Tag Archives: Salvation

I Saved Myself

brain_on_books

My friend Zoe wrote:

My Catholic friend will be – MCF

Her Catholic friend will be – HCF

I’ll be myself.  Albeit a really tired rendition of me.

So, MCF shared with me her concerns for HCF and what she believes and how that plays out in her everyday life.  MCF considers herself to be a liberal/progressive.  Her faith is very meaningful to her.  MCF considers HCF (also very dedicated to her belief) to be uninformed and prone to mostly black and white thinking.  Dogmatic.  The entire conversation as I listen reminds me of my Christian years.  Yes, we were to evangelize the lost.  Those without Christ.  But . . . for the most part we seemed overly preoccupied with one another, our fellow Christians.  Seems to me we could have seen more added to the kingdom if we stopped the back and forth about one another.  Hindsight.  Besides I’m out of the kingdom now.

As MCF despaired over HCF and her rather primitive belief ways my heart felt heavy.  Ironically I am in a position to defend HCF.  Though never Catholic I did with sincerity and a well-intentioned heart throw myself into what ended up being a very narrow, uninformed way of believing.  I yearned for black and white.  I wanted dogma.  In other words, “been there done that.”  I understood and understand how and why HCF believes the way she does.

After listening at length I decide to enter the fray by saying that I actually identify with HCF having once believed or tried to believe just like her.  You could hear a pin drop.  I continued.  I even shared other stories of my attempts to believe and how I wrestled with things like Christmas trees and Santa and Halloween and Satan.  I shared that if during my fundamentalist (commonly referred to as conservative evangelical back in my day) years one of my children had left the faith and been married outside of the church I would have been shattered too.  I could and do understand HCF’s grief.  Her world has been turned upside down

I shared many details of my former way of believing and I wasn’t really sure how it was coming across.  At one point MCF said, “Yes but you got out of it.  How?”..

…I told her that there was always two Zoe’s.  One was shattered and broken and didn’t have a sure foundation.  She needed firmer ground.  She was drawn to the need for absolutes and who better to provide them then God.  The other Zoe was the part of me that asked questions and she never stopped asking.  In the end, the Zoe that asked all the questions, got me out.  In other words, I saved myself….

…In the end I think MCF was stunned to hear how it is I once believed.  The thing is she sees the way she believes in a much more healthy way than HCF and me.  She can’t see the forest for the trees.  She doesn’t see that she still believes many of the things HCF believes and many of the things I use to believe.  It’s ironic to me to hear her explain how the Catholic church is evolving somewhat and how many Catholics and even the Pope leave’s room for non-Catholics in heaven.  And I thought to myself, ‘Oh that makes me feel better.’  :lol:   Not to mention that she’s still making an absolute statement.  That being that Catholics are the one true faith.  Just like HCF believes.

I hope you will meander over to Zoe’s blog and read the entire post.

Zoe speaks of their being two Zoe’s: one that needed certainty and absolutes, and the other that never stopped questioning. I suspect many Evangelicals turned atheist/agnostic were just like Zoe. They had a deep need for certainty and absolutes, but in the still of the night, away from the church and its pastor, their mind raced with questions that their Evangelical faith had no answer for.

Like Zoe, I was a devoted, committed, sold-out follower of Jesus Christ. I had a questioning mind too, but my questions tended to stay within the boundaries of orthodox Christianity.  My trajectory was more one of moving from Evangelicalism to liberalism, and it was out a liberal Christian belief system that I ultimately apostatized.

I know pastors who are proud of the fact that they have been preaching for twenty, thirty, or even fifty years and they still believe what they believed when they started preaching.  They started with a core set of beliefs and practices and have not wavered one bit. I often wonder, do they ever have doubts or questions? Do you they ever consider that they “might” be wrong?”

Zoe said of her journey, I saved myself. I know some Evangelical readers will see this as proof that Zoe was never a Christian. I am to the place in my journey where I just say
w-h-a-t-e-v-e-r when people say the same about me. People who say this are ignorant and lack the capacity to truly understand anyone or anything that does not neatly fit in their small, defined Fundamentalist box.  We waste our time casting our pearls before such swine, to quote the Good Book.

Like Zoe, I saved myself. My path was a bit different from hers, but both of us had questioning minds. When you have a questioning mind, you seek answers, and when the particular religious sect you are a part of doesn’t provide answers to your questions, you start to look elsewhere.

Over the years, I have had a few former pastor friends and parishioners tell me that my reading habits were my downfall. They suggested that I stop reading books and go back to reading ONLY the King James Bible.  In other words, ignorance is bliss.

Here is what I find interesting about this argument. When I was their pastor or part of the preacher fraternity, they applauded my reading habits. When they walked into my office they were surprised at how many books I owned. More than one person asked, have you really read all these books? Smile Yes, really…I have.  (I know pastors who take great pride in NOT having a library. All they need is the King James Bible, a Concordance, and a Dictionary. After all, that is all Jesus had.) Smile

In the Evangelical circles I ran in, I was considered the intellectual pastor. Pastors would call and ask my thoughts on this or that passage of Scripture.  But now, since that same study and worth ethic has led me to renounce my faith, suddenly, the problem is that I read too many books. (BTW, my devouring reading habit started in elementary school)

I spent most of my life in the Christian Church. Who and what I was were swallowed up by Jesus, the Church, and the Bible. I lost any sense of self-identity. After all, Jesus said, Let a man deny himself…and I took the word of Jesus seriously.(please read my posts The Denial of Self and Living in Denial) For decades, I lived according to the Evangelical mantra, Jesus FIRST, others SECOND, yourself LAST. In fact, I thought that if I put Jesus FIRST and others SECOND that I didn’t matter.

This coming Thanksgiving, it will be five years since I declared, I am no longer a Christian. Over the course of the last several years, I have seen a secular psychologist on a regular basis. He has helped me rediscover who and what I really am. He has helped me to reacquaint myself with Bruce Gerencser.

