Last November, Ohio voters approved an initiative that legalized the recreational use, sale, and cultivation of cannabis. Larger Ohio communities overwhelmingly approved the initiative, whereas rural communities opposed it — another blue communities, red communities divide that dominates Ohio politics.
Cannabis is legal. Using it recreationally is legal. Growing your own is legal. Legal, legal, legal, yet Bryan, Ohio’s council just passed a law that bans cannabis operations in the city.
The Bryan city council passes an ordinance to ban adult use cannabis operations in the city, but may discuss the issue again as more information is available. Council passed final reading on one ordinance which prohibits adult use cannabis operators, cultivators and dispensaries within the city altogether. It tabled another ordinance, which was also up for a third reading, which would have allowed such operations within certain sections of the city and with other limits. Council also voted down a third ordinance, which would have only prohibited those operations in the downtown area.
While the cannabis initiative explicitly allows communities to ban dispensaries within their jurisdictions, the question is this: why would a community want to do so?
Only three things should matter to Bryan’s council:
- Is cannabis legal?
- Will cannabis dispensaries provide new jobs?
- Will cannabis dispensaries generate significant tax revenue?
The answer is YES to all three questions. End of discussion. Yet, council members banned cannabis dispensaries anyway. Why is that?
Elected officials are duty-bound to represent and work on behalf of their constituents. Personal beliefs and morals do not matter. I suspect what drives the council’s no vote is personal objections to cannabis use or moral (religious) objections to its use. These things should not matter. Cannabis is legal, end of discussion. Dispensaries are legal, tax-generating businesses, end of discussion. Many Bryan residents want affordable access to cannabis, and regardless of the personal/moral beliefs of council members, they have every right to buy it within Bryan city limits.
I am sure Bryan’s council might argue that their ban is meant to lessen harm. “Cannabis use is harmful!” Sure, and so is drinking alcohol, vaping, and smoking, yet these vices are sold in countless Bryan stores. Why ban cannabis, and not alcohol, tobacco, and vaping products?
I hope Bryan’s council will re-evaluate this issue and rescind their ban. I am not a Bryan resident, but I was born in Bryan and live five miles to south of Bryan in Ney. We regularly shop and do business in Bryan. I want to see my hometown flourish, and cannabis dispensaries would do just that. Several years ago, Ney had an opportunity to have a medical marijuana dispensary locate within its jurisdiction. Ney’s mayor and council emphatically said NO! and ended all further discussion on the matter. Today, there’s a dispensary in nearby Sherwood — a community that was progressive enough to see that the dispensary was good for Sherwood. Ney? Lost tax revenues and business traffic.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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I was a bit surprised conservative Oxford, Michigan would vote more than 50% to allow it on the statewide ballot and then for the board to create an ordinance that allows it (only in the industrial sector and a certain distance from a school). Now we have 7 or 8 (!) Any bit of industrial property that fits the bill has one now. The reason is pretty simple why conservatives don’t like it. The whole war on marijuana was really a war on young and black people and the association with the street corners of “the ghetto” and the general higher crime of a city vs. the suburbs makes the association with crime a common misconception. Sadly your town is turning its back on a cash cow. That said, I have yet to see a benefit to residents, but it is good to have businesses where there was just a vacant gas station or field. (That said they can’t ALL survive…)
Troy: “The reason is pretty simple why conservatives don’t like it. The whole war on marijuana was really a war on young and black people and the association with the street corners of “the ghetto” and the general higher crime of a city vs. the suburbs”
Don: I think that is insane. It is a war FOR young and black people against the people who prey on them.
Troy: “Sadly your town is turning its back on a cash cow. ”
Don: So, you’ll sell the lives of the people you seem to think are being mistreated by the suburban whites for the tax revenue the city might make? Never mind the cost to the city of the drug culture.
I was going to ask of alcohol and tobacco were sold in Bryan, and you addressed that. What is the difference? Perception? Desire for control? If they had any sense, they would reap the tax revenue rewards, but GOPers often work against their own best interests.
Troy—Your observations are spot-on and illustrate how laws regarding drugs and alcohol have enforced racial, ethnic and class prejudices.
For example, nearly three centuries ago, social “reformer” Joseph Jekyll led a crusade that resulted on high taxes on gin and high license fees for gin sellers. Gin, first distilled in the Netherlands, became extremely popular with working-class English people because it was cheap to make. The so-called “gin craze” was blamed for working men not supporting their families and other social ills. Meanwhile, whisky—the libation of choice for the upper classes—was not targeted.
A parallel to what I described can be seen in Prohibition and the evolution of drug laws in the US. In the former, raids took place almost entirely in speakeasies, where common people did their drinking. Clubs and other venues open mainly to the better-connected were largely untouched. Some crime historians say that Prohibition made the Mafia and their allies the main organized crime force in the US as they were able to leverage the networks they developed into other enterprises once the 18th Amendment was repeated.
And the so-called War on Drugs, while declared by President Richard Nixon, actually had its roots a century earlier when—wait for it—immigrants from China and Mexico came to the US to build its railroads and work in its mines and fields. Early laws targeted opium, which Chinese workers smoked rather than cocaine, enjoyed almost exclusively by the affluent. iIn the 1980s and 1990’s, enforcement targeted crack, more widely distributed and used by black, brown and poor people, and mostly ignored powdered cocaine) and marijuana, the choice of Mexican workers.
As I mentioned in a comment on another post, I knew someone who was in the Coast Guard during the so-called War on Drugs and participated in the pursuit of boats used to bring illegal drugs into the US. “It’s bullshit,” he declared. “We could just as well burn the money we’re spending on it.” He—a Reagan Republican—believed that drugs should be “legalized and taxed, just like tobacco and alcohol.’
