I recently received an email from a seventy-five-year-old attorney — a former atheist — who wanted me to know exactly what he thought about me and my deconversion from Christianity. Much of the letter was spent on the man telling me how smart he was and how he came to learn that materialistic atheism (his definition) is “the one ism I can say with near-certainty is flat-out false.” What does he believe?
I am content with a belief in a higher intelligence, a genuine meaning and purpose to human existence, and the continuation of consciousness after physical death – all because this is where I believe the best evidence firmly points.
Okay? And he felt the need to share this with me why, exactly? I have been an atheist for seventeen years. In all those years, I have never gone to someone’s blog or social media page unsolicited to attack their religious beliefs or deconstruct their story. I don’t understand the logic behind such behavior other than it makes the person passing judgment feel right or superior. Explain his motivation for saying things to me such as:
No need to respond, because I’m not really interested in you either!
I am somewhat older than you (75), highly educated, and have traveled a not-dissimilar path. However, my landing spot was entirely different and has left me, I hope, less bitter and consumed by anger than you seem to be.
The posts of yours that I have read strike as exemplifying the familiar figure of someone who once bought into beliefs that are patently silly, felt angry and betrayed when the silliness finally became apparent to him, and now harbors deep anger and bitterness beneath a not-very-convincing facade of “atheist liberation.”
I have to wonder to what extent your current position reflects an atheism that is more a knee-jerk embracing of beliefs that are the polar opposite of what you formerly believed (or at least pretended to believe) than a genuine commitment arrived at after a diligent exploration of the best evidence and arguments.
As much as I have enjoyed Bart Ehrman’s work, this was definitely his path as well – “If what I formerly believed isn’t 100% true, none of it is true.” This is a very lazy and short-sighted approach to the big questions.
To summarize, this man thinks:
I am bitter (stated twice)
I am consumed by anger (stated three times)
My deconversion was a knee-jerk reaction to Christianity
I took a lazy and short-sighted approach to the big questions of life
None of these claims is true, as I have made abundantly clear in numerous posts over the years. This means that this man has either not invested much, if any, time in reading what I actually wrote about my journey or he has constructed in his mind a straw man of the Evangelical-turned-atheist Bruce Gerencser. I suspect both are likely true.
This man declared, “All I care about, or have ever cared about, is what is ultimately, ontologically True.” To that I reply, “Not me.” I care about a lot of things of life, but “what is ultimately, ontologically True” doesn’t make my top ten list of important things to care about in life. Sorry, but I am sixty-eight and in poor health. I am on the short side of life. Knowing this, I focus on that which matters the most to me: my partner of forty-seven years, our six adult children and their spouses, our sixteen grandchildren, and, yes, our cats — both the four inside cats, and ten or more outside cats (all of which are either stay or feral animals).
Christianity told me that the Bible had the answers to the big questions of life. I learned that this claim is false; that religion has no better (and sometimes worse) answers to these questions than secular worldviews. People are free to ponder their purpose, meaning, and whether there is life after death, but we are under no obligation to do so. For me personally, life is too short to spend much time pondering what life might be instead of living life every day to its fullest.
My reply to this man was direct:
Why did you write me? Your email is no different from those I receive from Fundamentalist Christians. Your false judgements reveal you haven’t read much of my autobiographical material.
Try harder, friend.
As of the writing of this post, I have not received no response from him.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Recently, a young Evangelical pastor emailed me and asked me two questions:
What made you leave the faith?
Why [would] you would leave a faith that you defended for a long time?
I am frequently asked these or similar questions. Usually, I refer people to the WHY? page for answers to their questions, but there’s something about this pastor — maybe it is his age or proximity to where I live — that interests me, so I thought I would attempt to answer his questions.
I was raised in an Evangelical Christian home. From the time I was a child until I was fifty years old, I attended church every time the doors were open. Saved at the age of fifteen and called to preach two weeks later, I was a devoted follower of Jesus Christ. Imperfect, to be sure, the bent of my life was towards holiness (without which no man shall see God).
