Recently, a reader left the following comment on the page titled Why I Hate Jesus:
Just wondering if you believe in the Jesus that walked the streets and died on the cross, why are you an atheist?
I think Jesus was a real flesh and blood human being born in Palestine two thousand or so years ago. It is likely that Jesus was either a Jewish rabbi or teacher and attracted a small following in his thirty-three years of life. Running afoul of Roman law and teaching things contrary to the Jewish teachers of the day, Jesus was arrested, tried, and executed. His body today lies buried somewhere in an unknown grave. (I have less than zero interest in debating with mythicists over the existence of Jesus.)
I reject all the supernatural claims made for Jesus: his divinity; his virgin birth; his resurrection from the dead; his ascension to Heaven; the miracles attributed to him in the Bible.
As an atheist, I think Jesus was real because of the historical evidence for his existence. I reject Jesus’ divinity because of a lack of evidence for any of the supernatural works attributed to him. I suspect many atheists believe as I do.
One of the challenges all of us have when studying the lives of historical figures is distinguishing between fact and fiction. This is especially difficult when we are talking about people who lived thousands of years ago. It is much easier to study the lives of modern historical figures thanks to the printing press and the Internet. I have written extensively about my life on this blog. I still have things I haven’t written about or “secrets” that shall never see the light of day if I have anything to say about it. (And don’t read too much into that statement. I don’t have a secret love child, nor do I have a gay lover, and I have not been arrested for a crime. Now let your imaginations run wild.) 🙂 I suspect after I am dead, it would be fairly easy for an author to write a biography of my life. There’s plenty of source material that would be readily available to the author. That is not the case for most ancient historical figures, including Jesus.
Yes, I “believe” in Jesus, much like I “believe” in my mother who lies buried in Fountain Grove Cemetery in Bryan, Ohio. Both of them lived and died. Both of them left a legacy behind, but neither of them will be showing up for dinner on Thanksgiving.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Several days ago, I received two emails from a Baptist pastor named Stacey. What follows is my response to his emails. My response is indented and italicized. I appreciate Stacey’s polite, respectful tone — a rare experience for me with Evangelical preachers
Email One
I was raised in a Christian home and have been preaching for 18 years. I pastor a small congregation in Arkansas. I came across your blog about a year ago and it has intrigued me greatly.
Thank you for taking the time to actually read my writing. Far too often, Evangelicals read a post or two and then go into attack mode. Their goal is not to learn. I am viewed as their enemy, one unworthy of kindness, decency, and respect. I have received thousands of comments and emails from Evangelicals over the years. Few have been respectful and polite. Their goal seems to be to discredit me or deconstruct my life instead of genuinely trying to understand my story.
I can empathize with all of the things you went through as a Christian and especially as a pastor of a church. Sometimes church people can be downright ignorant, mean spirited and even cruel. I will not make excuses for these people or try to explain it away. People are people even when they become religious.
By far, the worst people have been Evangelical pastors, evangelists, missionaries, and professors. And then there’s Independent Fundamentalist Baptists (IFB) They are in a class all their own –overwhelmingly nasty, arrogant, and violent.
I only want to ask how you explain the historical accounts of Jesus. I know you are well educated with not only the bible but other historical accounts of his life. I may have missed this explanation in some of your other blogs and I have read most of them. I am sure you know of Lee Strobel and his Book, The Case for Christ, if Jesus did exist in history, then what do you say about him? Was he just a good man? Was his death and supposed resurrection a hoax? Just curious what you believe or better yet think on it.
We have very little evidence for the existence of Jesus. I am not saying we have no evidence. The Bible certainly contains history, but the challenge is decoupling myth and exaggeration from history. I take a minimalist approach to Jesus. He lived and died in first-century Palestine. We have no evidence for the miraculous claims found in the Bible, including Jesus’s resurrection from the dead.
Non-Biblical evidence for the existence of Jesus is scant, especially when you carefully examine the sources. I am of the opinion that if Jesus was all that Christians say he was, there would be a lot more evidence for their claims than what we have. We have no first-hand accounts, including the gospels.
I am aware of all the “evidence” for Jesus, I just don’t find it persuasive; not enough for me to bow down and worship him or devote my life to serving him. Christianity requires “faith,” a faith I do not have.
If you have not read any of Dr. Bart Ehrman’s books, I encourage you to do so. Ehrman is a New Testament scholar at the University of North Carolina. I found his books helpful when trying to understand the history and nature of the Bible. I would be glad to recommend several book titles if you are interested in checking them out.
I read Strobel’s book years ago. As an Evangelical pastor, I found it persuasive. Now that I have all the evidence at my disposal, I find his book unpersuasive and “simple.”
Email Two
I sent an email asking what your thoughts were on the historical accounts of Jesus were. I have read what you think of the western Jesus, you hate him I know.
The post Stacey is referencing is titled, Why I Hate Jesus — a polemical article about the Jesus of Evangelical Christianity. It is the most widely read post on this site six years running.
I want to know what you think of the Jesus that history records. Was this historical Jesus just a really good hoax that fooled believers then and is still fooling believers today?
Jesus was a flesh and blood person who lived and died. The religion that came to life after his execution for crimes against the state was primarily shaped by the Apostle Paul. I would argue that Jesus’s Christianity is very different from Paul’s; that there are at least five plans of salvation taught in the Bible: blood sacrifice, obedience to the law found in the Old Testament, and Paul’s Jesus’, James’ and Peter’s plans of salvation found in the New Testament.
