You Say You Speak for God


Millions upon millions of voices all clamoring at the same time, all uttering the same thing.

God says…

The Bible (God) says…

God is leading me to say…

God is telling me to tell you…

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, right?

Get a Baptist and a Catholic in the same room and let them duke it out over One Baptism.

Father, Son, Holy Ghost and these three are one. Surely everyone agrees? Not me says the Oneness Pentecostal.

Baptism saves. It doesn’t save.

Communion is the Lord’s Supper. is the Eucharist, is really the body of Christ, is kind of the real body of Christ, or a memorial?

Pre, Mid, Pre-wrath, Post rapture and tribulation.

Pre, A, Post millennial reign of Christ.

Dispensationalism. Non-dispensationalism. Hyper-dispensationalism.




Cessationist. Non-cessationist.

The Old Testament is for today. No it’s not.

The gospels are for today. No they’re not.

New Perspective. Old Perspective.

Pauline or Peterine.

The OT law is still for today.

No it’s not.

Yes it is, but only the Ten commandants.

No, only Nine commandments. (No rest for me) and maybe the verses on tithing. Got to pay my salary, you know.

Only the words in red matter.

Only what Paul writes matters.

Did Paul write Hebrews?

Eternal Security. No, perseverance of the saints.

Losing your salvation. No. falling from grace.

Can I get my lost salvation back? Yes! No!



Sixty six books in the Protestant Bible. Catholics, and Orthodox count differently, but they aren’t Christians, so who cares how many books are in their Bible.

So you say:

God says…

The Bible (God) says…

God is leading me to say…

God is telling me to tell you…

Pray tell…why should we believe you?

Can you even answer the most basic questions?

What is salvation? How is a person saved?

By grace?

By faith?

By works?

By faith, plus works?

By faith, plus works, and staying true to the end?

I can choose?

I can’t choose?

God chooses me?

I choose God?

Baptism saves?

Baptism doesn’t save?

You argue endlessly among yourselves, like toddlers fighting over a toy.

The Bible SAYS!


Our church SAYS!

Our confession SAYS!

The Pope SAYS!

The Pastor SAYS!

There is one TRUE church and it is ours, hundreds and hundreds of denominations say.

With us and heaven is your home. Against us and you fry. Choose right, lest ye burn forever!

Your lack of unity is the indictment against you.

Your lack of a singular voice is clear to all who can see beyond the threats of hell and  promises of heaven.

You should not then be shocked when you try to tell non-Christians that God says or the Bible says and they smile and turn a deaf ear.

Oh wait, they are deaf because God made them that way.

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. (Luke 8:10)

It’s God’s fault.

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  1. sgl

    and it all started day one, with paul arguing with the disciples on whether circumcision was required for new converts or not. and it’s been continuing (and changing) ever since. not only could you not get every christian today to agree, i’ll bet you couldn’t even get catholics of today to agree with second century catholics. and yet they can still claim with a straight face, that “god is always the same.”

    1. Bruce Gerencser (Post author)

      As you know, most Christians have no understanding about the history of their religion. They rely on church leaders to tell them the “truth”, rarely considering that maybe their leaders are giving them a biased, truncated history. I laugh when someone tells me that their church is just like the early church. Sure it is. :)

      1. sgl

        yes. it’s been interesting to watch gary deconvert, and watching the “loving christians” become quite bitter and hateful or just silent, once it became clear he wasn’t going to become a christian again. and yet, before his conversion, he thought the hateful christians were a tiny minority. i think he’s also been quite surprised how little interest christians have in alternative points of view.

        i’ve heard similar things from other sources. patheos has a number of bloggers talking about churches dealing with same sex marriage, and stories from multiple people say they thought their church was accepting, until their own kid came out, and then they discovered just how un-accepting that church was.

        however, for those that have been outside the christian bubble for a while, it’s not a surprise at all. (of course, there’s multiple bubbles too, not just religion. there’s the white middle-class suburbia bubble, that can’t understand ferguson, etc.)

        1. Becky Wiren

          Sgl, your talk of bubbles is interesting. Most people don’t realize they are in ANY bubble. I grew up white middle class, not upper by any means. But it was the real deal insofar as my older brother was able to work hard and become quite affluent. The rest of us siblings have had it harder but nonetheless we are (at least holding on to) middle class. But I’ve been in different bubbles so I’ve tried to look at other POVs. Now I live in white rural America, super conservative, and I’m more liberal than ever, and no longer a Christian.

          I have Facebook friends that challenged my POV on Israel and Palestine. One friend is Native American and THAT POV is, of course, pro-Palestinian. I have black friends and hear their stories. I’m sickened by the white assumption that blacks getting shot is their fault. Oh, they don’t think that’s what they are saying. But when they say, “Well, he shouldn’t have run” or “he shouldn’t have ever committed a crime” (non-capital WTF?) so well, too bad he’s dead but. Maybe it’s because I read voraciously but I seriously don’t GET IT, why people are blind. And maybe I do, as trying to look at reality is hard for most of us. I’ve moved out of those bubbles that Christianity is right, the Bible is perfect, white America is the real America, and I’m 56.

          I think all of this does relate to Christianity. The Christian Right has no clue and think the Christian Left is EVIL socialism. I know some of those Christians may in their private lives may actually help people. But I’m not counting all the millions being thrown at churches to sustain their staff, their worship, their affluence etc. Just giving at church isn’t really helping. Better to tear all the churches down and feed the hungry and house everyone. I’m ready.