At the age of nineteen, I moved to Pontiac, Michigan to enroll in classes at Midwestern Baptist College — an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) institution. While at Midwestern, I met Polly, and two years later we married. Polly and I spent the next thirty years faithfully serving Jesus. Whether between churches or pastoring them, our lives revolved around the ministry (for good or ill). If I counted my entrance into the ministry from the first time I preached to when I deconverted, all told I preached for thirty-three years. (Unlike most of my fellow college students, I regularly preached all through school at a drug rehabilitation center in Detroit.)
After leaving Midwestern, I began a ministerial journey that took me to churches in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. While I entered the ministry as an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist, my path later led to ministry opportunities at Southern Baptist, Christian Union, Sovereign Grace Baptist, and Non-denominational churches. Along the way, we were blessed with six children, including a daughter with Down syndrome.
Fast forward to 2004. I decided that I was done with the ministry. The reasons were many, but not the focus of this post. Suffice it to say, these reasons played an insignificant part in my loss of faith. Polly and I decided that we were at a place in life where we wanted to help a congregation without being its pastor. We spent the next four years visiting churches in Ohio, Arizona, California, Michigan, and Indiana. We cast a wide theological net, but after visiting over one hundred churches, — attending some of them for months — we concluded that the only difference between the churches was the name over their doors. After buying in home here in Ney in 2007, we primarily attended mainline churches — a sign of our increasingly liberal politics.
As my politics and theology evolved, I asked myself what it was I truly believed? What were the non-negotiables of my life? This led to me carefully and comprehensively reexamining my political and theological beliefs — a process that continues to this day. Polly and I spent countless hours talking about our beliefs. I read aloud to Polly passages from books written by men such as Dr. Bart Ehrman. We talked about what it was we really believed about the Bible. These discussions, and my continued investigation of core Christian doctrines, led me to conclude that the central claims of Christianity were false. Teachings that were once dear to me, no longer made sense. (Please see The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.) On the last Sunday in November, 2008, Polly and I attended church for the last time.
These days, I self-identify as an agnostic atheist. Polly is an agnostic, indifferent, and, at times hostile, to organized religion. Our life experiences were very different — even in the ministry — so it should come as no surprise that what motivated our deconversions might be different. Same zip code, to be sure, but different journeys. I am the intellectual of the family. I spent most of my life reading, studying, and preaching the Bible. My experiences are necessarily different from Polly’s, and that’s why our reasons for leaving Christianity vary.
Let me conclude with answering this pastor’s second question: Why [would] you would leave a faith that you defended for a long time?
I am sure this young preacher struggles to understand why I would leave something I dedicated my life to for so many years. Makes sense, right? Most men or women who leave the ministry do so when they are young or youngish. They enter the ministry and find out it is not what it is cracked up to be (and boy, it’s not!) or they had some sort of crisis of faith, and after a few years they decided the pastorate was not for them.
It is rare for men or women to leave the ministry in their 50s. It happens, but not very often. Why are older people hesitant to leave the ministry? Two things come to mind:
Commitment bias, also known as the escalation of commitment, is the tendency to remain loyal to a previous decision, behavior, or course of action, even when it leads to negative outcomes. This often occurs as a result of a desire for consistency with one’s past words and actions, especially when that commitment was made publicly.
Sunk Cost Fallacy, the phenomenon whereby a person is reluctant to abandon a strategy or course of action because they have invested heavily in it, even when it is clear that abandonment would be more beneficial.
I struggled with these things too. I had spent my entire life in the church. I had spent most of my adult life pastoring churches. Polly, a Baptist preacher’s daughter, and I had committed ourselves to the work of the ministry, regardless of financial renumeration. Both of us, at one time or another, worked outside of the church to provide for our family. Not one time did we doubt that this was God’s will for us — until we did. How could we throw everything away? For what? Atheism?
Only those who have walked in our shoes can understand and appreciate our emotional struggles with leaving the ministry and our later deconversion. Many a tear was shed before we walked away. We asked ourselves, Are we sure? What if we are wrong? Do we really want to throw in the towel and walk away? Does this mean we wasted our lives in the ministry? Wouldn’t it be better for us to fake it — it’s not hard — for the sake of family and social connections? What would we do if we weren’t in the ministry?
