Just when I think I have heard every possible explanation for my past and present life, a Christian will cook up a new explanation that he believes properly explains my storyline. Unwilling to let me tell my own story — while demanding I accept their testimony of faith in a dead man named Jesus — these diviners of truth think they know me better than I know myself. Take Doug, who sent me an email that stated:
I just really stumbled on your site today . You r not an atheist or agnostic you and I both know that is not true . You just have become very bitter some where along the line. What triggered that only u know . The things u at one time believed u still believe . it is sad that u have taken the stand u have . The Bible states that it is possilble to even forget u have been saved by allowing bitterness to come n . U r n my prayers !
Let me summarize Doug’s divination of my mind:
- I am not an atheist and I know it.
- I am not an agnostic and I know it.
- I am a Christian who has become bitter.
- What triggered this bitterness, only I know.
- What I once believed, I still, deep down in my heart of hearts — down where the Holy Ghost is snoozing away — believe.
- I have forgotten that I am saved because I have allowed bitterness to come into my life.
Got all that?
First, Evangelicals such as Doug confuse directness with bitterness. I say what I mean, and mean what I say. There is nothing in my writing that suggests bitterness. Only Evangelicals who can’t square my life with their theology say I am bitter. Now if someone said I was angry or irritated, that would be different. Anger is a normal human emotion. I’ve learned to harness my anger and turn it into words and actions. I have found it is better to embrace my anger than pretend it does not exist or to think that being angry is a sin or weakness. But bitterness? Not a chance. Ask those who know me if I am bitter and they will tell you no. Being bitter is just not who I am.
Second, I am an atheist. Say that real, real s-l-o-w: Bruce Gerencser is an atheist. Shouldn’t I be the one to determine who and what I am? If I say I am an atheist and my beliefs and actions are consistent with atheism, shouldn’t my self-identification be taken at face value? Imagine me saying to Doug, You are not a Christian Doug, You know it, and I know it. Doug would be offended, as he well should be. If Doug says he is a Christian, then I should accept what he says, especially if his beliefs and actions are consistent with Christianity
Third, no I do not believe what I once believed. I don’t know how any person in his right or left mind can read my writing and conclude that I still believe what I once did. I had several belief changes as a Christian, so what beliefs specifically do I still believe? My beliefs in 1976 when I entered college were very different from my beliefs as a pastor in 1989, and my beliefs in 2003 when I pastored my last church were different from my beliefs in 1989. He who attempts to judge my beliefs at a certain point in time will likely be wrong. My beliefs continue, even today, to evolve and change. Old beliefs are challenged, corrected, or abandoned. New beliefs are embraced and believed until new evidence and knowledge force change. Even at the ripe old, curmudgeonly age of sixty-four, I still have the capacity to learn new things. New sex positions, for example. Learning them of course doesn’t mean I can do them. 🙂
One aspect of learning new things is the discarding of previous beliefs. I once was an Evangelical Christian. My theology was orthodox in every way. Today? I no longer believe in the existence of the Christian God. I no longer believe Jesus is God, nor do I believe he was virgin born and resurrected from the dead. Jesus was a man who lived and died two thousand years ago, end of story. I reject all the cardinal beliefs of Christianity, yet somehow, according to Doug I, still believe what I once believed. Pray tell, how is that so? Who better to know what I believe than yours truly?
Fourth, I have not forgotten I am saved. I know exactly when I was saved because I was there when Jesus saved me, and I know when I lost my salvation too, almost fourteen years ago. But Bruce, the Bible says once saved, always saved. Once Jesus saves you, you are forever his! What the Bible says is immaterial. After all, millions of Christians believe the exact opposite, that Christians can fall from grace, losing their salvation. Some Christians believe that once you have lost it you can never get it back. Regardless of how someone interprets the Bible and what soteriology they extract from its pages, shouldn’t I be the final arbiter on this side of the grave as to whether I am a Christian? Surely, it’s up to me to decide who and what I am.
So to all the Christian Dougs of the blogosphere, I say this: don’t think you can know me better than I know myself. You don’t. My wife of almost forty-four years knows me best, yet she doesn’t know everything about me. I see a counselor on a regular basis. She knows things about me that no one else knows. You know, things such as my secret desire to be a slinky, kinky crossdresser, complete with panties with the days of the week on them and red stiletto heels. Picture that in your mind, readers! 🙂 I wonder if published pictures of me in drag would change Doug’s mind about my s-a-l-v-a-t-i-o-n? If so, get ready Doug. High-resolution photographs are on their way!
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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I was going to say something sarcastic about Doug and his half-assed attempt at mind-reading, but I don’t think I have it in me anymore. This stuff just make me tired.
Doug, if you “really just stumble” back across this post, here’s a message: the world doesn’t work the way you think it does.
I was about to start eating my breakfast, then read your last sentence. Suddenly my appetite departed.
Btw, what colour makeup do you use?
I’m giggling to myself (brought on by mental pictures). 🙂
Doug, when will you and your kind realise that ‘I’ll pray for you’ means ab-sol-utely nothing, zero nada zilch? Ex-christians like us have been there and done that, nights of prayer, prayer chains, fasting and know what, thinking at the ceiling has achieved nothing…if your prayers are so effective, please get your god to end world hunger, wars and incurable disease – oh and stop those pesky hurricanes and tornadoes and floods that apparently teach us a lesson about something or other…
LOL, I spit out my ice cream! 😀
Dear Bruce… I can’t blame you for rejecting the kind of Christianity you grew up with and around. I would have too! That was one of the reasons that kept me from, even, giving it a look. You, obviously, have a heart for those who’ve been oppressed and, especially, wronged by the very faith that should love and care for “those that are weak and needy…” My heart goes out to you and your whole family. All of that kept me far from the REAL faith….until I was confronted with the REAL Savior Himself!! He’s not ANYTHING like how many “followers” portray Him! This Truth emerged slowly for me and I find myself at odds with many Christian views, so-called. But, I will stand before God one day to answer for MYSELF, apart from anything anyone else has done or done to me. All I know is that He LOVED me to the cross! I realized that I was reactionary to what was “out there.” I needed to be convinced of the TRUTH between me and Jesus! I hope the LORD woos you back to His REAL self and you get filled with His Peace, Joy and Love! This life is too short to live angry.