Yes Lisbeth, you got Bryan about right. Booze for me but no pot for thee. I escaped Bryan long ago but hypocrisy was a local feature. it was a lot like the village in the old movie “Peyton Place”. See that movie and you see the Bryan I knew. Every feature of it. A lot of tawdry behavior just out of sight. One of my privileged classmates disappeared from school every winter to spend it in Florida. One spring she brought back some pot weed. This was about 1950. None of us kids had ever heard of illegal drugs. Oh what a scandal, but gossip was all that happened to her. Some of us would have been off to reform school. At that time, beer joints were all over town, as I recall, about seven in a town with seven thousand people. I think they are all still there and even more, even a brewery in an abandoned church. Folks who don’t want pot dispensaries run the beer joints. So no pot for you. Oh well , Sherwood is just down the road.
Lisbeth I didn’t know gin was a Dutch thing. My old man was frankly an alcoholic who spent more in Bryan’s beer joints than on his family. I don’t recall him ever drinking gin but it’s still popular in Netherlands. I was advised to bring gin as a gift for elderly Dutch cousins I visited in rest homes. Pot for me gin for thee.
I’m of the view that if all currently-prohibited drugs were legalised tomorrow, tightly regulated, and produced via safe means, you’d put a huge dent in the illegal drugs trade, and all the horrid activities funded by said trade. Not only that, but selling such products in a safe, controlled environment could also be married to rehabilitation efforts. Plus, from a purely cynical perspective, it could generate huge sums of money for governments to then reinvest.
Are dry counties still a thing in Ohio? When I was working in Archbold last year I do recall that the beer offerings seemed a little limited at the (few) restaurants I went to. Had to go into Defiance to find decent craft beer… It sounds like Bryan is singling out weed, but I’d assume that in the past they were just as pearl-clutching about alcohol… meaning that in a few years after dispensaries are normalized throughout the state a few new people will be on the town council and knock that restriction off the books. (Your neighbor, Indiana, can’t even get legalization on our ballot, so we’ll be handing our hard earned money to Ohio just as we’ve been to Michigan and Illinois in recent years.)
I consider marijuana a gateway drug. I’ve seen kids begin with smoking it and in a year they are using harder drugs and too many are ODing. Far too many. It seems innocent enough and “harmless” but the outcome down the road is not. So, even though it does no good for one small town to ban marijuana, it is a statement I approve of.
https://www.vox.com/2016/4/29/11528410/cannabis-gateway-drug-theory
Don Camp isn’t one for evidence, as I’m sure you’re aware!
My evidence was the kids I taught in high school.
Hmmm… I think you mean anecdotal evidence.
I once ate peas then got the flu. Apparently peas cause the flu.
I also bought a new pair of winter boots, but when I walked on ice I slipped and fell. As I sat there, I watched a kid wearing running shoes slide right across the ice then walk on. So winter boots make you fall on the ice.
I know. 😢😢
Bruce in an earlier post actually admits that marijuana users often go on to use “hard drugs” but argues there is no causal link. But really, does that matter. That is really just an excuse. The fact is that drugs lead to more drugs and before long kids are dead.
Bruce and I both grew up in a time when drugs use was limited – yes, there was such a time. It was not until college that I even heard of death by drugs (alcohol and cigarettes excepted). It was LSD then. I had a cousin die from LSD. You may remember the “Tune in; turn on; drop out” generation and Timothy Leary?
But every day there are reports of kids dying from fentanyl. And that is not to speak of people destroying their lives on meth, or whatever the drug of the month is.
Is that the price you are willing to pay for the freedom to buy marijuana at the cannabis shop down the street?
Don: Bruce in an earlier post actually admits that marijuana users often go on to use “hard drugs” but argues there is no causal link. But really, does that matter. That is really just an excuse. The fact is that drugs lead to more drugs and before long kids are dead.
Bruce: The fact is that children who ride tricycles later drive cars, and some of them die in accidents. Correlation does not equal causation, and even if it did, most cannabis users do not go on to become regular users of hard drugs. Millions of American minors use marijuana, yet most of them don’t go on to regularly use hard drugs and die before expected.
Don: Bruce and I both grew up in a time when drugs use was limited – yes, there was such a time. It was not until college that I even heard of death by drugs (alcohol and cigarettes excepted). It was LSD then. I had a cousin die from LSD. You may remember the “Tune in; turn on; drop out” generation and Timothy Leary?
Bruce: I came of age in the late 60s and 70s. Drug use, especially cannabis, was common. Marijuana smoke would roll out of the bathrooms during school days.
Don: But every day there are reports of kids dying from fentanyl. And that is not to speak of people destroying their lives on meth, or whatever the drug of the month is.
Bruce: Children can and do die from all sorts of things — including drug overdose. That said, most fentanyl related fatal drug overdoses come from the 25-54 age bracket.
https://drugabusestatistics.org/drug-overdose-deaths/
Don: Is that the price you are willing to pay for the freedom to buy marijuana at the cannabis shop down the street?
Bruce: since your premise for determining cost is false, we still must determine what the price actually is. Should we ban everything that can cause harm (especially to children). I can argue that Evangelical Christianity harms children. I can give evidence to bolster this claim. Should we not, then, ban Christianity, at least for children?
Bruce: ” we still must determine what the price actually is.>
”
Don: The price is DEATH. “More than 5,000 children and teens have died from overdoses involving fentanyl in the past two decades, according to data published Monday in JAMA Pediatrics.” That was in the three years between 2018 and 2021.
The causes are multiple and complex. But your seeming nonchalance about drugs, beginning with decriminalization of marijuana and availability in every town in the country is part of the problem. And why? Because you want to use it? That is extraordinarily self-centered attitude.
I already use cannabis for health reasons. I just want to do it legally.
I can show that Evangelical Christianity harms children at a higher rate than illegal drugs. Should we not, then, ban children from attending churches (where they can also be exposed to drugs, alcohol, porn, and premarital sex)? It would seem “selfish” to say otherwise.
Or, we can conclude that all sorts of things cause harm. I can list a dozen things off the top of my head that are more harmful to children than illegal drugs.
