Several years ago, I received a Facebook message from a Canadian seminary student by the name of Matt. I assume he is an Evangelical. Here’s some of what he had to say:
You don’t know me. I am a seminary student at a school in Canada. One of my professors passed around your article entitled “Know it all Evangelicals” and asked the class to post a response in the class forum.
As I considered my response, I felt that if I wanted to take the assignment seriously, I should also post my response in the comments on your article . . .
. . . If you are not interested in this I completely understand and will bother you no more. I wish you all the best as you battle through your health issues. Thanks for considering my request.
Here’s the comment Matt posted to the class forum page:
Dear Bruce,
Thanks for a thought provoking article. I’ll admit that my first reaction was indignation and the inner protest that while this may refer to most Christians, it certainly doesn’t refer to me, don’t lump me in with everyone else.
I suspect that just about any Christian reading the article would feel similarly at least initially. Perhaps others would jump on the bandwagon and say, “Yeah, that is the problem with the church, they are so arrogant and they know nothing.” as though they themselves are somehow apart from and therefore better than the church.
Then I tried to think more about what you are really saying. It seems that the main problem that you outline in the article is the arrogance Christians tend to have based on their knowledge which in reality often amounts mostly to ignorance. I wonder if I really can be lumped into that category.
Perhaps in your years as a pastor you had the experience of having kids from your church go off to Bible College and then come back after a year armed with a new knowledge and a great zeal to correct the areas where you were in error in your leadership. The reality is that I was one of those kids. I recall as a Bible School student zealously inserting myself into a church conflict in the church where I grew up.
I made sure to point out to the pastor the areas where he was wrong and clearly warned him of the dangers of his behaviour. He was a man who was struggling in life, he had a teenage daughter causing a great deal of grief in his home and a church in turmoil around him and I am sure that in my great wisdom and discernment I caused far more harm than good. I look back on that incident with no small regret and hope that I have learned something since then.
Now, years later I find myself with a role of leadership and influence within the church and your article is a challenge to me. I can ask myself, “How can I be an influence for good in the church? Can I challenge the young people around me to get into their Bible, to study the scriptures and to think about what they are reading?” I think I can. The reality is that if the scriptures are true (and I believe that they are) they are worth studying and knowing. If they are truly a way to know God then this is what I should devote my life to learning and I want to influence the next generation of the church to change the reputation that we have of being arrogant and ignorant.
Thanks for your challenge.
Matt
I’m am not sure which post (s) Matt was referencing, but I do remember what I wrote. (Please see Know-it-all Christians and Why Do Evangelical Pastors Think They Know Everything.) I focused on the arrogance of many Evangelicals when it comes to them thinking they know everything. In truth, most Evangelicals know very little about theology, the Bible, the history of Christianity, and the transmission and historicity of the text they claim is divine. Even among preachers, the lack of knowledge is astounding.
I think Bart Ehrman’s books should be required reading in Evangelical churches — even more so in Evangelical Bible colleges and seminaries. Evangelicals should know where their Bible and beliefs came from and how much these beliefs have changed over the centuries. They should know that many of the claims they make for the Bible are not only laughable, but ignorant. If they are going to say that the Bible says ____________, then they should, at the very least, learn to defend and explain their assertions. In the process of learning how to defend themselves, they should expose themselves to authors and scholars outside of their sect, men such as Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan, John Shelby Spong, N.T. Wright, and even secular, non-Christian writers of the ilk of Bart Ehrman, John Loftus, and Robert M. Price. And that’s just for starters.
I take the Bible seriously, and those who say they believe it should do the same. I hope, in the advice that Matt gives to future congregants, he will encourage them to read outside the rut of their peculiar sect. Any belief worth having will stand examination and critique. Now, if it is really all about faith, then future Evangelical preachers such as Matt need to make that clear. They need to state that their beliefs are faith-based, and not evidence-based. This we believe, then becomes an article of faith, a shared faith, that may have some facts attached to it, but such facts are not required.
I want to thank Matt for his comment. I always appreciate it when Evangelicals make attempts to engage me on a thoughtful, professional, and intellectual level. Rarely does this happen, so I am all the more pleased when it does. His kind message to me is a reminder that my writing is often discussed far beyond the pages of this blog.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
First off, we need to look at the source of scientific information. Are the people bringing us the alternative to Genesis 1 or scientific discoveries actually and truly Christian? If not then we know that they are being led by evil and are deceived people.
They are the blind trying to lead the blind.
….
God separates education into two distinct categories—true teaching and false teaching. If the scientists are not following God and the Bible then they are not bringing true teaching to the faithful. They may mix some of the truth in with their alternative ideas but as all con men know, to deceive people you need some truth to make the con work.
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Secular scientists and alternative believers bring a different gospel than the one Jesus and the disciples taught. They are saying that Moses is wrong but Jesus, Paul, and the apostles never corrected Moses and in fact, Jesus stated in John 5:45ff that if you do not believe Moses how can you believe his words? So believing Genesis 1 is important to one’s salvation.
Secular scientists and alternative believers do not believe Moses thus they try to alter the gospel message because they cannot bring themselves to follow God’s rule of using faith to accept a supernatural origin.
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We have help [God and the Bible]. The secular scientist does not have this aid so we know that whatever they conclude or say is not coming from God but from evil. They do not know what the truth is.
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There is only one way for secular science to be compatible or harmonized with scripture and that is for those in secular science to repent of their sins and get right with God then toss out all false teachings from the field of science.
God and the Bible do not humble themselves to secular scientists, science, or alternative believers. Those groups are to humble themselves and give up what is wrong. We cannot put the truth into secular science because it is not made new but a very sinful and corrupt field of research and the Bible teaches us.
….
One is not blessed by God for taking sinful words and counsel over God’s words. Here is a question I have asked many an atheist, alternative believer, and secular scientist: Where in the Bible do both God and Jesus give permission to take secular science over their words?
So far not one of the people I have asked has been able to provide an answer.
They can’t because both God and Jesus tell us to follow them over the secular world and to use faith when we believe. We do not have to use secular science and its rules to combat secular science. We just need to know who God is and what happens if he is wrong to see that the truth lies in Genesis 1 and not with those who have rejected that passage of scripture.
It is not the amount of educational degrees behind a name that finds the truth nor is it the amount of expertise or years of doing experiments that lead us to the truth about our origins. It is following the Holy Spirit that gets us to the truth and the Holy Spirit will not contradict God or the Bible.
— Dr. David Tee, TheologyArcheology: A Site for the Glory of Scientific and Theological Ignorance, Harmonizing Science and Scripture, September 3, 2024
Why do you people bother arguing and debating with this guy? He’s spiritually dead as a doornail and always has been. His 25 years in the pastorate was a complete sham. If you doubt that call the leadership staff at any of the churches and ask about his conduct. On top of multiple failed “ministries,” he has hopped from job to job and place to place (22 and 18, respectively). Don’t waste your time reading his blogs. His mind is darkened and his heart hardened by sin. He has nothing of substance to offer you. Above all else don’t make a donation and facilitate his folly.
This man did read a few more posts than the typical Evangelical asshole (9), so for that HSV Counseling gets a gold star beside his name. Atta boy, you sure put that atheist Bruce Gerencser in his place. Here’s what HSV wants readers to know:
I am presently as spiritually dead as a “doornail (utterly devoid of life).”
I have always been as spiritually dead as a “doornail.”
The twenty-five years I spent pastoring Evangelical churches was a complete “sham.”
The leadership at the churches I pastored will confirm that my work as their pastor was a “sham.”
The churches I pastored were “failures.”
I worked a lot of jobs and lived in a lot of places in my lifetime. This is another sign that proves I was a “failure.”
People shouldn’t waste their time reading my writing. Why? My mind is darkened and my heart hardened by sin.
I have nothing of substance to offer readers.
And, most importantly, people shouldn’t make donations me, facilitating my folly.
I find it interesting that Evangelicals — who don’t know me — can read a few blog posts and then, angered, outraged, and butthurt about what I wrote, attempt to psychologically wound me by attacking my character. Years ago, such attacks were quite effective. So much so that I would often stop blogging for weeks and months on end. At the time, I thought, why won’t they just accept my story at face value? Why do they have to attack me personally instead of interacting with my writing? Why are they comfortable with lying about me and distorting the narrative of my life?
