Have you ever read or studied non-canonical texts such as The Gospel of Thomas, the Didache, The Shepherd of Hermas?
What is your thought on alternative universe Christianity, for lack of a better term? I mean how things might have turned out had some or all of these books had been included in canon, or if say the Reformation had never happened or the Pope had listened to Martin Luther, etc.
I have perused some of the non-canonical texts, but I wouldn’t say I have studied them as I have the Protestant Christian Bible. For reference, I have Dr. Bart Ehrman’s book, The Apocryphal Gospels: Text and Translations.
The non-canonical texts tell me one thing for sure: numerous Christianities were floating around during the first few centuries of the church. This process continues to this day. Certainly, Christianity would have looked different had non-canonical books been added to the canon, the Reformation never happened, or Martin Luther had succeeded in reforming Catholicism. Better? Worse? We will never know. All we have is Christianity as it presently exists. I am confident that Christianity will be very different in 2100 — if the Earth has not been destroyed. Secularism, postmodernism, and science will continue to have their way with Christianity. It will be up to our grandchildren and great-grandchildren to determine whether this is good.
Nothing in the non-canonical texts that I have read has changed my mind about the existence of God or the supernaturality of Jesus.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
By John MacFarlane, pastor of First Baptist Church, Bryan, Ohio, Truth? or TRUTH!
Though worldly ideas and “truths” may change, the truth of God’s Word never changes. For the truth of God’s Word to change, God would have to change. His nature would have to change and that’s never going to happen.
….
God tells us in Malachi 3:6, “For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.” Since His attributes and nature never change, God is ALWAYS truth, therefore, His WORD is always truth and that truth “endureth forever.” (Psalm 117:2)
There will never come a time where better or more current information will rectify some previous Biblical error. What God’s Word taught 2,000 years ago will be the same, valid truths needing to be taught 2,000 years from now, should the Lord tarry.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Smart is a person who does not read social media comments. Alas, I am not too smart, it seems. I have given numerous interviews over the past two years. You can watch one or more of them here. Lots of people comment on these videos. Many of the comments are complimentary. Others are personal attacks. On occasion, viewers will complain about me hesitating too often or saying “You know.” They suggest I am either a terrible speaker or that my interviews are unwatchable.
Do I pause too often or say “you know” too much? Yep, but there’s nothing I can do about it. I am sixty-seven years old. I have osteoarthritis, fibromyalgia, degenerative spine diseases, gastroparesis, and exocrine pancreatic insufficiency — all incurable and debilitating. Last Friday, I had yet another MRI, this time on my lower back. Currently, I am in so much pain in my neck and spine that I am unable to walk longer than short distances (“short” meaning walking from the living room to the bathroom). I suspect that my latest MRI will show more disc and spine damage. I live every day with excruciating pain, so much so that there are days I want to kill myself. I don’t have pain-free days; only bad days, less bad days, and fucking I-want-to-stab-myself-in-the-head-with-an-ice-pick days. Before judging and condemning me, I wish people would walk in my shoes or at the very least consider what a challenge it is to live with pain from the top of your head to the bottom of your feet. I am not whining or complaining. I have accepted that this is the way it is for me; that this is my new normal. I went to granddaughter number two’s graduation on Sunday. Two days before, I had my MRI in Auburn, Indiana, and then we drove to Attica Raceway Park to watch 410 sprints, 305 sprints, and late models dirt track race. I knew that doing these things would extract a heavy price from me. At the graduation, someone said she was surprised I was there. Polly laughed and said, “He wouldn’t miss this for the world.” And I wouldn’t, even if I had to crawl up the steps to the stands. If that were the last thing I did in life, so be it.
Chronic, unrelenting pain has affected every aspect of my life. And I mean EVERY. Thus, when it comes to giving interviews, I don’t, all of a sudden, become pain-free. Typically, when I sit for an interview, I take extra narcotic pain meds and muscle relaxers. I don’t take cannabis because it negatively affects my thinking abilities. I only take cannabis after I am done writing for the day.
When I talk during an interview, pain affects my ability to speak. So, I often pause or say “you know” to manage my pain. I am well aware that my interviews would be better without this glitch, but there’s nothing I can do about it. Most viewers don’t have a problem with this. Those who do might be better served if they don’t listen to my interviews. I am doing all I can do to give thoughtful, engaging interviews. That hundreds of thousands of people have listened to them suggests that they resonate with people — speech impediments and all.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Revival Fires is like an incurable rash. It comes and goes, but never completely goes away. All I can do is apply the ointment of reason and common sense, hoping that the rash will recede. Revival Fires has been commenting on this site for several years. He also sends me emails and social media messages. I have repeatedly reported Revival Fires to Facebook — without success. He routinely violates Facebook’s terms of service, using fake email addresses and fake names to set up new accounts so he can harass me.