Uh, I considered your Jesus too. He is every Bit as dead as the other Jesuses. Sorry, your Jesus really ain’t that special.
Have you no decency, man? To commit such an atrocity on a perfectly innocent pair of panties goes beyond all bounds and leaves you at the outer limits, completely lost, ultimately forsaken. Horror of horrors!
Yeah, well, if you see Him, remind Him to drop by, would you? I mean, this Jesus guy… he doesn’t write, he doesn’t call… What’s a girl supposed to think? In fact, He behaves just as though… well, actually, He behaves just as though He weren’t actually out there. Seriously, worst boyfriend ever…
(If Jesus just up and vanishes from your relationship with him, does that mean you’ve been Holy Ghosted?)
More serious, less tongue-in-cheek: if there is a God out there, and if He’s anything like Christians portray him, then I too will stand before God one day to answer for myself. And my answer will be that I saw no indication of His presence and had no awareness of his existence. And if He is, as Christians generally claim, All-Knowing and All-Powerful, then He’ll understand that completely.
You seem to be well meaning. However, Bruce has the right to his anger, and how do you know his anger is ruling his life? You are not him. Also, my favorite question for people such as yourself. No one of your ilk has attempted to answer it. I dare you to try. Christianity almost drove me insane, I had a “Christian Counselor” tell my hubby and I that we were possessed for having mental illness, and in my case because I was a victim of a crime. Most Christians I have come into contact with have harmed me or my hubby. My husband lost everything due to the goodwill of his Christian relatives. He almost committed suicide because of how they treated him. I was brought back to sanity through the teachings of Buddha, and since my hubby and I have quit Christianity our mental health and quality of life have vastly improved. Since Jesus and his followers were disinclined to help me, but Buddha did, why wouldn’t I worship Buddha?
Dear Cindy Meyers,
You wrote:
My question for you. What happens if “the LORD” doesn’t woo Bruce back? Then what?
If Bruce continues to resist the Holy Spirit and reject God’s Way to heaven until his last breath, what does the Bible say will happen? We, either, believe the Bible or we don’t. It’s Bruce’s and everyone’s prerogative to believe what they want but there are real consequences to our choices. It’s all a matter of who we believe has the final say about what happens to us when we die. From what I can tell on this blog, I don’t see much difference between how commenters express their thoughts vs. how the “evil fundamentalists” express theirs. I believe that if I want to influence the world for good, I need to try to be the kind of change I want instead of pointing fingers at all the wrong-doers. I read a quote recently that said, “We change the world more, not by our opinions but, by our example.” I am SO sorry for all who have ever misrepresented the Christian faith (including me!) and caused you to hate it’s Leader. I so hope you all will take a deep breath and seek Jesus for yourself because He is nothing like you are portraying Him. There is so much tenderness about Him, especially, in the gospel of John, chapter 10, that speaks about Him as our Good Shepherd. Oh, please, give Him a chance and read it for yourselves!! Please!!
Uh, you think the readers of this blog have never read the Bible — John 10, in particular? Many of us were zealous followers of Jesus for years. We know the Bible, and we reject its teachings and claims. We don’t hate Jesus. We do, however, hate what is done in the dead man’s name.
I, too, want to influence the world for good. What better way to do good than drive a wooden stake through the heart of Evangelicalism.
I am not, in any way, resisting the Holy Spirit. He knows where I am and he can come speak to me any time, day or night. The Holy Spirit can even call, text, or email. I sure would love to hear from him, but, so far, all I hear is silence. Maybe, now that I am hard of hearing, I can’t hear the Holy Spirit’s still small voice. If this is the case, he needs to speak up.
It is the 21st century, yet we still have people who believe a mythical, invisible entity speaks to them in a voice only they can hear. In any other setting such thinking would result in a psych hold, but because the hearing of voices is religious in nature, people blindly accept it as true.
Some might. But, it’s not about them. It’s about you.
Hey, I’m good. I’m quite happy, with no fear of judgment or Hell. I plan to live until I die, end of story. There’s nothing in what you have written that would compel me in the least to return to the garlic and leeks of Egypt. Reason is my Moses and he had led to the Promised Land — - a land flowing with rational thought and freedom. Come join me, Cindy. You’ll be glad you did. Leave your idols behind and come into the light.
Dear Cindy Meyers,
I think you missed my point Cindy Meyers. You said you hope the Lord woos Bruce back? What if the Lord doesn’t woo Bruce back? You’ve put the responsibility in your Lord’s hands. It’s your Lord’s responsibility according to what you say here Cindy.
But then I notice a not so subtle shift in your response. You go from laying that responsibility on the Lord (hoping he’ll woo Bruce) to blaming Bruce for “resisting” the Holy Spirit.
What are those consequences you mentioned Cindy? What does your Bible say?
What does your Lord look like Cindy? What does your Bible say? What denomination does your Lord belong too? Is he non-denominational? Does it say he’s Catholic? Does it say he’s Protestant? Is he Greek Orthodox?