Bit by bit, Jesus, the Church, and the Bible, have been shoveled, one broken piece at a time, out of my mind. At times this has been quite painful. Becoming reconnected with who and what you really are can be frightening. Learning that you really do have emotions can be quite unsettling.

I remain a work in progress. I have no Jesus to rest in, no faith to cover myself with. I have no final authority to appeal to.  I must face head-on every question that comes my way. I can’t go back and I can’t go around, so I must stop and squarely face the question in front me.

There are times I secretly yearn for the certainty of the past. I wish I could consult the Christian divination book and parse all the issues that confront me.  To NOT think and just say, The BIBLE says_________________________, certainly has its appeal.

But, I know better. I know that certainty is an illusion and that finding answers to the questions I face requires hard work. No deity is going to find the answers for me. My personal salvation is not found in a religion or a divine text. The only person who can save Bruce is…Bruce.

The Backsliding, Get Right with God, Backsliding Cycle

backslider

Backsliding is very much a part of the fabric of many Baptist churches. Every Baptist church has three types of people:

  • The sold out, on-fire Christian
  • The unsaved
  • The backslidden Christian

Most Baptist churches have a small percentage of sold out, on-fire Christians and a smattering of unsaved people. The majority of people in the Baptist church are backslidden to some degree or the other.

What is a backslidden Christian? A backslidden Christian is a person who has spiritually slid backwards from where they once were in their Christian life. They have left their first love and have become a lukewarm Christian. While they might attend church on Sunday, their day-to-day life gives little evidence that they are serious about being a follower of Jesus.

Since Baptists believe that once a person is saved they can never lose their salvation, they must come up with a word that describes the majority of Baptist church members. Hence, the word backslider.

Every year the church holds a special series of meetings called a Revival. Revival meetings are needed when the church is in need of spiritual “reviving.” So the Evangelist comes to the church, preaches sermons meant to convict backsliders, and sure enough the backsliders stream down to the altar and get right with God.

At the altar the backslider confesses all the things that keep them from being a sold out, on-fire Christian. Many of them have been doing this for years. Revivals are like taking a bath once a year. The backslider gets all cleaned up, only to get dirty again a few months later.

Baptist pastors spend a good bit of their time trying to get church members to live the Christian life. They challenge people to come to church every time the doors are open, to study the Bible every day, to pray without ceasing, to tithe, and to witness to the lost. Little do church members know that their pastor is not much better off than they are. He puts on a good show in the pulpit but behind closed doors he struggles with many of the same things church members do.

Why are there so many backslidden people in the Baptist church? (I am sure this is a problem in other sects but my experience is with the Baptist church) Is it because most of them aren’t “really” a Christian? Is it because they really don’t want to give up the pleasures of the world?

At one time I thought so. I have come to see that the difference between the sold out, on-fire Christian and the backslidden Christian is a matter of personality or a matter of how much time a Christian has to devote to those things that would make them a sold out, on-fire Christian.

My wife was mother/teacher to six-children, keeper of the home, and on-call gopher for her God-called preacher husband. Like her husband, she was busy all the time.

Polly always had good intentions. She intended to read the Bible more, pray more, and witness more, but she never really got around to it. There was a time I feared for her soul. I wondered, doesn’t she love God’s word? Doesn’t she want to be in constant communion with God?

I now see that it wasn’t that she wasn’t willing as much as it was there was only so many hours in the day. After feeding six children and educating them and doing any number of tasks for her preacher husband, there was no time for God.

I could read the Bible any time I wanted and pray without ceasing because I had the leisure time to do so. I was being paid to be a good Christian. Many of the people I pastored worked 8-12 hours a day, along with taking care of their families, and they did not have the leisure time that I had.

It took me many years to figure this out. Until I did, I would beat people over the head with the sin stick and I tried to shame them into being a sold out, on-fire Christian. And it worked, for a time. People would get right with God, and, for a time, be a sold out, on-fire Christian. But, as the grind of day-to-day life wore them down, it was not long until they were back to their backslidden ways.

It should come as no surprise that many Baptists are quite depressed over the state of their Christian life. The cycle of getting right with God, backsliding, getting right with God, keeps the person from finding a resting place in their life. And just when they think they might have found a resting place, the preacher reminds them of how much Jesus did for them and how little they really do for Jesus.

Is this some aberration, a corruption of Christianity? Of course not. Jesus said, let a man deny himself, take up his cross and follow me.

Songs like, Set My Soul Afire, Lord, remind the Christian what it is that God expects of them:

Set my soul afire Lord, for Thy Holy Word,
Burn it deep within me, let Thy voice be heard
Millions grope in darkness in this day and hour,
I will be a witness, fill me with Thy pow’r

Refrain:
Set my soul afire Lord, set my soul afire.
Make my life a witness of Thy saving pow’r.
Millions grope in darkness, waiting for Thy Word.
Set my soul afire, Lord, set my soul afire!

Set my soul afire, Lord, for the lost in sin,
Give to me a passion as I seek to win;
Help me not to falter never let me fail,
Fill me with Thy Spirit, let Thy will prevail.
(Refrain)

Set my soul afire, Lord, in my daily life.
Far too long I’ve wandered in this day of strife;
Nothing else will matter but to live for Thee,
I will be a witness for Christ lives in me.
(Refrain)

I Surrender All is another Baptist standard that reminds every Christian of the devotion God expects from them:

All to Jesus I surrender;
all to him I freely give;
I will ever love and trust him,
in his presence daily live.

Refrain:
I surrender all, I surrender all,
all to thee, my blessed Savior,
I surrender all.