Christian’s are taught to harmonize the books/texts of the Bible; that there is some sort of grand story and theme running through the pages of the Bible. I encourage people to read the Bible vertically, taking each book and author(s) as stand alone texts. Doing this will present a very different picture from the one painted historically by Christians. Take Genesis 1-3. Evangelicals typically read Trinitarian theology into the text. Reading Genesis 1-3 as a stand-alone text reveals a very different picture — one with multiple deities.
I know you are thinking, how could it all be a myth? Consider Mormonism for a moment, a religion you likely believe is false or a cult. Look at the foundation myths of Mormonism and its rapid growth and ask yourself how this is any different from the foundation and expansion of Christianity.
I can fully understand hating the Jesus that you have described but will you take a moment to tell me what you think of the historical Jesus that many history scholars say did exist. The Jesus that I have researched historically is the one that keeps me from doing as you have done and renouncing my Faith as well. I have found enough evidence in historical writings that make me believe in him. Unless those writings have been compromised and tainted as well. What are your thoughts?
At the end of the day, every person must look at the extant evidence and decide accordingly. For me personally, I do not find the evidence persuasive. And even if I did, I doubt I would worship the God of the Bible. I find the God of the Bible to be reprehensible, a violent, genocidal deity undeserving of my fealty.
I hope I have adequately answered your questions.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
What follows is “overwhelming evidence” for the Biblical Jesus. Or so says Etienne Van Heerden. My response is italicized and indented.
I have an extremely inquiring mind and questioned the religious teachings of my parents by wanting prove which i concluded after logical and scientific consideration of the following undeniable facts :
According to Van Heerden, what follows are undeniable facts for the Biblical Jesus. Van Heerden paints himself as one with an inquiring mind, one who came to these conclusions through logic and science. As readers shall see, Van Heerden skipped numerous shelves of books in his inquiries, coming to conclusions that are little more than apologetical talking points or fanciful thinking.
1) There must have been somebody like Jesus since his birth is still celebrated annually across the globe, by Billions of people.
Why? What actual evidence do you have for this claim? Billions of people worship all sorts of deities that Christians say are false gods. How do we determine your god claims are true, and all others false?
Do you believe Santa Claus is real? Every December 24th and 25th, people across the globe celebrate Christmas and pay homage to Santa. Using your logic, this means Santa is real. The same can be said for the Easter Bunny.
Personally, I believe there was in first-century Palestine a man by the name of Jesus. He lived and died, end of story. You are making claims that are not supported historically, as I shall show in just a minute.
2) He performed numerous well documented, teachings and miracles including curing the blind, feeding thousands of people with 5 loaves of bread and raising the dead including a partially decomposed Lazarus ( SOME EVENTS WITNESSED BY THOUSANDS) hence the reason for his huge following ,with no documented evidence to the contrary.
You are kidding, right? Well documented? Where, exactly? Please provide all this well-documented evidence for the claims you make for Jesus. All you have is the gospels — books written 30-90 years after the death of Jesus by unknown authors. None of the gospel accounts were written by eyewitnesses.
Further, there is little to no extrabiblical evidence for Christ’s existence, let alone the miracles you claim he performed. You would think that if a man had been performing these stupendous miracles in and around Jerusalem that a Jewish or Roman historian would have mentioned it. Yet, history is silent. Why is that? What logical conclusion should we come to?
Have you read any of Dr. Bart Ehrman’s books? Ehrman is a New Testament scholar at the University of North Carolina. His books demolish virtually every claim you make in your email. If you haven’t read his books, I encourage you to do so. You have definitely NOT done your homework if you haven’t read Ehrman’s books. And frankly, I know you haven’t. Had you actually read his books, you would never have made the false claims you make in your email.
3) His cause of death (well documented by numerous historians) was definitely attributed to crucifixion ,prophesied 600 years prior to his birth.
Again, I would love to see this well-documented evidence for the crucifixion of Jesus from NUMEROUS historians. This, my friend, is untrue. You are either ill-informed or delusional. If Jesus was the miracle worker you say he is, was executed on a Roman cross, and rose from the dead three days later, why did contemporary Jewish and Roman historians not write one word about it?
4) He must have been resurrected as the pharisees who hated him and organized for the Roman guards would have left no stone left alone grave stone unturned , to find his body if it was stolen as some might suggest.I live on a farm in South Africa with a fair amount of tracking skills and can conclude that it would have been relitively easy to track the transportation of his body on the gravel roads as it would not be more than a few hours of his body discovered as missing.
You seem to think bald assertions are evidence. Jesus was a flesh and blood human. What do we KNOW about humans? They all eventually die. No exceptions. Jesus was executed because he committed crimes against the Roman state. Whatever the circumstances of his burial, Jesus remains dead to this day. Do you have any actual evidence to the contrary?
Unless you can provide any ancient scriptures or documents to the contrary, one then has to except he was the son of GOD / MIGHTY BEING with the power to perform such miracles.
The burden of proof is yours, not mine. You have provided none, except for boldly asserting the Bible and its second/third/fourth hand testimonials are true. Do you believe NASA landed a spacecraft on the Moon in 1969? Do you know that there are people who believe the moon landing is a hoax, and they have even written books about it? You claim to be a rational man. I suspect you believe the Moon landing really happened, just as described by countless eyewitnesses. Why, then, do you reject the claims of the hoax believers? Evidence, right? Why would you not apply this same methodology to the Biblical Jesus? There’s no verifiable firsthand, eye witness evidence for the claims made for Jesus in the Bible. Yet, you accept what the Bible says as fact. And that’s fine as long as you admit that you believe these things on faith, not scientific, historical evidence.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