I support cannabis legalization and the decriminalization of currently used illegal drugs. I also support strict regulation. I can support both.
“ The causes are multiple and complex. But your seeming nonchalance about drugs, beginning with decriminalization of marijuana and availability in every town in the country is part of the problem. And why? Because you want to use it? That is extraordinarily self-centered attitude.”
Yeah…um..Don, think you should review the picture at the top of this post. It fits your comment spot on.
🙄🙄🙄
I don’t know about “good people.” But I would say that smart people do not smoke marijuana. But smart people don’t smoke cigarettes either. Both destroy lives starting with the one who smokes them. The difference is that cigarettes have not led to stronger and more lethal drugs, drugs that kill more quickly than cigarettes, drugs that kill kids before they get smart and avoid them.
In a previous era during the debate about cigarettes quitting was argued on the basis of the cost to society. And there is significant cost. Today the issue of the cost to society is pretty much ignored. It is a victimless crime, after all. Right? Why should anyone care? Well, tell that to the parents of kids who ODed the first time the kids used drugs jacked up with fentanyl.
We probably will not ever eliminate all drug use, but we certainly can choose not to make them assessable by allowing cannabis shops to proliferate. And we can and must make it very clear that “recreational drugs” of any kind are harmful and their use is stupid.
This argument is just a mosh of nonsense.
Whether you use “good” or “smart” the point is the same. You judge others as somehow inferior.
It is also important to point out that society has already gone to great lengths to make these drugs inaccessible, yet they still accessible. Walk down to your corner drug store and ask them to sell you fentanyl. Even better, go to your doctor and ask for the drug just because you want it. Or even better, go to your doctor with good reason to have an heavy drug and see exactly how long it takes you to acquire heavy pain killers. Things are so regulated you can’t get prescriptions filled even 1 day early.
And even with all of that, the illegal drug trade still exists. In every town. Everywhere. For as long as illegal drugs have been illegal.
Also, cigarette use and alcohol, by your logic, could also be “gateway drugs”. I know several people who smoked or drank alcohol before getting into addictive, dangerous drugs. I know people who drank and took drugs at the same time. Obviously they are connected, right?
And smoking was not reduced due to the cost to society. Secondhand smoke was the main argument to reduce smoking in public which appears to have lead to a reduction in general. I suspect the high taxes also helped.
None of this will matter to you. I am sure you will post another mindless diatribe to attempt to prove your opinion with yet more opinions.
Opinions? Why don’t you take a walk through some of the homeless camps. Not only will you find drug addicts a plenty but the producers and sellers of the drugs. Or hang out around virtually any public high school at break or end of the day. I could look out the window of the school where I worked and watch drug deals going down. That is not opinion. It is fact.
Drugs – street drugs – are a plague on this land.
Regulation has done little to curb drug use. But there is nothing smart about encouraging and making easily available the drugs that are killing people and society.
And I was right, another mindless diatribe.
Your judgmental approach and assumptions are useless. I have been in homeless camps, have you? I have personally spoken with people struggling with homelessness and their heads about their struggles. I have sat in the streets with them, shared meals with them, and financially helped people who were trying their best to improve, have you?
I know people who struggle with drug addiction every day. I support when they need it, supporting them when they fail and encouraging them to move forward. I have supported old friends as they struggle in their addiction.
But I suppose it is easier to stand by the window looking down on those “stupid” drug users getting their next fix.
Your opinion is that marijuana is a gateway drug. No evidence to support this, so you instead fall back on all drugs are bad and people who use them are “stupid”. Brilliant logic.
If laws don’t work, then maybe you can personally do something to help people stuck in addiction. If you are doing this already, good, if not then it is better to keep quiet. Preachy attitudes do nothing to help.
You might want to check the mirror … your privilege is showing
As a matter of fact I am helping a guy get back on an even keel. He has been a drug addict, a heavy drinker. He is gay, and he has serious mental issues. I take him almost once a week to doctors and therapists. I Get him to food banks and clothing banks and I have provided serious financial help over about six months. He has burned about every bridge with his family and is getting no help from them. He is not a success story yet, but he is handling life better than he has since I got to know him.
My pastor is also involved in helping as are others in m y church. Not all Christians are bad guys.
Good, then it may be that you are one of the few people who identify as Christian who are not just judging without helping.
But here is the thing..you still judge. You called people who use drugs “stupid”- surely, if you do what you say, you know that drug use happens for all kinds of reasons, not just because people are stupid or want to be cool.
And all of this isn’t evidence that marijuana is a gateway drug. Again, that is simply your opinion, not proven by facts.
I guarantee you Don judges. That’s what Evangelicals do. How can it be otherwise? Their theology demands that they love what God loves and hate what God hates. Of course, God always loves/hates what they do. Funny how that works.
I use cannabis, as do other people on this site. Are we “stupid” for doing so? Don thinks so, yet has no idea why any of us use marijuana (or any other drug, for that matter).
Don—It’s, shall we say, interesting that you mention that he is gay and “has serious mental issues” in the same sentence.
Thery are not connected. His mental issues is bi-polar disorder. His homosexuality “may” be associated with an unbelievably terrible childhood when his father regularly sexually assaulted him. But maybe not.
I included that simply because there is a suggestion that Christians are anti-homosexual. Truth, some are and some not. Probably that is fairly in line with the general population.
I detect on this blog a prejudice that casts Christians as white and privileged homophobic and racist. That may be your experience, but it is not mine. Our congregation, in fact, is mixed racially. Our pastor is black and from New Orleans. My friend who I am currently involved in trying to rescue from homelessness is gay.