While the struggles in the dark of night were painful and real, I eventually concluded that I had to be honest: I no longer believed the Bible was the Word of God. I no longer believed the central claims of Christianity. This meant I wasn’t a Christian in any meaningful sense of the word. (Some Baptists think I am just backslidden, and I am still a Christian. This is absurd.) Truth mattered more to me than the ministry and our Evangelical way of life. This was true when I was a Christian, and it is true today. I am open to having my beliefs challenged, albeit I haven’t heard a new or persuasive argument for Christianity (or any other religion) in years. Ecclesiastes says that there is nothing new under the sun, and that is especially true when it comes to Christianity. I am confident that no new evidence will be forthcoming; so much so, that I am, when it comes to the Christian deity, an atheist. To paraphrase the book of Daniel, I have weighed Christianity in the balance and found it wanting.
Do I miss the ministry? You bet. I miss preaching, teaching, and ministering to others, but whatever yearning I may have, it cannot overcome my desire to know and live the truth. While there was certainly an emotional component — how could there not be? — to my deconversion, the primary reasons for my loss of faith were intellectual in nature. I desperately looked for a place to stop on the proverbial slippery slope, but I slid all the way to the bottom, and, in the end, I concluded I was no longer a Christian. And seventeen years later, I remain an unbeliever. Labeled an apostate, reprobate, or follower of Satan, I am routinely pilloried by God’s chosen ones, ever present reminders of Evangelicalism’s ugly underbelly. If I had any doubts about the veracity of Christianity, I no longer do, having experienced seventeen years of character assassination, threats of violence, and attacks on my family.
Please leave any questions you might have or email them to me. I will do my best to answer them.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
All of us should be skeptical of not only the beliefs of others, but our own. Sadly, many of us are only skeptical of beliefs different from ours. Put a Mormon and Evangelical in the same room for a discussion, and both of them will claim that their beliefs are true. Evangelicals quickly point out the “errors” in the Mormon worldview, but when the same skepticism is applied to Evangelical Christianity, they deny that there are any errors or contradictions in the Evangelical worldview. Evangelicals will point out all the crazy things Mormons believe, but when it comes to young earth creationism, Noah’s flood, the tower of Babel, a talking snake and donkey, or a virgin birth — to name a few — Evangelical beliefs make perfect sense, or so they say, anyway. Evangelicals cannot or will not rationally examine their beliefs in light of other religious worldviews. They claim, without evidence, that the Bible is the very words of God, and whatever it says is inerrant and infallible. These claims cannot be rationally sustained.
Just because Mormon beliefs are irrational doesn’t mean Evangelical beliefs are not. Every religion must be judged on its own merits and claims. While I have not investigated every religion known to man, I have carefully examined the Abrahamic religions, and I find them to be intellectually lacking. I haven’t heard a new or original argument for the existence of God or the exclusivity of Christianity in years. In fact, I have concluded that no new arguments will be forthcoming. Either you believe or you don’t. I don’t, and until persuasive evidence is presented to me, I will remain an unbeliever. If that means Hell after I die, so be it. However, I am confident that there is no afterlife, so I have no fear of spending eternity in the Lake of Fire.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Evangelical apologists often say that atheism is a religion; that all of us worship something. Both claims are categorically false, but since when did that ever stop Evangelicals (especially Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis) from lying to advance their agenda?
When you think of a religion, what comes to mind? Denominations, church buildings, holy texts, beliefs, rituals, and clerics, to name a few. None of these things applies to atheism. Atheism is a simple statement about the lack of belief in the existence of deities. Atheists don’t have denominations, texts, rituals, or clerics. There’s no temple we can go to worship the god of atheism. Unlike most religions, atheism has no belief requirements other than a lack of belief in the existence of god.
Google AI answers the question this way:
No, atheism is not a religion; it is the lack of belief in any deities and does not inherently involve a set of tenets, rituals, or a system of worship. While some individuals or groups may label themselves as atheists within a specific philosophical framework or even create non-theistic communities that have some religious-like structures, atheism itself is the absence of a belief that would define a religion.