I am not sure that I can answer these questions, but I do know that how I respond to such people has changed. I no longer let their words harm me. Sure, much like everyone, I don’t like it when people personally attack me, malign my character, and, on occasion verbally assault my spouse, children, and readers of this blog. I know these Cowards for Jesus® hide safely behind their computer screens, smartphones, and tablets, never fearing the consequences of their un-Christian behavior.
When I have the opportunity, I will track them down and out them, giving a very public face to their hateful words. Years ago, an Evangelical man sent me numerous hateful emails and comments. I eventually figured out who he was. This Coward for Jesus® was using his work computer to email me. One day, while he was, once again, verbally assaulting me, I called the HR department at the company he worked for, informing them as to what this man was doing while on the clock — while accessing the Internet from his work computer. This man never sent me another email. He got my message loud and clear.
The same goes for James Tester, an IFB pastor who sent me a nasty email several years ago. Unfortunately, for Tester, he left enough breadcrumbs for me to track him down. (Please see IFB Pastor James Tester Sends Me a Message.) Now Tester has to live with the fact that when someone searches for “Pastor James Tester” on Google, the aforementioned post ranks fourth, right after his Facebook and Instagram pages. Do I find a bit of smug satisfaction when this happens? Yep, I sure do. There’s little more that I can do than publicize their “faith” for all to see.
Alas, for HSV Counseling — bclarkf150 — all my Google search returned was Herpes Simplex Virus Counseling. There’s a punch line there for readers who would like to make the connection.
I will continue to publicizes these kinds of emails and comments because I think it is important for people to see the ugly side of Evangelical Christianity. If nothing else, they remind us of one of the reasons we walked (ran) away from Christianity. It’s hard to argue for the moral and ethical superiority of Evangelicalism as long as Jesus-loving trolls attack and disparage the very people Jesus commands them to love.
Now, let me get back to counting all the donations I received today. Almost enough for me to buy a Lear Jet! All praise be to Loki!
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
I follow the KJV 1611 group on Facebook. Recently, the following meme was posted:
I decided to respond to the meme. Enjoy!😉 All spelling, grammar, punctuation, and bad arguments in the original.
Bruce: I studied the Bible and that’s why I’m an atheist. 😈 Indeed, the truth shall set you free!
KJV 1611: Bruce Gerencser “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” – God
Tommy: Bruce Gerencser you did not study bc if you had you wouldn’t be an atheist..
Bruce: Tommy, I was an Evangelical Christian for fifty years, and a pastor for twenty-five years. So nice try, but no cigar.
Tommy: Bruce Gerencser yeh, so you page says .. that doesn’t mean you understood what you read.. hey, I’m not judging… Youre a grown man, you have free will. Which is proof that God is real.. if we were confined to just being science we would be bound to only to laws of physics.. no free will. But you tell yourself whatever you choose. Regardless, you know you shouldn’t deny God/Jesus Christ and def not the Holy Spirit. Please reconsider your position
Bruce: Tommy, where can I take the test?😂
Tommy: Bruce Gerencser just order your permits online like usual.🤣
Bruce: Tommy, we don’t have free will, so there goes your God.
Q: Bruce Gerencser .. so who made you become an atheist?🤔.. nobody but yourself= free will
Bruce: Tommy, sure. 😀😃
Tommy: Bruce Gerencser yep I made you make that response too 🤔🤣.. thank you for continually verifying that I am 100% correct.. Because it’s your continual free will to choose to respond Just as it’s my free will to continue to prove you wrong and it’s working perfectly!!
Bruce: Tommy, nope. I answered you because I’m preconditioned to answer dumb statements. I can’t help myself, it’s my nature.
More seriously, if you want to have a real discussion about free will contact me via my blog. I’m more than happy to explain my understanding of free will — both as a Christian and an atheist. I’ve much to say, but this isn’t the proper forum to do so. 🤣❤️
Tommy: Bruce Gerencser you obviously, YOU HAD A CHOICE TO RESPOND.. OR TO NOT RESPOND ,,, WHICH proves you did 1 or the other and that was your choice , nobody made you. . that is free will. God isnt going to make you choose him. Your choice to respond to me Your choice to except him. Please, stop arguing…m still yet a free choice..
Janie: Bruce Gerencser pitiful.
Bruce: Janie, thank you.😂
Emily: Bruce Gerencser Galatians 5:7-9 KJV Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? This persuasion cometh $not of him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump…… there’s still time for you to repent and turn back to Christ
Bruce: Emily, sadly, you fail to understand that quoting Bible verses to atheists doesn’t work.
Joseph: Bruce Gerencser Anyone approaching God must first believe that He is.
Joseph: If I didn’t believe that you’re real, it would follow the same logic that it doesn’t matter what your comment says, or what you write on here at all. you’re an AI and you’re not real. If I approach you with that mindset I would have the same mindset about you as you do about God.
Bruce: Joseph, I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Marcia: Bruce Gerencser facts, if you are not a child of God you can never understand his words. God spoke in parables so that they who belong to him can comprehend. You need to ask God for his wisdom and his spirit. Because without his spirit it profited nothing. If God doesn’t give you his understanding, then you just don’t belong to him. He created us all. But not everyone belongs to him. A fool says there’s no God.
Bruce: Marcia, good to know. Then there’s no need to preach the gospel to me, right? Or telling me to read the book of John, right? Or quoting Bible verses to me, right? You might want to tell your fellow believers that I’m deaf. 🤣🤣
Michael: “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap” (Galatians 6:7).
“[12] The wicked plots against the just, and gnashes at him with his teeth. [13] The Lord laughs at him, for He sees that his day is coming” (Psalm 37:12-13).
“And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:7).
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad” (2 Corinthians 5:10).
“He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day” (John 12:48).
“He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him” (John 3:36).
“But unless you repent you will all likewise perish” (John 13:3).
“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel” (Mark 1:15).
“[18] Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, [19] that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. [20] Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God” (2 Corinthians 5:18-20).
Mr. Gerencser, I’m pretty sure it’s likely you haven’t read the Bible in full, that is, cover to cover. Typically, those who profess to be Atheists, yet also claim to have read and studied the Bible, likely did not read a lick of it, or if they have, it was perhaps a few verses here or there; or what they ‘heard’ of the Bible from a third party who themselves don’t believe, and who claimed they too “read” the Bible.
I have encountered many Atheists in my day, and usually all they have to hear is the preaching of the Gospel message and they decide to remain an enemy of God in their unbelief, because their pride is offended by the conviction of the Gospel. And most often than not, these individuals wouldn’t even bother to read more of what they believe is an offense to them. So the claims of most Atheists of having ‘read’ the whole of the Bible is far more a stretch of the truth than they personally believe the Bible to be. If we are keeping totally 100% here.
I pray the Lord has mercy upon you and quickens your spirit that you might believe, call on the name of the Lord Jesus and be saved! But if you remain stubbornly hard of heart, and will not receive a love of the truth, then it is simply as my Lord Jesus says, “You are not of God”, you are not of the truth, therefore you cannot receive His words. And if this is the case for you, woe unto you. For Hell is real, my friend, and judgment IS coming! Only God knows whether you will ever believe or not, so I will lovingly say to you, my friend, be reconciled to God.
Repent of your sins! Turn from them and turn to God! Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, whom God the Father sent to die for yours, mines and the whole world’s sins. Put your faith in Him [alone] to give you forgiveness of your sins, redemption, and salvation!
Seek the Lord—NOW—while He may be found; and do not perish in your sins. For tomorrow is not promised to anyone. The life of men is but a vapor; like the grass that fades, or the glory of a flower that’s here today but gone tomorrow. Yet, if you repent and believe the Gospel of Christ, even though you die, you shall live!
“[16] For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. [17] For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved” (John 3:16-17).
Call on Him! 🙂 <3
Bruce: Michael, I was an Evangelical Christian for fifty years. I pastored IFB, Southern Baptist, Christian Union, and Non-denominational churches in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan for twenty-five years. So, yes, I read the Bible — the KJV — cover to cover numerous times. All told, I spent 20,000 hours studying the Bible and preached 4,000+ sermons. I know, comprehend, and understand the Bible. If you doubt me, ask away. I’m confident I can pass with flying colors any Bible Knowledge Test you might give. 🤣❤️
Louwtjie: Bruce Gerencser sad to say this..but I question it…..were you ever born again. JOHN 3:3-5 Where you ever filled with the Hoky Spirit…did you ever confessed Jesus Christ as your Savior. ROM 10 :8-10…I don’t think so
Bruce: Louwtjie, yes, I was born again. Anyone who knew me at the time will testify of my faith in and commitment to Christ.