Do you attend church Cindy? Which church/denomination/sect do you attend? Are you a Christian but you don’t attend church? Maybe you attend a home church?
I see you are “at odds” with many Christian views. Which view is the correct view Cindy?
Hi Zoe! Thank-you for your thoughtful response! Denominations don’t mean much to me. My Christian life has been quite a journey, to be sure! It began after years of, kind of, a disgust with my own selfish, self-centered ways, actually…when I became aware of (long story!!) a “leading” in a different direction. I didn’t understand any of it as it was happening and I know it sounds weird but it really wasn’t anything I planned. Something just began to happen to my thought-life!! It led me to readings, to people, to places and, finally, to a personal encounter (when I was alone and questioning) with a presence that settled all my inner turmoil and convinced me that God did, truly, exist. The Jesus part took more personal wrestling. I was a dope smoking wife/mother of 3 at the time and wanted to be done with my sinful ways!! AA fits in there somewhere along with home church for the first 7 years and then church hopping until landing on my non-denominational church in my small, Maine town. Been a Christian for almost 30 years. Quite an interesting ride! Married for over 35 years. Hubby does not share my faith. But, he loves me and is happy to be my husband and father to our five children and 7 grandchildren. Our life is a happy one and he’s okay with me going to church. I don’t abuse this privilege!! Anyway, I wrote this because you sounded interested in my background. I will say that I found this site after clicking on Bruce’s name from the Wartburg Watch. Authentic Christianity is in “trouble” on many levels and I recognize that and appreciate Deb and Dee exposing what’s rotten. I don’t align smoothly with any one denominational framework of beliefs. I believe that if Jesus came back today, He would resist all attempts to fit Him into any human system. I’m not political and have no allegiance to a certain party just because..! But, am a lover of Truth! Ok…that’s enough of me. How ’bout you, Zoe?
I’m an atheist Cindy. A quick synopsis:
You still haven’t answered my questions. What happens to Bruce if the Lord doesn’t woo him back? What are the consequences?
“It’s Bruce’s and everyone’s prerogative to believe what they want but there are real consequences to our choices.”
I am (yet again) deeply puzzled by the idea that we “choose” what we believe (or disbelieve). Cindy, what makes you think belief is a choice? You believe God exists based on your personal experiences; could you, after He revealed himself to you, have “chosen” not to believe? Because I don’t think that’s how believing really works.
My experiences are different from yours, and as a result of them I have come to a different conclusion from your own (and I therefore have different beliefs). But that wasn’t something I chose; in fact, given the choice between a world in which eternal life in paradise was available for the asking, and a purely materialist world in which death is the end of consciousness and experience, I’d choose the first one any time. But the world that I see looks purely materialistic, and I can’t “choose” to believe otherwise – and even if I could, it wouldn’t change what kind of world we live in.
But, of course, if our beliefs are not a choice, then it seems monstrously unjust to suggest that we will be tormented eternally for failing to recognize the right answer. And that is what you appear to be suggesting.
I hear you, Mike. All I know is that for all the years that led up to my conversion, I resisted anyone telling me the gospel until that first day I believed. Did I do it or did God? Hebrews chapters 8 and 10 speak to my experience.. “For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind and write them in their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: and they shall not teach every man his neighbor and every man his brother, saying “know the Lord; for all shall know me from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more……” What happened to me was that His laws were in me and I knew I didn’t do it! To answer Zoe’s question, all I can say is that rejecting the love plan of Christ (how He woos us!) on the cross, the gospel, results in God rejecting us in heaven.
Dear Cindy,
What does God rejecting us in heaven look like Cindy? If God rejects us, then what?
I’m responding at this point in the thread because somehow I am being prevented (by technology) from answering further down.
“There is so much tenderness about Him” you write here and, further down, “all I can say is that rejecting the love plan of Christ (how he woos us!) on the cross, the gospel, results in God rejecting us in heaven.” And that’s partly what I’m getting at in my post below: your tone is that of a bully. There’s nothing tender about someone who would say “I love you so much, so very, very much, more than you can ever know, and if you reject me, God my Father will reject you in heaven”: those are the words of a manipulator and an abuser. (“Do and think as I say. . .or else!”). This approach (and I’ve come across it elsewhere, in quite a few other Christians, of various denominations) suggests a basic lack of respect (on your part, and theirs) for other people’s experiences. You want to persuade us that you are right, that the God you pray to is the God everybody should pray to, that the only right path is the one that you are on . .and when it starts to look as if some of us are NOT persuaded, then the threats begin. Genuine love NEVER involves “I’ll reject you if you don’t listen to me and go along 100% with what I am saying.” If this sort of approach were unique to you and maybe one or two others, I would simply assume it to be a personal failing, but I have encountered this angle so often among Christians, I can’t help feeling that it is embedded in the religion’s very fabric. (And, from the little I have experienced at close quarters, it seems to be an approach common in other faiths too.)