2All to Jesus I surrender;
humbly at his feet I bow,
worldly pleasures all forsaken;
take me, Jesus, take me now.
(Refrain)

All to Jesus I surrender;
make me, Savior, wholly thine;
fill me with thy love and power;
truly know that thou art mine.
(Refrain)

All to Jesus I surrender;
Lord, I give myself to thee;
fill me with thy love and power;
let thy blessing fall on me.
(Refrain)

All to Jesus I surrender;
now I feel the sacred flame.
O the joy of full salvation!
Glory, glory, to his name!
(Refrain)

Despite the preaching, the Revival meetings, and the soul-stirring songs, most church members could not sustain a life as a sold out, on-fire Christian.Too bad none of us sold out, on-fire Christians told them the truth…

Neither could we…

The Bruce Gerencser Salvation Primer

salvation

Evangelical Christians who stumble upon this blog and read my story are often confused, bewildered and left to ponder how it is possible for a man who was a Christian pastor for 25 years to now be an atheist.

What usually happens is their theology gets in the way of their ability to truly understand my story. Result?  I never was a Christian or I still am a Christian but I am backslidden.

Often, instead of accepting my story at face value, Evangelicals will try to find out the “real” reason for my deconversion. In other words, they think I am lying and have not told the real reason (s) I am no longer a Christian.

Sometimes, Evangelicals will say that the reason I am no longer a Christian is because I hate God, I am angry with God, or I have suffered severed mental or emotional harm and this has caused me to reject Christianity.

Every few days an Evangelical leaves a comment or sends me an email wanting to know…WHY? This post is my attempt to have one post I can point people to when they ask the question WHY.

My Christian Upbringing

I spent the first 50 years of my life in the Christian church. As an infant and preschooler, I attended the Episcopal Church and Lutheran Church in Bryan, Ohio.

In the early 1960’s, my Dad and Mom packed us up and moved us from Bryan, Ohio  to San Diego, California. My parents started attending Scott Memorial Baptist Church (Tim LaHaye was the pastor) and both made a profession of faith.

We left California after a few years and returned to Ohio. We moved all over Ohio, but one of the constants was we found a Bible-believing church to attend wherever we lived. Until my parents divorced in 1972, we were an “every time the doors of the church were open” church going family.

I made several  professions of faith during my elementary school years. I was baptized by immersion several times. Most children raised up in the Baptist Church have multiple professions of faith (or rededications).

My Salvation Experience

In 1972, Evangelist Al Lacy was preaching a revival meeting at Trinity Baptist Church in Findlay, Ohio. During the service I came under conviction of my sins and I knew that I needed to be saved.

The public invitation was given and I went forward. While kneeling at the altar I prayed the sinner’s prayer and at that moment Jesus came into my life. I was baptized several weeks later.

I was 15 years old.

My Post-Salvation Life

My life changed immediately and dramatically. I stopped swearing, started reading the Bible and praying, and began witnessing to my friends at school. (I took my Bible to school every day) I was hungry for God and wanted to know everything possible about the Bible.

My Call to Preach

A short while after being saved I felt God was calling me into the ministry.  I publicly declared to the church that I believed God wanted me to be a preacher.

A few weeks after being called to be a preacher I preached my first sermon. (2 Corinthians 5:18-20) I  preached my last sermon at age 48. All told, I was a preacher for 33 years. I pastored churches for 25 of those 33 years.

I trained for the ministry at Midwestern Baptist College, Pontiac Michigan. I attended Midwestern for 3 years. (I met my wife at Midwestern, Her father is a retired Baptist pastor)

My Beliefs

As an Evangelical Christian and pastor, my beliefs were typical orthodox Christian beliefs. I believed all the cardinal Christian doctrines. I believed salvation was in and through Jesus Christ alone. I believed all religions but Christianity were false religions.

I believed the Bible was the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God. I was a young earth creationist, pro-life, anti-homosexual, and a card-carrying member of the religious-right.

While I left the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church movement in the late 1980’s-early 1990’s, my theology remained conservative throughout my time in the ministry.

My political beliefs moderated in the late 1990’s and I developed a more tolerant, ecumenical approach to other Christian sects.

At no time did I ever not believe that the Bible was the Word of God. My interpretation and application of the Bible changed greatly over the years, but I never stopped believing the Bible was God’s revelation to us.

Leaving the Ministry

I left the ministry as a tired, worn out, and abused preacher. When I left the ministry I was still a believer. I thought that the problem was the churches I pastored or perhaps me personally. If I just found the right church to attend the ship could be righted and all would be well. For four years, visiting churches in five states, I looked for that one church that took Christianity seriously and practiced teachings of Jesus. After visiting over 125 churches, attending some of them for months, especially those in the community I lived in at the time, I came to the conclusion that no matter what the name was on the door every church was the same.

I came to see that whatever Christianity might have been  2,000 years ago, that Christianity no longer existed.

My Deconversion

My crisis of faith did not begin as a theological struggle. It began as I looked at the Christian Church and came to the conclusion that, for the most part, the Christian church was a meaningless social club. While I realized there were probably some exceptions out there somewhere, I didn’t find any.

In November of 2008, I attended my last church service. I finally came to the place where I could no longer embrace the meaninglessness and the indifference of the Christian Church. I did not want to waste one more moment of my time doing something that didn’t matter.

During the time from my last pastorate in 2003 until today, I have invested great time and effort in reinvestigating the Bible and the claims of the Christian Church. I’ve come to the conclusion that the Bible is not the inerrant, inspired word of God. At best, the Bible is a spiritual guide and a book of mythical stories written by unknown men thousands of years ago. It is not a book that is overly relevant to the world today. The stories make for great reading, but they offer little practical wisdom for moderns in the 21st-century. There is wisdom to be had from the Bible but it is certainly not a book that one can govern their life by.

I came to see that the Christian church’s attempt to prop up the Bible was a house of illusions. Instead of confronting the fallibility of the text and the many errors within that text, the Christian church instead developed convoluted and humorous explanations for the perceived errors and contradictions in the Bible. Explanations like….. inerrant in the originals.

Robert Price said that once a person stops believing that the Bible is the Word of God they are on a slippery slope where there is no natural stopping place. That’s where I found myself. For a time I was content to call myself a progressive, liberal Christian. As I continued to slide down the slippery slope I thought that maybe Universalism was the answer. And quite frankly, if I was going to have any religion at all it would be Universalism. But, at the end of the day, Universalism did not satisfy me and I came to a place where it was time to stop calling myself a Christian.