That I don’t fit in your peculiar theological box 📦 is your problem, not mine.
Bruce: Louwtjie, yes [were you ever born again], yes [were you ever filled with the Holy Spirit], and yes [did you ever confess Jesus Christ as your Savior]. Now what?
William: if your really a atheist??? you might have read the BIBLE, but study it is very different, you have my prayer that OUR FATHER will open your eyes to the real WORD of GOD [JESUS CHRIST] my opinion only
Bruce: William, yes I’m “really” an atheist — agnostic atheist, to be exact.
As pastor, I spent 20,000 hours studying the Bible and its attendant teachings. I preached expositionally. I committed myself to knowing the Word of God, not only for myself, but also for the people I pastored.
James: You cannot understand the bible unless the Holy Spirit gives you understanding, so if your not saved you have not the Holy Spirit indwelling you, therefore there is no understanding….
Bruce: James, yet numerous people quoted Bible verses to me in this thread. If I can’t “understand” it, why quote it to me? If the natural man cannot understand the things of God, preaching to me or quoting verses is worthless.
So, which shall it be?
Several other Fundamentalists commented but blocked me so I couldn’t retrieve their comments. Evidently, allowing an atheist to respond to a comment you made about him will give you demonic cooties.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Yesterday, I responded to an email from an Evangelical man I’ll call Fred Flintstone. The sender took great umbrage at me using his first name, so as not to upset him further, I have given him a pseudonym, Fred Flintstone. You can read Part One here.
Today, over the course of two hours, Fred sent me seventeen emails. Evidently, my response upset him. I don’t plan to respond to every one of his emails. Thoughtful readers will see that his emails speak for themselves; just seventeen more emails added to thousands of similar emails from Evangelicals I have received over the past seventeen years. I do, however, want to address several things mentioned by Fred, in the hope that by doing so, he will see that he has careened off the runway and crashed into a fuel truck, destroying whatever chance he might have had for putting in a good word for Jesus. Instead, he comes off as just another butthurt Evangelical who isn’t used to pushback.
First, the original article about Kenny Bishop was a defense of the man and his new path in life. I wrote:
Several days ago, I had a hankering for music from The Bishops. As I was listening, I thought, “I wonder where Kenny Bishop is today?”
….
Talk about finding the unexpected — a liberal, gay Kenny Bishop. I definitely didn’t see that one coming. That said, I am happy for Kenny and his husband Mason. While I am no longer a Christian, I know that Christianity needs more Kenny Bishops. I have no doubt Kenny was eviscerated for his repudiation of Evangelical orthodoxy and their hatred of LGBTQ people. I know first-hand how it feels to be cut a thousand times by people who once loved you, people who were your family, friends, and colleagues in the ministry. Kenny, it seems, has risen above the anger and judgment and made a new life for himself. I wish him nothing but the best. He will remain my all-time favorite southern gospel tenor singer. And better yet, he is an example for people who still believe in God, but want to free themselves from Evangelical bondage. For people of faith, there are kinder, gentler expressions of Christianity. As Kenny Bishop’s life shows, one can still meaningfully believe in the Christian God without being Evangelical. While I can’t follow such a path, I don’t condemn others who do.
Kenny is a United Church of Christ (UCC) pastor. The UCC is arguably the most liberal denomination in the United States. UCC theological and social beliefs are the polar opposite of the beliefs held by most Evangelicals. Would most Southern Baptist, Assembly of God, Church of God, other Evangelical sects, and nondenominational churches welcome Kenny into their congregations to sing or preach? Of course not. Evangelicalism is the primary driving force against societal acceptance of LGBTQ people. Kenny would not be permitted to be a member of most of these churches. Why? They consider him an apostate, a reprobate — whose behavior is an affront to the Evangelical God.
Second, Fred repeatedly complained that I didn’t answer his questions. What questions, exactly? His email contained all of one question mark, and even that sentence was as much a statement as it was a question.
Here’s Fred’s original email:
I read your Kenny Bishop piece. Kenny knew his lifestyle would not fit in Southern Gospel but he still finds way to serve. He believes as I do, savior above sin! Kenny’s still working. I don’t know how you become a Former Christian that is still moved by gospel music. The fact that it still moves you is a pretty good indication that there’s something still in you. The funny thing is Christians that claim they ain’t Christians anymore. That don’t work man! You can’t take that off like a shirt! You going to mess around and die and be pissed you in Heaven?
How many questions did you find?
Third, every Evangelical who emails me is served a page that says, in part:
If you are an Evangelical Christian, please read Dear Evangelical before sending me an email. If you have a pathological need to evangelize, spread the love of Jesus, or put a good word in for the man, the myth, the legend named Jesus, please don’t. The same goes for telling me your church/pastor/Jesus is awesome. I am also not interested in reading sermonettes, testimonials, Bible verses, or your deconstruction/psychological evaluation of my life. By all means, if you feel the need to set me straight, start your own blog.
If you email me anyway — and I know you will, since scores of Evangelicals have done just that, showing me no regard or respect — I reserve the right to make your message and name public. This blog is read by thousands of people every day, so keep that in mind when you email me whatever it is you think “God/Jesus/Holy Spirit” has laid upon your heart. Do you really want your ignorance put on display for thousands of people to see? Pause before hitting send. Ask yourself, “how will my email reflect on Jesus, Christianity, and my church?”
Fred has no justified reason for being upset that I used his first name in response to him, before changing it to Fred Flintstone. For the sake of future discussions, I will call myself Barney Rubble. 🙂
Fred threatens me with legal action, as if no one has ever tried that before with me. There’s nothing in my response to him that remotely breaks the law, and my editor, who is a lawyer, would tell me if I did. Fred might want to study up on things such as the First Amendment, Fair Use, and what is permitted in public discourse. I am a public figure, as is Kenny Bishop. U.S. law sets a high bar for slander, and I am confident I have not slandered anyone. My writing typically uses news articles, public documents, and websites to justify and bolster my posts. This blog primarily features my opinions about various religious or political subjects. People are free to read or not read what I write. If Fred wants to take me to task for what I have written, I suggest he start his own blog and type away. As a warning, let me say others have tried to methodically deconstruct my life. Every one of them eventually gave up. Successful blogging is hard work. Ninety-five percent of blogs are eventually abandoned. As you will see below, I have even offered Fred the opportunity to write a rebuttal post. Much as I did with Dr. David Tee, I am more than happy to give my critics the unedited space to respond to me.
Fourth, I have met the Bishops too. We attended two of their homecomings in Berea, Kentucky, and heard them several times in concerts over the years. One thing is for certain, neither Fred nor I know Kenny Bishop well. My goal was to encourage and support Kenny. Take a gander at the comments Jesus-loving Christians left on the original post and see my responses. They will tell you everything you need to know about my motivations.
Finally, I’ll never understand Fred’s approach to me. What did he hope to accomplish by repeatedly swearing at me, calling me names, threatening my manhood, and trying to scare me with baseless threats of legal action? How does his behavior square with what Jesus said to his followers about treating their enemies? Or where can the Fruit of the Spirit be seen in Fred’s responses to me? Look, I am a big boy with thick skin. I can take abuse from God’s chosen ones all day long. However, as a man who was an Evangelical for fifty years, and a pastor for twenty-five years, I can tell you that this kind of behavior doesn’t do anything to advance the cause of Christ.
If Fred had questions, I would gladly answer them. But, slinging curse words and derogatory names my way will not elicit the desired response. Religious beliefs (or atheist beliefs, for that matter) are not off-limits on this site. Want respect? Behave respectfully.
Fred is free to comment on this post or any other post on this site. If he asks legitimate, thoughtful questions, I will gladly answer them. I don’t shy away from interaction with people who disagree with me.
Bruce
What follows are the emails I received today from Fred. They are in the order I received them. All spelling, grammar, and punctuation in the original.