If atheism is a religion, then abstinence is a sex position. 🙂 Need I say more? If you are an Evangelical who still thinks atheism is a religion, please justify your claim. Preaching and moralizing are not welcome. If you can prove that atheism is a religion, I will change my mind. That said, I am confident, thanks to dealing with countless Evangelicals over the years, that your defense of “atheism is a religion” will not prevail.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Evangelicals often confuse evidence with claims. When pressed on this or that belief, Evangelicals often respond by saying “the Bible says.” However, the Bible is a book of claims, not evidence. When skeptics ask for evidence for a particular assertion, Evangelicals often quote Bible verses, thinking that, in doing so, they have provided evidence for their claims. They have done no such thing.
Here is some of the claims Evangelicals make;
The Bible is the very words of God
The Bible is without error
The Bible is infallible
God is a triune being
Jesus is the eternal Son of God
Jesus was born of a virgin
Jesus worked miracles, including raising the dead and turning water into wine.
Jesus resurrected from the dead
Jesus ascended to Heaven
Christianity is true, and all other religions are false
All of these statements are claims, not evidence. Just because Evangelicals can “prove” their assertions with prooftexts, this is not the same as supporting a claim with evidence. Certainly, the Bible can be used as a historical source when warranted, but what the Bible says alone is not sufficient to justify Evangelical claims. Just because the Bible says Jesus was born of a virgin doesn’t mean he was. The same goes for every claim made with prooftexts. For skeptics, words from a book are not sufficient evidence for supernatural claims. If I said Harry Potter is a real person and he can fly, people would rightly ask me for evidence for my claim. If I said, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban proves Harry is a real person and he can fly, would you believe me? Of course not. So it is with supernatural claims. Unfortunately, many Evangelicals confuse claims with evidence. If Evangelical apologists can’t provide sufficient evidence for their claims, there’s no reason to listen to them.
I am sure some Evangelical commenters will appeal to faith as justification for their claims. That’s fine, but faith will not fly with me and many of the readers of this blog. Faith is the last refuge for believers. It is a safe place where reason, rationality, and evidence are optional. It is the last refuge for believers hiding from the evil philosophies of the world. With faith, anything is possible.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Suppose I woke up tomorrow morning and decided that I wanted to be a Christian. I realize that seems unlikely, but that’s not the point here. And because it isn’t the case that I want to be a Christian, we can set aside the “why” questions. What I’d like us to consider is the far more intriguing “how” questions. How would I become a Christian? Is there a series of steps I could go through that would get me there? If I got there, how would I know I was there? And if I thought I was there, would most Christians accept me as one of them?
What might be a good first step if I wanted to be a Christian?
Jack asks an excellent question, one I hope Christian readers will answer.
There are thousands of Christian sects, each with their own beliefs and plans of salvation. How can an unbeliever possibly know with certainty how to become a Christian? As a pastor, my understanding of Christian salvation changed over the years. As my theology evolved, so did my soteriological beliefs.
If you profess to be a Christian, how does one become a follower of Jesus? If you are a former Christian, what did you believe about salvation? Did your soteriological beliefs change over the years? Please share your experiences in the comment section.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Grace: Hello Bruce, I read your article. You were a pastor for many years, and now you are an atheist. Is that correct?
Bruce: Yes, that’s correct. I was an Evangelical pastor for 25 years. Thanks!
Grace: And now you are an atheist? Is that correct?
Bruce: Yes. I deconverted seventeen years ago.
As you can readily see, I politely and pointedly answered her questions. Yet, Grace’s questions were just a set up for her finishing blow.
Grace: Pastors lead people to hell. So you were on your way to hell then and now.
Luther was as much a heretic as the Catholic church.
The great evangelical disaster leads people to hell.
OSAS is Unscriptural.
“by faith alone” is Unscriptural.
Tithing is not NT Scriptural.
Church buildings are Unscriptural.
But at least you worked Some for a livig [sic].