Oh, Rachel! I’m not writing with any harshness in my heart towards those who don’t embrace the Christian doctrine. I’m just stating what God the Creator of this world pronounces in the Bible over His own Creation and creatures. He made it and us. He decides what happens to it and us. He created it all purposefully! Doesn’t that make sense? We can challenge Him all we want but He WILL have the final say over our lives. My point is that He created everything out of Love and, when man chose his own way and evil was “born”, God’s Love sent His own Son into the midst of the evil to redeem those who would believe the message of His gospel (His rescue mission). So, why should anyone be mad that God would not allow unbelievers into heaven? They didn’t want Him or care about Him! They wouldn’t want to spend an eternity in a place where God (who is hated) will be forever! Many people I know who don’t believe, think that, either, there is no life after death or that hell is the place they’d rather be because all their friends will be there having a party! I know there’s so many beliefs out there and we each must determine what is ours but until I landed on Christ as my Savior after being gripped with my sinfulness, I was restless no more! I know, that’s just me! But, in this pluralistic world where your truth is your truth and my truth is my truth, “if everything can be true, then nothing can be true.” Truth, by it’s very nature, is exclusive.” It has to be. If my eyes are blue, they can’t be brown too. TRUTH matters, especially, when we stand before the God Who IS Truth one day. What/Who we believe matters, especially, when we take our final breath here on this earth (that HE created, btw!!)!! Dear Rachel..I am writing you with the utmost gentleness and respect! Please forgive me if I’ve hurt you in any way. I didn’t mean for that to happen. Truly!
Please stop preaching. Last warning.
You don’t really believe that each of us should find our own beliefs. Instead, everything else you write says we all need to embrace your beliefs — that which You have deemed the truth — under penalty of judgment and hell. You are trying, with your flowery, sickenly sweet words, to win people over to your version of God and Jesus, thinking that you are the proverbial pig that has found, buried in the manure, THE acorn.
Zoe: The longer you share Cindy the more you reveal and I do think you may not realize that you do “align smoothly” with someone’s denominational &/or non-denominational framework.
When you make a statement like Authentic Christianity is in “trouble” . . . you are making an absolute authoritative claim about what Christianity is or is not.
You are claiming you have the correct and only Christianity. You. You and others you agree with and “align smoothly” with. However, there are many other Christians who claim authentic Christianity that doesn’t look anything like yours. I suspect you will say they are not true/real/authentic Christians. I suspect they will say that you are not a true/real/authentic Christian.
Zoe: I believe there is no life after death.
I’ve never said I’d rather be with all my friends in hell and have a party. Naturally though, I no longer believe in hell (a topic you seem to be avoiding in answering my former questions earlier.)
Zoe: During my 48 years as a Christian I never once felt mad at God. I never once came to a place of not wanting him or caring about him. I never once hated God. Even as I continued my studies within Christianity and outside Christianity. As an atheist now you’ll never see me or hear me say I hate God, don’t care about him and can’t wait to party in hell.
I’m wondering about the number of people you know who don’t believe in life after death. Do you have a number or was that a general statement and it’s not so “many” but perhaps a few?
I know some people who do believe in life after death but it doesn’t resemble what you believe as they are not Christians. They are however, sincere and committed to their belief systems, whether those systems include deities or not. My former belief system told me all these people are going to be or are in hell. Is there an after-life? I don’t know. If there is, I don’t think it looks anything like what you seem to think your Bible says it is.
These people have too much time on their hands. I think we should publish a logic tract: Front page: Are you an evangelical Christian? Do you have difficulty with logical thought? Don’t worry we are here to help:) Inside: List of the rules of inference:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rules_of_inference Back: list of sites about logic and inconsistencies in the Bible. I wonder how many souls we could save from ignorance:)
Oh, Sarah, we can’t do that! So many Chrisitan heads would explode at the mere thought of using logic and reasoning, especially if they had to form a thought without quoting a Bible verse. And then we’d be left to clean up the mess.
/sarcasm
Seriously, that would be fun to write! And illustrate.
Thanks for haunting my nightmares with that last paragraph!! YIKKEESSS!! ?
I’m sending you a 13×19 photograph of me in drag for Christmas. I expect you to hang it over your bed. ?
Hahahahahahahaaa!!!
And just think, Steve – high resolution!!! Wheeee! 😉
Absolutely, only the best for my adoring fans. Wait until you see my pole dancing photos. Hot! ?
Jesusfuckingchrist!!
* She slaps the desk * 🙂
I’ve never wanted to be a Doug when it came to my positions, but I’ve wondered a similar thing coming from the toher way. I talk to people of faith and I just don’t know whether they are convinced of their positions.
I went and got a degree in theology eventually, but even after sitting and sharing thoughts with believers for years, I still don’t know. I wouldn’t tell them that, of course. If someone tells me they believe, that’s good enough for me. People have a lot of different reasons for sticking with their faith and some of its more farfetched tenets through thick and thin.
Bruce
Please drag up. That would be beyond awesome.
M
One thing I’ve noticed about the deconversion of fundamentalists (Bruce and Seth Andrews for example) is that the criteria for rejecting the faith is quite a bit different than someone like me that came from a liberal protestant background. This is not surprising, because a lot of core beliefs that are absorbed early in one’s life become the beliefs that are tested against reality. There is no surprise that fundamentalist beliefs fall to pieces much easier than other more liberal Christians. Liberal Christianity has already explained away by use of liberal interpretation and metaphor a lot of the problems for the fundamentalist. The fundamentalist will not typically reject just enough to become a liberal Christian. I attribute this to the fact that religion is typically indoctrinated at a young age. Fundamentalism is black and white and when childhood indoctrination goes “bye bye” the whole kit and caboodle goes with it.
Reading your (Bruce) writing I do see some of the old beliefs, shadows of the former self, in the means of rejecting theism. Principally I’ve noticed your criteria for what God should be (and isn’t) is quite a bit different then mine. I don’t reject God based on God not being perfect or not answering prayers, where I’ve noticed you do this to some degree. This isn’t a criticism, I merely find it interesting and just some of the signature signs that you can never completely eliminate some of the mind trap that is Christianity. Consider that the reason you enjoy writing about atheism and the reason I enjoy reading about it is that part of our psyche is still entangled in our old mindset and we feed off the affirmation of our new rational outlook.