Email 1
You wrote another blog to pick apart my questions to you! How can you claim not to be a Christian but take something I said in Praise of Kenny Bishop and turn me into an evangelical person that’s mad at somebody! Most Christians or professed Christians would simply tell you Kenny is going to Hell! Keep writing your one sided, hateful blogs in the hopes you’re changing people’s minds about Christianity! You’re leaving an online legacy of straight up stupidity! I simply said If you were saved, you are saved and saying you’re not does not matter to God! I said you’ll still go to Heaven and didn’t wish Hell on you! Yes I am a Christian but the hate filled type, that’s not me! You didn’t even answer any questions. You dodged them with all the anti religious rhetoric! You’re an online joke!
Email 2
Don’t have a damn thing to add to the religious debate. You try to embarrass people that try! As a blood bought child of God, Hell with You!
Email 3
Seriously though sir! You said ask questions and you’ll answer. You didn’t mention you’d write an another addition to your bullshit with someone’s name it! What I’m waiting for you do is include my last name in your Christian hate speech and I’ll sue you for slandering abs twisting my words and my name to fit your cluster Fucked agenda! Yea I’m Christian but don’t be calling me out on a online unless you want to be on a court docket line!
Email 4
I have no trouble standing against a Web Hoe who misrepresents me!
Email 5
As far as Kenny Bishop. He and his family and fellow Gospel Artists know why he left Southern Gospel music but they still love him and his family does too. I’ve Met Kenny, Mark and the Bishops on several occasions. Their story would match mine contrary to what a Web Hoe says! Savior over sin may have been wrong terminology for someone like you who has no comprehension of what a savior really is! You weren’t man enough to live up to it! You Quit! Kenny & I haven’t
Email 6
That’s the only reason I replied to piece as we called it but now since we know that you lie on your page about people you don’t personally know it looks more like a “Piece Of Shit!”
Email 7
That’s how evangelical I am dude! I’ll cuss you the fuck out in Jesus Name!
Email 8
Seriously. The language I use, the bad things I do, the bad things that other people do. That’s what your piece of shit page is! It’s a gossip rag and you put my name on it for asking questions that you request? I am from a family of attorneys. My niece specializes in the cyber parts of the law. So go ahead and include my last name on your rag page and you’ll see what it’s like to make a bullshit webpage end up putting you in a trailer park without wi fi!
Email 9
We grow up being asked to believe in things that don’t exist. Santa, Easter bunnies, tooth fairies so I can definitely completely understand how an unseen God can get thrown in that mix. Honestly I can’t put to one particular thing in this world that I can point to and say “There it is! There’s proof of God” except things that I’ve personally been through but then again for someone like you, everybody has a story. I don’t judge you based on your beliefs! That’s the beauty of Freedom! We are free to believe whatever we want! Don’t turn your non belief into making a public mockery of my belief. If we going public the I have an attorney for that! Amen
Email 10
I don’t care about the religious aspect of it anymore. If you want to put my name on your rag, talking about human beings personal sexuality then you need to be sued anyway!
Email 11
You’re not a reporter or a journalist. You’re a Keyboard Thug!
Email 12
Finally in closing let this sink in that twisted mind of yours! I sent you a private email. You chose to call me out in a very public way and totally distort and mocked me in addition to outing Kenny again too! Kenny probably wouldn’t tell you this but I will because we’re all individuals with opinions and I’m Me! You called me out so my response is Fuck You!
Email 13
And mess around never was a reference to you doing anything against your wife or doing anything wrong. You ask people to message you with questions brother. That implies that you do not object to dialogue with people with different views. That’s Cool. What is not cool is to take that discussion public and only show your views! You want to interview me? You want to know exactly where I stand? Do that and you’ll see although I’m not ashamed to be a Christian and you’re not a Christian, we probably still have more in common than not. You’ll never know because you’re content to run with Bullshit!
Email 14
And in your specific case, I don’t think he does but I hope God does in your situation feels the same as you and me. Ok we ain’t friends anymore? Go To Hell Then!
Email 15
Because you can literally see Anything online is very misleading. Celebrities would be in court forever if they went after everybody that spoke ill of them. I’m just an average every day person. I do believe in God but I do have non believer and gay family members and friends. I don’t try to be all holier than thou and force my belief system on them. If I’m asked questions I’ll answer but I don’t judge on the partying and stuff. If I’m around it. I’m involved! I don’t see my faith a list of rules and regulations at all. That’s religion. I am not involved. Not Guilty. I have a personal relationship with God. I’m not a preacher or teacher. I try to keep the 10 commandments and if that is the wrong approach then it at the very least keeps me out of a courthouse so I’ll roll with it!
Email 16
I hope you enjoy the rest of your weekend. Don’t automatically jump to conclusions on people based on 1 email. Some of us who claim Christ, Don’t claim some that call themselves Christians! We are not Hate. We Don’t discriminate. We know everyone has problems and habits but we do too, so we love anyway! A Christian that comes at you any other way is not always the real deal!
Email 17
That’s one thing you will never hear in a current Evangelical church. 10 commandments were the law of God passed down from Moses and backed up by Jesus. Evangelicals will add every sin known to man as to why you’re going to Hell but all I remember Jesus saying was keep my commandments or laws and love one another! You take the coolest Christian’s ever in me and Kenny to try to use as click bait to further your beliefs! Dude were the closest thing to your beliefs without crossing over!
After writing this post, Fred sent me sixteen more emails.
Email 18
I have said everything I feel and have been told to cover! You referred to me on an open website and totally turned it around for evil intent. I’ve given you plenty of Ammo to write Part 2 but you better entitle “Keep The Shirt On because it might be the last one you got when I see your 67 year old, old ass in court!”
Email 19
You trying to low key bash people on your website. Let’s go big and do a podcast! Come at me with all that atheistic I’ll make an example of you by one statement attitude! You’ll be the laughing stock getting cussed out by someone who is saved! I’m not Holy bro! I’m Holy Shit! He said that!
Email 20
You are used to dealing with Christians who have been almost programmed to act a certain way. I identify as a Christian who has morals, but I was raised by a 3 times a week church mom and a former military alcoholic dad. My childhood was always in the middle of raising Hell and Amazing Grace so somehow at 50 I have kept both close to my heart! I’ll call you out on some straight up Bullshit and pray it over later!
Email 21
See I have taken all day on a Sunday replying to your bullshit post because you obviously took the time to write it. I don’t give a shit about misspelled words or proper punctuation. I’m not the one posting about people’s private lives. How you did me was shitty on I’m banking on you to do it again and include my last name like you did Bishop! You wanna be an Atheist playing God online with people! I’ll show you someone that will hit back in a more public way than a website!
Email 22
I know you don’t believe because you’ve never talked to anybody that believes but remained “Real!” If gay existed when I was growing up and when you grew up, I’m not at all shocked of it today! This ain’t new! You telling me God waited over 2000 to start picking specifically on gay people? That is also an Evangelical move to hide behind fairh to hate someone. You want to make masses believe your bullshit about people you don’t know just to make arguments against religion! I don’t come to you as religious! I didn’t come to you in disagreement about the existence of God. I made a comment about a good guy to you! You trying to pick apart every word as bad against you and Kenny! Pick apart Deez Nutz!
Email 23
So you basically got a guy that would sit down and have a drink with you and not be offended by anything you said to me in private but you chose to go public to mock me? Old Punk Ass Keyboard Thug with a website that looks like those fake ass magazines you used to see in grocery stores! Leave a Legacy Bro, not a Leech!
Email 24
I love dealing with highly intelligent people who think they have all the answers! Sometimes people aren’t questioning your beliefs or interested in arguing over religion. I was actually searching for bishops videos, clicked on your “Piece” of Shit and just gave Kenny some praise! I don’t know I had a 67 year old 1 sentence means an article Web Hoe who just waits on shit to jump on people. You jumped on the Christian in a Christian vs Atheists debate that will curse more than the Atheist! I don’t necessarily buy that salvation strips you of your rights to individuality, authentically being You! That’s the problem here man! Know your enemy before just picking unnecessary fights!
Email 25
I’m sure you love to argue with the intellectual seminary type but come down to the southern holding on by a thread sometimes people and see if you can persuade one of us to pussy out too!
Email 26
Goodnight! God Bless Hail Mary Hallelujer and all that. You yourself said you respected what Kenny did! How the fuck you going to jump on me for saying the same thing from my perspective?
