Joel recently commented on the post, The “We Are Just Going to Have to Agree to Disagree” Cop-Out. My response is below.
I don’t believe that it’s because people are admitting defeat when they don’t take the time to counter every single thing you believe and say on here.
Joel doesn’t think that when Evangelicals say “we are just going to have to agree to disagree” that they are admitting defeat; that I can’t expect Evangelicals to counter every single thing I believe or write. I don’t think I have ever demanded believers challenge every belief or post of mine. However, those who can and do should expect me to respond to their pronouncements. Those who know me know me know I rarely leave comments from apologists and zealots unchallenged. People come to this site for different reasons. Evangelicals looking for debate/argument/response will likely get a one from me. Their problem, of course, is that they always get more than they bargained for, mainly because they either don’t know who I am or they marginalize or ignore my ministerial experience. Thus when they pompously roll out this or that argument, they are surprised when I push back; surprised I know the Bible inside and out, often better than they do. Backed into a corner, apologists often surrender, saying, “we are just going to have to agree to disagree.”
I think alot of it has to do with the fact that you seem very set in your beliefs and that even if someone were to point out reasons for believing otherwise (huff, puff, run-on sentence!) in a thousand ways, it would still somehow not be enough.
I am an agnostic atheist. I am open to evidence for the Christian God. I am not set in my ways at all. So far, Evangelicals have repeatedly used lame, worn-out arguments for God, Christianity, and the Bible in their attempts to evangelize me. Or “Philbros” will show up with their fancy philosophical arguments, none of which lead from A GOD to THE GOD — the God of the Protestant Christian Bible.
No, the problem is that I am not “ignorant of their devices.” Evangelicals seem to forget that I was one of them for fifty years; that I was a pastor for twenty-five years. I’m not Joe Blow American who has never read the Bible through one time. I spent the prime of my life reading and studying the Bible, preaching 4,000 sermons. The issue, then, is that I likely know more about the Bible than they do; that I am well versed in EVERY argument used by Evangelicals to proselytize people.
God knows exactly what I need to believe in him, yet all he seems to send me are Evangelicals who think C.S. Lewis, Lee Strobel, William Lane Craig, Josh McDowell, Gary Habermas, and countless other authors who keep regurgitating the same, old apologetical arguments are giants in the faith. Sigh. (Please read Why I Use the Word “Sigh.”)
What I’m saying here, is that it looks like your will is set in one direction, and people honestly don’t have the free time or energy to begin at the very beginning, from start to finish, to go through everything point by point.
Then don’t bother to comment on this site. Don’t start what you can’t finish, my Mom told me a time or two. Granted, I don’t like to give in, but I’m an honorable man, willing to admit my misunderstanding or defeat. I can’t remember the last time I had a debate/discussion/argument with an Evangelical that has led to a satisfactory conclusion. Usually Evangelicals cower under my overwhelming charm, sexual attraction, and knowledge of all things Evangelicals (and I haven’t found conservative Catholics, Muslims, and Mormons to be much better).
Have I ever thrown in the towel? Sure. A writer must know “when to hold ’em (cards) and when to fold ’em.” Years ago, as my long- time readers will remember, I would argue and debate until blood was drawn. I finally realized that I needed to live for another day; hoping that I will have another opportunity to engage a believer sometime in the future.
I have dealt with many brutish, nasty commenters over the years; almost always Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) church members and pastors. These folks will not stop until they cause psychological harm. Unable to make cogent arguments for their beliefs, these so-called Christians turn to personal attacks and violence. Typically, I try to end such discussions before they reach this point.
As far as Philbros are concerned, I typically give them a short leash. I have noticed that Philbros don’t like talking about the Bible, so I try to get them to discuss the Bible as soon as I can. Often, they will cut and run when I force them to defend the Bible. If they refuse to move on from philosophical arguments, I typically draw the discussions to an end. No one that I know of has ever been brought to faith in Christ by philosophical arguments. Doesn’t the Bible say in Colossians 2:8, “Watch out that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental principles of the world, and not according to Christ?” Evidently, Philbros have never read this verse.
Joel has forgotten what the Bible says in 1 Peter 3:15
but in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an accounting for the hope that is in you.
Besides, alot of people aren’t into the whole debating thing to death in order to ” be right”, so they just decide to tip their hat politely, and give you your space. Hence, the ” we’ll just have to agree to disagree” and move on.
Wait a minute. Who is it that comments on my site? Evangelicals. Am I forcing them to comment? Of course not. No, the issue here is that Evangelicals are used to being the king of the hill. They are used to dominating theological arguments. However, since the Internet came into being, their arguments are openly challenged and repudiated. Not used to ass-whippings, Evangelical apologists tend to get angry, claim I’m being mean to them, or they run off to social media or their blogs to whine about that evil atheist Bruce Gerencser.
Isn’t that what you say you want? To just be left alone to do your own thing without people arguing with you?
Yet, they don’t leave me alone, Joel. Thousands of comments, emails, and social media messages later, I can tell you that scores of Evangelicals have no intention of leaving me alone or agreeing to disagree.
if I write something, I hope people will read it. And if they read it, I hope they will comment. And . . . if they comment, they should expect people to respond to them. That’s how blogs work.
It’s not admitting defeat at all. People have reasons for believing that go much deeper than emotional experience.
Keep telling yourself that, Joel. You sound a lot like Donald Trump, who still refuses to admit he lost the 2020 election. Rare is the Evangelical who will actually engage my writing or read any of the books I suggest to them. You see, they aren’t interested in discussion or debate. Filled with the Holy Ghost, Evangelicals stop by this site to rebuke, condemn, and evangelize. When I won’t let Evangelicals have their way with me, they typically run to the house of faith, lose their tempers, or serve up the “agree to disagree” excuse.
Personal experiences are not evidence for anything, Joel. Surely, you know this. I have no way of knowing whether someone’s personal experience is true. I live in a world where evidence and facts matter. I want to believe as many true things as possible. When a believer shares his testimony with me, it will not do what he thinks it will. How could I possibly know if he is telling the truth? Anyone who has ever attended an Evangelical testimony meeting knows that lying/exaggeration is expected. I’ve heard countless testimonies over the years, including more than few that were exaggerations or bald-faced lies.
“There are more things in heaven and earth that are dreamt of in one’s imagination.”
Says who? Gawd, I sure hope some of my dreams never come true. I could end up divorced and in prison. 🙂 As far as Heaven is concerned, such a place does not exist. I have seen no compelling evidence for the existence of Heaven (or Hell). My days on this earth are short. I am confident that nothing awaits me after death. Evangelicals talk a great line, but when it comes to the afterlife, I have found their arguments or proof texts sorely lacking. I am content to live in the here and now, knowing that I will one day soon be no more. That’s life. I can’t imagine what Evangelicals could say that would ever convince me to return to the “one true faith.” By all means try, but it’s been years since I have heard a new argument for core Evangelical beliefs and practices. Instead, all I get is warmed-over arguments and proof texts. I enjoy the back and forth with Evangelicals, but they are delusional if they think I will ever return to the fold. Been there, done that . . . I want a refund.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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