Of course none of us are saved in the Christian sense, but I do take comfort and delight in being part of humanity, which will (hopefully) continue after we are gone.
I don’t disagree with anything you have said in this comment. My counselor talked to me this week about the archetypes each of us embrace, and how those change over time as we are exposed to new/different beliefs and experiences.
I do think that readers can pigeonhole me and not understand the complexities of my journey from the Independent Baptist Fundamentalism of my youth through generic Evangelicalism to a Progressive/liberal/emerging Christianity before I finally slid to the bottom of the hill and embraced atheism. So, if someone says, once a Fundamentalist, always a Fundamentalist, then I wholeheartedly disagree. Do I still have, at times, Fundamentalist tendencies? Sure. We are all products of our training and experiences. Writing for a blog that focuses on Evangelicalism ( an inherently Fundamentalist religion) does tend to limit or determine my focus.
OK, Bruce. I can see the kinky cross dresser, and maybe the red stiletto heels (be careful how you walk in them) and the panties with the days of the week (they come in some seriously large sizes now); but you lost me with “slinky.” I do see that as a problem. Pics or it didn’t happen.
I’d love to take/share photos. Polly is giving me the no chance in hell look. ? Last Christmas, I sent my children a picture of me with my Santa hat on. I thought they would love it! Unfortunately, me not having a shirt on was a problem for them. ?
Well, since you are saved anyway, why all the energy to pray for you, rather than for those who really need it (in case God – He who knows it all – didn’t realize those people could use some serious help, right – )?? And helping those people in real life would of course be the really good thing to do, but hey, if you can feel good by talking to “up there” and not doing any (hard) work down here, why tire yourself out…?
I do not need a picture of you for Christmas, or Easter, or my birthday, which is also on the day we celebrate another Saint over here in tiny Belgium, but thank you for giving us the material for smiles and nice comments. Hug to Polly, maybe she needs the prayers so you don’t go and spend money on weird underwear…
Kind regards!
Why pray for Bruce? I can only imagine the church cred one would get from converting such a high profile atheist. (Such a conversion would no doubt be short lived, though epic in the telling.)
OMG. Fuck off. This is my “nice comment”
The old passive-aggressive thing at work here. In my own experience, there are so many Christians who use this. Probably because they feel that showing “real” anger is sinful or, if not sinful, that it is “inappropriate” (i.e. the congregation won’t approve of it). They miss the fact that passive-aggression is every bit as real as any other kind of anger! It’s also dishonest, of course, and disingenuous, hiding in phrases like “You are in my prayers.”
I feel such people are really lacking in self-awareness. They are neurotic, feeling threatened that someone might hold a different world-view but, simultaneously, not able to ADMIT to themselves that they feel threatened. So they come out with preposterous comments like the ones Doug comes out with here. preposterous and arrogant: how dare he presume he knows better than you yourself do about your own life?!
The more I see of religious people (and I can immediately think of some exceptions) the more I feel that the whole thing is about infantilism, immature people who for this reason or that reason have just never grown up. (And who don’t want to.)
Great comment. It is hard for Fundamentalists to see as valid any other worldview but their own. People who see nuance, diversity, and shades of gray stop being Fundamentalists. For me, my Fundamentalist beliefs began to fall away the moment I admitted that Catholicism and other sects I had deemed heretical were every bit as Christian as Bruce Gerencser. The next to last church I pastored had a slogan on its front door that said, The Church Where the Only Label That Matters is Christian. It would be another decade before the last vestiges of my Evangelical religious/political beliefs fell away. I remember the pride I felt when a church member from my IFB days came to visit me at the last church I pastored and remarked that I had changed sides and was now the dreaded L word — a liberal.
The worst part is that some of these people expect everyone else to take them seriously and at their word for everything, but they refuse to extend that same courtesy to everyone else as soon as they find out that we don’t fit inside the used takeout box full of two week old moldy rice that is their worldview. No thanks
As for the photograph in question, It will be placed on the wall maybe in a low corner or hidden behind my tv?
Cindy,
I see that you feel an invisible entity somehow ‘bailed’ you out of your drug dependency. I’m not quite sure how you rationalize the fact that that same entity let you flounder along, making terrible choices for a long time, without interfering. What a nasty, hurtful thing for an all-seeing, all-knowing entity to do. (you know, the same one that decides little kids should get cancer, be abused, etc.) Oh, and the same one that is supposed to love you. 🙁
Here’s the way I see it: YOU took control of your life and decided to start making smart, healthy choices. Good for you!! That ‘voice’ you heard? It was your conscience – we all have them. Give yourself the credit, please. It’s the adult thing to do.
Dear Carmen! I have no blame of God for my self-centered lifestyle before becoming a Christian. I am only grateful that He stooped down and plucked me out of the pit of my own making! My Dad had this saying and he said it a lot…” they don’t know they don’t know!” That was ME!!! Until the “All-Knowing One” revealed what I did not know (or want to believe) about myself and how to be “fixed!” After I was, truly, converted, I could the hymn, “Amazing Grace” sincerely!! Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.
’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed!
Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.
“Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him….. We love God because He first loved us.” 1 John 4..
Please read the commenting rules. No sermons, preaching, or Bible verse quoting. You can safely assume readers/Bruce have heard/know whatever verse(s) you plan to quote.
Okay, Bruce. I didn’t read the rules first. I guess I got on the wrong blog. I apologize to you and to all the followers here. I just thought there might be an honest exchange of thoughts/beliefs going both ways without getting upset. I won’t bother anyone again.