Email 27
In total finality, you are a former pastor and I understand partly how you can have your beliefs change. You were a pastor on the front line. You saw firsthand how big of assholes church members are! I saw i also. I worked in a restaurant and the Sunday after church crowd were the shittiest whiners all week. I saw grown ass men still in church clothes make waitresses cry minutes after getting out of Sunday Meeting. I’m not naive or dumb. I never said you’re dead wrong or out of line for your beliefs. How did my short ass comment spark a whole new one sided post with accusations, inferences and speculation about somebody you don’t know? Webster would define you as an intelligent Dumbass.
Email I sent to Fred Flintstone:
Mr ********,
You seem to think I am interested in corresponding with you. I’m not. I’ve heard from countless people like you. I plan to put your responses into another post. Feel free to comment on the post or write a guest post detailing your grievances. Outside of that, I have no interest in hearing from you again.
I did change your name to Fred Flintstone. I hope that suits you.
Bruce Gerencser
Email 28
That is fine. I’ll respect your wishes and leave you alone. Fire away!
Email 29
I’ve unfortunately dealt with people like you before in my job in law enforcement. As long as I can lie, I’ll talk! If I’m called out on a lie, no comment! Post one post with my name on or in it and I’ll take your ass for the ride of your lifetime!
Email 30
And it’s Sgt ****** to People who hide behind screens
Email 31
I gave you credit for serving time on the front line as a pastor. You may have hit reverse but you did serve the time. I understand that you and your don’t believe anymore but I pray that if there happens to be an eternity then the work you honest to goodness put in is recognized and enough! It may be totally in the past but you’ve been there and done it! That’s way more than some do! Goodbye
Email 32
Sir I have read your page and bio. I see about your health issues. I won’t insult you with prayer but I’m sorry you have to deal with all that. Fire away at me but I’m leaving you alone. I don’t want to upset you. Be Well Sir!
If Fred sends me any more emails, I will post them here.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Recently, I received the following email from an Evangelical man named Fred Flinstone (not his real name). My response is indented and italicized. (All spelling, grammar, and punctuation in the original.)
I read your Kenny Bishop piece.
The piece Fred is referencing can be found here: Southern Gospel Singer Kenny Bishop is Now a Gay United Church of Christ Pastor. Bishop is the former heterosexual lead singer of the Southern Gospel group, The Bishops. Kenny went through a lot of personal turmoil in his life, left Evangelicalism, came out as gay, married a man, and is now a United Church of Christ pastor in Lexington, Kentucky. Kenny remains a committed Christian, but is far from his Evangelical roots.
Kenny knew his lifestyle would not fit in Southern Gospel but he still finds way to serve.
Kenny doesn’t have a “lifestyle” any more than heterosexual Fred does. We are who we are. Kenny has chosen a path in life that is best for him, and I applaud his willingness to live openly and authentically, even if I disagree with some of his religious beliefs.
Kenny shouldn’t have to find ways to serve. He should be accepted as he is, but that’s never going to happen with many Evangelicals. Their archaic, anti-human interpretations of select Bible verses keep them from being welcoming human beings. In their minds, God and their peculiar interpretations of the allegedly inerrant, infallible Word of God trump treating people decently and with respect. LGBTQ people are abominable sinners, reprobates who have crossed the line of no return. Much of the violent rhetoric against LGBTQ people is driven by Christians holding to Evangelical (or Mormon and conservative Catholic) beliefs.
Kenny is a gifted musician. That his music is no longer received or listened to by millions of Evangelicals is unfortunate.
He believes as I do, savior above sin! Kenny’s still working.
I guarantee you Bishop does not believe as Fred does, As far as putting Savior above sin, Bishop is a gay man married to another man. According to Evangelical orthodoxy, he has most certainly NOT put Savior above sin.
I don’t know how you become a Former Christian that is still moved by gospel music.
If you want to understand my journey from Evangelicalism to atheism, please read the posts found on the WHY? page. As readers will see in a moment, Fred’s “understander” is broken.
Being moved by music is psychological in nature. I spent fifty years listening to Christian music. It would be odd for me to not find the music familiar, even though I no longer believe what most of the lyrics say. I am moved by all sorts of music. We go to numerous concerts during the year, listening to everything from hard rock to country music. We are quite eclectic musically. Last night, we attended a concert featuring Thompson Square and Walker County. Both my partner and I were “moved” by some of the songs — sometimes to tears. Neither of us is Christian, so God was not the locus of our feelings. How we feel when we hear music is driven by numerous factors, none of which require a deity or a religion.
The fact that it still moves you is a pretty good indication that there’s something still in you.
Of course, there’s still “something” in me. I am a living, breathing, flesh-and-blood human being. Of course, Fred means something different. Maybe God is still living inside of me or the Holy Spirit is still speaking to me, and sometimes he uses Southern Gospel music to “speak” to me. Sure . . . 🙂
The funny thing is Christians that claim they ain’t Christians anymore. That don’t work man! You can’t take that off like a shirt! You going to mess around and die and be pissed you in Heaven?
Here we go . . . According to Fred, I am still a Christian; that once I put on the “shirt” I can never take it off. This is akin to you still being married after you are divorced. I am a former Christian. I once was saved, and now I am not. I categorically and resolutely reject the central claims of Christianity. Jesus was a man who lived and died, end of discussion.
No, Fred is upset that he can’t square my story and that of other deconverts with his theology. That’s his problem, not mine. Perhaps he should rethink his theology or, better yet, just accept the stories of others at face value. When a person tells me he is a Christian, I believe him. I wish Evangelicals would do the same.
I don’t plan on “messing around,” whatever the Hell that means. My “messing around” days stopped in the mid-1970s. I plan on living until I die, and then it is over for me, just like it was for Jesus, the Apostles, and billions of people before me. I am confident no Heaven or Hell awaits me. And if I end up in Heaven anyway, will I be pissed? Maybe. It depends on how many Fred Flinstones live next to me. If I must choose, I prefer Hell with my fellow heathens. Much better company, music, and food. And best of all, no prostrating myself day and night before a narcissistic deity. I do hear, however, that the weather is a bit warm. 🙂
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Charles Spurgeon, a 19th Century English Baptist Preacher
God pity you people who call yourselves Christians and wear your long hair, beard and sideburns like a bunch of heathens. God, clean you up! Go to the barber shop tomorrow morning, and I am not kidding. It is time God’s people looked like God’s people. Good night, let folks know you are saved! There are about a dozen of you fellows here tonight who look like you belong to a Communist-front organization. You say, “I do not.” Then look like you do not. You say, “I do not like that kind of preaching.” You can always lump anything you do not like here.
Jack Hyles, sermon Satan’s Bid for Your Child
Where do Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) preachers get the idea that it is a sin for men to have long hair?
Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
According to this verse:
It is a shame for a man to have long hair
That nature teaches us that a man having long hair is shameful
Most Evangelicals believe that homosexuality is a sin, a sin against nature. In Romans 1:26, 27 the Bible says:
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
It is clear from Romans 1:26, 27 that when gays engage in homosexual sexual activity they are going against nature. Preachers scream from the pulpit, homosexuality is an abomination. It is unnatural!
The word nature that appears in Romans 1:26,27 is the same Greek word that appears in 1 Corinthians 11:14. According to the Christian Bible, human nature tells us that homosexuality AND a man having long hair is a sin. Or so Independent Baptist thinking goes, anyways.
John Wesley, 18th Century English pastor, Founder of Methodism
Why is it Evangelicals are so focused on homosexuality but rarely say a word about men having long hair? Both are against nature, if the Bible is to be believed. Surely, Bible-believing preachers would not want to neglect to preach about behaviors the Good Book calls s-h-a-m-e-f-u-l. Yet, most Evangelical preachers never say a word about men having long hair (and women having short hair).
The Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) church movement, a subset of Evangelicalism, is not ashamed to preach against homosexuality AND long hair on men.
I Corinthians 11:14 says, “Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?” The Greek word for “shame” in this verse is translated elsewhere in the New Testament as “dishonor,” “vile,” “disgrace.” In Romans 1:26 the same word is translated “vile”, “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.” You will notice that these “vile affections” have to do with homosexuality.