I believe the word Christian means something. In fact I believe it means something more than a lot of Christians I know. To be a Christian means you believe the Bible to be the Word of God. To be a Christian means you embrace the beliefs and teachings of the Christian faith. Since I do not believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and I no longer embrace the beliefs and teachings of the Christian faith,I am no longer a Christian.

My deconversion came at the moment when I finally admitted to myself that I no longer believed the Bible to be the word of God. As I have often said, It really is all about the Bible. I am thoroughly convinced that what Christians say about the Bible is not the truth.

Jesus? I do not believe Jesus was God, born of a virgin, or resurrected from the dead. He was a man who lived and died. End of story.

Questions?

Did you repent of your sins when you were saved?

Yes.

Were you filled with the Holy Spirit?

Yes.

Is it possible you never were a Christian?

No.

Is it possible you are still a Christian?

No.

Is there any evidence that someone  could show you that would convince you that the Bible is God’s Word and that Jesus really is who the Bible says he is?

No. I can’t think of any evidence I have not considered that would cause me to wonder if I am wrong about the Bible and who Jesus is.

Are you certain there is no God?

No.

Do think it is probable a God of some sort exists?

No.

What if you are wrong?

I don’t think I am.

But…what if…

I don’t play the what if game. I play the reason game. I base my beliefs about God, Christianity and the Bible, on a reasoned examination of the available evidence. This is all I can do.

I hope this post puts to rest whatever questions Evangelicals might have about my story. Accept what I have written, reject it or discount it, I have spoken. My name is Bruce.

For further information, please read the posts in the START HERE series or The Fundy World Tales.

Why Baptists Refuse to Believe I Once was a Christian

never_saved

My story poses a real problem for Baptists.  According to Baptist soteriology (doctrines pertaining to salvation) , once a person is saved, born again, becomes a Christian, they can never lose their salvation. This belief is called, once saved always saved, eternal security or the perseverance/preservation of the saints.

All Baptists, except Free-will Baptists, believe that once a person is saved they can do nothing to lose their salvation. John 10:28, 29 says:

And I (Jesus) give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

This is why some Baptists believe I am still saved. No matter what I do, Jesus will never disown me. No matter how much I blaspheme God, Jesus was never leave me or forsake me.

It is like getting  married without having any provision for divorce. Once married, you are married for life. No matter what the husband or wife does, be it adultery or physical abuse, their marriage can not be dissolved, Once married, always married.

So it is for me. No matter what  I say or do, I am still saved. God might chastise me or even kill me, but there is nothing I can do to get God to let me out of my eternal life contract.

Of course, this kind of thinking is silly and some Baptists realize this. They take a different approach to my life. Instead of once saved, always saved, they say, I never was saved.  According to them, I never really put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ. While I may have outwardly given evidence that I was saved, inwardly I knew that I really wasn’t.

They believe that I lived from the age of five through the age of fifty a life of deception. My becoming an atheist is proof to them that I never really was a Christian. In their mind, I always was an atheist.

In a post titled, The Logical Consequences of You Never were a Christian, I wrote:

People who believe a Christian can not fall from grace are forced to dismiss me as a life-long deceptive, servant of Satan. Basically, for 36 years I deceived every Christian, every church member,  every pastor, every Evangelist, every Christian college professor I came in contact with, and most of all I deceived my entire Christian family.

No one, over a span of 36 years, ever said “Bruce Gerencser is not a Christian.”  Think about this for a moment. Think of the deception necessary to pull this off.

  • I preached thousands of sermons…all preached in the power of the flesh.
  • I  prayed thousands of prayers, none of which were ever heard by God.
  • Hundreds of people who made professions of faith did so after hearing the preaching of a deceiver, a worker for Satan.
  • Hundreds of people who were baptized by me were baptized by a charlatan, a deceiver, a man who rejected the Baptismal vows confessed during a baptism.
  • I counseled hundreds of people over the years. Every person I counseled received counsel from a false prophet.
  • Every moment spent in private prayer, every moment spent in devoted study of the Word of God…….all the time spent in devotion to the living Christ was spent as a person no better than Judas.

Baptists are in bondage to their theology. To admit I once was a Christian means that their belief about eternal security is false. So, instead of admitting that people like me once were Christians, they search for defects in my story, and they exploit these defects to show I really never was saved. (as recent commenter Ross attempted to do)

Years ago, I was co-pastor of Community Baptist Church in Elmendorf, Texas. When we moved from Ohio to Texas, another family, Larry and Linda Johnson,  moved with us.

Every person joining the church had to give a credible testimony of faith in Jesus Christ. Larry  told his “salvation” story to  Pat Horner, my fellow pastor, and Pat became alarmed over what Larry told him. Larry used language to describe his faith that most people didn’t use. He talked more about God than he did Jesus. Pat took this as evidence  Larry might not really know Jesus.  I assured him this was not the case. Larry was a decent man who took matters of faith seriously.

So it is with some Baptists who read this blog. Instead of accepting my story at face value, they look for things in my story that don’t line up with their own experience and they conclude I never really was saved,

They go to great lengths to deconstruct my life, poking and prodding, looking for anything that will invalidate my claim of once being a Christian. And guess what, they always find what they are looking for. Take the recent commenter named Ross. The defect he thinks he found is that I never really repented. No matter what I say, he knows I never really repented and if I never repented I never was a Christian.

When a person is committed to upholding certain theological belief at all costs, they end up thinking and saying things that are silly. So it is when people say I never was saved. (or that I am still saved)

The only way we can judge the validity of a person’s life is by how they live. I told parishioners countless times over the years, we given evidence of faith in Christ by how we live not by what we say we believe. This fact seems to be forgotten by my critics. Look at my life as a Christian and as a pastor, What in my conduct and lifestyle remotely suggests I was not saved? If I wasn’t a Christian then it is fair to ask if anyone is.