Cindy,
Actually, the focus of this blog is to help Evangelicals who have doubts about Christianity or who have already left Christianity.
Many of the readers of this blog were once where you are. We were devoted, committed, on-fire, bought-by-the-blood, sanctified, Holy Ghost filled followers of Jesus Christ. We, at one time, had testimonies quite similar to yours. We faithfully attended church, studied the Bible, tithed, gave offerings, and prayed. We knew that salvation was by grace through faith, and not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. Like you, we prostrated ourselves before the thrice-holy God and gave him all the praise, honor, and glory. Many of us, myself included, were Christians for many years. In my case, I was part of the Christian church for 50 years. Some of us were even in the ministry. I was an Evangelical pastor for 25 years.
I said the above to educate you about WHO it is you are conversing with. We know your side of the discussion inside and out, having spent decades immersed in Evangelical theology. So, the goal for you, perhaps, should be to learn why people who were once like you are now atheists/agnostics/pagans/universalists/liberal Christians/humanists. We don’t need to be evangelized or preached at. We do, however, desire to be understood. We also desire to have Christians accept our story lines at face value — not telling us “you never were saved” or “you are backslidden, but still saved.”
No one is bothered or upset. A little annoyed, perhaps, but some of us have little tolerance people who hide behind flowery, syrupy words instead of just point-blank saying what it is they believe. It took Zoe three comments to extract from you that believe in a literal hell. In the future, be upfront about your beliefs. If you think atheists are going to hell because of their unbelief, say so. Believe me, we can take it.
I wish you well.
Bruce
Dear Cindy,
You were never a wretch.
Oh, you didn’t know me! And…I do believe in hell…the consequence for all who refuse to bow the knee and confess Jesus as Lord this side of heaven. It’s been great “talking” with you, Zoe. I’m going to sign off now. I’m sorry to have bothered you.
I know you believe in hell Cindy. I wondered why you avoided saying so. It is not uncommon for me to ask Christians about the threat of hell and watch them avoid answering it. I’ve always wondered why that is? Why not own it right up front?
You haven’t bothered me one bit Cindy. You are a human on this earth as I am. Is it 7+ billion now? And think of all those who came before and all those yet to be. I just can’t believe in your God who sends people to an eternal furnace for all eternity. I use to believe it Cindy. I don’t now.
Here’s what I do know Cindy. We’re human. So you were a wretch according to your current testimony. You find that Jesus changed you. Many people change with your Jesus and without your Jesus. Good, caring, loving, kind and compassionate people. I call it the human condition. Maybe you did need Jesus to change your behaviour but it is also true that there are dope smoking mothers who change their ways for the better without Jesus. If you need Jesus to be a better person, Jesus-away.
This has been an honest conversation as far as I’m concerned. I have no interest in de-evangelizing you at all. Most of us have been where you are Cindy. Saved, baptized, tithing, serving, Bible College, ministry, missionaries . . . real so-called authentic Christians. If anything I hope that maybe you might have learned something about those of us who have been there and done that.
You know, I can tell you’re very sincere. I remember being a sincere Christian and sincerely wanting everyone else to be saved. So I don’t feel offended. However, I do not identify as a Christian anymore. I don’t believe most of the Bible, either OT or NT, is historically proven. In fact, the evidence shown by scientists (archaeologists, geologists etc) is that most of the events written as “fact” before the Jews were in Babylon, point to them all being myth. And it is very interesting that most of these myths cross all kinds of cultures and religions.
But you have faith and believe! Do you know that unless you can prove it, no one is obligated to have your faith. I believe what others here are saying is that they can’t believe. And it isn’t because they want to sin and are angry at your god. Instead, they see reality and can’t tell themselves a mythical tale anymore.
I have some kind of faith/belief but I’m not a Christian, not anymore. Instead I’m a theistic agnostic, or is it agnostic theist? I don’t know if there is really a god, although I would like to believe it. Since I can’t prove it I don’t care if others believe. I do have personal faith experiences but I realize they are entirely inside of my head, so to speak. So I may feel I draw strength from my faith experience, and that is about it.
So while you may feel that you need to witness to a bunch of atheists, agnostics, non-Christian theists and the like, we feel disrespected. And when you say that your god loves us but then if we don’t believe in him, he can do whatever he wants to us…that isn’t love. That is classic abuse. A human who acted that way would be considered a horrible person, but it’s okay for your god? No thanks.
That’s it, Cindy. Just stop up your ears and repeat mantras mindlessly. Did you read what I wrote?? YOU SAVED YOURSELF. Take the credit. Quit giving it to an invisible whatever. .. I’m sure it impresses other people with the same mindset as yourself, but you sound like an automaton parroting well-rehearsed lines. You’ve obviously buried your head in the sand and prefer self-delusion to sensible logic. 🙁
Cindy, I post here because I’m not getting the “Reply” thing next to your comments.
You’re mistaken to think I’m hurt by what you say. I’m not hurt; I simply find what you are writing childish. Basically, you’re saying: “I have been saved, I take the Bible literally, therefore I will get into heaven when the time comes. While other people, everyone who doesn’t take the Bible literally, will NOT get into heaven, they will be turned away at the gates.” It’s such an infantile view of life, this idea that you’ll get a nice reward for being a Goody-Two-Shoes. And Bruce is right, you are wrapping it up in flowery and sugary language but, at base, it’s toxic. I’ve heard it all before, so please don’t “explain” everything to me as if I am ignorant.
I’m sorry for getting on this blog. Going to heaven will never be based on any good I’ve done. I could never be good enough. I’m not going to write here any more.