          1. sgl

            yes, people are really bad at that. however, in their defense, most people are quite absorbed by their busy lives just trying to make it thru the day. and there’s lots of propaganda by gov’ts, religions, political parties, corps, charities, etc, all specifically trying to influence them. (ever hear of “product placement?” corps pay to have their product included in movies and tv shows.)

            a much smaller part of the population has the economic breathing room to actually see thru much of the lies, but often choose to buy trinkets and baubles instead. i hold them more accountable than the average person.

            it also seems to be how the mind works, building up a mental model of the world, and all too frequently ignoring info that doesn’t fit into their mental model. do keynesian economists really seem to believe that printing money out of thin air to bail out the bankers is a realistic model of the universe and will fix the economy?

            ian mcgilchrist, psychiatrist among other things, wrote a book “the master and his emmissary” about this — i’ve watched several of his online videos talking about the results of his research, and it’s quite interesting. eg, studying people with strokes in various parts of the brain, and what impact it has on their perception.

            furthermore, there’s a theologian, maggie ross, who’s tied mcgilchrist’s work back to meditation/contemplation and silence. according to her, “beholding” is the process of giving up those rigid mental models via contemplation and interior silence. despite “behold” appearing 1300 times in the original greek and hebrew of the bible, the latest translation expunge virtually every one of them. according to her, without this background, much of the theology of the bible gets turned on it’s head. (see and click “look inside” and read the introduction) (she’s one of a very few religious people who i can read and partly agree with.)

          2. Becky Wiren

            Thanks for the link…I will look it up when I have time.

            You know, I have a friend who is Catholic and teaches little children. She is extremely busy doing all that and it makes her happy. She’s in her own bubble but…she is doing her best. She looks at the good things in her world and holds on. I don’t blame her.

        2. John Arthur

          Hi sgl,

          You raise some very good points here. I agree with you. Most churches are not really interested in encouraging their members to examine different points of view, nor are they interested in trying to understand the variety of agnostics or atheists that exist.

          The same-sex marriage issue is not really openly discussed, even in many churches that claim to be more open and liberal. There is usually a hostile evangelical contingent in these churches. These may be a small, yet very vocal minority in such churches.


          John Arthur

          1. sgl

            hi john,

            we get trapped by our own stories too. for a very interesting and out-of-the-ordinary perspective, read the following essay by john michael greer, who is an archdruid, and practices magic. he defines magic as change of consciousness thru will, and advertising and propaganda are included in that definition. in it, you’ll see that the liberal left (whom he generally agrees with) can get caught up in their own stories/their own bubble too. (i’ve read greer’s peak oil blog, and i enjoy is writing style and persptive. however, i have read little to nothing about magic, so i can’t comment much about that. but i did find the essay to be very perceptive, despite using terminology that i don’t typically use.)


            hence, it’s very much a human problem, embedded in the way we think, the way our minds work, not just a fundamentalist/religious right problem. it’s hard work to examine your own preconceptions, particularly ones that are deeply ingrained in your society and you’re not even conscious of them. greer, who studied the history of ideas, is pretty good about getting outside current society’s assumption, which is why i find him interesting.

            in fact, i think greer and maggie ross and ian mcgilchrist are all essentially talking about the same/similar things, but using radically different terminology, from very different traditions. yet they’re all based on human nature, which is and has been the same for a long time.

            there was a famous guy (tho not as famous as the beatles), who said “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”

            very hard to do in practice for anyone, not just fundamentalists.

  2. Zoe

    This says it all Bruce.

  3. Monty

    It’s funny….For 4 years I was the sole drummer at The Richmond outreach center A.k.A. The ROC (Ya know, the one where Geronimo Aguilar was pastor, now getting ready for trial for sexual conduct with underage girls in Texas). I did it without pay and never missed one service save one for a vacation. twice a week i did this, not not mention outreaches and out of town visits. Drumming is a passion of mine, so i had no problem doing this, especially for “God”.
    About a year before we moved to our large facility another drummer was brought on board to “help out” (By this time I was employed at the ROC). Oddly enough, the very week we moved into our new state of the art facility, I was basically told by the band leader that my services were no longer needed (Oh, they allowed me to play maybe one song per service…After all, I was foolish to let them use my drum set so they kind of had to). The phrase the leader used to me was “God is leading us in another direction”. (actually, the pastor preferred the busier style of my replacement because the church was now shown on local and national TV). Once I took my drume set off the stage, I was barred from playing, save for when the regular drummers couldn’t make it. i was the last resort. That phrase was said to me in April of 2010.
    I have since quit that place (And drumming in churches…Hell, I quit churches period!!) last Summer. A few weeks ago, exactly 5 years later from when that quote was said to me by the band leader, I got a text from him wondering if was interested in coming to play for a service. Hmmmm…so, did “God” change his direction again? Did “God” change his mind yet again?
    Of course I declined, but it stung a little because I was good for years, then “God” decided to switch directions, then 5 years later switched again. (The point is, people use “God” as a shield to hide their bullshit).
    So the whole “I speak for god” is one I loathe.

    1. Becky Wiren

      Wow, that is super crappy how you were treated. Sorry to hear that.

  4. Monty

    I appreciate that Becky. Sadly, that’s merely the tip of the iceberg on how I was treated there. Matter of fact that was one of the nicer ways I was treated!!!!
    If ANYONE ever doubts why I GLADLY walked away, gimme a few hours and I’ll tell you the ways I was mistreated by churches… know, “Gods chosen people” lol!!

  5. Violet

    I was directed to your blog by Peter, and just wanted to leave a comment about how helpful your posts have been to me. I appreciate how you keep this blog a safe place for deconverts…your comment policy had me laughing like crazy, with the check boxes for which kind of proselytizing were being thrown at you. 😀


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