept and understand that bad things can and do happen, not only to me but to other people. I have had a rough road in life. Life is what it is. All I know to do is to learn from past experiences. I wouldn’t wish my childhood on anyone. Sure, I survived, but not without a hell of a lot of deep wounds and scars. As a 68-year-old man, most of my struggles these days are health-related. I have gastroparesis and exocrine pancreatic insufficiency — both incurable — osteoarthritis, fibromyalgia, and degenerative spine disease (that has left me with widespread disc damage in my neck and spine). In August, I had major surgery on my spine. Virtually every moment of my waking hours is dominated by debilitating pain and illness. I should note, before a Christian reader suggests that my health problems are God’s judgment for my unbelief, I started having health problems years before I deconverted. Countless prayers were uttered asking for deliverance or relief, without success.
I won’t be reading your blog that I am sure will be filled with more bad logic, but if you wish to communicate via emails that would be fine. I hope you get things straightened out in your mind so you can put things in proper perspective.
As far as getting straightened out, I am as “straight” as I can be. One hundred percent heterosexual. 🙂
When Edgeworth says “proper perspective” he means seeing things as he does, believing as he does. Remember, certainty breeds arrogance, and there’s nothing more arrogant than expecting and demanding that others believe as you do. That said, I am more than happy to embrace Edgeworth’s beliefs, provided he can give me empirical evidence for his claims. It’s really that simple. I operate on evidence. My goal is to believe as many true things as possible. That’s why I deconverted. The central claims of Christianity no longer made any sense to me. I expand my thinking on this subject in the post titled The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.
We humans mess up sometimes. Blaming a God Who you say doesn’t exist isn’t the answer. Just curious, will you be worshiping the Easter Bunny next Sunday?
I have sufficiently addressed your false claim above. Again, let me be clear, I give blame and credit to whom blame and credit are due. I do, however, worship my wife. Now, there’s a God worthy of worship. 🙂
Unlike Edgeworth, I do not worship inanimate or mythical beings.
Bruce, what you BELIEVE isn’t the REALITY of the way things ACTUALLY are. I know it makes things easier for you in the make-believe world you have built for yourself, which removes a lot of the responsibility for yourself.
Says who? What evidence do you have for this claim other than that you have convinced yourself that your worship and fealty to a mythical being is “reality.” It’s not. I am a materialist. Since God is an immaterial being and you cannot provide empirical evidence for his existence, “God” is not a part of reality (outside of having to live and interact with people who believe God exists and is personally involved in their lives).
Life is actually much harder for humanists. As a Christian, every belief and action was parsed through the teachings of the Bible. What the Bible said was all that mattered. THUS SAITH THE LORD! As a humanist, I have to develop carefully the moral and ethical framework by which I live my life. There are no humanist Ten Commandments, no humanist standard.
If God does exist, you messed up. But guess what, if God doesn’t exist, you still messed up and are still messing up. But now you are also responsible for all the people you are misleading. If you cared about others, instead of just yourself, you would want them to know the REAL TRUTH. Your whole blog or website is based on bad logic and delusion, and is leading people away from God instead of toward Him.
In what way am I “misleading” people? All I know to do is share my story. I don’t try to convert people to atheism. That said, scores of people have told me that I played a part in their deconversion. I don’t preach at people. I don’t comment on Christian websites. Seventeen years ago, I started blogging. My goal then is the same today: to honestly and openly share my story, answer questions people might have about Evangelical Christianity, and to help and encourage people who have deconverted.
If this blog is based on bad logic and delusion, I suggest Edgeworth either deconstruct my story and posts on his website or start a blog to do the same. He makes all sorts of claims about me, yet provides no evidence to support his contentions.
I wish you well. If you were ever IN the body of Christ, you can never be OUT of the body of Christ, that much is sure. You will be in HEAVEN someday, but think of all those who may not be because of your DELUSION, and anger, which should be directed mostly at yourself, not God.
Answered, answered, answered.
If there is a God, according to the IFB gospel, I will go to Heaven when I die. Awesome, right? Thousands of people who read this blog will someday be in Heaven, too. What a party we will have; millions of Atheist Christians praising logic, reason, skepticism, and common sense for their glorious deliverance from the bondage of Evangelical Christianity, complete with rock music, Holy Ghost marijuana, and a free grace bar. And what will Jesus do? He will probably join us. 🙂
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
I was intimate with my lover for many, many years.
My wife and children know about the affair. I am so sorry for all the hurt and damage my illicit relationship caused. That my wife and children stood by me all these years is a wonderful testimony to their love for me. I don’t deserve it.
My mistress and I carried on for a long, long time. She would follow me wherever I moved: Ohio, Texas, Michigan. She was always right there for me.
My mistress is a lot older than I am. She is what is commonly called a cougar.
The sex was great. The only problem was I could never satisfy her. The more sex we had, the more she wanted. She was quite the nymphomaniac. I had a suspicion she was having sex with other people (she was bisexual) but it didn’t matter. What WE had was special. She treated me as if I was the ONLY one.
Over the years, we made a lot of promises to each other. We are going to do this or that, go here or go there. But neither I nor my mistress delivered on our promises.
I gave my mistress a lot of money. She deserved it, or so I thought. Yet, no matter how much money I gave her, she always wanted more. She would often tell me “Prove that you love me, Bruce.” So I would give her more money. I began to wonder if she was a prostitute and I was a john. My wife and children suffered because I gave so much money to her. I justified their destitution by telling myself that my affair was what gave me purpose and meaning in life. Without it, I might as well be dead.
I deceived myself for a long time, convinced that what my mistress and I had was real. After all, she made me feel alive. She gave me self-worth. When we were together it seemed as if time stopped and we were transported into the heavens.
One day, I began to have doubts about my affair. The sex was great, but there is more to life than sex. I certainly enjoyed the company of my mistress, and boy, she sure could cook, but I still felt quite empty when I was away from her.
I began to think about all the sacrifices I made for my mistress: all the money I gave her; the loss of a close, intimate relationship with my wife and children. Was it worth it? Since my mistress got the best of me, all my family got was leftovers. By the time I came home to them, I was too tired, too busy, and too broke to give them what they needed and deserved.
A decade or so ago, after much self-judgment and reflection, I ended the affair. I sold all of the mementos of our torrid relationship. I told my mistress that I could no longer be in a relationship with her. She didn’t even get angry, or for that matter, even care. She told me “There are plenty of other people who would love to have me in their lives. Your loss, Bruce.”