I could never understand how Christians could be okay with a god that burned the wicked forever. The denomination that I belonged to at least believed that nonbelievers just died.
In the end, though, I still don’t know how Christians can believe in a god that punishes frail, screwed up people for eternity. Which is why I can’t believe in such a god. The concept doesn’t make sense unless you don’t believe that love is really important.
It is for the reasons you mention that many Christians try to hide their belief about hell. They know it makes God look like a mean, vindictive son-of-a-bitch, so they cover hell over with flowery, syrupy words, and only when pushed into a corner do they reveal that their God,the Christian God, will, indeed, torture in the flames of hell for eternity all non-Christians. Even if this God existed, I wouldn’t want to worship him.
Exactly. I was thinking the same as “I wouldn’t want to worship him.” But Christians have to brainwash themselves that their god is love, blah blah blah. Somehow they don’t see the LACK of love obvious to the rest of us.
To add to Zoe’s comment, Cindy. There’s no such thing as ‘sinfulness’. We all make mistakes – it’s part of being human. It’s choosing to stop making them that earmarks us as human beings who use our brains — there’s no magic. Embrace sense; it’s attainable for all.
“Even if this God existed, I wouldn’t want to worship him.”
Neither should Cindy. Indoctrination and brainwashing are powerful forces, though. 🙁 (in other words, it’s a mindf*ck)
Yes. I have a a fifty year certificate to prove it, and even now I still have to unwrap my mind from a lifetime of Evangelical beliefs/practices/thinking. I am grateful for a counselor who helps me unpeel the onion of my life, one layer at a time. 🙂
Bruce, you have a loyal and appreciative audience who learn much from the things you reveal. (even if some of it is titillating) 🙂
Cindy, you said you don’t plan to write here anymore, and I think that’s probably for the better; I honestly don’t see how any good comes of it. But if you do happen back by to read, I did want to add a couple of more thoughts:
You wrote, “I hear you, Mike. All I know is that for all the years that led up to my conversion, I resisted anyone telling me the gospel until that first day I believed.”
That’s perfectly understandable, but that isn’t my experience and it isn’t the experience of most of us here. I didn’t resist; I grew up in a loving, tolerant version of Christianity. I grew up believing; it was part of my world. Water was wet, the sky was blue, and Jesus died for our sins. Then, around age 12-14 (it was a process) the whole thing started making less and less sense to me, until I finally just gave up on it. I’ve been an unbeliever ever since.
So I’m not going to tell you that your experience wasn’t what it was; but I am going to tell you that you’re making a mistake when you assume that our experiences must be anything like yours. I’m not resisting the Gospel. I spent years trying to understand it, trying to see what I was missing. I’m very well acquainted with the Bible, and many of the folks here know it even better than I do.
You then wrote, “Did I do it or did God? … What happened to me was that His laws were in me and I knew I didn’t do it!”
Reading that, it sounds like God did something to you, and you accepted that He had done it. Again, I have no problem with that; but it’s utterly useless to the rest of us. Because my problem is not that I reject God. I simply don’t think there’s any such entity out there. I’m not “denying” him or “rejecting” him, because I honestly don’t perceive him. I genuinely and sincerely believe that the world around us, and we ourselves, are the result of impersonal natural processes.
So when you say, “…Rejecting the love plan of Christ (how He woos us!) on the cross, the gospel, results in God rejecting us in heaven,” well… all I can say is that it sounds like you think God is going to condemn us to eternal torment for something that you keep labeling as a “choice” even though none of the rest of us perceive it as a matter of volition, decision, or choice.
Now, A) if that’s actually the case, I repeat my assertion that such behavior is monstrously out of keeping with the character of an all-knowing and all-loving God; and B) part of the reason you keep getting these irritated reactions is that you keep insisting that we’ll be punished for our choice without listening when everyone else here points out that it wasn’t a choice (even, apparently, for you!).
I don’t think you actually intended to give offense — quite the opposite, I expect — but that kind of thing does get offensive (not to mention unbelievably tiresome) very quickly. If you’re interested in some suggestions on how better to interact with former Christians and other unbelievers, I wrote a series of posts on the topic a couple of years back; I invite you to come and read them.
Okay, Mike. I will check out your posts. Thank you for responding so kindly. Truthfully, I’m bewildered with some of the responses on this blog. I’m scared for myself that, if someone can be a Christian for 50 years and a Pastor for 25 no less, the possibility for ME to walk away is very real. I am aware of the gross atrocities and hypocrisies occurring in some churches (articles on this blog and others are cases in point) and I’m aware of my own tendencies towards hypocrisy but it’s my hope that my faith will remain til the end. I don’t want what others do (in the name of Christ or self) to affect whether I believe in God or not. I am curious, though, what the “final straw” was for those who left the Christian faith. I, truly, want to understand this. Thank you, Mike, for sharing your story.
For me, it came down to the Bible not being the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God. From there, I throughly and painfully reinvestigated the claims of Christianity and concluded they could not be rationally sustained. The books written by Bart Ehrman were extremely helpful.
I will leave it to others to tell their own stories. No two stories are the same, but I agree with Michael Mock when he says Christianity doesn’t make any sense. The central claims of Christianity require a suspension of skepticism, reason, and intellectual inquiry — substituting faith in their place. Take the resurrection of Jesus/Lazarus. What does the evidence tell us? That dead people stay dead, that no dead person has ever come back to life. Thousands of years of human history, complete with uncounted examples of this claim bring true, yet Christians continue to believe that Jesus magically resurrected from the dead and later ascended to heaven. I take the same approach with Jesus’ miracles, his mother not having sex with a man, yet giving birth to a child, along with a number of other beyond rational belief claims found in the Bible.