It’s a shame you led people to hell then and are still on your way there.
But, your choice.
Peace
As you can see, Grace is certain she is right and I am wrong. No discussion required. She knows I’m wrong and headed for Hell; that my entire sixty-eight years of life is a fraud; a lie.
Never mind the fact that Grace doesn’t know anything about me other than an unnamed article she read. To that I say:
It’s stupid and embarrassing to give an answer before you listen. Proverbs 18:13
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Anyone can comment on this site, even Evangelicals and Independent Fundamentalist Baptists. All I ask is that commenters follow the comment policy. Unfortunately, many followers of Jesus either can’t read or they think the comment policy doesn’t apply to them. In their minds, they are servants of Jesus, so whatever he tells them to do or say, they do it, Bruce be damned.
Over the past week, a new Evangelical commenter has been commenting on this blog. She has also sent me numerous emails. Her behavior gave me pause, but I thought I would let her continue to comment. Well, today brought the following comment which I want to respond to:
Ar the risk of being given the “boot” for mentioning prayer on here, I was just so touched, I had to send this. I wasn’t gonna say a blessed thing about prayers going up.for your health condition, 🙏 but was clandestinely putting you on every healing prayer site I could possibly find, in hopes that you would begin to regain some strength, and hope that you aren’t “destined” to continue suffering like this.
Yes, you have indeed crossed a line. I do not appreciate your conduct. Did I ask you to contact people and ask them to pray for me? No. Did I ask you to share my health problems with them? No. Yet, you felt you had the “right” to parade my name and health issues before others. You could have kept this to yourself, but you didn’t. No, you needed me to know that you and your Christian ceiling knockers were praying for me, ignoring what Jesus said about praying in secret.
I can’t stop people from praying for me. If Christians want to babble at the ceiling, so be it. However, I am not interested in being apprised of your vacuous, empty prayers. Yes, empty. Thousands of Christians are allegedly praying for me, yet my health remains the same, and I am still an unrepentant atheist. It is evident, at least to me, that prayer doesn’t work. It can’t, because the Christian God is a myth. He can no more answer a prayer than another mythical being, Satan.
That said, if I am instantly healed of gastroparesis (incurable), exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (incurable), degenerative spine disease (incurable), and peripheral neuropathy (incurable), I will repent and put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Time to put up or shut up. Surely, with all these prayer warriors praying for me, healing is but an utterance away.
This commenter gossiped about me with a pastor associated with Catch the Fire Ottawa. This pastor sent the woman a copy of what he prayed (all spelling and grammar in the original):
— begin prayer —
Lord Jesus,
We lift up Bruce to You today. You see his pain, You know every part of his body that is suffering, and You understand the depths of the times of despair he has felt at times bevause of it. He has said that if You cared enough to heal him, he would believe. Lord, we know that You do care — deeply. You cared enough to come, to suffer, and to die so that we might have life.
So we boldly ask, in Your mercy, that You would touch Bruce’s spine and body. Heal what doctors say is incurable. Bring relief where there has been only pain. Speak peace into the storm of his body and mind. Let healing flow through every part of his nervous system, his muscles, his digestive system, his pancreas — and especially his spine. Let him be able to say, “God heard me. God helped me. God is real.
But more than just healing, Lord, we ask that You would draw Bruce to Yourself. In Your gentleness, open his heart to Your love. Reveal Yourself not just as a healer, but as a Father and a Friend. God loves the fatherless. Meet him in the dark places with Your light. Give him hope not only for his body, but for his heart and inner well-being, healing from trauma and deep brokenness.
You often used healing in Scripture to bring people to faith — not just to restore their bodies, but to re-invite them into a relationship with You. Would You do that for Bruce? Not just to lessen his pain, but to show him You have never forgotten him.
We ask all this in Your powerful and compassionate name, Jesus Christ, our Healer and Redeemer. Amen.
Yes, Lord! We ask for a regenerative miracle for Bruce.