It is very interesting that as the trend toward long hair increases, the acceptance of homosexuality increases. This is not to say that long hair and homosexuality always go together, but it is to note the fact that both are on the rise in our generation. Several of the major denominations have now accepted homosexuals. In some cities there are churches for homosexuals pastored by avowed homosexuals. At least one major denomination has ordained a homosexual preacher and others are considering following suit.
Answering the question, Did Jesus have long hair? Hyles wrote:
The paintings of Christ are simply artists’ conceptions and have no Scriptural authorization. At least one historian of His day described Him as being a tall man with chestnut-colored hair, parted in the middle, with short hair which turned up at the end. In the book, THE MODERN STUDENT’S LIFE OF CHRIST by Irving Vollmer, published by Fleming H. Revell, the author says, “Archeologists object to the conventional pictures of Christ because they are not true to history.”
A German painter, L. Fahrenkrog, says, “Christ certainly never wore a beard, and His hair was beyond a doubt a closely cut. For this we have historical proof.” The oldest representations going back to the first Christian centuries and found chiefly in the catacombs of Rome all pictured Him without a beard.
All the pictures of Christ down to the beginning of the first century and even later are of this kind. Students of the first century and of Roman history are aware of the fact that the time of Christ was characterized by short hair for men. This author has seen many coins and statues which bear the likenesses of emperors who reigned during and after the time of Christ. Such likenesses reveal that the Caesars and other rulers and emperors had short hair, and of course, the subjects followed the example set by the emperor.
The plain simple truth is that during the life of Christ, short hair was the acceptable style. That Jesus wore the conventional style of His day is proved by the fact that Judas had to kiss Him to point Him out to the soldiers. Had Jesus been somewhat different, as a long-haired freak, Judas could have simply told the soldiers that Jesus was the One with the long hair. This, of course, is not true, as Judas had to place a kiss on Him in order to identify Him.
Answering the question, What should a Christian’s attitude be about long hair? Hyles wrote:
The only long haired person other than a Nazarite mentioned in the Bible was Absalom, a son of David. It was he who rebelled against his father. It was he who started a revolution. It is worth noting that even in Bible days rebellion, revolution, disobedience to parents, and long hair were associated.
Now what should the Christian’s attitude be concerning male hair styles? First, we men should follow the admonition of the Scripture and have short hair. It should be short enough as to be obviously contradictory to the revolutionary symbol. Many Christians allow their hair to become longer in an effort not to be identified as fundamental believers. Why shouldn’t a Christian be just as proud of his identity with the Word of God as the hippie is to identify himself with the revolution? Men, let us wear our short hair with pride as a symbol of our belief in the Bible and its Christ.
Parents, start your son with haircuts and short hair when he is a baby. With discipline and, if needs be, punishment, see to it that as he grows up he uses his hair as a symbol of patriotism and Christianity, thereby following the admonition of the Scripture that says in Romans 12:2, “And be not conformed (fashioned) to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
John Bunyan, 17th Century English Baptist preacher
Hyles’ booklet reflects standard IFB thinking about long hair on men. As a youth in an IFB church, a student at an IFB college, and an IFB pastor for many years, I heard a lot of preaching against men having long hair. Ironically, I heard very little preaching about short hair on women which the Bible also condemns.
IFB men are taught:
Long hair is a sign of rebellion against God
Long hair is effeminate
Long hair is worldly
What hairstyles are considered “godly?”
Hair off the ear
Hair off the collar
Tapered, and not block cut
Preaching against long hair on men finds its impetus in the rebellion against authority of the 1960s and 1970s. IFB preachers were alarmed that church youth were being drawn into the hippie culture. Preachers spent many a Sunday preaching against premarital sex, rock music, mini-skirts, and long hair — all hallmarks of the love and peace generation.
Their preaching did little good.
Fast forward to today. Many IFB pastors still preach against premarital sex, rock music, mini-skirts, and long hair. And just like their bellowing fathers in the ministry, they find their preaching largely ignored.
IFB preachers who preach against long hair have a real problem on their hands when it comes to suggesting that long hair is a sign of rebellion against God. While some men still have long hair, many rebellious worldlings now have short hair or shave their head. This conundrum is what happens when a preacher determines what is Biblical or “godly” based on the whims and trends of culture. (Some IFB preachers believe having facial hair is a sin too.)
Hudson Taylor, 19th Century Evangelical missionary to China
Besides, how l-o-n-g is long? Where does the Bible state exactly how short or long a man’s hair should be? If long hair on a man is “against nature,” why were Nazarite priests forbidden to cut their hair in the Old Testament? Was their long hair a “shame” against nature? Some of the most revered preachers of the past (see the pictures throughout this post) were men with long hair. Was their long hair a “shame,” against nature?
This whole subject might seem silly to many Christians and most non-Christians, but let’s not forget, it IS in the B-I-B-L-E.
Lest you think this is a silly issue, every day I see “is long hair a sin” search (or a variation of it) requests in the search logs of this blog. Evidently, in some corners of the Evangelical world, the length of a man’s hair still matters.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Suzanne, who blogs at Every Breaking Wave, had this to say about her experiences with home-based Evangelical Christian businesses (post no longer available):
One of the things that the ladies kept trying to pound in my head during those early days, besides telling me that I should use “To Train Up A Child” to discipline my very ill child, was that if I was going to be a good Christian submissive wife I was going to have to not work outside of the home. Which was foreign to me, I’d always had some sort of job outside of the home, even if it was part-time, and mostly tried to work at a time when Jim could take care of the kids so that they didn’t have to go to daycare.
This was the first time I’d heard of the family economy. I did this for a year or two, did the quilting, to make some money while I was incapacitated by the fibro. But eventually, I did go back to working outside of the home, to the disappointment and derision of the ladies of the church. I just kept telling myself that they didn’t know any better, none of them had college educations and it seemed like a waste of my own education to not work.
But like any good cult, eventually, the messages being replayed over and over again went into my head and I started seeking a way to do the home-based economy thing, find something I could do. When I started making flags it seemed like the perfect answer, most of what I made was either an air-brushed design or something like a 9 foot long half round lame flag with an inset of glittery chiffon or a specially shaped, painted, stoned, flag that was one of the kind. One of the most popular ones I sold was a half-round flag with a flaming sword appliqued into place and bejeweled and stoned with a hand-worked sword hilt on the flag handle.
What I’m trying to say is that the flags were one of a kind, hand made, designs I’d come up with, more like art work than anything mass-produced. I charged accordingly, because, none of those things I’m talking about are quick and easy. Sometimes I’d have close to sixty dollars in materials alone in the flags.
At first, I sold quite a few, and I’d get contacted frequently to make something special, or perhaps an entire set of flags just for a church. Did so well and had enough orders that I quit my job as a systems admin at an insurance company. Home-based economy, honoring God, etc…
…With the flags and large banners I ran into a snag after a few months, a snag I’ve seen played out again and again and again in the Christian home economies in many different divisions.
It would go something like this. I’d be at a teaching conference, or someone would see my now-defunct website and start asking questions about one of the items. Most of the time this was about the half round 9 foot long flags with a half-round center of glitter bedecked chiffon, not an easy item to make, but one that I’d managed to come up with a nearly foolproof method to make. I had my own pattern I’d made, and my own special technique for appliqueing in the center, while cutting away the solid lame in the center. It wasn’t easy, but it was my way to do it that worked every time.
The problem with this particular highly-coveted flag is that you needed a minimum of 5 yards of very expensive materials. It was usually about sixty dollars for fabric in that particular one. The ones that contacted me proclaiming what Good Christians™ they were also were the very ones that demanded either a) a big discount or b) to know exactly how I made that flag so they could make their own. Why? Because the $90 I was charging was thought to be too much for this item that took lots of expensive fabric and the expertise to make.
Many times I’d give in with a sigh, sketch out how to make one if I was at a conference, or explain via email. Usually what happened is that the person would get so far into the project, screw it up and then demand I fix their mess. For free. Most of the time when I looked at what they’d done I’d have to point out that they’d mangled the delicate fabric so badly that they’d have to start from scratch again. Would have been way cheaper just to buy from me in the first place.
Eventually, I’d sell the pattern, but people would still balk at spending ten bucks for a pattern and demand I explain for free.
And the people who were whining and demanding were also screaming out what Good Christians™ they were so I owed it to them because I was a Christian.