Re: “I am curious, though, what the “final straw” was for those who left the Christian faith. I, truly, want to understand this. ”
For many, it comes down to the Bible not being the inerrant book many claim it is. If you’re serious about understanding, I’d suggest reading Bart Erhman, a new testament scholar, who’s written a number of books explaining the inconsistencies in the Bible. (Somewhere there’s a link on Bruce’s blog here, so if you buy Erhman’s books from Amazon Bruce will get a little kickback.) There are also some videos on youtube of his speeches that you can watch.
For example, are you aware that of the 4 gospels, one talks about Jesus going into egypt after birth, but never mentions a census or being born in a manger. another of the gospels talks about a census and the manger as the reason for being in Bethlehem, but never mentions egypt or the slaughter of the innocents. trying to make a timeline where both of the gospels is true requires quite a bit of pretzel logic. most reasonable people come to the conclusion that these are stories, not “facts.” Some then become more liberal christians and dispense with inerrancy, and others become agnostic or atheist.
there are also discrepancies around jesus’ tomb. one of the gospels says only women where there, and they ran away and told no one. another gospels names different people at the tomb. some of them say the stone had to be moved away, another says the stone had already been moved. one mentions an angel at the tomb, another does not.
an the earliest extant copy of one of the gospels (mark?) ends at the tomb being empty, and it was later copies that added additional text to the story.
Many/most of the commenters here on bruce’s blog are aware of some/most of these issues. Erhman is a great source for getting it all in a consolidated package. usually we find that most fundamentalists who visit bruce’s blog are not even aware of the issues.
So if what you believe is “truth”, it should not be impacted by reading Erhman at all. And what he writes is just about the Bible and what scholars know about it. (ie, nothing about church hypocrisy.)
there are about 4-6 erhman books, and i can’t recall which order he wrote them in, or which one would be the best to read first, but perhaps bruce or someone else can chime in.
also, there’s a lawyer, dagoods, who’s a great writer and has written a long but interesting story about his deconversion. again, it was due to investigating the claim that the bible is inerrant that lead to his deconversion. if you’re interested, someone can give you a link, altho i’d suggest the erhman books, as that is the substance of the issues of inerrancy.
I’d be happy to provide that link sgl.
DagoodS no longer actively blogs but he has left his blog public for those interested. His deconversion story has 13 chapters to it.
The link can be found here -> http://sandwichesforsale.blogspot.ca/2007/09/my-deconversion-story-in-which-we-test.html
Thank-you!
Thank-you, Sgl
You’re not reading comments, Cindy. Or else you’re simply closing your mind to their responses. Here’s one reason for leaving –
” My deconversion came later after many many years of studying the Bible, Christian apologetics, cults and spiritual abuse. When I realized that the Bible is not the inerrant Word of God, the only honest thing I could do was to stop calling myself a Christian”
Here’s another:
“More serious, less tongue-in-cheek: if there is a God out there, and if He’s anything like Christians portray him, then I too will stand before God one day to answer for myself. And my answer will be that I saw no indication of His presence and had no awareness of his existence. And if He is, as Christians generally claim, All-Knowing and All-Powerful, then He’ll understand that completely”
And another:
“My experiences are different from yours, and as a result of them I have come to a different conclusion from your own (and I therefore have different beliefs). But that wasn’t something I chose; in fact, given the choice between a world in which eternal life in paradise was available for the asking, and a purely materialist world in which death is the end of consciousness and experience, I’d choose the first one any time. But the world that I see looks purely materialistic, and I can’t “choose” to believe otherwise – and even if I could, it wouldn’t change what kind of world we live in.”
Many of us were where you once are, Cindy. We read, studied, really THOUGHT and came to embrace reality versus make-believe. It doesn’t matter what the ‘final straw’ was – and in many cases there wasn’t one – the end result was the same for each of us. Logic dictates that we believe in reality. It’s that simple. Besides, you don’t need an invisible friend to navigate life. You have the ability to do whatever you choose with the strengths you already have.
Dear Bruce, atheist or not, that is the question 🙂 Won’t know the answer for another 20 or thirty years – or ten minutes from now.
Oh, I know I won’t know because I’ll be dead, and some day so will you. And that’s where everything ends. The evidence tells us dead people stay dead permanently — much like Jesus 2,000 years ago. Eternal life is a long con, thousands of years in the making. No one has ever proved its existence, yet generation after generation continues the lie. Why? Because most humans desperately want there to be more to life than the here and now. There’s not, and people who waste their time pining for Beulah Land, Glory, or the Sweet By and By are burning daylight, wasting the only life they will ever have.
But hey, what do I know. I might be one of those “fake” deconversion stories you talk about on your blog.
Perhaps Sue is one of those “fake” Christians.
Bruce—Your secret is safe with me!😉
Reading through these older comments sure was something! It’s interesting how Christians have (for the most part) the same Bible but can have vastly different theologies.
“Once saved always saved” vs “you can lose your salvation if x, y, z”
“People are led by the Holy Spirit” vs “you just need to believe and make a profession of faith”
“God loves you and wants the best for you” vs “you are a vile creature because of Original Sin and so bad that just for existing God cannot look at you and will send you to suffer eternal physical and conscious torment in hell unless x, y, z”
And yet again, another evangelical who will not listen to Bruce telling his own story because they, the all-knowing evangelical, know more about Bruce than Bruce does himself
Your first mistake was thinking I give a shit about what you think. I don’t.