Amen
— end of prayer —
What more can I say other than “sigh.” (Please see Why I Use the Word “Sigh.”) Just another example of a follower of Jesus who shows no regard or respect for me or thinks she knows what is best for me. Such behavior is unsurprising. I’ve been blogging for seventeen years. I have seen this boorish behavior over and over again.
For the record, I wish I weren’t sick. I wish I weren’t in pain all the time. But wishing, like prayer, is a waste of time. Life is what it is, and no amount of babbling to the ceiling will change that fact. I accept that this is my lot in life. As I mentioned above, most of my health problems are incurable. There’s nothing doctors can do except treat my symptoms and try to alleviate my suffering.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Fifty-three years ago in September, I made a public profession of faith at Trinity Baptist Church in Findlay, Ohio. This simple, brief, heartfelt decision became the foundation of my life for the next thirty-five years. According to my pastors, and later my professors, once an unsaved sinner gets saved, they can never, ever lose their salvation. I remember R.B. Thieme saying that once a person is saved, they can blaspheme God and deny that Jesus saved him without affecting his salvation. In other words, once you sincerely pray the sinner’s prayer, you are f-o-r-e-v-e-r saved. Nothing you do afterward can separate you from the love of God and his grace. And I mean nothing. Sure, Christians can backslide and find themselves out of the will of God, but this does not affect the state of their salvation. Once saved, always saved. If what we do affects our eternal destiny, that means we are saved by works, and not faith. Or so many Evangelical preachers say, anyway.
While the Bible certainly can be used to justify these beliefs, the Bible can also be used to show that Christians can and do lose their salvation and end up in Hell. Further, the Bible also teaches that once a person loses their salvation, they can never, ever be saved again. For Christians who believe you can lose your salvation, works are essential to saving faith.
Which soteriological position is right? They all are. Every Christian sect, preacher, and church member uses the Bible to justify and prove their beliefs. How can we possibly know which view is right? I think the best way to determine who is right is to put representatives of each position in an octagon ring and let them fight it out. The last soteriology standing is right, or, at the very least, less wrong than the other ones. You would think God would be clearer on such an important subject, but alas, God cares more about his golf score or finding Grandma’s keys for her, that he doesn’t have time to settle the terms of salvation.
Let me set up this discussion with a hypothetical scenario.
Have you ever heard preachers say, “If a person doesn’t obey the Bible, they may not be saved, even if they claim to have faith.”
But then at a funeral, the same preacher may say, “The deceased person was saved because they claimed to have faith, even though they didn’t obey the Bible.”I noticed this inconsistency when I was in high school when one of my close friends passed away.
So which is it? Do we have to obey the Bible until we die to be saved, or is it enough to have faith?
Well, I’m confident that the Bible teaches that once someone is made alive in Christ, born again, and becomes a believer, they have eternal life that can never be lost or returned.
That means a Christian who becomes an atheist will still have eternal life. They are still saved even if they fall into unbelief and disobedience.
Now, I know many of you that might be a new idea. However, it’s not an idea I invented, but instead a concept that the Bible teaches quite consistently. So I thought I would take a minute to answer a few obvious questions that the video raises.
Some opponents of this idea will say that a “true” believer will never stop believing.
But the Bible doesn’t distinguish between “true” belief and belief.
Secondly, the Bible speaks of saved people who stopped believing for a time.
….
If eternal life is given when one first believes, then obedience is not required for salvation. If receiving eternal life required a life of obedience then Jesus could only give eternal life at the end of someone’s life when they proved that they could be obedient. But that’s not what the Bible tells us.
It sounds good on the surface, but there are a few of problems with this claim. It is true that Someone’s belief in Christ can blossom into good works. In fact, that’s what we hope happens with all Christians. We hope that they add good works to their faith. We hope that they not only believe but obey Christ. So if someone is doing good works in obeying Christ it’s likely they are doing that because they have believed in him. We have to be careful here though, we can’t use good works as proof that someone has believed since it’s possible for a believer to disobey Christ. We find that in second Timothy two, first Corinthian‘s three, and a number of other places.
There is another problem with this concept still. We can’t use obedience to Christ as proof of faith since Current actions are most likely based on current beliefs. Therefore, current inaction can only be based on current disbelief but is not necessarily based previous disbelief.