So we parted ways,
My wife and I, along with our children, are trying to rebuild our family. The damage done by this affair is incalculable. I can only hope that, with time, the wounds will be healed.
I should warn all of you about my mistress. She is always on the prowl looking for someone new to entice and bed.
Her name?
The Church.
By the way, I thought the above quoted post was some of my finest writing. Others certainly think so.
What follows is my response to his latest email.
Edgeworth replied:
I read it all the way through before, but somehow “her name” and “the Church” with spaces in between didn’t sink in. He had sex with the Church? The sex was great with the Church? Really? A bit misleading don’t you think?
He gave his mistress a lot of money, but complains he never got paid much money from the small churches he pastored, if he got paid at all?
The Church isn’t a building. If Bruce was saved he is part of that church, the body of Christ, that He bled and died for. He can never become not a part of that church. He may choose to not serve Christ but can never not be a part of the church. That relationship is everlasting.
How exactly in his mind did he have sex with “the Church”?
If Bruce neglected his family, that is on him. I have lovingly served my Lord and Savior for over 50 years, but always tried to give my family the attention they needed. But I guess it is easier for Bruce to just blame God for him neglecting his family. Maybe it eases his conscience somehow.
Neglect of his relationship with Christ is far worse.
Evidently, Edgeworth has a hard time recognizing satire — sadly, a common problem with Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) Christians. Their wooden, literalistic way of thinking keeps them from understanding satire (or jokes). Life is too short to go without satire and humor.
I gave a lot of money to the churches I pastored, even when they couldn’t or wouldn’t pay me a living wage, with benefits. (I often worked a full-time secular job while also working at the church full-time.) I pastored churches that ranged in attendance from the 50s to more than 200. Some congregations were dirt poor and couldn’t pay me a living wage. The church I pastored in southeast Ohio grew to over 200 hundred people, yet only exceeded $40,000 income one time. Most years, the church took in less than $30,000. They paid me what they could, and because I put ministry and calling before my pocketbook, I never concerned myself with what I made. In retrospect, I should have. My family suffered because I put Jesus/Church/Christian school/preaching/soulwinning first.
I take full responsibility for the choices I made in the ministry. If I had it to do it all over again, I would do it differently. That said, several of the churches I pastored could have paid me more, but they were content to give me two chickens and a $20 bill. The most I made was $26,000 a year, with the church of 200 members providing a mobile home for my family and me to live in. No insurance, no retirement plan, no benefits. The church could have easily paid me three times what they did but chose not to. Do I blame God? Of course not. The blame rests squarely with the church.
It’s good to know, according to Edgeworth’s profane theology, that I am still a Christian. Once saved, always saved, right? I’m so glad Edgeworth told me the “church is not a building.” OMG! If only I had known that. Sigh. (Why I Use the Word “Sigh.”) According to Edgeworth, I am in a marriage that I can’t get out of, even though my spouse abused and ignored me. No divorce, even if I no longer believe in the existence of the God of the Bible. No divorce, even if I mock, make fun of, and blaspheme God. No divorce, even if I deny that Jesus is the son of God, or that he was born of a virgin, worked countless miracles, died on a Roman cross, resurrected from the dead 48-72 hours later, and later ascended to Heaven, never to be seen again. Any reasonable, logical person would conclude that I am not a Christian. But, Edgeworth’s peculiar theology gets in the way of him exercising rational thinking and common sense.
I don’t blame God for anything. How could I, since he doesn’t exist? The same goes for blaming Satan — another mythical being. I am a big proponent of personal responsibility. Just ask my children and grandchildren. “Grandpa, I can’t find my shoes (wanting me to find them).” They know I will say, “Who had them last?” Personal responsibility training starts young. To the degree that I am culpable, I accept full responsibility. However, I refuse to let churches and individual Christians off the hook for their shitty, unchristian behavior. When people complain about how I have portrayed them in my writing, I tell them, “You should have treated me better.” 🙂 Want to be well thought of? Act accordingly.
I never had “literal” sex with God. Get it in your head, Arv, it’s satire. Now, if you want to know if I ever made love to my partner anywhere on church property — wink, wink, I ain’t telling 🙂 Oh, those were the days!
Edgeworth ended his email with yet another threat of Hell. I wonder if he really thinks this puts the “fear of God” in me. I assure him that I do not fear a nonexistent deity. I am generally not fearful of anything. Well, outside of my wife. She wields a pretty mean Lodge cast-iron skillet. If Polly starts watching The Burning Bed on repeat, then I might fear her. 🙂 If anyone could cause me to fear, it is Evangelical Christians; so-called worshippers of the Prince of Peace who have threatened me with violence — including murder. These so-called Christ followers have also threatened my partner, our six adult children, and our sixteen grandchildren. They have tracked them down on the Internet and sent them hateful, nasty emails.
To Arv I say, if you plan to respond, stop psychoanalyzing me. You aren’t qualified to do so, and I regularly see a therapist who is more than capable of helping me with my mental health.
Do better, Arv, do better. If you want to have a thoughtful conversation with me, I’m game. If your plan is more of the same, don’t bother.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
“Dr.” Arv Edgeworth recently sent me the following comment:
Hi Bruce,
I am interested. Would you be willing to share with me why you left Christianity, and now consider yourself an atheist? I promise not to be judgmental. I honestly would like to see things from your perspective. My wife and I live in Southwest Ohio, and next week will be celebrating our 60th anniversary. I wish you well.
I am an evangelist. In the last 14 years I have spoken in over 300 independent, fundamental Baptist churches in 25 different states. I have spent a great deal of time discussing doctrinal issues with those pastors. I have also discussed standards of dress and conduct with them. I send out a newsletter to about 2100 independent, fundamental, Baptist churches nation-wide.
Edgeworth operates the Truth and Science website — a site devoted to young earth creationism and debunking evolution.
Many years ago, Dr. Arv Edgeworth was asked to head up a Six-Step Problem Solving team for the General Motors Corporation. As part of his training he was taught in the proper use of the Scientific Method. His team had a 100% success rate. His love of science grew. He then began collecting science textbooks, collecting over 150 of them. He also collected, about 80 other books about science. He began to be very burdened over the Creation vs Evolution issue. In January of 1997, God called him into Creation Evangelism.
Dr. Edgeworth has given over 450 seminars on the Creation vs Evolution issue in churches and schools in 27 different states. He now sends newsletters to thousands of scientists, science teachers, pastors, churches, and many others.