I don’t believe that homosexuality is a sin. What is a sin is living outside God’s design for live. https://biblicalmusing.blogspot.com/2023/01/homosexuality.html
Let me correct this for you:
I detect on this blog [in Bruce Gerencser’s writing and the comments of some readers] a prejudice [an educated, factual opinion] that casts [accurately portrays] Christians [Evangelicals] as white and privileged homophobic and racist. That may be your experience, but it is not mine [but it IS our experiences, for which we can provide countless anecdotes and illustrations]. Our congregation, in fact, is mixed [what’s the ratio of whites to blacks, not counting the pastor and his family?] racially [so I can’t be racist]. Our pastor is black [see, I know black people] and from New Orleans [so I can’t be racist]. My friend who I am currently involved in trying to rescue from homelessness is gay [so I can’t be homophobic].
Scores of Christians regularly read my writing, yet they view my work very differently from you. I wonder why that is?
I have no idea if you are racist or homophobic — though given enough time, you will make yourself known.. I can tell you, however, that you are part of a sect that is known for its racism and homophobia. It comes as no surprise that Evangelicalism is one of the most hated sects in America.
Bruce: “It comes as no surprise that Evangelicalism is one of the most hated sects in America.”
Don: If we are hated for following Jesus and attempting to live our lives according to his teaching and values, that hatred comes as no surprise. Jesus was hated for those reasons as well.
That is not to say that some Evangelicals and Fundamentalists do not hold convictions that are both abrasive and out of conformity with Jesus. In those cases, I will join you in your criticisms. (I am particularly disturbed with the Christian nationalist heresy.)
You live in the Bible Belt where Fundamentalism is dominate. I have no doubt that you run into a lot of it. I do not live in the Bible Belt. I live in the relatively unchurched Pacific Northwest. In the whole spectrum of Christianity here in the PNW Fundamentalism is a small part.
I also am a member of the Christian and Missionary Alliance. We have many more churches and members in Asia and Africa than in the USA. I think that has made us a more than average racially mixed church community.
The ratio of Black and White? About the same ia the community around us.
I would invite you to visit, but there are also mountains. Those may make people from the flatlands of Ohio uncomfortable. We wouldn’t want that.
I have concluded you are either being deceptive, dishonest, or you are delusional. The Christian Missionary Alliance sect is Fundamentalist, as you are. AW Tozer, an influential member of the CM&A, was a rabid Fundamentalist; which is not surprising since he was an Evangelical. Evangelicalism is inherently Fundamentalist (theologically and socially).
I previously asked you: what’s the ratio of whites to blacks, not counting the pastor and his family?
Instead of answering this question, you gave a generic answer. Try again.
I do not live in the Bible Belt. I have also lived in California, Michigan, Texas, and Arizona.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Belt “The region [Bible Belt]contrasts with the religiously diverse Midwest and Great Lakes.” I live in the upper Midwest.
Maybe you should define what evangelical is to you.
Tozer is an author I have read at some depth. I would certainly call him an evangelical. But I would have difficulty describing him as Fundamentalist.
It is easier to define Fundamentalist. That is one who takes the Bible very literally and distinguishes himself from liberalism and modern scientific theories that seem to him to disagree with a literal interpretation of the scriptures.
A Fundamentalist holds to the historic doctrine of soteriology, but evangelicals do as well.
Beyond that, you tell me what defines Fundamentalism for you.
The percentage of colored to white in Tacoma is 40%. That includes Hispanic, Asian, and African and American Indian. Though I have not counted by ethnic origins people who attend our church, I think it would be close to that. We have individuals of all those ethnicities. But why is this important to you?
My experience with Christians in the Mid-West is that they are predominately Fundamentalist. And that makes it Bible Belt as far as I am concerned. Texas would fit that description as well. California, not so much.
As far as my own views theologically, I am historically Christian as far as soteriology and theology proper is concerned. I am not a legalist. I am inclined toward the views of the BioLogos.org when it comes to interpreting the origins of the earth and man. (That places me outside Fundamentalism, but not Evangelicalism.)
But you really are interested in something other than that. I think you are interested in the involvement of Christians in society. On that subject, I believe that society or culture cannot be made Christian nor Non-Christians be forced to look like Christians. “Christian” is life ordered by the Holy Spirit and the scriptures, not by civil law nor cultural norms. What Christians should be doing is calling people out of the culture to following Jesus personally. And that life begins when one recognizes how his sin has separated him from God (and messed up his life) and places his trust in the mercy and grace of God in forgiving all who come to him through the Lord Jesus. (BTW that is the one and only means of salvation. I add that because you seem unable or unwilling to articulate that one condition.)
I believe that the two commandments of loving God with all we are and our neighbors as ourselves are the best expression of God’s desire for those who are believers following Jesus.
To that end, the Christian and Missionary Alliance is as good as any denomination I have experienced in pursuing that ideal.
Evangelicals are inherently Fundamentalist. Note that I capitalize the word “Fundamentalist.”
I answer this question here:
https://brucegerencser.net/2020/04/evangelicals-fundamentalists/
This is not a matter of opinion—just facts.
You are quickly wearing out your welcome. You seem deliberately obtuse, rarely answering direct questions or challenges. I directly showed you that Ohio and the Midwest are NOT in the Bible Belt, yet you come back with an appeal to personal opinion or subjective experience.
As far as salvation is concerned, there are numerous plans of salvation. I’ve written numerous posts on this subject. Search is your friend.
I hear Neil snickering, saying, “I told you.😂😂
Don: ” What Christians should be doing is calling people out of the culture to following Jesus personally. And that life begins when one recognizes how his sin has separated him from God (and messed up his life) and places his trust in the mercy and grace of God in forgiving all who come to him through the Lord Jesus.”
Zoe: Fundamentalist, Evangelical, Literal and Legalistic.
Don, you said, “If we (evangelicals) are hated for following Jesus and attempting to live our lives according to his teaching and values, that hatred comes as no surprise. Jesus was hated for those reasons as well.”
WRONG. Jesus was hated because he threatened the job security of the established religious rulers.
If evangelicals are hated, it’s not because they are doing as Jesus did. It’s because they are doing as the religious leaders of his time did. If Jesus were here today, there’s one thing wouldn’t be: an fundamental, evangelical Christian.