You can’t prove that someone never believed in the past by how they act in the present. There was a time when I believed it was ok to drink only coca-cola all the time. I acted on that belief while I still believed it. However, I no longer drink Coke all the time. Can you infer from my current actions what I used to believe? Obviously not. The only thing that you might be able to make a guess on is what I currently believe that I shouldn’t drink Coca-Cola. Even then, I could be acting against what I believe. The point is, trying to use obedience to Christ as proof of faith is a flawed method.
Eternal life is not given after a life of belief, but at the first moment, one believes.
Therefore, present disobedience cannot demonstrate a lack of belief in the past.
….
The bottom line is if you believe in Jesus for eternal life you have it. No matter what happens after that point you still have it.
An atheist’s current unbelief doesn’t negate salvation received earlier in life.
A believer’s future unbelief or misbehavior can’t dissolve, destroy, or derail their deliverance from Hell.
Even if the Christian strays that can’t sabotage, subdue, or stop salvation.
So there ya have it, outspoken atheist and denier of the central claims of Christianity Bruce Gerencser is still a Christian! According to Kitchen, because I made a profession of faith fifty-three years ago, there’s literally NOTHING I can do to lose my salvation. And I mean nothing! According to Kitchens, I can’t sabotage, subdue, or stop my salvation! Take the men who frequent the pages of the Black Collar Crime Series, Vile, corrupt men the lot of them, but have you noticed that many of them end up back in the ministry after being punished for their crimes? How is this possible? Simple, 1 John 1:9:
If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9 NRSV)
This means that forgiveness is but a prayer of forgiveness away, and since the Bible says in Romans 11:29: For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable, not only is a pervert’s salvation irrevocable, so is his calling. And it is for these reasons that David Hyles — an IFB preacher with a long track record of immorality and crimes — is still a preacher, and people continue supporting him.
Romans 8:31:35, 38-39 says:
What then are we to say about these things? If God is for us, who is against us?He who did not withhold his own Son but gave him up for all of us, how will he not with him also give us everything else? Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? It is Christ who died, or rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ?
….
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The Apostle Paul was clear: NOTHING can separate us [Christians] from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I wasn’t in the ministry long before I realized how bankrupt this kind of thinking really was. Guaranteed salvation gives men like Dr. David Tee (whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen), Revival Fires, John, and countless other Christians the freedom to live as they wish without fear of losing their salvation. Nothing they say or do can separate them from the love of Jesus. In those rare moments when they genuinely feel sorry for what they do, all they have to do is to sincerely repent, and God will wipe their slate clean. Awesome, right?
As a pastor, I concluded that, as James did, “faith without works is dead; that we show our faith by our works.” Think of all the Evangelical miscreants, including those mentioned above, who comment on this site, send me emails, and write blog posts about me and the readers of this site. What do their words say about their Christianity? Everything. Don’t tell me what you believe, show me. By the late 1980s, my preaching had a Calvinistic bent. No longer did I preach the truncated, bastardized gospel of my IFB upbringing and training. Sure, IFB preachers could prove their beliefs from the Bible, but so could I. I determined that a faith+works salvation best reflected the teachings of Jesus. This, of course, led to me being accused of preaching “works salvation.” Better than no-works salvation, I thought at the time.
To this day, I think there should be a connection between beliefs and how a person lives. As an agnostic atheist and humanist, I try every day to live according to the ideals reflected in the various humanist manifestos. And when I fail, what do I do? I do my best to make things right, and, if necessary, make restitution. Unlike the Evangelical Christian, who prays to God when atoning for sin, I make things right with those I’ve offended. No God needed.
Am I still a Christian? According to Kitchens, I am. And nothing I do can change this eternal fact. Once saved, always saved. After I post this, I think I will get drunk, snort some drugs, and go pick up two prostitutes for a wild roll in the hay. I am sure I will feel guilty afterward, so all I have to do is ask the God who doesn’t exist to wipe my slate clean. I can do this day after day, and God will still forgive me. What’s not to like about his form of Christianity, right?