In his first email to me, Edgeworth asks me why I left Christianity and why I consider myself an atheist. I find such questions annoying. Even a superficial perusal of this site would direct a person to the page WHY? On this page are numerous articles answering Edgeworth’s questions. Alas, many Evangelicals lack curiosity, as I make clear in a post titled Curiosity, A Missing Evangelical Trait.
Edgeworth promised not to be judgmental if I responded to his email, but as you will see below, he failed to keep his word.
I did not respond to Edgeworth; my editor, Carolyn, did. Carolyn has been my editor for years. When I am not feeling well — and currently in a tough spot physically — Carolyn will answer some of my emails, especially those that can be answered without theological or philosophical responses. Edgeworth asked a question, to which Carolyn, my Internet wife, replied:
Mr. Edgeworth,
I am Bruce’s editor and sometimes-answerer of his emails. Please read all the links on the Why page on Bruce’s blog, The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser, and you will have an understanding of why and how he left Christianity. The short answer is that after he retired, he began to examine all of the tenets of Christianity and how they didn’t fit together and how they contradicted one another, and he reached the point where he no longer believes in the basics of Christianity — the virgin birth, the miracles Jesus supposedly performed, his alleged resurrection, heaven, hell, angels, satan, etc. The more he examined, the more he realized he didn’t believe. He cannot worship a god who would have a hell and a lake of fire where a god tortures certain people for eternity after our relatively short stay on earth.
Carolyn Patrick, editor for Bruce Gerencser
Excellent response. Short and to the point, directing Edgeworth to where he could find fuller explanations for why I converted.
Of course, Edgeworth couldn’t be bothered to do his homework — yet he wants everyone on this site to read his website. He shows no awareness of my background or that I was a college-trained IFB/Evangelical pastor for twenty-five years. There’s nothing in my story that remotely suggests I was a liberal Christian; that I had head knowledge, but had never been born again. Both of these claims are patently false.
The “non-judgmental” Edgeworth is, in fact, judgmental, consigning me to Hell because I don’t believe as he does. He predicts (and knows for sure) that I am headed for Hell and assumes the same about Carolyn.
Here’s what he said:
Hi Carolyn,
Thank you for your reply concerning why Bruce left “Christianity” and became an atheist. The things you told me about Bruce seem to indicate clearly that Bruce may have had a head knowledge about God, and considered himself to be a “Christian,” but has never experienced the new birth. That often happens if someone is in a liberal denomination that does not preach and teach the true gospel. They are “Christians” in name only.
I can predict one thing for sure. Bruce will believe in God, and heaven and hell in the future: one moment after he dies. It is a terrible thing for Bruce that he never experienced true Christianity. How about you Carolyn? Would you like to be 100% sure about your eternity? You can be. You owe it to yourself and to Bruce to at least check it out. I hope you and Bruce have a great eternity. Eternity is a long time to be wrong! Please check this out for yourself. You will be eternally grateful that you did!
Are you telling me that you relied only on my writing to make the decision that Bruce had “head knowledge” but didn’t experience a “new birth”? Are you telling me that you didn’t read the links on the Why page of Bruce’s blog? If so, SHAME ON YOU! Don’t take my word for it, read Bruce’s own words, his own writing. I am fully convinced that Bruce was born again when he was 15 and had a personal relationship with Jesus for more than 25 years. Bruce was not in a liberal denomination but was the pastor of several Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) churches. He preached and taught the true gospel. He would have been a Trump supporter in his Christian days.
I am an agnostic atheist. I have no belief in any god or gods – not yours, not the Catholic god, not the Pentecostal god, not the Episcopalian god, not the Baptist god, not the Methodist god, not the Mormon god . . . . Need I go on? I have no belief in any god. If scientifically valid evidence were presented to me by a god, I might (or might not) believe in her, but as things stand now, I have seen no evidence for the existence of any god, and I therefore have no belief in any god. I am 100% sure about my eternity, and yours too. Yours will be the same as mine and Bruce’s.
Carolyn Patrick, editor for Bruce Gerencser
Edgeworth replied (relevant parts quoted):
Hi Carolyn,
I have finished reading most of the “Why” section on Bruce’s blog. I did skim through a few things, just focusing on the most important. I then compared them with the things you said about yourself. I hope you won’t mind if I try to put a few things into perspective.
…
Your Beliefs and Bruce’s
Bruce refers to himself as an atheist. You refer to yourself as an agnostic atheist. All of this is based on what you choose to believe. The same can be said for the evolutionist. What I don’t see in any of this is a sincere desire to know the TRUTH. Where does REALITY fit into any of this? What about the REALITY of what actually happened in the past, is happening now, or will happen in the future? Does that matter to you?
I have a PASSION for TRUTH! Judging from what you have said: It doesn’t appear that either you or Bruce have any desire to actually KNOW what the TRUTH is. The word “science” means “to know.” It doesn’t mean “to believe.” You and Bruce have every right to choose to believe what you want to. But what about the TRUTH about what actually IS?
The existence of God is based in the REALITY of what actually is. What anyone chooses to believe or not believe has no bearing on the REALITY of what actually is. That is why the Supreme Court ruled that Atheism is a religion. At least they got that one right. Just my personal belief.
For example: You say that my eternity will be the same as both yours and Bruce’s. That isn’t something that you know or can be known is it? You may choose to BELIEVE that, but it will have no effect on the REALITY of what actually IS.
Evolution Can Be Easily Disproven!
I could give you the scientific evidence to prove that. The real facts though seldom result in people changing their mind about what they have chosen to believe. God exists, but He will only prove that to you if you are honestly seeking the TRUTH.
We all fit into one of two categories:
(1) An honest seeker of TRUTH.
(2) A protector of a BELIEF SYSTEM.
What you choose to believe, has no effect on the REALITY of what actually IS. I wish nothing but the best for both of you. The TRUTH really will set you free.
In Search of the TRUTH,
Dr. Arv Edgeworth
Several hours later, Edgeworth wrote:
Hi Carolyn,
I was curious how you could feel so confident Bruce at one time was a born-again Christian unless you had perhaps experienced the same thing yourself. Do you have a story to tell?
Using Bruce’s logic though, if I were to observe a smashed Chevrolet, I would contact General Motors and tell them I could no longer believe in them as a great company because they build automobiles that people can smash. In fact, I am beginning to believe that they no longer exist, or perhaps never did. Same logic?
Also, for a fundamental Baptist preacher to pastor several churches while at the same time, having a mistress on the side, and the probable guilt and shame that he carried with him, but claim that had nothing to do with where he is at today, might lead someone to think he is delusional, at least to himself. But I do not judge him for that, we all fail at times.