Don said: I don’t believe that homosexuality is a sin. What is a sin is living outside God’s design for live.”
Stop with the dodge. Will your LGBTQ friend go to Heaven when he dies if he continues to engage in non-heterosexual sex? Do you support his right to marry? Can he be a member of the church you attend and still self-identify as gay? (You do know calling LGBTQ people “homosexuals” is generally considered derogatory, right?) Teach Sunday school or serve on the worship team? Of course not. You nor your church accept people as they are. The goal is save them and change them. Why? Because, as every Evangelical will tell you, there will be no LGBTQ in Heaven (let’s assume having sex is normative, so your dodge is little more than an attempt to obfuscate the issue and avoid being labeled homophobic.)
Bruce: “Will your LGBTQ friend go to Heaven when he dies if he continues to engage in non-heterosexual sex?”
Don: Didn’t you say you were a pastor? If so, what is the one and only condition of salvation? You should know.
Clue it is not heterosexuality. I*t is not even a celibate life. It is not total sinlessness from that moment of salvation on. SO WHAT IS IT?
Bruce: “You do know calling LGBTQ people “homosexuals” is generally considered derogatory, right?”
Don: I confess I do not keep up with the changing landscape regarding “LGBTQ”. (Aren’t there yet more letters now?) I do not mean “homosexual” to be derogatory.
Bruce: “Do you support his right to marry? ”
Don: The right to marry is a right given by the state. So, if the state determines that I meet THEIR conditions, I have no objection.
Bruce: “Teach Sunday school or serve on the worship team? ”
Don: Since it is not the fact of a person being homosexual but the practice of it that is the issue, I would say that my concern would be the same as allowing a practicing adulterer (Remember the guy in 1st Corinthians?) to teach Sunday school. Or a husband who regularly was beating his wife. Or a guy was found to be sexually abusing his children. These cases reach the point of ignoring all morality and endorsing that by allowing him to teach is to condone the sin.
My “dodge” as you say if simply as biblical as I can determine the standards to be.
BTW as a pastor I did not allow a couple who were living together while the guy was married to another women (in the same small town) to sit together in church. To his credit the guy asked me. I did not allow a deacon to continue in that office who was seriously mistreating his children. I did not allow a guy who was found guilty of sexually abusing children in the church to continue in the church.
Everyone, with the exception of someone who is a danger, is welcome to attend services, but some of those offices expect those who hold them to live by the clear commands given in the Bible.
BTW I am an evangelical, and I would never say that there will be no LGBTQ in heaven.
As far as I am concerned, the issue is whether one is walking with the Lord and enjoying his blessing or not walking with the Lord and missing the blessing. I have no right to declare a person saved or unsaved. That is between them and the Lord.
Sigh 😢
So it is certain sex acts that keep people from Heaven. Adultery (the act of having sex with someone not your wife) precludes someone from going to Heaven. The Bible says no adulterer (or liar) will inherit the kingdom of God. So, entrance to Heaven is determined by who we fuck.
And there it is…the old “ you can be gay just not in a relationship or having sex” rule of the “open to all” Christian church.
Earlier you said people here are biased against Christians. Speaking for myself, it’s not that I am biased, it’s that I don’t trust Christians. For my own self protection, when someone tells me they are Christian, the walls go up automatically because I know at some point their hatefulness will show.
I will be accused of being a groomer or a pedophile or indoctrinating children. I will be called a pervert or deviant or an abomination. Someone will pull out verses to show just how evil and deserving of death I am. Others will insist on misgendering, you know, to speak the truth. Some say I should be in jail. Some even call for my death by shooting or hanging or whatever form they like.
All, of course, do this out of love. But at least they are open about their love of hate and bigotry.
As bad as those people are, some christians are more subtle and much worse. They won’t say those blatantly bigoted things. They claim I am welcome in church and they love me and people of all types are allowed in their church. Race, gender, sexual orientation or anything do not matter.
But that only goes so far, because at some point you get to “ Since it is not the fact of a person being homosexual but the practice of it that is the issue, I would say that my concern would be the same as allowing a practicing adulterer (Remember the guy in 1st Corinthians?) to teach Sunday school. Or a husband who regularly was beating his wife. Or a guy was found to be sexually abusing his children.”
First, you compare being gay as equal to abusing a spouse or assaulting children. Typical of those who pretend to care for gay people, but really, when it comes down to it, see them as awful people.
Second, acceptance is obviously conditional. In my case, such churches insist I quit pretending and just live as the gender the church prescribes for me. Some even offer programs to browbeat me into accepting that I am a bad person who needs to be fixed. Oh yes, they love me and I can attend, but only if I change to suit them and make sure to use the proper restroom.
I suffered the horrid indoctrination of a preachers kid which led to years of self hatred and god induced abuse that was endorsed by the churchs I attended and Christian moral values. These are the exact same values you just expressed in your post.
So yes, when I encounter a Christian, I expect the worst, because that is usually the result. And you are no exception.
You will find the bias you seek when you truly look in the mirror. What you read here, and see as prejudice against Christians, is just people standing up to up to you, demanding equality, and insisting you end your bigotry toward those who don’t do Christian, or life, in the way you deem as proper.
Lotsa fancy footwork going on there.
Don, you said, “life begins when one recognizes how his sin has separated him from God (and messed up his life) and places his trust in the mercy and grace of God in forgiving all who come to him through the Lord Jesus. (BTW that is the one and only means of salvation.” You base this entirely on the Bible. Can you possibly see past the Bible and use logic?
A child is born, and for the rest of their life, hears basically two comments from evangelicals:
(1)”Welcome to this world.”
(2) “You’re in big trouble and if you don’t choose the right religion, you’ll burn forever.”
How much sense does that make? Answer: It makes ZERO sense.
George: “You’re in big trouble and if you don’t choose the right religion, you’ll burn forever.”