Lately, Revival Fires is using the “John Younger” moniker. He left numerous comments on my business Facebook page. In the past, he has contacted my partner, Polly, our children, and even their friends. In particular, he continues to harass my youngest son’s transgender friend.
Yesterday, Revival Fires sent me the following message:
Much like Dr. David Tee and countless other apologists, Revival Fires arrogantly thinks that beliefs=truth; particularly that his personal beliefs are the same as “truth.” This, of course, is patently untrue. Just because we believe something doesn’t mean it’s true. Consider all the things MAGA devotees believe about Donald Trump. Are their beliefs true? No, yet Trump’s followers are certain he is the greatest president in the history of the United States. Factually, he is not. I saw similar behavior in the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) church movement when it came to Jack Hyles, then pastor of First Baptist Church in Hammond, Indiana. The evidence (the truth) against Hyles was overwhelming, yet, even today, years after his death, some people believe Hyles was the greatest preacher since the Apostle Paul. (Please see The Legacy of IFB Pastor Jack Hyles.)
Revival Fires says that I am not interested in the truth. Of course, when he uses the word “truth,” he is referring to his personal beliefs. He thinks that people who are sincerely interested in truth will believe as he does. I am sure you have noticed this same attitude with Dr. David Tee. He’s not interested in honest debate and discussion. God gave him the words to say in his post on this site, so everything he wrote is “truth.” Anyone who disagrees agrees with him isn’t interested in knowing the truth.
In John 18, Pilate said to Jesus, “What is truth”? That’s a good question. Revival Fires, Dr. David Tee, and other apologists believe that the Bible, from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21, is truth; that the Bible is divinely inspired, inerrant, and infallible. There are books and then there’s the Bible. It is different and superior to ALL the books ever written.
While the Bible does contain truth, to suggest that it is the sum of truth, perfect in all that it says, is absurd. The standard definition of the word truth is “that which comports with reality.” Does everything the Bible says comport with reality? Only a rabid Fundamentalist would say yes.
Let me be clear, as a skeptic, humanist, and atheist, I am deeply committed to truth. I want to believe as many true things as possible. One of the reasons I left Christianity is because its teachings did not comport with reality. I weighed the central claims of Christianity in the balance and found them wanting. I am more than willing to confess my faith in Christ and follow him. All I ask for is sufficient empirical evidence for core Christian beliefs. I am willing to follow the path wherever it leads. The journey is what matters to me, not the destination.
I am confident that I have carefully and satisfactorily examined the claims Evangelicals make for the existence of the Christian God and the veracity of the Bible. I find these claims lacking. Until apologists come up with new or better arguments, I see no reason to pay them a moment’s notice. I am open to truth Christians, but not the shallow, irrational, contradictory truth you are currently peddling.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Yesterday, my partner, Polly, and I attended granddaughter number two’s graduation from Defiance High School. What a wonderful day! It seems like yesterday she was a preschooler running around our backyard, and today she’s a high school graduate and enrolled at Miami University in Oxford, Ohio to study business. Count me as one proud grandfather. Granddaughter number three graduated from Toledo Whitmer High School last week. She’s headed off to Ohio State University in the fall to study medicine (psychiatry). I couldn’t be prouder. In three generations, the Gerencser family has gone from me being the first person to attend college to our grandchildren excelling in their studies and going off to college. Over the next five years, five more of our grandchildren will graduate. Most of them, I suspect, will go on to college (not that this is their only path in life). With all my health problems, I feared I wouldn’t see any of my grandchildren graduate, so I am grateful to science and luck that I have been able to do so.
We live in an area dominated by conservative Christianity and Republican politics. It is common to observe and experience the separation of church and state being trampled underfoot, as was the case when John Schlicher, pastor of St. Paul’s United Methodist Church (an insecure site lacking HTTPS) in Defiance, gave a sermonette to the graduates, school staff, and those gathered to celebrate their family member’s graduation.
Schlicher assumed several things: either everyone was already a Christian or some of those in attendance needed to hear the truth about Jesus. I suspect he assumed both, thinking unsaved attendees such as my family needed to hear about the J-O-Y found in the dead Jesus.