By the way, do you know why God gave us the 10 Commandments? To prove to us that we couldn’t keep them, and needed a Savior to die in our place.
But having said all I have, I can guarantee, based on the infallible Word of God, that God still loves both of you, and desires nothing but the very best for your lives. That will never change, because God never changes. He may choose to operate differently at times, but He is unchangeable. He is a God you can trust, no matter how certain experiences may lead you to believe otherwise.
God could have built a bunch of robots that would always do right, but in accordance with His love, justice, mercy, and wisdom, He choose to form the Earth to be inhabited by fallible humans such as you and I.
As the loving father welcomed the prodigal son with open arms, God will do the same for you.
In Christian Love,
Certainty — a foundational belief for IFB Christians — breeds arrogance, and Edgeworth is certainly that. Without getting into a long debate, let me answer several of Edgeworth’s claims.
About my “chosen” beliefs. It is debated whether any of us chooses to believe. For the sake of argument, I will accept Edgeworth’s claim that I chose to be an atheist. I chose to be an atheist based on my careful, painful re-examination of the central claims of Christianity. This was me seeking TRUTH. Edgeworth seems unaware that I am a college-trained pastor, spent twenty-five years in the ministry, preached over 4,000 sermons, and spent over 20,000 hours reading and studying the Bible. It is disingenuous for Edgeworth to claim that I was not a sincere seeker of truth. You are fucking kidding me, right? I have spent more time and effort in understanding the teachings of the Bible than most Christians, including preachers. What, exactly, does Edgeworth think I “missed?” He has no evidence for his claims about my life. He asked for no clarifications and made little to no effort to understand my story. To Edgeworth, I say, the triune God of the Bible said: Answering before listening is both stupid and rude. (Proverbs 18:13) Do better, Edgeworth, do better. I am not your typical atheist. I am not ignorant about Christian theology or church history. I am conversant in all things Christian.
I am baffled as to why Edgeworth brings up evolution. What I believe about the beginning of the universe and how best to explain the natural world has nothing to do with atheism. Atheism is a singular claim about the lack of existence of deities. That’s it. I know several Christians who accept evolution as a scientific fact. Thus, one can believe the core doctrines of Christianity and evolution at the same time. To suggest otherwise means that salvation is by “right belief” and not faith.
I am a sincere seeker of truth. Edgeworth can’t accept this fact, of course, because it doesn’t comport with his peculiar claims. That my proverbial peg doesn’t fit in his hole is his problem, not mine. If Edgeworth wants to challenge my beliefs, I’m game. I am, however, not interested in discussions with people who do not respect me enough to accept my story at face value. Edgeworth says he’s a Christian. As a man who respects others, I accept his story at face value. It would be nice if Edgeworth would do the same. I know, I know, Edgeworth is an IFB preacher. Scores of Edgeworths have emailed me and commented on this site. I have generally found IFB preachers to be “Assholes for Jesus.”
In his last email, Edgeworth questioned whether I was a real Christian since I admitted to having an affair! This ludicrous and false statement suggests that Edgeworth did not carefully read the posts on the WHY? page. Had he done so, he would have learned that the post It’s Time to Tell the Truth: I Had an Affair is satirical.
Edgeworth mentions the Ten Commandments and the infallibility of the Bible, as well as arrogantly saying, based on evidence he does not have, nor can he possibly have, “I can guarantee, based on the infallible Word of God, that God still loves both of you, and desires nothing but the very best for your lives.”
How could Edgeworth possibly know that God still loves me and desires nothing but the best for my life? Does he know the mind of God? How does he know I’m not a reprobate or an apostate? I can definitively prove that I am both — gladly so. And as far as the Protestant Bible being (inerrant) and infallible, give me a break. That claim carries no weight and can easily be disproven. Edgeworth is King James Only. I assume he believes the KJV is infallible too, and not just the original manuscripts — which are not extant.
To Edgeworth, I say, if you want to talk about the law of God or the inerrancy/infallibility of the Bible, I’m game. As far as evolution is concerned, I am not a scientist. I have no relevant expertise regarding evolution. Others on this site do, some of whom are trained scientists, so if they want to engage you on matters of science, I am sure they will respond.
Wade in if you dare, Arv, but please know that this site is not a den of “ignorant” atheists or people who, as your friend said, “reject the authority of God in their lives.” For me personally, I think you will find that I can adequately and competently discuss Christian theology with you — especially in its Evangelical and IFB varieties.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Recently, a Christian man named Stanley left the following comment on the post Why I Hate Jesus. My response follows. All spelling, grammar, and punctuation in the original.
Have you ever wondered what life was like for those who worshiped God before the Bible existed? How did they live for Him and connect with Him in a time when there were no written scriptures? If you can relate to this and seek to connect with the same true God that Jesus Himself believed in, you will break free from the limitations of human knowledge and step into a higher realm of understanding.
Countless deities existed and were worshipped before the Jewish and, later, the Christian God. These deities existed before the Bible, even though they are mentioned numerous times in the Good Book. Contrary to what Christians would have us believe, their deity is a human construct — as all deities are. How did you pick out your version of God from all the other extant deities? How do you know that this deity is the “true God?” According to orthodox Christian teaching, Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) are God. Jesus didn’t believe in God, he was God.
What evidence do you have for your claim that there is a “higher realm of understanding,” higher than human knowledge? I know of no other realm of understanding than human knowledge. By all means, educate me, but unsupported claims and anecdotal stories will not suffice. You make all sorts of claims in your comment that cannot be supported by empirical evidence.
God is spirit, and those who believe in Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (pure heart). Spirituality was never meant to be pursued solely for intellectual knowledge but to be experienced. The deep mysteries of the Spirit, hidden within the Bible, cannot be uncovered by human reasoning alone( flesh and blood)—they must be revealed in real time by the Spirit Himself ( the holy spirt) to those who are truly seeking.
What “deep mysteries of the Bible” are hidden in the Scriptures? No need to list all of them, but list the top five “mysteries” that cannot be understood apart from Holy Spirit illumination.
What makes you a “true seeker” where others are not? What’s the special sauce on your ribs that others do not have? This claim of yours drips with arrogance.