Don: that is the mistaken idea that keeps getting repeated and repeated.
Religion has never and will never provide life. It does not matter which one it is. What matters is whether one is willing to listen to God and recognize his separation from God and respond in faith and trust to God’s invitation to return and receive reconciliation.
That was the message of Judaism when it was not corrupted by “religion.” It is the message of Christianity when it is not corrupted by “religion.” It is also something that those wholly apart from these religions may understand and respond to. And I believe many who have never heard of Judaism or Christianity have responded to in faith and trust.
What keeps one out of “heaven” and prevents one’s enjoyment of all the blessings God gives – including most of all himself – is an unwillingness to turn to his mercy. He waits for you, George. His offer is open.
Don: ” It is also something that those wholly apart from these religions may understand and respond to. And I believe many who have never heard of Judaism or Christianity have responded to in faith and trust.”
Zoe: I wonder how many in the flood responded in faith and trust?
Semantic point, Don. It could’ve just as easily been, “You’re in big trouble and if you don’t choose the right FAITH, you’ll burn forever.”
That tired old “Christianity-isn’t-a-religion-but-it’s-a-relationship” is the mistaken idea that’s getting repeated and repeated. If there’s a hell, it’s reserved for evangelists whose job it is to scare the crap out of people for money. The Bible calls them paid hirelings.
By the way, He waits for me with open arms, saying, “Well done, son. You didn’t partake of the leaven of the Pharisees.”
Don, keep showing your bull headed, self righteous, holier than thou, attitude that makes you a judgmental prick when you say foolish things like “ He waits for you, George. His offer is open.” who the hell are you to judge anyone? Do you even know anything about what he does or doesn’t believe?
What is even the point? Clearly everyone responding to you here is saying they do not agree with your narrow minded, only my way, viewpoint. They point out why and you completely ignore what they say.
This is one of the major problems with Christians like you. You don’t listen, you look down on people, judge, and then try to guilt people into your broken belief system.
You seek out vulnerable people and abuse them with your evil words that are made to sound so nice. Then you abuse them even more by telling them the person they are is evil and doomed and only your religious brand can save them. And they better hurry because judgement may come soon.
And before you say i hate Christians, I know many Christians who do not act like you and are ok with people like me existing along side them. It is you who are the problem.
Take your abusive religious view and judgment elsewhere. Preferably back to the pews where you can sit and judge with others just like you.
Sage—First of all, thank you. You have more emotional energy than I have to fight Christian double-speak.
Don—I teach young (mostly ca.18-24 y.o.) people. I have also taught high school and co-facilitated an LGBT youth group. I have also helped unhoused and addicted people. I have also been in rehab, and am in recovery. (The latter is a lifelong process.)
One thing I would never, ever say about drug users is that they’re “stupid.” In fact, my first NA sponsor remarked that when he started to attend meetings, he was struck by the intelligence and, in many cases, the education of people he met.
Young people try marijuana or other intoxicants because they’re dared or alienated. Most adults—including yours truly—try drugs because they’re stressed in some way. Some just want to relax. Others—like me, when I was using—are/were in some sort of chronic pain, whether physical or psychological. In that category I include every LGBTQ person I’ve known who uses/used. In fact, when I “came out” to my mother, one of her first questions was, “So that’s why you were using drugs and drinking too much?”
And, to return “Sage”’s comments: Every Christian individual or institution’s “acceptance” of us is conditional. We can exist in their spaces as long as we conform to their notions of gender expression and to whom we should express our love. Really, it’s no different than in being in other “accepting “ or “affirming”’spaces: People in them are willing to put up with us as long as we conform to written or unwritten, spoken or unspoken, codes—and accept that, whatever the institution’s policies say, we have fewer rights and protections than everyone else. (In the place where I taught pre-pandemic, I was pushed down stairs by another faculty member. The head of campus security—after giving me a spiel about how he respects everybody—said I had it coming to me because of my “presentation.”’ So I believe you can understand why I never reported the sexual assault I experienced not long afterward.) The people in such spaces congratulate themselves for not behaving with the open hostility I’ve just described and are willing to tolerate people like me as long as they don’t have to interact in any meaningful way.
Oh, and lots of them go to churches where “God loves everyone.”
To sum up, people in situations like mine don’t use drugs because we’re “stupid.” Some of us are lonely; many of us are in pain. And our alienation is only exacerbate by those who say, “You are welcome here, but…”
MJ: “One thing I would never, ever say about drug users is that they’re “stupid.” In fact, my first NA sponsor remarked that when he started to attend meetings, he was struck by the intelligence and, in many cases, the education of people he met.”
I don’t mean their intelligence; I mean their sense.
I’ll grant the emotional pain. But really MJ, does it make sense that drugs will make your life better? Drugs may mask the pain, but the cost is very high.
I’ll also grant that LGBTQ are often held at arms length or worse. My wife and I – both of us have friends and have worked with LGBTQ people – have had to defend the personhood of our friends against the prejudice of some. At the same time, I have seen in many of our LGBTQ friends the sef-destructiveness of the gay lifestyle, in particular two guys who were nurses and worked with my wife. This was in the era of the gay bathhouses, and they, as smart as they were, did not get it that that behavior was dangerous. Both died of AIDS.
In the 80s it was HIV. It still is to some degree. But there are other hazards. My friend J takes drugs to prevent HIV as he is recovering from syphilis. Though not taking street drugs now, he has and has been deeply into the gay scene and drug culture that likely killed his fiancée in a fentanyl overdose.
There is a solution to all that and to the destruction it causes. It is what Jesus recommended.: live a celibate live. Others do for other reasons. It is not a horror, and it provides the peace that the drug and gay culture does not.
Ok Don. I have been patient, but that is done.
What the fuck is wrong with you? People point out how your words and your religion cause serious problems, and you answer is alway “yeah…but…” and you try to to distance yourself.
