Yesterday, I received an email from an Evangelical woman who lives in South Africa. My response follows. (All grammar, spelling, and punctuation in the original.)
It is with much sadness that I read your blog. I can hear the hurt and disillusionment in every word, the pain of your youth and your mothers’ mental health struggles with little support from those who loved her and the church members.
Why should you feel sad reading my writing? I get that you might disagree with the path I’ve chosen in life, but there’s no reason for sadness on your part. You don’t know me, so I can’t imagine you feeling sorry for me.
I have written almost five thousand posts for this site. How many of them did you actually read? How many posts on the Why? page did you read? If all you read is a few autobiographical posts about my upbringing and my mother, I can see why you might feel “sad.” However, the vast majority of my writing should not cause people to feel sorry for me. I am a happily married man. We are blessed to have six grown children, three daughters-in-law, and sixteen grandchildren. Two of our grandchildren are currently in college at Ohio State University (pre-med) and Miami University (zoology), respectively. We own our home, drive a late model automobile, and have four cats. In every way, I am blessed. Yes, I have a lot of serious health problems. Yes, I am depressed over Trump’s attempt to destroy our republic. But these things aside, I have a good life. No need to feel sorry for me.
I suppose if you only judge people — and you ARE judging me, despite what protests you might raise — based on your theology, there’s reason to feel sorry for me. After all, I’m headed for Hell, right?
This life sure is interesting how we all have such different experiences. To be an evangelical pastor for 25 years and a Christian for so long and to have such a 180-degree turn of belief is truly fascinating.
While a pastor deconverting at my age with the experience I have is rare, people walking away from Christianity is quite common (and increasing by the day).
My story is the reverse. I rejected God for very much the same reasons as you did for over 20 years, I also carry much hurt and trauma from my past and after my wonderfully talented cousin got diagnosed with schizophrenia and went on a rampage and brutally murdered and raped a woman that was it for me and God and I set out and lived my life.
Yet over 20 years later on a normal Thursday morning, while watering my garden, the presence of God descended on my garden in the arse end of Africa with wars raging in Ukraine.
It was the first supernatural encounter of my life. After over 17 years of intense Buddhist meditation, nothing could ever compare to this moment. In my spirit, I could hear the word “Child” being called. The atmosphere grew heavy and thick, and as those words resonated, it felt as if every grain of sand, every leaf, and every cell in my body was filled with the presence of the Lord. I was overwhelmed with a love so profound that I never knew existed, yet it felt like home. I could not stand; I had to drop to my knees and begin to weep. How could I have ignored this reality for so long? This world is not what it appears to be. It’s not just a sequence of events; it’s a carefully woven, deeply spiritual, divinely orchestrated journey.
What you provide here is an anecdotal story. Such stories are fine for testimony night at your church, but you can’t expect it to convince an Evangelical-preacher-turned-atheist like me. I am not a Christian because I no longer believe the central claims of Christianity are true. Unless you can empirically show me that I am wrong, I see no reason to return to Christianity.
I did not even own a Bible but at that moment I understood what was meant when God says He is the Alpha and Omega, that there is only one Living God. I was shown Jesus on the cross and the importance of the blood. I could understand the meaning of free will, that God is not a psycopath that controls everything, but in order to fully love he has to allow everything so that each thing can be.
Your email reflects exposure to Christianity before your experience, so you certainly were not a clean slate for God to write his story upon. The Bible is a book of claims, not evidence. Again, what empirical evidence do you have for your aforementioned claims?
If you want to have a discussion/debate about your claims, I am game. Just in the one paragraph above, there are several claims you make that I can easily refute from a Biblical/theological perspective (i.e. that there is only one God, that God is not sovereign, that humans have free will, that God is not omniscient, that God doesn’t have free will).
After this life changing encounter I went out and bought a Bible and not long after, I ran into the same challenges that I had before with Christianity, but I could not deny what happened and the glory of God. I asked God to help understand these issues and over time God revealed this to me.
How do you KNOW God revealed anything to you? People tell me God told them all sorts of things, yet they can provide no evidence to prove their claims.
I could understand why much of these things are sin.
What things, exactly? Personally, I don’t believe in “sin.” Sin is a religious construct used by clerics to invoke fear of God’s judgment. This keeps asses in pews and money in offering plates. People do good and bad things. When we do bad things, we need to own our behavior and, if necessary, make restitution. No need for God, judgment, condemnation, or Hell. Just do better the next time.
I also learned about spiritual warfare and how so many of us do not acknowledge the attacks of the enemy.
What enemy? Satan is a mythical being too. I have no worries about being attacked by the Devil. Attacked by humans? You bet. I have been repeatedly attacked by Evangelical Christians more times than I can count; people who show me no regard or respect.
I also learned about the power of suffering. Not from the human eye or man’s perspective. I learned that suffering in the world is far different than suffering which is God ordained. Suffering of the world is only to harm, where suffering of God is to refine us, to make us stronger, for this life, for its battles that we will inevitably incur as life is hard. There is no way around it.
You seemed to miss what suffering really teaches us; namely that there is no God, and if there is, he cares nothing for us, content to allow horrific suffering that he could stop in a blink of an eye. Let me give you a quote attributed to Epicurius:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
In a world without God, suffering is expected. Shit happens. However, in a world with a personal God who allegedly loves and cares for people, suffering is a blaring advertisement for the fact that said God either doesn’t exist, doesn’t care, or is on a millennia-long vacation.
Richard Dawkins had this to say about the Christian God:
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
As I was deeply hurt by church as well, I couldnt hand my soul in a man’s words again and I asked God to help me. Its not that I dont want to be part of the body of Christ, its that I want to seek God and only God. I want the truth.