I was a Christian for fifty years and a pastor for twenty-five of those years. I have firsthand knowledge and understanding of religious experiences. That said, my experiences were never separated from my knowledge — even though I ultimately learned that my knowledge was ill-informed. Humans have all sorts of experiences that run contrary to knowledge. How do we determine what is true? Not by our feelings and personal experiences. Just because you feel or experience your peculiar version of God doesn’t mean that said God is real. Countless Christians believe God talks to them and answers their prayers. When asked for evidence for fantastical claims, none is forthcoming.
Unfortunately,Years of studying scripture do not automatically grant access to these true spiritual experiences. It all depends on God’s will and our willingness to surrender human wisdom for a higher knowledge that is beyond this world. To truly walk this path, one must die to the old self and be reborn in the Spirit (death and resurrection). Mere belief is not enough—there are works of the Spirit that must be lived out in the physical realm, and only a few ever find this path and are willing to pay the prize because it will strip you of all of your human possessions— both physically and mentally.
Well, ain’t you special.
Previously, you said that this divine knowledge and experience you say you have comes through worshipping God in spirit and truth. Now, you say that this knowledge and experience are dependent on it aligning with God’s will. Which is it? How can you possibly know God’s will when his thoughts and ways are not yours? Are you blessed with some sort of inside, gnostic knowledge?
I know the Bible inside and out. Further, I also had countless, deep religious experiences. I likely felt and experienced some of the very things you have. Are you doubting my experiences? The difference between us is that I learned that my experiences did not comport with reality. Just because I passionately and fervently claimed that God heard my prayers and answered them doesn’t mean he did. Of course, I eventually learned my experiences were fueled by religious indoctrination and conditioning, as well as being born into a Christian family and living in a predominantly Christian culture.
If you desire to seek this higher knowledge in an experiential way rather than a theoretical one, begin with this: Fast and pray for three days if you are able. At bedtime, simply say, “Lord Jesus, reveal Yourself to me as the true Son of God.” Meditate on these words with an open heart, and prepare yourself for a true encounter with the spiritual realm—a reality far beyond anything you have known in this world.
Better than sex? I doubt it.
I eat very little most days due to gastroparesis and endocrine pancreatic insufficiency, so no fasting for me unless I want to die from malnutrition. You would think God would cure me of these diseases so I can properly seek and know him using the “Official Stanley Method of Seeking and Finding God.” I did, however, pray the OSMSFG prayer. God’s response? Silence. I prayed it again, same result. Utter silence. And even if God revealed himself to me, how could I possibly know that this experience was anything other than the result of taking narcotics and cannabis? How could I possibly tell the difference between being high and a “true encounter with the spiritual realm—a reality far beyond anything you have known in this world?”
Your comment is long on claims and personal experiences and woefully short on evidence. Why should I treat your claims differently from those made by anyone else?
I have many experiences, many that I cannot speak off because they are personal and others that are people related-I share with them as lead by the spirit of God.
I have had many experiences, too, in my sixty-eight years of life. Why should I treat your experiences differently from my own? The difference between you and me is that I am willing to share my experiences, especially when using them to justify my beliefs or decisions.
Man is spirit, and you do not need to die physically to experience the life in the Spirit that has been promised through Christ’s blood and resurrection. May God bless you as you continue seek to know him more than words . Salvation is personal. First you have to be saved before saving others . Again , Many would say – saved from what ? The answer is in the spirit not in this world
What evidence do you have for your claim that “man is spirit?” You want to claim knowledge apart from the Bible, yet you claim beliefs that are only found in the Scriptures. Which is it? As far as I know, there’s no empirical evidence for the claim that man is spirit. You claim that you have a superior life to mine, thanks to some sort of supernatural experience. However, you provide no evidence for your claim apart from “Stanley says so.” Did you really expect to reach me without providing evidence for your claims?
You claim that salvation is personal. This claim reveals that you are not well-versed in what the Bible says about salvation, particularly in the Old Testament.
As an atheist, I learned that I don’t need salvation; that there’s nothing I need to be saved from outside of my cats using me as a launching pad while I sit in the living room watching TV. Salvation is a religious construct, one meant to keep clerics employed, asses in pews, and money in offering plates. It’s a con that religions have been running for thousands of years.
If you plan on responding to this post, please note how many times I asked you for evidence for your claims. If you cannot or will not provide this evidence, then there’s no reason for you to respond. Your personal experiences and feelings are yours alone and carry no weight with me. If they have provided you peace, happiness, and purpose in your life, fine, go with God. However, I have peace, happiness, and purpose in my life — as do countless atheists on this site — without God, the Bible, Christianity, the church, or any of the other religious entrapments you deem important.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
In 2023, Richard, an Evangelical Christian, sent me an email, to which I responded in the post Dear Richard, the Evangelical Christian. Richard did not respond to my post, either by commenting or sending me an email. In 2024, Richard sent me another email, Dear Richard, the Evangelical Christian — Round Two. In what is turning out to be an annual affair, Richard sent me another email, which follows. I will attempt to respond to Richard again. (All spelling, grammar, and punctuation in the original.)
Bruce, it has been awhile since I last corresponded with you. I noticed that you provided a couple of updates on 3/5/2025 where you shared a bit more about your life growing up. At times, it sounded pretty tumultuous, like life can be. Jesus certainly did not have it easy either.
In what way did Jesus have it “hard”? Outside of the 48-72 hours detailing his arrest, crucifixion, and burial, I find nothing in Scripture that suggests Jesus had a hard life. He might have had such a life, but we have no evidence that justifies such a claim. Even when we consider his suffering, it didn’t last long and does not compare to those who suffer years on end. (Please see I Wish Christians Would Be Honest About Jesus’ Three Day Weekend.)
King Herod wanted to kill him, so Joseph was instructed to take the family to Egypt and he quickly did as he was told. There was a certain similarity between the one you thought was your Dad and Joseph.
Robert Gerencser was no Joseph. He was largely an absentee father who repeatedly moved his family across the country because he couldn’t pay the rent or properly care for his wife and children. Dad didn’t attend my school or sporting events, never sent my children gifts for Christmas after promising to do so year after year, and stole money and property that belonged to me. Imagine being sent to school without lunch money or having to shoplift to have clothes.
As far as Dad’s motivations, I suspect he wanted to be viewed by others as successful and financially well-off. Simply put, he lived beyond his means, and his family suffered. For years, I hated my dad for all the moving, and the fact that I attended ten schools in three states. This was no way to raise and care for children.
You found out considerably later in life that you undoubtedly had another Dad you had never met. Joseph had been advised by Gabriel that Jesus’ Dad was God the Father, although it sounds quite clear from the Bible that his parents never revealed his origin in life to Him. Fear of being at odds with the religious establishment of the day was probably why Jesus and his half-brothers were not told of His supernatural beginnings by His mother and step-father. I do not believe that their role in His life caused them to love Jesus any less than the other children they had.