Part of the problem is that I am willing to talk about my failures as a Christian and as a pastor.  I am willing to admit that I sinned, that I did things considered wrong by most Baptists. These confessions are taken as “proof” that I never was saved. Evidently, the perfection standard applies only to Jesus and Bruce Gerencser. None of the people I pastored or the men I considered colleagues in the ministry were perfect.  Because they are still professing Christian means they are judged by a different standard than I am.They are allowed to be sinful, yet saved, but I am not.

Thousands of people read this blog. Many readers are former Evangelicals. If I asked them what was the one thing that offended them the most they would likely say, Christians who dismiss my life saying I never was a Christian. Christians fail to see, or don’t care, how offensive such a line of thinking is.

Put the shoe on the other foot. Suppose atheists began going through a Christian’s life with a fine tooth comb, pointing out discrepancies or contradictions in their life story. Imagine being told, it is evident you never really were saved. I suspect they would be quite offended by such a statement.

I know that this post will do nothing to change the mind of people who think I never was saved.  Until they are willing to look beyond their theology and look at me as a human being, they will continue to make outlandish statements about my life.

Bruce, You Never Repented and That is Why You Never Were Saved

repentance

Just when I think I have answered every possible question people may have about my past,  someone finds another way to “prove” that I never was a Christian.

A commenter by the name of Ross left several comments on the Fundy World series of posts. He is certain that I never was a Christian, and that I spent  twenty-five years in the ministry living a lie.

In his latest bit of wisdom, Ross stated:

You state you made public professions, but you do not address the matter of repentance. From my perspective, I see an unsaved man who made a profession of faith a long time ago and tried to serve his god he created in his own mind. Your motivation wore off like the seed who had no root in himself. For years you probably watched God saved the ones you loved and preached to, but inside you could never get victory over your own depravity. Years of hardening your heart against the Holy Spirit turned your heart to bitterness and depression.

According to Ross, the real issue is I never repented. Now I know I will never convince an arrogant, self-righteous Fundamentalist like Ross that I did repent. People like Ross must find a defect in my story. How else to explain my life?

Since Ross is likely a Baptist, he believes that once saved, a person can never fall from grace. So, since it is quite evident to him that I am not a Christian, this means I never was a Christian. A year and a half ago, I wrote a post titled, The Logical Consequences of You Never Were a Christian about this line of thinking. Readers might find this post germane to this post and might want to read it.

The core issue for Ross is this: I made a profession of faith but since I didn’t mention repenting this means I never was saved.

Baptists have two views of repentance when it comes to salvation:

  • Repentance is a change of mind
  • Repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of conduct

Many Baptists believe that repentance is a change of mind; I was against Jesus and now I am for him and I was for sin and now I am against sin.  While they think that forsaking sin and living according to the teachings of the Bible is what every Christian should do, it is not required.  According to them, to require a change of conduct in order to be saved, is works salvation. This is the predominant view of Independent Fundamentalist Baptists and many Southern Baptists.

easy_believism

Some Baptists reject the change of mind only view of repentance. They call such a view, decisional regeneration or one, two, three, repeat after me salvation. Influenced by men like John MacArthur, who wrote a book titled The Gospel According to Jesus dealing with easy-believism and repentance being just a change of mind,these Baptists believe that true repentance requires not only a change of mind but a change of conduct.

According to them, when a person is saved, a person turns away from their sin and embraces a new life in Jesus Christ. The Bible says a saved person becomes a new creation in Christ and the old life of sin is set aside for a new life of following Christ.

Ross, and others like him, might be surprised to know that I believed and preached repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of conduct for most of my time in the ministry. I believed if a person is a Christian they will live like one and not living like a Christian is a sign a person is not saved.

I believed a true Christian has a desire to love God and keep his commandments. I believed Baptists like Jack Hyles and most everyone associated with the Sword of the Lord, preached a powerless, empty gospel that made people the sevenfold children of hell. Men like Bob Gray of Texas, who boast of thousands of people being saved without requiring a change of conduct, were perverting the grace of God.

I spent the first few years in the ministry trying to get everyone saved. I spent the remaining years trying to get them unsaved. The former was much easier than the latter. Baptist churches, along with most Evangelical churches, are filled with people who see Jesus as little more than fire insurance. They have little interest in following after Jesus and obeying his commands. They rarely witness, rarely pray, and the Bible they carry to church every Sunday is left in the back seat of the car, ready to be hauled out again the next Sunday.

I am of the opinion that if someone says they are a Christian then they should the take teachings of the Bible seriously and their life should show they are a follower of Jesus. If a person is not willing to do this they have no right to say, I am a Christian.

If true repentance is a change of mind and a change of conduct, then how does a person know if they have repented? Simple. By how they live their lives. Good works is the only standard true repentance can be judged by.

It is a general rule of mine that you can tell what a person thinks is important by how they live their lives. What does the person spend their time and money on? As Jesus said, where our treasure is, there will our heart be also.

Any objective person looking at my life as a Christian would conclude that I was a serious, devoted, committed follower of Jesus. Not one time, from the age of fifteen to age fifty, did anyone ever suggest I was not a Christian. How I lived my life was a shining example of what, or whom,  I considered important.

Yes, I sinned, like all Christians do. When I sinned, I would repent of my sin and vow to do better, The Bible says, If we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us of or sin and cleanse up from all unrighteousness. I spent countless hours pleading with God to cleanse me from sin, to fill me with the Holy Spirit, and help me live a life that was pleasing to him. Every day I failed and every day I got up and tried again.

Now I know what I have written about will not convince the Ross’s of the world. The fact that I am an atheist is proof to them that what I have written about is a lie. They can not wrap their mind around my “saved and now I am lost” story, so they find ways to invalidate my story.

These days, I don’t care what people think. I know what I know. My life, I lived it, end of story. While I no longer believe in God and I no longer think the Bible is a divine text, I do think if you are going to say, I am a Christian, then act like one. So far, most of the Christians who stop by this blog to bloviate are a flashing sign advertisement of the bankruptcy of the Christian religion.