While Christians have done hurtful things to me over the years, they played little to no part in my deconversion. If you read the posts on the Why? page, you will find out that I left Christianity primarily for intellectual reasons. Most of the hurt from Christians came after I deconverted. Over the past seventeen years, I have received countless hateful, nasty, vulgar, mean-spirited, judgmental emails, social media messages, and blog comments from Evangelical Christians — some of whom have known me for decades. These emails, messages, and comments are a poignant reminder of the ugly underbelly of Evangelical Christianity.
The only way to get to that Truth is to build a personal relationship with the Trinity. To be led by the Holy Spirit, to learn from the life of Jesus who also suffered as an innocent, like so many today. This did not come easy as I had many questions and had many fights with God but it was never in rebellion to God. That ultimately this journey led me to surrender my life and to grow real faith in uncertainty, to let go of the world and its views and step into a new life with a new heart, new ears, new eyes, restored. To truly sacrifice my ego, my will and my dreams. From the outside it looks like one lets go of your freedom and identity, but in actual fact you gain so much more. Because our minds are limited and God takes us to the unlimited. He gives true peace, He empowers us to bring peace and healing to those we encounter on our journey. What I was, is nothing compared to who I am now and what I am able to do through Christ Jesus.
Again, you make lots of claims. You are free to believe what you want. However, you can’t expect me to return to Christianity based on an anecdotal story. If Christianity works for you, fine. However, I see nothing in your testimony that I haven’t heard countless times. Did you really think that your story would lead me to repent and embrace faith in Christ, given that I am a man who was a Christian for fifty years and a pastor for twenty-five years?
So my message to you is that God still loves you, He wants you back, nothing can seperate you from the love of Christ, do not be fooled by the enemy who operates greatly in churches.
You can’t possibly know if God loves me. You can’t know if God wants me back. Your statements directly contradict the teachings of the Bible. How do you KNOW Satan operates greatly in churches? How do you know it’s not your beliefs that are false? Maybe you are deceived by Satan, and your email to me is her attempt to lead me astray. Besides, even if there is a Devil, who created her? Isn’t God ultimately culpable for the works of Satan? If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, why did he create Satan?
I pray that you are touched by the love of Christ once again, that His peace blows through your soul, His mercy restore you and that you must know that none of it was in vain. You matter greatly to God.
Sigh. Stop with the syrupy love bombing and cheap cliches. I don’t matter to God for one simple reason: he doesn’t exist. And even if he does exist, it’s clear that outside of helping Nana find her car keys or helping Sister Bertha get a good parking place at Costco, God doesn’t give a shit about people. I see nothing in my life that says I “matter greatly to God.”
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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Eh, everyone has their own experiences in life. Hearing someone talk about being overcome with emotions because they felt like a deity was reaching out to them makes me want to say, “That’s nice. I’m glad you felt good.” But that isn’t evidence that a deity exists. We humans experience emotions for a lot of reasons. I personally just want to be respected for having my own journey, just as I’ll respect yours.
Interestingly, Muhammad reported a very similar experience in the cave of Hera. Buddha reported something similar as well the moment he achieved enlightenment under the Bodhi tree (an invisible voice urged him to teach the Noble Eight Fold Path to others). Does that make Islam or Buddhism the one true path?
I’ve had my own personal experiences ironically while engaged in Zen Buddhist meditation (like the reader claimed to be practicing). I took these experiences, which ultimately led me to Catholicism, for what they were- an emotional intuitive experience that was part of my own personal journey. This journey is still ongoing.
Just as OC said, we all have our own paths we are walking. We have to walk them by ourselves in an honest and fearless way. And we should definitely respect the fact that others have their own lives and personal journeys.
I will never judge anyone for anything other than their conduct towards other beings, but even here I will also remember that I am just as capable of being an asshole as the person I am judging. And I will never presume that I am any more enlightened than someone else, especially someone who is older and has done a lot more in their lives than I have.
I hope, Bruce that I am not out of bounds when I comment on your site. If so I apologize. I feel that I get a lot of good insight into my own past while reading your thoughts and the thoughts and experiences of everyone else (other than Revival Liars and Dr Tee).
You’re fine, John. You’ve earned a lot of goodwill with me. ❤️❤️
‘ I could not stand; I had to drop to my knees and begin to weep.’
Where’s the free will? You imply that you were forced to your knees and to weep. Many people experience this kind of trauma without ever attributing it to some kind of god. You yourself describe a harrowing event from some 20 years previous that has clearly preyed heavily on your mind. How do you know it wasn’t your mind creating delusions, which most outsiders will believe is what happened? Even if it was exactly as you described, and God did come visiting, isn’t that unfair on those who don’t have such visitations? God will have known that the experience you had would be of little or no consequence to others who have had no such experience, so wasn’t he being incredibly unfair in selecting you? Does it never occur to you that the experience was not real?
Excellent, Geoff. This thought never crossed my mind. ❤️❤️
That there ‘first supernatural encounter’ she claims, made me laugh. My wise old mum would have said, ‘Too much cheese for supper,’ and my teenager ‘Been at the wacky baccy again I see.’ There are many reasons to hallucinate, I got close to it when very sleep-deprived cos my toddler was ill and barely slept for ten days. John S says mohammad and buddha claimed visions. So did just about every other cult leader in history – Joseph Smith and Charles Russell spring to mind. I suggest every new break-away party from almost all the world’s religions, sects and cults over the centuries has come from a so-called ‘supernatural encounter’ by a person who was within them.
Bruce: “Your email reflects exposure to Christianity before your experience, so you certainly were not a clean slate for God to write his story upon.”
Zoe: My thoughts as well.
Why is that “visions” of deities get a free pass, yet other hallucinations get you a stop in a psychology ward.
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