I found out who my biological father was via a DNA test. You make a lot of claims about Jesus and his parentage but provide no evidence for these assertions. A DNA test for Jesus would be nice. I get it, by faith you believe the supernatural claims in the Bible. However, I am not a person of faith, so if you want me to believe your claims, I will need more evidence than personal opinions. You are free to believe what you want, but I suspect your emails are an attempt to persuade me of the truthfulness of your claims. So far, I am unpersuaded.
Growing up in life, I was always told that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. One of the major problems with the doctrine of eternal security is that human beings and angels both have free wills. Satan chose to rebel against God, along with a third of the angels in heaven, and, as a result, they were cast out of heaven for their attempted insurrection/rebellion. We, as human beings, can choose to follow Jesus or we can choose to walk away from Him.
There is so much wrong with this paragraph that I don’t know where to begin.
First, both Calvinism and Arminianism — in all their flavors — are taught in the Bible. I concluded long ago that the Bible can be used to prove almost anything; when determining which Christian sect is right, I decided all of them are. Each sect, church, pastor, and individual Christian appeals to the Bible as justification for their beliefs. Who is right, and who is wrong? How do we determine who is right?
I reject the notion that humans have libertarian free will. I didn’t believe this as an Evangelical, and I certainly don’t believe it now. A lifetime of Evangelical and rightwing indoctrination and conditioning largely determined what I would believe, both as a child and an adult. There was nothing “free” about this process. If you would like to have an in-depth discussion about free will, let me know, and I will write an in-depth post (or series of posts) on this subject.
Let me add that Satan is not mentioned anywhere in the Old Testament. Evangelicals make a lot of assumptions about Satan. For example, most Evangelicals believe that the snake in the Garden of Eden was Satan. However, there’s not a shred of evidence for this claim.
Judas Iscariot was given numerous opportunities by Jesus to avoid the path of destruction his life ofbetrayal charted for him, but the love of money was too strong a temptation for him to resist. It also did not help that he was a thief as well.Jesus was certainly willing to forgive him.
Not according to the Bible. Judas was the Son of Perdition, chosen by God to betray Jesus. Since Jesus was a lamb slain before the foundation of the world, every aspect of Jesus’s birth and death were predetermined. God is sovereign over all things, including Jesus’s life and death.
Where does the Bible say Jesus was willing to forgive Judas? No, Jesus, the God-man, knew exactly what would happen to him. He knew when, where, and how Judas would betray him.
Initially, when the two thieves were being crucified with Jesus, they both railed against Him and were as abusive as the others who were mocking Him. (Matthew 27:44). Yet, in Luke 23:39-43, we read that when one of the thieves asked Jesus in humility to remember him when He came into His kingdom, Jesus was quick to assure him that he would be with Him in paradise that very day. In this life, what counts is how we finish and not how we start out. The thief who had the best ending never even got baptized.
All of us are privileged to be alive at this time in human history. There is much deception and an inordinate amount of erroneous information. The Bible tells the good, the bad, and the ugly. It has nothing to hide. When Jesus was crucified, his disciples concluded that he would stay dead, yet he showed Himself to them on multiple occasions prior to ascending into heaven. From being totally dispirited and discouraged, they became transformed and turned the world upside down with the Good News that death was defeated and we could be reconciled to God because Jesus died in our place for our sins.
Where does the Bible say one of the thieves got baptized? Both died on the cross, and were either left on the cross to rot or were thrown in an unmarked grave for criminals. I suspect Jesus ended up in a similar grave. There’s nothing in the Biblical account that suggests either thief was baptized.
Did the disciples really turn the world upside down? What evidence do you have for this claim? Jesus, at the time of his death, was largely a failure. When his followers gathered in the Upper Room after his death, how many were there? About 120. Jesus was largely ignored by both Jews and Gentiles alike, and it would be hundreds of years, thanks to Constantine, before Christianity numerically grew. I am not saying the disciples didn’t spread the gospel, but most Evangelicals grossly overestimate the influence Christians had on society during the early years of Christianity.
One of the biggest stumbling blocks that Satan uses today are “Christians” who become his mouthpieces/servants by words they say and actions they take. You had your share of such people crossing your path over the years Bruce. Even Job had to contend with that. His wife and his three friends were not much of a comfort to him during his trials. Jesus does not behave that way.
Let me be clear, I deconverted because I no longer believed the central claims of Christianity were true; that the core teaching of the church no longer made sense to me. (Please read The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.) I didn’t leave Christianity because I was hurt, bitter, angry, or any of the other false reasons ascribed to my deconversion story. Most of my negative experiences with Christians came AFTER I deconverted, not before. While I have certainly met some kind, thoughtful Christians post-Jesus, I have received countless emails, blog comments, social media messages, and snail mail letters from hateful, mean-spirited, nasty bullies-for-Jesus. I am talking about thousands of such interactions. The Bible says you can judge believers based on the fruit their lives produce. All I see is a rotting corpse.
Although in recent years, you have been working overtime to convince others there is no God, God in His mercy still very much loves you. He came into this world to save sinners. We are all sinners in need of a Saviour.
Speak for yourself; I am not a sinner.
You can’t possibly know if God loves me. I could be an apostate or a reprobate. I see no evidence for a God who “loves me, cares for me, and has a wonderful plan for my life.” All I see is an absentee God who doesn’t give a shit about me. Of course, I don’t think God exists, so my argument is with the Bible’s God — a divine being created by humans. Let me add in passing, do you know there are numerous deities in the Bible, beginning in Genesis 1? I encourage you to check out Dr. Dan McClellan’s work on this subject.
I spend very little time trying to convince people of anything, let alone atheism. I am just one man with a story to tell. If people find my story helpful, I am grateful. However, I DO NOT evangelize people for atheism. Sure, I critique Evangelical Christianity, but I do not attempt to bring people to the light. I am content to write, and let people do with my writing what they will. Unlike Richard and countless other Evangelicals, I have never gone to a Christian blog or website and tried to get people to deconvert.
You have a multitude of physical ailments Bruce but you are still alive. Where there is life, there is hope.
Hope for what? You seem to think that I am lacking in some way; that my life is missing something important. How can you possibly know this? Yes, I have serious health problems. Yes, I will likely die sooner, and not later. I know my days are numbered. Yet, you want me to waste my time worshipping a non-existent deity? No thanks. Been there, done that. I have weighed the claims of Christianity in the balance and found them wanting.