Wishing It to be So Doesn’t Make it So

treatment_of_atheists
found at LOL Theists

An Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) Christian sent me an email the other day that said:

WILLIAM O'HARE (SP) REJECTED ATHEISMMadalyn Murray O'Hare was the outspoken atheist that succeeded in taking prayer out of the American school system. Ironically her Son, William, is now a Christian Evangelist.”O'Hare's son William (Now William Murray) announced his conversion to Christianity on Mother's Day in 1980 and became an outspoken evangelist for his new faith..” Madalyn Murray O'Hare“One of O'Hare's children, who has become a born-again Christian…said that he believed his mother may well have had a change of heart and “turned to Jesus” in the hours where she was waiting, bound and gagged, to be killed. ” Did Madalyn Murray O'Hare become a Christian?

I am not sure what point the email writer is trying to make. Yes, sometimes the children of atheists reject atheism and embrace religion. This DOES happen, however I suspect it is not that common. However, in the IFB church movement the email writer is part of, it is NOT uncommon for children raised in the movement to adopt a different form of religion or spirituality. Some even become atheists, agnostics, or humanists. (as thousands of people who read this blog can give testimony to)

I suspect the thought of Madalyn Murray O’Hair converting to Christianity before she died is quite validating to the email writer. However, wishing something to be so, doesn’t make it so.

I took the time to actually read the decade old news article referenced above. Does it report that O’Hair became a born-again Christian? You decide:

…One of O'Hair's children, who has become a born-again Christian, has spirited her remains away to a hidden grave with a preacher in attendance. He said that he believed his mother may well have had a change of heart and “turned to Jesus” in the hours where she was waiting, bound and gagged, to be killed……William O'Hair, who now lives in Washington and writes books including Let Us Pray: A Plea for Prayer in Our Schools and My Life Without God, arrived at the funeral home in Austin to collect his mother's, brother's and daughter's remains and to organise a ceremony with a Baptist pastor at a secret site.He has now issued a written statement about his decision. “It is with great trepidation that I write at all about this burial,” said the statement. He had not prayed for his mother's soul, he added. “The deceased person is in glory with God or in hell. Either way, prayer is fruitless.”But he speculated that his mother may have undergone a last-minute conversion after she had been tied up by her murderers. “That last day they were bound and gagged with duct tape, maybe unable to speak, able only to think. In those hours, did they have a change of heart and turn to Jesus? Only when we reach glory will we know.”…

So what do we have here? Nothing more than a born-again Christian son hoping his atheist mother got saved so she is not burning in hell right now.

There is NO evidence for saying Madalyn Murray O’Hair became a Christian in the last moments of her life.

Wishing it to be so doesn’t make it so.

 

Never Underestimate the Power of Jesus

Often, atheists and agnostics grossly underestimate the power of Jesus. I am sure that some of you are already thinking or saying out loud, Bruce, are you nuts? Have you renounced atheism and become a follower of Jesus again? We don’t underestimate the power of Jesus because he doesn’t exist. End of story!

But, he does exist and I think many atheists and agnostics forget this. In our desire to rid the world of the damaging effects of religion we often forget that Jesus is alive and well.

Now, the Jesus who is alive and well is not an actual, physical living human being and neither is he an actual, physical God or Son of God. The Jesus who was born in Bethlehem two thousand years ago is dead. The Jesus who, for thirty-three years, walked the roads of Palestine is dead. The Jesus spoken of in the Bible is dead. We know that dead people do not come back from the grave. We know that once a person is dead they stay dead. Jesus is dead and there is no chance that he is coming back from the dead.

But, Jesus is alive and well in the myths and beliefs of millions of Christians. In the mythical Jesus people find comfort, meaning, and hope. In the mythical Jesus people find what they think is lacking in their lives, and quite frankly atheists and agnostics don’t have anything to offer when it comes to what Jesus can offer a person.

But, Bruce, believing in Jesus is irrational. Believing in Jesus is as rational as believing in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. Totally correct, but this doesn’t matter.

When suffering and loss come our way, our rationality does not do us much good. When our lives are in a heap of ashes, knowing the proofs for God not existing does nothing to comfort us. When we are struggling to keep from drowning, the books written by Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris, provide no help. All our rational, well-thought-out arguments do little for us when we are at those moments in life where the most precious thing to us is our next breath.

In these times we look for comfort and hope. We look to those who love us and who are willing to do anything for us. In these times our intellectual prowess does not matter. What we desperately want and need is a hand to hold on to, someone who will tell is it is going to be all-right.

But, Bruce, shit happens and we are all going to die in the end. Atheists and agnostics don’t need sentimentality. Surely, we can face what comes our way with a rugged resolve, knowing we are right. Perhaps.

But is knowing we are right the most important thing? Is drawing our last breath knowing we were right about religion, God, Jesus, and the Bible really the grand objective?

Forget for a moment what you know about the Bible. Forget what you know about its teachings. If you were once a Christian, forget your experience in the church. Think for a moment about the essence of the Christian religion. What is the one thing that matters more than anything else?  What is the one thing that allows millions of people to live in a state of cognitive dissonance? What is the one thing that allows Christians to shut off all the criticisms of Christianity and allows them to continue believing?

One word…Jesus.

The mythical Jesus, the Jesus of legend, the Jesus that is preached in countless Christian churches all over the world, this Jesus is the one thing that matters above all else.

Why is this? What is it about Jesus that millions of people will abandon rational thinking for?  There is no proof for what the Bible teaches on most anything. Few of the events in the Bible have any historical proof. Why does Jesus have such power over people?

Jesus offers salvation. Jesus offers friendship, love and compassion. Countless drug addicts and alcoholics have abandoned their addictions because of Jesus. Gang members have forsaken their violent ways and thieves have turned to gainful means of employment all because of Jesus. Only the most hardheaded and blind among atheists and agnostics would deny the fact that, for millions of people, Jesus makes a qualitative difference in their life.