I got to see that Good Christian™ dynamic at work in just about every place, public secular business, or Christian business, people saying that since they were doing the work of the God they deserved a discount or freebie, who would not let up until they got their way. Vyckie Garrison and I have had discussions about the Good Christian discount whine.
To add insult to grievous injury every single freakin’ time I’d come up with a new design, something I’d sketched out, made the pattern for, and then made the sample and posted it on my website within a week I’d see a badly executed copy made from discount fabric of my original design up on Ebay for a cheaper price. To me, that is what separates true artists from the artisans. Artists do it because it’s inside of them, artisans are just looking to make a buck.
Even as sales were decent after awhile I got most burned out by the attitudes of entitlement, the begging, whining, demanding a discount, and the general intellectual thievery. I stopped making flags for anyone but myself, or when someone who’s seen one of mine and is willing to pay without whining. Just readied a big box of flags going on a missions trip to Cuba next month.
One thing I started to notice during my years at good old Creek Church, the tendency of the Creekers and other Good Christians™ to take advantage of people, press every advantage, and try to drum up business by means fair and foul. For example, just about everyone that sucked up to the Pastor’s wife bought Pampered Chef merchandise and many ladies at the church signed up to sell beneath her every single time she started putting the pressure to people over being Good Christians™ helping out each other.
It was as if none of them thought hard work and conviction was enough, they had to press every advantage and try to game the system each and every time. Some of them still are, hence Mrs. 5 by 5 fleecing two different sets of the elderly she did the books for out of over 20K. Today I saw her with another new senior citizen that has a small business and I’m going to see if I can talk to her newest employer’s relatives before she steals from this woman…
… Here’s what I learned in the last twenty years plus years dealing with Fundigelicals and their businesses/home-based economies:
(1) If they can take some small advantage of you, then they will. If you call them on it they will claim it’s their right as Christians to be entitled to more or they outright deny they’ve done it.
(2) They believe if they can whine, beat you down, demand, threaten or haggle long enough you will give in to their sense of entitlement and give out something for free or deep discount. Why? Because Christian! Because Bible!
(3) If you happen to not totally agree with their flavor of True Believer then they might refuse to serve you and/or jack up the charges.
(4) They act like they have some sort of moral superiority over you all the while behaving badly.
Suzanne’s wonderful rant and roll got me thinking about my own experiences with Evangelical Christian home-based businesses/Christian businesses, and a church that considered establishing such businesses as a command from God. Let me share several stories with you.
First, let me say I don’t have a problem with people starting home-based businesses. It’s a great way to make money. But, when such businesses are wedded to religious ideology, that’s where I have a problem. While Polly and I were ardent homeschoolers for over twenty years and came into contact with many families who had home-based businesses, we never desired to have one. The money was a lot better in the “world.”
In 2005, while living in Newark, Ohio, we attended Faith Bible Church (now called Jersey Reformed Baptist Church) in Jersey (Pataskala), Ohio. Polly and I loved this church, and we thought maybe, just maybe, we had found a church to call home.
Faith Bible was a growing patriarchal Calvinistic, Reformed church filled with young families with lots of children. Everyone home-schooled, the women were keepers at home, and while all the men worked, home-based businesses were quite common. I suspect Faith Bible had a lot in common with the church Suzanne mentioned in her post.
One day after church, our family was fellowshipping with several families and the discussion turned towards our family. It was assumed that we were like they were; that Polly was a keeper at home; that I was in the world making money to support my family. When Polly let it be known that she cleaned offices for State Farm and that I was unable to work due to physical disability, the air was sucked out of the room and the friendly discussion abruptly ended. It was quite clear that the manner in which we were trying to keep our heads above water was disapproved of, perhaps even regarded as sinful. From that moment forward, everything changed for us. We felt a sense of distance from other church attendees, and it was not long before we decided to attend church elsewhere (we attended Faith for many months).
It was not uncommon for families at Faith Bible to have lots children. Polly and I have six children, and in most churches that would be an exceptionally large family. At Faith Bible, we were just one large family among many. With families being so large and women not being permitted to work outside of the home, home-based businesses became an easy way to supplement family income.
Churches such as Faith Bible have a distrust of the government. They are quite conservative, vote Republican, and think the government should stay out of their lives. The Terry Schiavo case was in the news while we were at Faith Bible, and I vividly remember a discussion that went on one night at a men’s meeting. Everyone, well everyone except me, was against allowing Schiavo’s husband to terminate life support. I found it ironic that the men felt the government should step in and stop Schiavo’s husband, yet, to the man, they thought the government should stay out of their lives. I did appreciate the respect the men afforded me, even though I voiced an opinion they considered immoral. I suspect I was quite the topic of discussion later.
What better way to stick it to the man, to get the government out of your life, than to operate a cash home-based business? There are few government rules or regulations that apply to home-based businesses. Often, such businesses fly under the radar. They often don’t have the proper licenses or permits, pay taxes, or file tax returns. This illegal behavior is justified as “not giving the immoral, godless government any more money than we have to.”
Suzanne mentioned what is commonly called “getting the Christian discount.” Years ago, my Fundamentalist Baptist (please see John and Dear Ann) grandfather operated an airplane engine repair shop, T&W Engine Service, at the Pontiac Airport (now Oakland County International Airport). Tom Malone, chancellor of Midwestern Baptist College — the college Polly and I attended in the 1970s — owned an airplane housed at Pontiac Airport. One day, Malone’s plane was having engine problems, and he asked my grandfather to take a look at it (he knew Grandpa was a Fundamentalist Baptist). Grandpa did, told Malone what was wrong, and how much it would cost to fix it. Malone asked for the “Christian discount.” After all, he was doing the Lord’s work. Shouldn’t a Christian businessman want to help out a pastor? Grandpa told Malone that there would be no discount. Malone was quite upset that Grandpa wouldn’t give him preferential treatment.
I pastored Evangelical churches for 25 years. I can’t tell you the times I had a business owner ask me if I wanted the “pastor’s/church discount.” In every instance, I said NO! Just because people are Christians or pastors doesn’t mean they deserve discounts. Yet, some Christians and pastors have no problem begging for Jesus. Like Tom Malone, they say they are doing the Lord’s work, and shouldn’t EVERY business owner want to give God’s special people a discount?
While businesses often grant Christian discount requests, it doesn’t mean they like it. They are pragmatists, fearful that if word gets out that they aren’t giving discounts, they will lose customers who are Christians. Pastors can ruin a business just by gossiping about it at “prayer” meeting or mentioning them in a sermon. Maybe they will, but in my view, it’s better to lose customers than to do business with those who try to extort you in the name of God. A political example of this was John McCain being stuck with Sarah Palin as his running mate in 2008. McCain hated Evangelicals, but fearing the loss of the Evangelical vote, he gave Republicans the “Christian discount” and made the IQ-challenged Palin his running mate. We know how that all turned out.
I, for one, do not frequent businesses that use the fish (ichthys) symbol or cross to advertise their companies. By using these symbols, they are saying that Christian business and Christian money have more value than mine. From time to time, I will run into Christians in store parking lots selling their wares. Often, they try to convince me to buy by giving me a guilt-laden speech about the money going to support their Christian family, their church, their youth group, orphans, or overseas missionaries. I NEVER buy from people who use Jesus to make a buck. In fact, I go out of my way NOT to buy from them (and mock and insult them if they try to pressure me into buying).
I pastored one church where I had to ban home-based sales marketing during church services. From Mary Kay and Avon to Pampered Chef and Tupperware to Girl Scout Cookies and Amway, church members tried to get other members to buy their wares or attend their parties. I began to think that the church was turning into the story in the Bible about the money changers in the Temple. I saw myself as Jesus cleansing the Temple. As I look back on this, I now realize that my preaching helped to promote such an environment. I was a complementarian — a traditional-family, women-not-working-outside-of-the-home preacher, so church women, for the most part, didn’t work. This created a huge problem because most of the families were quite poor and they NEEDED two incomes to make ends meet. Wanting to honor the commands of Bruce Almighty®, they turned to home-based businesses to supplement their incomes. Rarely did their home-based businesses generate as much income as they would have made in the evil, sin-filled, secular world.