I don’t give a fuck what you so graciously “grant” to drug users or LGBTQIA+ people or anyone else you deign to give your half assed support too. The point remains the same, you are jumping in to “save” those poor, ignorant, foolish people who you judge to be broken, damaged, lost or whatever your putrid religion demand.
What is this bullshit “ I don’t mean their intelligence; I mean their sense.”??? So no matter how you twist the words and play word games to avoid reality, the reality is you called them stupid again. What part of this are you not getting?
And oh how,I love, just love, the way you tied the “gay lifestyle” to not being smart enough to avoid HIV. And you watched this happen to “friends” …and no doubt the whole judged them… because you obviously judge them now.
And the fact that you say this just shows how incomprehensibly, completely, fucking ignorant you are about anything to do with gay people. I lived that era, and it was assholes like you that were preaching about the “gay disease” and how their sin was killing them, but they were blinded by some evil entity.
So i will just say it clearly… fuck you and your superiority complex.
I lived that time. Everyone in the gay community was very, personally, fearfully aware of HIV. Everyone knew people who had been lost to that horrid disease. Everyone knew people who were suffering. For you to say they didn’t “get it” shows just how little you know about these people you claim as friends.
Jesus Christ, Don, that disease devastated the LGBTQIA+ world. And no one looking on gave a fuck. Politicians didn’t give a fuck. Christians didn’t give a fuck. No one had any concern about gay people dying. The pain and loss of that disease still lingers today, and fucktards like you, spewing shit like this, just bring it back right in front of us. We lost a lot of important people while you stood by praying and judging and watching your so called friends suffer and die.
It needs to be said again – fuck you and fuck your religion
When I read your words, I hear in the background you saying “they reap what they sow.” Oh, yeah, I know, you don’t mean things that way, it’s just they could do better, it’s just their “sense” that is messed up, right?. Well fuck you again.
You should never dare talk about HIV and it’s impact on the world, because you know nothing. Your words here show you to be an ignorant jackass. Just stop.
You do not have the answers to everything. I can assure you that your fucked up religious belief is not the answer. Your suggestion to “be celibate” is ignorance in the extreme. It shows you clearly believe that being gay is evil, but you know gay people are not choosing to be gay. Soooo, to square reality with your fairy tale god and your fucked up religious book, you say it’s ok to be gay, just be celibate.
Because it’s all about sex. That’s all gay really is, right? Just suppress it, hide it, and man up and all will be ok. Your god will then think you deserve it’s attention. These are talking points right out of conversion therapy, which is a heinous and deadly practice.
Well…fuck your and fuck your particular god.
You like to separate yourself from trump supporters, but you are far worse. You pretend to care, maybe even think you care, but your care is literally death for the LGBTQIA+ community. Your god and your beliefs are the cause of most of our problems and are the reason this community is always facing discrimination and hatred. It is because of caring people like you – who do nothing to actually fix problems, but instead seek to fix us – that our government is trying to eradicate us. If you really want to help, lift up your LGBTQIA+ friends as people who deserve equality, respect, and freedom to live however they desire, regardless of your personal belief. But my guess is you won’t. Because..you know…god.
You want to know the real solution for peace for gay people and associates communities? It is for you and your ilk – including the trump asshats, and others like you that exist in the periphery of trumpism – to shut the fuck up and leave all of us alone. Go into your pretty country club clique that you call church, and believe whatever you want and judge whomever your desire. And stop fucking us over. Just stop.
You are nothing more than a judgmental prick.
Hyperbolic, inflammatory, tone deaf comment deleted
doncamp: “There is a solution to all that and to the destruction it causes. It is what Jesus recommended.: live a celibate live.”
One dimenstional. Only Jesus. Proof that Jesus said to live a celibate life?
DonCamp: “These cases reach the point of ignoring all morality and endorsing that by allowing him to teach is to condone the sin.”
Zoe: What is their sin? Aren’t all sinners saved? Aren’t all saved, sinners? Where in the daily/nightly sojourn of life and practice is one pure and free of their fallen humanity? The adulterer is known. The abuser is known. Where is the sinner that is hidden with their sin? The one that is teaching Sunday school that no one knows about. The preacher in the pulpit that justifies his unclean thoughts because his wife is not obedient. Is there a moment in time where you are ever sinless and therefore qualified to lead?
No there is not a moment in time when we are sinless. But that is not Paul’s point nor is it mine. Condoning and enabling that sin is the point – and giving the impression that sin, even as egregious as that of the man in 1st Corinthians, is okay is the point.
Don, the church is full of condoning sin, both in the corporate church and the body of Christ. You know that. Paul’s point is meaningless. It’s his point. And it is left to interpretation by every church that calls itself Christian.
Comment deleted.
No more preaching, sermonizing, ‘splaining cuz we is uh too stupid to understand, or evangelizing. We have heard spiels like yours countless times. You are pissing into a hurricane—a waste of time.
Unlike some other blogs, Evangelicals are not given free rein on this site. If you have not done so, please read the comment guidelines and the Dear Evangelical post.
Don, You said pissing. You’re going to hell.
🤣🤣🤣
Don—Fundamentalists are not hated for “following the teachings of Jesus”—unless those teachings include bullying. The reason why people, especially the young, want nothing to do with Fundamentalists is that it’s their way or the highway (to Hell). They are trying to turn this secular republic into a Christian Caliphate—all the while ignoring not only the non-religious, but also the Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and people who practice their belief in Christ in un-approved ways.
If anything, I’d say that Fundamentalists have the same persecution complex MAGA folk evince when they complain that being called out for their hate is an attempt to take away their right to freedom of speech. (During the pandemic, many of them also thought a mask is a gag.) I am not a believer, but I find it appalling when Fundamentalists liken the disapproval they experience with the trials of Christ who, if he actually existed, did some great things.
Of course, Don doesn’t think he’s a Fundamentalist.