In Jesus, millions of people find meaning, purpose, and direction. In Jesus, they find the strength to suffer and to die. This Jesus promised to never leave them or forsake them and no matter how hard we try to show that Jesus is AWOL in the lives of Christians, they still believe he is that friend that sticks closer than a brother.

I am sure there is some psychological or neurological explanation for why this is so, but such explanations have little value. People believe what they believe and that is all that matters.

My wife’s parents are in their seventies. They are now on the short side of life and it is unlikely that both of them will still be living ten or fifteen years from now. When they die I will mourn their death. I love them dearly. I will grieve over the loss of two people I have known most of my adult life. Good people. Loving people. Caring people.  And yes, devout, fundamentalist Christians.

They believe that Jesus is with them through thick and thin. Jesus has been their constant guide for over fifty years. According to them, Jesus has worked countless miracles for them. To them, Jesus is as much a part of their lives as the air they breathe.

I could point out to them all the times that Jesus wasn’t there for them. Where was Jesus when they miscarried? Where was Jesus when their daughter was killed in a motorcycle accident? Their life is filled with examples where Jesus was nowhere to be found. He seems to always be around when they need a hundred dollars but nowhere to be found when faced with job loss and sickness. Yet, they still steadfastly believe.

Is it my place to expose their fraudulent Jesus? Is it my place to point out all the places that their friends Jesus was no friend at all? Perhaps I should buy them Bart Ehrman’s books for Christmas so they can know the truth about the Bible and Jesus?

Why would I want to do this? Would their life be better without Jesus?

I can’t think of any way their life would be better without Jesus. Their whole existence and being is invested in Jesus and they are trusting him to be there when they are dying and to carry them home to their reward in Heaven.

None of this is true BUT it doesn’t matter.

All that matters is what Jesus means to them and what value he adds to their lives. If this Jesus gives their lives meaning, purpose, and direction, I have no right to disabuse them of their beliefs.  If this Jesus gives them peace and comfort…who am I to take that away from them?

Sometimes, we as atheists and agnostics, in our zeal to rid the world of the evil of Christian fundamentalism, forget that most Christians are not theocrats trying to take over America. They have sincerely-held beliefs and, for them, Jesus adds value to their lives. Yes, we must battle Christian fundamentalists who want to turn American into a Christian theocracy. Yes, we must battle attempts to teach creationism as science in the public schools. Yes, we must battle attempts to codify Christian morals and ethics as the law of the land. We must battle any and all attempts to lessen the individual liberty we have to believe or not believe. But, beyond these things, it is not our place to rid the world of beliefs we think are silly or anti-intellectual.

We must remember, for those of us who are bloggers, that the Christians that come to our blogs to debate, evangelize, and attack are not typical Christians. Zealots deserve all that we give them and I have little tolerance for such people. But…I must never forget that most Christians are not like the zealots.  Most Christians are like my wife’s parents…who love Jesus and who want to live a good life.

All human beings want a life that has meaning and purpose. We want to be loved and we want to know our life mattered. In the end, we all die and we will soon be forgotten by all but those who loved us. Let’s be careful, in our zeal to rid the world of all the evils associated with religion, that we don’t lose those we love, that we don’t trade being right for those who will be there for us when we draw our last breath.

Life in the Fundamentalist Bubble

cartoon by the Naked Pastor

An anonymous commenter left the following comment on the Galatians 4 blog:

if the Bible is not truth; the Word of God – then NO ONE can be saved. If we do not believe the Bible, we cannot be saved.

The post this comment was left on was a post titled, The IFB Pastor Turned Atheist: Those Who Fall Away. This post is about my defection from Christianity. The author of the blog post agrees with the anonymous commenter’s view that if we do not believe the Bible we cannot be saved.

Here’s the problem with this view. First, it makes salvation dependent on reading the right words and believing the right things.

Second, the first century Christian church had no Bible.  They had the Old Testament, a text that makes no mention of Christian salvation, and oral traditions.

Third, the gospels were not written until decades after Jesus Christ died and resurrected from the dead. The writings of Paul were written first and they are quite sparse when it comes to Jesus and clearly articulating the Christian gospel. (Paul’s writings need the gospels for the Christian/Pauline gospel to make sense)

Fourth, the printing press was invented over 1500 years AFTER the death and resurrection of Jesus from the dead. What Bible did people read before the invention of the printing press?

Fifth, illiteracy and the cost of a printed Bible meant that most Christians did not own a copy of the Bible. They relied on others to read to them the Bible or to pass on the stories of Christianity orally.

Sixth, it took centuries for the canon of the Christian Bible to be completed. Prior to this, Christians had “incomplete” Bibles, often only reading or hearing a few books of the Bible.

The anonymous commenters does what a lot of Christians do…he takes how things are now and reads it back into Church history. You know…if the Oxford, Calf-Skinned KJV Scofield Bible was good enough for the Apostle Paul it is good enough for me.

The truth is many Christians have little knowledge of the long, complex, and contradictory history of the Bible and the Christian Church. This lack of historical knowledge allows them to make statements like the anonymous commenter made on the Galatians 4 blog.

The bigger problem is the way fundamentalists read the Bible. When they read the phrase “word of God” they assume it means “the Bible.”  This, however, is not the case.  Most of the instances in the Bible where we find the phrase “word of God” refers to spoken words or to Jesus Christ himself.

The phrase “word of God” appears 49 times in the Bible. As you can easily see, the phrase has several different meanings.