I do not believe God sends anyone to hell. He gives us a free will. We choose to live how we want to live. The actions we take are what decide our final/ultimate destination. Romans is a very good book which explains the difference between living for the flesh or walking in the Spirit. The flesh and its fleshly appetites bring death. The Spirit gives life. We all need to choose life!
If God is the sovereign creator of all things and the giver and taker of life, then our eternal destiny rests solely with him. Our salvation rests in God’s hands, not ours. According to the Bible, every word, thought, and deed is controlled by God. It seems in Richard’s theology, God is the only one who doesn’t have free will.
It is evident that Richard thinks my life is inferior and that what I need is what he has — Jesus. And if I would only read the book of Romans, I would understand this. First, I exegetically preached through the book of Romans twice. I know what the book says. Second, I am not interested in what the Bible says about anything. That’s why I ask people NOT to send me preachy emails. Richard ignored my request and has now sent me THREE preachy messages, as if he could possibly say something I haven’t heard countless times before.
Apart from chronic pain and chronic illness, I have a good life. I have been married to a wonderful woman for almost forty-seven years. We are blessed to have six adult children, three daughters-in-law, and sixteen awesome grandchildren. We own our home, drive a newer model automobile, and have four cats. I have, in every way, a supercalifragilisticexpialidocious life. Yes, death is stalking me, and, at times, I can feel its breath upon my neck. I try each and every day to live life to its fullest. I have no need for God, the church, or the Bible. Richard lives in a blinkered world where all that matters is Jesus. If that works for him — fine, but such a life does not interest me.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Someone using the moniker Samoan Hotty sent me the following email. All spelling and grammar in the original. My response follows:
Dear Bruce,
Rain falls on all of us,every single one of us. To some it is a welcomed shower and a source of water, to others it is nothing but an annoying nuisance that is cursed at.
Okay, and this has what to do with me, exactly?
Praying for you, your wife, your kids and your sweet precious grandkids.
Sigh. One more Christian who is allegedly praying for me and my family. Instead of doing something meaningful for me — cash, checks, and credit cards are welcome — Samoan Hotty offers up a meaningless prayer to the ceiling God. Scores of Christians have said they would pray for me — without success. Either there is no God, God didn’t hear their prayers, or they lied and didn’t really pray for me. Regardless, their prayers have not led to the saving of my soul or the death of my body — for those praying imprecatory prayers.
I’m only 29 and got 2 kids of my own and knowing their souls rest in Lord Father God’s hands and not in Satan’s gives me so much joy and relief.
How do you KNOW God or Satan exists? How do you KNOW your kids have souls, let alone their souls are resting in the hand of God? God must have pretty big hands if the souls of every believer rests in his hands. Or maybe, just maybe this is a cliche Evangelicals bandy about when wanting to convince themselves and others that God really, really cares for them and has a supercalifragilisticexpialidocious plan for their lives. No evidence is provided for these claims other than faith. That’s fine, but atheists find faith claims unconvincing, so don’t expect us to come running to Jesus.
I pray for their sake your pride does not turn your family away from knowing Lord Father God and getting to spend eternity with him.
What makes you think I have a problem with pride? Do you usually seek out strangers on the Internet and psychoanalyze them? You don’t know anything about me, yet you think it is okay to judge me.
My partner and I have been married for almost forty-seven years. We are blessed to have six adult children, ages 45, 43, 40, 35, 33, and 31. We also have three adult grandchildren, two of whom are in college, one studying pre-med at Ohio State University. and the other studying zoology at Miami University. We have five more grandchildren in middle school/high school, and eight grandchildren in elementary school. What they believe about a god or a religion is up to them, not me or their heathen mother/nana. I don’t talk about God/religion with them unless it naturally comes up in discussion or they ask me a question. Currently, son number two attends the Catholic Church with his family. The rest of the family does not attend church, though they do have varied beliefs about God and the afterlife. The choice of what to believe is theirs. When Polly and I deconverted seventeen years ago, we let our children, then sixteen to twenty-eight, know that they were free to make their own decisions about belief in God. If they choose to be atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, or Christians, that is on them. We will love and support them regardless of what path they take in life. Am I pleased that none of them wants anything to do with Evangelicalism? You bet.
Like the rich man said, had he known what it was gonna be like he would lived life differently.
You know that’s just a made-up story, right? The poor man in this story lived a miserable life, yet, in the end, he was given a bunk in paradise, safe from pain and suffering. Never asked about this story is why God let the poor man suffer his entire life without helping him?
I live my life as I please, with the clear understanding and knowledge that I will one day soon die. I have a lot of health problems that are working hard to kill me. One day, they will succeed. Until then, I plan to live each day to its fullest. What matters most to me is my family. I have no interest in God/church/Bible. My life is fine just the way it is. I know you have difficulty wrapping your mind around someone who does not want or need your God, but that’s your problem, not mine.
♡ I pray it’s not too late for you ♡ God Bless
Too late for what, exactly? Outside of better health, more money, and the Reds winning the World Series, I have everything I want and need in life. Well, a heated indoor swimming pool would be nice too, and a 1970 Nova SS.
Let me ask you, what did you hope to accomplish by contacting me? You knew I was an Evangelical Christian for fifty years. You knew I was a college-trained pastor for twenty-five years. I know the Bible inside and out — probably better than you. Did you really think you were going to say something I haven’t heard countless times before? Trust me, I haven’t heard an original argument for God/Christianity in years.
It is too late for me to return to Christianity. I no longer believe the central claims of Christianity are true. They no longer make any sense to me. (Please see The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.) To become a Christian again means repudiating everything I know to be true, and that ain’t going to happen.
If you have any questions, please let me know, and I will do my best to answer them.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Over the years, I have been threatened with Hell and eternal punishment by countless Evangelicals. Yesterday, a Christian reader named JT left the following comment. All spelling and grammar in the original.My response follows.
I don’t know if you been asked this, but when you die, what are you going to do if you end up in hell?
I have been asked this question numerous times. Threats of judgment and Hell are common from Evangelical readers.
I have no fear about ending up in Hell after I die. None whatsoever. Hell is a religious construct used by clerics to cause fear and elicit obedience. Remove fear of Hell from the equation, and churches would empty overnight. Without threats of Hell, offering plates would be empty and preachers unemployed. Can’t have that, so threats such as yours continue unabated.