MJ: “They [Fundamentalists] are trying to turn this secular republic into a Christian Caliphate”
Don: I’ll agree with that. That kind of “triumphalism” or Christian nationalism is a serious threat to Christianity. It didn’t work in the Middle Ages and it won’t work now. It doesn’t result in the advance of the gospel, and it far too often resorts to the authority of force of the state. Ironically, it is more like ancient Pharisaism than Christianity.
Don—I am trans. But I know, and have known, lots of gay people. And I co-facilitated an LGBTQ youth group. Therefore, I can speak with some authority about the “gay lifestyle.” Here goes:
In the “gay lifestyle:”
—Kids stop going to school because other kids bully them—and parents, teachers, principals and other adults look the other way or encourage the bullying.
—Kids get kicked out of their homes and end up on the street because they have no credentials or marketable skills.
—They take menial jobs, do sex work or sell drugs because
—even if they’ve finished school , they can’t get a legal job or housing.
—Oh, and they meet lots of “loving” people who “love” them just like their God loves them, as long as they don’t love the way that God made them to love.
No, the “gay lifestyle “ isn’t two high-earning people of the same sex sashaying out of canopied co-ops toting Kors bags and wearing their favorite designer’s latest clothes. At least, that’s not how most gay people live.
And people live the “gay lifestyle “ because of parents, families, classmates, teachers and members of their families’ churches who tell them they’re broken but Jesus can fix them. Believe me, many, if not most, believed more assiduously, prayed harder and worked more earnestly than their “good Christian “ parents, pastors and peers. Some in my old group even continued to attend churches like the ones that shunned them.
I guess that they haven’t believed, prayed or lived long enough. Is that why they need to believe in the promise of eternal life?
Don—I am transgender. I also know many gay people and have co-facilitated an LGBTQ youth group. Therefore, I feel qualified to talk about the “gay lifestyle.”
It does indeed comprise two high-earning people of the same gender clad in Christian (Dior or LaCroix) sashaying out of their canopied Chelsea or Mission co-ops. At least, that’s how it is for,
oh, about .01 percent.
For others, the “gay lifestyle “ includes
—bullying from peers. Parents, teachers and other adults who look the other way,
punish the kid who’s bullied or egg the bullies on
—Quitting school because of the bullying.
—Getting kicked out of your home and shunned by your family—who goes to church twice a week
—Living on the streets because you have nowhere else to go
—Doing sex work, selling drugs or hustling in some other way because you have no credentials or marketable skills
—Being told “you don’t have to live that way” by people who insist they love you as their God loves you—as long as you don’t love the way their God made you to love.
—Oh, and if you do manage to avoid all of that , the “gay lifestyle “ includes micro- and sometimes macro-aggressions in schools, workplaces and in other venues—and being denied a job (as a less-qualified applicant is hired) because “we feel you wouldn’t be a good fit with the culture of this organization.”
Believing in Jesus—and trust me, many in the “gay lifestyle “ do—doesn’t change any of that.
Don- from my experience substance dependency has many complex layers. When I was alot younger and a lot more conservative, I used to judge those who suffered from alcoholism, drug addiction, etc. I worked in criminal justice for many years. I knew people who used marihuana and lived productive and happy lives for the most part. I also met people who just simply would not stop drinking alcohol knowing it was literally killing them (destroying their liver due to prolonged heavy drinking) and destroying their lives.
Whenever I would question the hypocrisy of the “drug war” vs. alcohol, the response usually was, “you can use alcohol in moderation”. Well, I believe that marijuana can be used to treat nausea, possibly PTSD and chronic pain. Or maybe we should just continue to trust “big Pharma” to treat these conditions with costly “legal” pills that cause dependency and yield decreasing returns over time.
The same foundation of our nation that not only gives you freedom of religious “belief” (which exists nominally in the constitution of most communist countries) but also of practice also established a balance between states and the federal government. People in Ohio voted for legalized marijuana. Not too long ago Republicans theoretically believed in the right of people in the states to vote themselves freedom from oppressive federal government laws. I believe in that as well. It’s not a matter of what stupid people do or don’t do. Alcohol was illegal for awhile too, and the arguments you make are similar to those made by prohibitionists. I watched a PBS documentary on prohibition awhile back. The first hour or so explained how prevalent alcoholism was in late 19th and early 20th century especially among young people. Listening to this and seeing the photos, I then began to understand why people thought prohibition was a good idea. There was also the belief that beer and wine would be exempt as these were common beverages. Nope. Volstead would not hear of it. And thus the great experiment caused an explosion of crime, and people still drank. Except now people started dying- because the federal government sought to poison industrial alcohol- yep, that will stop it! Make people afraid. Always works.
So my view is that good people don’t try to impose their views on others, at least here in the USA. I feel this way across the board, by the way. I like chicken sandwiches. A hardcore vegan shouldn’t have to eat them, but should not be able prevent me from eating them either.
I’m not going to comment much on the gay/LGBTQ arguments. While I will give you the benefit of the doubt on your sincerity, I would caution you about the appearance of “straight saviorism” for lack of a better phrase. Feeling the need to mention “I help gay people with Jesus” does not elicit the positive vibes you think it will. It’s complicated for me as a Catholic- I know the cruel and horrible history of my church. My belief is personal. People know I’m Catholic (crucifix on the wall, etc) but I do not wear it on my sleeve. If someone needs help, I help. If I perceive my presence is unwelcome, I back off. I see others no matter who they are as no better or no worse than myself. I am on the sensitive introverted side, so what gets me very upset are bullies. I don’t care who the bully is, where they fall on the political or religious spectrum (and yes I’m sure there are bullies on the far left, too). I don’t like them- not because of their ideology but because of the behavior.
I struggle myself with an addiction. I ride the roller coaster of sobriety, temptation, baby step relapse and full relapse. Then guilt, utter despair, feelings of worthlessness and recovery. It was when I myself ended up in this cycle that my conservative judgmental attitudes came to an end.
To everyone- Happy New Year!