To the thousands of heathens who read this blog, I encourage you to stop what you are doing and pray the sinner’s prayer, asking Jesus to cleanse you from your sin. No need to cross your fingers. No matter what you do, and that includes murder, rape, incest, and rooting for the Cubs, the triune God of the Bible will forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness. That’s why Paul had to field the question, “Should I sin more, so the grace of God may abound?” While Paul said, “God forbid,” the Bible says differently. Sin away, Christians, God’s forgiveness is but a mumbled prayer away.
I am sure this belief sounds absurd to many of you, and I agree. I am no more a Christian than Satan himself. There’s nothing in my life that remotely suggests I am a Christian (other than I live a better life than many Christians I know). Scores of people who read this blog are former Evangelical Christians. This means they are still s-a-v-e-d! Maybe we should start an online church, First Church of Saved Atheists or First Church of Hitchens. As long as we had a momentary born-again experience, we will go to Heaven when we die. Though, when I think about it, do I really want to spend eternity praising the name of a narcissistic God? Hell is starting to sound more appealing to me. But I can’t go to Hell even if I wanted to. Once saved, always saved. I am powerless to divorce Jesus. We are forever married, regardless of what I say or do.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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Kind, thoughtful Christians will often object when I reveal how I have been treated by Evangelical Christians since 2007. In their minds, they can’t fathom a Christian threatening to murder someone. Alas, deplorable conduct from Evangelicals is common; more common than polite, respectful behavior. Throw in the Evangelicals who take delight in threatening me with eternal punishment in Hell, and I’ve concluded that my writing either attracts the worst Christianity has to offer or this sort of behavior is normative.
Today, Daniel left the following comment:
I know you’re not lying, but you have seriously had “Christians” send you death threats? I’m sorry. That’s pathetic and vile. Jesus very clearly said if you hate someone in your heart it’s as if you committed murder. Wishing death on an atheist is totally opposite of what Jesus taught (I do believe His teachings myself). Can you expound on this or write an article about these threats? If you have not already.
I have had a few Evangelicals threaten to murder me. One man, an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) from Detroit — 2 hours from my home — threatened to slit my throat. Others have prayed imprecatory prayers, asking God to physically and permanently silence me. And then there are the threats made against my family, including my thirty-five-year-old daughter with Down syndrome.
I have received thousands of emails, comments, and social media messages from Evangelical Christians. The majority of them were argumentative, belligerent, and hostile. Evidently, Colossians 3:12-17 NSRV is missing from their King James Bibles:
Therefore, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience.Bear with one another and, if anyone has a complaint against another, forgive each other; just as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.Above all, clothe yourselves with love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; teach and admonish one another in all wisdom; and with gratitude in your hearts sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to God.And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
These verses tell believers that they are to clothe themselves with certain behaviors. It seems to me a lot of Evangelicals are stark naked.
Here’s the thing: while their behavior is detestable, is it really much different from polite, smiling, Bible quoting Evangelicals who feel duty-bound to tell me and other non-believers that we are headed for Hell unless we get saved? While murdering me is bad, is not consigning me to endless torture and suffering in the Lake of Fire worse?
Even if I returned to Christianity, I would never attend an Evangelical congregation. The damage is done, and the behavior of too many of them is a poor reflection on Jesus. I have no interest in a religion that is known for what it is against, and is one of the most hated sects in America. The first people to object to this post will be Revival Fires and Dr. David Tee. Not surprising since they are known for abusing and attacking anyone and everyone who disagrees with them
Today, I received a long email from a Mennonite man near Somerset, Ohio. This man was a teen back in the days when I pastored Somerset Baptist Church. I befriended some of the Mennonite men who lived nearby. I found the lot of them to be good people. This man’s email reflected that goodness. It was polite and informative, a reminder of the common connections we once had. (Short Stories: Bruce and the Amish.) While a nice letter from an Evangelical man won’t convince me to return to Christianity, it does remind me that not every Christian is like Revival Fires and David Tee. I suspect the letter writer and his fellow Mennonites would condemn their behavior, as I have.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
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