  • 1Samuel 9:27 And as they were going down to the end of the city, Samuel said to Saul, Bid the servant pass on before us, (and he passed on,) but stand thou still a while, that I may show thee the word of God.
  • 1Kings 12:22 But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying,
  • 1Chronicles17:3 And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,
  • Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
  • Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
  • Luke 3:2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
  • Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
  • Luke 5:1 And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret,
  • Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
  • Luke 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
  • Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
  • John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
  • Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
  • Acts 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
  • Acts 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
  • Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
  • Acts 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
  • Acts 12:24 But the word of God grew and multiplied.
  • Acts 13:5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.
  • Acts 13:7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
  • Acts 13:44 And the next Sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
  • Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
  • Acts 17:13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.
  • Acts 18:11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
  • Acts 19:20 So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.
  • Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
  • Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
  • 1Corinthians14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
  • 2Corithians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
  • 2Corinthians 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
  • Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
  • Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
  • 1Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
  • 1Timothy 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
  • 2Timothy 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
  • Titus 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
  • Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
  • Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
  • Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
    Hebrews 13:7  Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
  • 1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
  • 2Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
  • 1John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
  • Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
  • Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
  • Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
  • Revelation19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
  • Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The word Scripture appears 32 times in the Bible. Most of the time the word Scripture refers to the Old Testament, a text that is devoid of any mention of the Christian gospel.

The Bible states in John 1:1-2 that Jesus was the Word:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. (the rest of John 1 makes it clear that the Word  John 1:1-2 is speaking of is Jesus)

With this thought, that Jesus is the Word, in mind, let’s look at Hebrews 4:12-14:

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Raise your hand if you have heard Hebrews 4:12-13 quoted in reference to the Bible, the Word of God? Anyone raised in a Baptist church has heard this countless times. However…

With the thought that Jesus is the Word in mind…look closely at Hebrews 4:12-14. Is the word of God here the Bible or Jesus? Notice the male pronoun in the phrase manifest in HIS sight?

Verse 14 makes the “who” of the text very clear when it says, “Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God…”

The whole point of this exercise it to show that it is important to NOT read preconceived ideas and beliefs into the text. Pastors breed ignorance when they quote verses to “prove” a point rather than actually conveying to the congregation what the text actually says.

Another Day Another Judgment of My Past

Bought by the blood, redeemed, saved, sanctified, Holy Ghost filled, I know my salvation is real and my interpretation of the Bible is right, Christians frequently use what I write to “prove” their own rightness. By deconstructing my life and pointing out the errors and flaws in my life they self-righteously remind themselves that they are a true-blue, real deal, Christian.

Armed with an inerrant Bible, an infallible mind, and a God who whispers in their ear, they measure every word I write by their own beliefs and interpretations of the Bible. They arrogantly, without a doubt, KNOW they are r-i-g-h-t.

Today, the Galatians 4 blog is the newest critic of the life of former Christian pastor turned atheist Bruce Gerencser.

In a post titled, The IFB Pastor Turned Atheist: Those Who Fall Away, a blogger by the name of Bible Believer uses my writing to show the error of my past Christian life. His post is not overtly critical but there was a comment on the post that really got my attention.

An anonymous commenter wrote:

Well I am a Zionist, as I am certain the Bible teaches me to be so.

Regarding the other issues, this “former pastor” sounds like he was always angry. It sounds like he was working for salvation the entire time. He was trying to be good enough, discovered on the inside that he is not good enough (no one is), and just put on the “Christian clothing” to fool everyone. Got tired of it, and revealed what he was the whole time: an unbeliever.

Either Jesus gives eternal life based on what He has done, regardless of our future conduct and bad behavior. Or, you really do have to be “good enough” for salvation. But nobody can be “good enough”.

I am forgiven all sins past and future, even if I blow it horribly bad for the rest of my life, I will be in heaven. It doesn’t sound like he ever believed that. His acceptance of the lie of “lordship salvation” will take him to hell.

This comment can be summed up in a few words:

I am right, he is wrong, I am a “true” believer, and he never was, I am going to heaven and he is going to hell.

My Son Thinks I am Going to Hell

Guest post by August Stine

My Son Thinks I Am Going to Hell!

In spite of the fact I am a former fundamentalist Christian and ex-pastor, my minister son and his family think I am headed for Hell. This is my response to him. I use the pen name of August Stine to protect my son. It can be googled if you need more information about me.

Different Family Beliefs

Your faith is important to you.

My beliefs are important to me.

We pray to the same God every day

For me, He is the Caring Creator;

Who cares about my well being

To you, He is the fearful God

Who demands obedience.

I believe Jesus was a spiritual man but not God.

I believe Jesus said some great words of wisdom

And I am sorry he had to die on the cross.

You believe Jesus died for the sins of man

And his salvation is a gift from God.

I do not believe this, but let’s suppose I did.

Didn’t you say salvation was a gift?

If it is a gift, why do I need to do anything?

You say I am going to hell unless . . .

You even give me the words I should say—

“Jesus, forgive my sins.”

Do people go to hell for not saying these words?

What if I wait until just before dying and then ask?

What if I meant to ask Him for years but didn’t?

You say “Too late—you missed your chance!”

This is God we are talking about isn’t it?

Is God limited by time or death?

On the other hand, if salvation is a “gift,”

Do I really need to ask Him for forgiveness?

The Bible says God freely gives this gift.

Where did all these attached strings come from?

Why conditions on God’s unconditional love?

New converts are told their Christian duties.

Tithing is one—not too bad—it is do-able

Unless you are unemployed or on minimum wage.

But the heaviest of all these burdens is . . .

People go to hell unless we show them Jesus.

So their salvation is in our hands . . .

I thought salvation was a gift.

Why is this huge ugly rope attached to this gift?

Am I responsible for my neighbor’s salvation?

Why am I involved with another man’s salvation?

Why does God need Me?

Suppose I want to play golf on a nice day,

But my neighbor dies and goes to hell . . .

And it is my fault . . .

Because I did not tell him about Jesus.

Please don’t tell me

God is so awful and demanding.

Why am I involved in someone’s eternal choice?

I thought God loved me and my neighbor.

Because of His heavy guilt trip,

I can’t even play golf without God on my back

I cannot believe God dearly loves me . . .

But loads me down with guilt trips

About darn near everything I do.

If I truly am a child of God,

Why do I have to be afraid of Him?

Why can’t I enjoy God

And let Him fix the world?

I thought that was His job.

Scripture says God is with us always;

If so, “Come on God, let’s go play some golf.”