I’ve seen no evidence for the existence of Hell. Further, the Hell JT speaks of is not taught in Scripture. A good book on this subject is Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife by Dr. Bart Ehrman. Ehrman’s book shows that what we were taught in Evangelical churches about the afterlife is untrue.
I know you don’t believe in it, it’s your free will to believe in whatever. But my question is, what IF you find out that hell was real?
I don’t believe in the existence of Hell. I have not seen one iota of evidence for its existence. If you want me to believe Hell is real, you are going to have to do more than quote proof texts or make bald assertions. Surely, you don’t believe without sufficient evidence. Just because a preacher reads a few Bible verses out of context about Hell and tells a few sermon illustrations about people who died and went to Hell doesn’t mean it exists. Preachers can and do lie, even if they do so unintentionally. I preached scores of sermons on Hell, yet I never looked at the original Hebrew and Greek behind the English words for Hell in the King James Version of the Bible. I never read any of the history behind the evolution of Hell. I took what the Bible said and what my pastors and professors said about Hell at face value. Surely they wouldn’t lie to me, right? Maybe, but they may have been products of the same indoctrination and conditioning as I was. Generation after generation is taught about the existence of Hell and the eternal damnation and suffering that awaits non-Christians after death. Not one pastor or professor, to quote Paul Harvey, told me the rest of the story. Their goal was the reinforcement of fundamentalist dogma, not knowledge about what the Bible teaches about Hell and the history surrounding the notion of eternal punishment and suffering for everyone who is not a Christian.
And I know what is gonna play in your head, all the people you got to turn from Christianity to Atheism… How do you think you will feel about that knowing you had everything when you were a preacher but only to find out you were wrong and you have led 100s if not 1000s of people away from something that indeed was true?
I am just one man with a story to tell. I am not an evangelist for atheism. I couldn’t care less whether someone deconverts. All I know to do is tell my story and provide an honest, thoughtful critique of Evangelical Christianity. If people deconvert after reading my writing, that’s on them, not me. I don’t pressure people to deconvert. No high-pressure soulwinning tactics. No altar calls.
Have people deconverted as a result of my writing? Sure. I have heard from scores of people who told me my work was instrumental in their loss of faith, including pastors, evangelists, youth workers, missionaries, and college professors. I am humbled that people find my writing helpful. If Christian apologists don’t like my writing, they are free to rebut and challenge me. Produce a podcast, start a blog, preach sermons, etc. I offer a standing invitation to Evangelicals (Muslims, Catholics, Mormons too) to write a guest post rebutting my writing. No editing, no strings attached. I’ve been blogging for seventeen years. I can count on one hand the Christians who have taken me up on this offer. Instead, most of my critics foam at the mouth and rage against me on social media, on their blogs/podcasts, and in their Sunday sermons. I have even offered to debate them publicly. No one has taken me up on the debate offer. Take Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiesen. Thiessen is a college-trained Evangelical preacher. He has written thousands of words attacking me personally or a particular subject I’ve written about on this site. I have challenged him to a public debate several times, without success. What is he so afraid of? I’ve even given him the opportunity to author guest posts for this site, which he did one time before bitching, moaning, and complaining about me changing his writing. I did no such thing, but ever the martyr, he thinks otherwise. Thiessen knows that he is free to respond to anything I have written on this site. Other critics know the same.
Just think about it. I’m not one of those judgemental Christians,
LOL! You threaten me with Hell, and then, with a straight face, you say you are NOT “one of those Christians.” Sure JT, sure.
I believe in God because of my death experience, the things that God has truly shown me… You could never change my mind about what I believe in and I’m sure that I can’t change you back to believing in Jesus.
How do you KNOW your peculiar God did anything for you? Outside of your feelings, what empirical evidence do you have for the existence of your God, and it was he alone who “showed” things to you? I am more than happy to have a discussion with you about the existence of the Christian God.
Unlike you. I am open to being persuaded that God exists. So far, no Christian has successfully persuaded me that their God exists and is personally involved in their lives. but I am not closed-minded. If you think you can prove to me the existence of your God, please do so. There are others on this site who would love to see your evidence for God, too. I’m an agnostic atheist, not an anti-theist. I’m open to persuasion, JT, so bring it on. Keep in mind, I have already heard virtually every defense of the one true faith, so you will need a new argument of some sort to persuade me.
God would have to make that happen..
Then my salvation is up to God, right? If I die and go to Hell, it’s God’s fault, right? God knows where I live. He knows my phone number and email address. He could even write a guest post for me. So far, God is silent. He’s not uttered one word to me outside of apologists who claim to speak for him. If God exists, the salvation of my soul is up to him, not me.
I think one day you may come back as God has not yet taken you out of this world yet… I think he has something up his sleeve that will pull you back to him.
What, exactly, does God have up his sleeve? He is all-powerful, so he could save me at any time. Yet, it’s been seventeen years since I deconverted, and God has not said one word to me or done anything that suggests to me he exists.
You make God sound like a magician — a deity that has a trick up his sleeve that will magically deliver me from atheism. I am confident that I will die sooner and not later, and when I die, it will be because of bad health or my partner crowning me with a Lodge cast iron skillet, and not because God killed me.
And if I was, per chance, drawn back to Christianity, it would not be Evangelicalism. That ship has sailed. I have seen and experienced the ugliness of Evangelicalism, and God himself couldn’t convince me to return to the fold.
Just know, satan hates me right now, because he has you at work, and I’m trying to disrupt that work.
My, oh my, you think highly of yourself; that Satan, the alleged God of this world hates you because you think you have interrupted his work in my life. Satan is no more real than God. You might want to do some reading on how the personage of Satan came into being. He is not who you think he is. You might find The Origin of Satan: How Christians Demonized Jews, Pagans, and Heretics by Dr. Elaine Pagels a good read on this subject.
All I can say is that I love you no matter what you believe in and I will be praying for you. Blessings,
I know you mean well, but you don’t know me, so you can’t possibly “love” me. I suspect you are used to the cheap love bandied about by Evangelicals. The same goes for “praying for me.” Are you really going to continually pray for me? I doubt it. Prayers come and go, and I suspect yours will do the same. I don’t say this to criticize you as much as to remind you that I was an Evangelical Christian for fifty years. I know how Evangelicals use the cheap cliche “I’m praying for you.” Besides, you threatened me with Hell, so I hope you will forgive me if I don’t think much of your love and prayers. Send me a couple of hundred-dollar bills along with your love and prayers, and I might think differently. 🙂
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