Several churches I pastored had Christian business owners who also home-schooled their children. In every case, the children became a free or poorly paid workforce. One such business was totally staffed and operated by children. What upset me the most was that the children would be running the business during the times they should have been home doing their school work. Their parents told me that their children did their schoolwork in the evening. They used A.C.E. (Accelerated Christian Education) materials, so very little parental involvement was needed. This family never properly registered with the state or local school officials, so they were pretty much free to do whatever they wanted. Still, I am surprised no one ever reported them. I suspect one reason they weren’t is that the children were quite engaging, a pleasure to be around. It was hard not to see them, though, as a rural Ohio version of a sweatshop.
Let me reiterate, I am not against home-based businesses. I am all for people making money and providing for their families. What I am against is the religiosity that is connected with many of these endeavors. Putting out a booklet that lists all the home-based or traditional Christian businesses in the area is a sure way to make sure they never get one dime from me. I expect the people I do business with to compete in the marketplace. I expect them to play by the rules, have the proper licenses and permits, and pay taxes.
Just in case some Evangelical is getting ready to whine and complain about my unfair characterizations of home-based businesses, I am not saying that all home-based Christian businesses are like those mentioned in this post. However, many of them are, as are businesses owned by Evangelical zealots.
Over the years, numerous Christians have called me up to schedule an appointment to share with me a wonderful, God-honoring way to make shit-loads of money — okay, they didn’t say shit-load. A.L. Williams, Amway, Excel, and more vitamin-weight-loss-better-health MLM programs than I can count. In every case, they are no longer in business. Evidently, God failed to bless their hustling for Jesus.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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Rebellion is a common word in the vocabulary of Evangelical Christian pastors, church leaders, husbands, and parents.
Here’s what the Bible says about God’s view of rebellion:
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king. (1 Samuel 15:23)
Those who practiced witchcraft were to be put to death (Exodus 22:18, Deuteronomy 18:9-11), so it is clear that God considered rebellion a serious matter.
God commanded a harsh punishment for a rebellious son:
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them; Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you and all Israel shall hear, and fear. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
The Old Testament is the written record of how a thrice Holy God dealt with a rebellious people, Israel. Page after page details God’s judgments against his people and those who got in his way.
When we get to the New Testament, the word rebellion is not used. Does this mean that God has changed? Of course not. How is it possible for a perfect God to change? Malachi 3:6 says:
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
The Bible says, speaking of Jesus:
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Hebrews 13:8)
It is clear, from the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God that God is immutable. He doesn’t change (though there are a few texts that seem to suggest otherwise).
Evangelical churches and pastors generally believe that both Testaments are authoritative (especially those Old Testament verses about tithing). Granted, Evangelicals are quite contradictory in their interpretations of the Old Testament, picking and choosing what they want to believe, but they do say all sixty-six books of the Bible are authoritative.
The key word is AUTHORITATIVE.
Evangelicals take seriously the matter of rebellion because they believe that the Bible is an authoritative text, and from that text they deduce an authority structure.
It goes something like this:
The Christian God is the supreme authority over everything. He is the sovereign King and Lord over everything. He is the creator. He is in complete and absolute control. Even with salvation, no one can be saved unless God permits them to be saved. Both Calvinists and Arminians alike believe God is the final arbiter when it comes to salvation.
The Christian God has established an authority hierarchy in the church. Under Jesus Christ, pastors (elders, bishops) are the head of the church. They have been called by God to teach, correct, lead, and direct the church. They are to initiate discipline when necessary to ensure the church is a pure, holy body (though many churches have a pretty low standard for pure and holy).
The Christian God has established authority hierarchy in the home. Again, under Jesus Christ, the husband is the head of the home, and his wife is to submit to his authority. Children are to obey their parents, and submit to their authority.
The Christian God has established an authority hierarchy for nations. All nations are to bow to the authority of the Christian God. Their laws should reflect God’s law. Better yet, theocracy, God rule, is the best form of government.
Evangelical Christians believe God rules over everything. There is no King but Jesus, and no God but the trinitarian deity of Christianity.
The problem here, of course, is that Evangelical Christians are human. Contrary to all their talk about being saved and sanctified, Christians are pretty much like the unwashed, uncircumcised Philistines of the world. For all their praying and confessing sin, they live and talk just like everyone else. Simply put, like all of us, they do what they want to do.
And that is a big, big problem.
You see, the authoritative God of the authoritative Bible demands absolute obedience. God expects Christians to implicitly and explicitly obey his commands. All of them. God will have none of this picking and choosing that American Christians love to do.
So everywhere you look you have Christians in some form of rebellion against God, their pastors, their parents, or their husbands. No matter how much they pray, read the Bible, go to the altar, and promise to really, really, really obey God this time, they continue to lapse into sin and rebellion.
This is what Jesus told his followers in Matthew 5:48:
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
It seems “nice” Jesus didn’t lower the standard when he came to earth. God expects and demands perfection. God will have none of this “I am not perfect, just forgiven” cheap grace Christianity. Jesus expects his followers to walk in his steps. Empowered by the Holy Spirit, they have been given everything they need pertaining to life and godliness. (2 Peter 1:3)
The difference between atheists and Evangelical Christians is guilt. Evangelicals live in a constant cycle of living right, rebelling, feeling guilty, repenting, and going back to living right. This cycle can go on numerous times a day. Atheists can feel guilty at times, but since they are not encumbered by a long list of Biblical laws, commands, rules, regulations, precepts, or standards, they are less likely to feel guilt. With no God hovering over them and no pastor preaching at them, the atheist is pretty much free to enjoy life. Generally, atheists try to live by the maxim: don’t hurt or cause harm to others, and when they fail they are likely to make restitution and ask for forgiveness from the people they hurt. No need for a God, Bible, church, or pastor. As humans, atheists have all the faculties necessary to be a good person.
What makes it worse for Evangelicals is that when they go to church on Sundays, their pastors remind them, from the Bible, of course, of how rebellious they are. These fallible, frail, sinful men of God point out the sins of their congregants, reminding them that God hates sin. These whitewashed sepulchers call on rebellious church members to repent. You would think that people would get tired of all this, but each week they dutifully return to church so their pastors can remind them of their sinfulness and need of repentance.
Children, especially teenagers, get this same treatment from their parents. When children don’t obey their parents, they are chastised and reminded that God hates rebellion. But kids will be kids, as every parent knows, and in most homes, it seems that children are either starting into rebellion or coming out of it.
Parents are commanded by God to beat the rebellion out of their children (Proverbs 13:24). God provides himself as a good role model to follow. Hebrews 12:5-10 says:
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
The Bible records how God goes about chastising rebellious Christians. He maims them, makes them sick, kills their families, takes away their possessions, starves them, and, if necessary, kills them. God goes to great lengths to make sure a Christian seeks after the “peaceable fruit of righteousness.” (Hebrews 12:11)
Here’s how God expects Evangelical Christian parents to respond to the rebellion of their children:
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. (Proverbs 22:15)
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. (Proverbs 23:13,14)
Let me tie this all together.
A divinely authoritative text from an authoritarian God establishes authority structures (hierarchies) for the church, family, and nations. Disobedience to God-ordained authority is to be punished.
For those of us raised in this kind of Christianity, we well know how this works out practically. The Bible, in the hands of God’s man, the pastor, is used to dominate and control people. Individuality and freedom are discouraged, and, in some cases, severely punished.
Pastors remind their churches about “pastoral authority.” Parents remind their children that they are to be obedient, and threaten them with punishment if they don’t. Husbands remind their wives that they are the head of the home and their word is f-i-n-a-l. Collectively, Christians warn government officials that Jesus is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings, and God demands they submit to the authority of God, the Bible, and his people (this is the essence of the theocracy movement in this country).
Some readers are likely weeping by now. Their minds go back twenty years or more to a time when they were teenagers. Their parents considered them rebellious. Often their rebellion consisted of things such as listening to rock music, smoking, getting pregnant, talking back, having sex, or smoking marijuana. Their parents, needing to show them that they were in charge, sent them off to group homes to get their “rebellion” problem fixed. What really happened is that they were cruelly misused, abused, and debased. Years later, their lives still bear the marks of the Godly “rebellion” treatment they received.
It is hard not to see cultism in all of this. I am sure Bible-believing Christians — people of the book — will scream foul, but the marks of a cult are there for all to see if they dare but open their eyes. Millions of people attend churches that believe the things I have written about in this post. This is what Bible literalism gets you. How could it be otherwise?
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