If you were raised in Evangelicalism as Polly and I were, you have heard the J-O-Y acronym countless time: Jesus first, Others second, Yourself last. After spending fifty years as an Evangelical and twenty-five of those years as a pastor, I concluded that the J-O-Y acronym actually meant: Jesus first, Others second, You don’t matter.
For Evangelicals, Jesus is the end-all, the sum of all existence. A full, happy, productive life begins and ends with him. Only one life, twill soon be past, only what’s done for Christ will last, the ditty goes. This, of course, is patently untrue. Unbelievers, atheists, agnostics, pagans, and other non-Christians have done a plethora of life-transcending things — all without acknowledging or believing in Jesus. I know for myself that I choose to give credit to whom credit is due. When Polly cooks fine meal, who should I credit? Jesus, or the person who actually made the meal? When a doctor successfully treats me, who should I praise? Jesus, or the doctor who actually did my surgery or developed a successful course of treatment? I will gladly give Jesus credit for whatever he has done for me, but after a careful, painful examination of my life as a Christian, I concluded that the Son of God had nothing to do with my life. I searched in vain to find one answer to prayer that can ONLY be attributed to Jesus. And if you say that you KNOW Jesus answered your prayers or performed a miracle for you, I want to see empirical evidence for your claim before I believe you. Just saying “Jesus answered my prayer” doesn’t make it so.
After graduation, I had a short conversation with my oldest grandson. He just turned sixteen and got his driver’s license. Now there’s a reason to believe in the power of prayer! 🙂 My grandson, a skeptic in the making and a science geek, found Pastor Schlicher’s sermonette irritating. Evangelicals will say his irritation was Holy Ghost conviction, but it is more likely that my grandson found the pastor’s sermonette offensive and irrational.
We talked about the J-O-Y acronym for a bit, and then I shared with them that the acronym should actually be YO — yourself first, and others second. A proper understanding of life begins with a healthy understanding of “self.” Evangelicalism, of course, teaches the opposite: deny self, deny the flesh. Instead of promoting self-esteem, Evangelical preachers tell believers and unbelievers alike that they are broken, sinful people; that without Jesus their lives are meaningless, lacking purpose and direction. Even Christians are told that without Jesus they are no better off than unbelievers; that Jesus stands between them and the pit of Hell (the foundation of substitutionary atonement).
“Others” are certainly important, and I hope my grandchildren will not only have a healthy view of self, but also compassion for others. Focusing on self alone can and does lead to narcissism, but one can have love and compassion for others without Jesus. Jesus is not a prerequisite for being a good person. I don’t need Jesus/God/Christianity to treat others as I would want to be treated. We need to look no further than how Evangelicals often treat others. Where is Jesus in their behavior? By far, the nastiest people I have ever met were card-carrying followers of Jesus. Such hypocrisy is common, one of the primary reasons some people deconvert.
YO — the acroymn for skeptics, humanists, atheists, agnostics, and other non-believers. I like it! 🙂
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
David Tee/Derrick Thomas Thiessen is the tall man in the back
Derrick Thiessen (who sometimes uses the pseudonym Dr. David Tee) is a retired preacher, English teacher, and currently works as a freelance writer. He has several graduate degrees in theology, archaeology and history and has authored several books.
As a believer, we desire to win as many people to Christ as possible. Our specific ministry has been to bring Christians past square one to spiritual maturity. We have accomplished that through our two websites and books.
We have also sought to help pastors, missionaries, and Christian workers through the same avenue. Christians of all levels must be fed the proper spiritual food. They need to strengthen their faith and have the right information to defend what they believe.
Those actions are not a waste of time. But is it a waste of time and energy to prepare data, verifiable and credible physical evidence, and other historical, astronomical, and scientific information and present it to most unbelievers, atheists, and former Christians?
Why go to all that work and trouble when you know that those people groups will do what Dr. Phillip Davies did when he was presented with the evidence proving ancient Israel was as the Bible said?
All he did was close his eyes, shake his head, and repeat over and over that ‘it did not happen’. Are there any members of those people groups who are open-minded and who will take an honest look at what has been gathered and presented?
It is our experience that very few members of those people groups will be that way. Also, we have learned that even if believers discover the real ark used during Noah’s flood unbelievers will find something to criticize and justify their decision to reject it as physical evidence for the flood.
So what is the point in Christians meeting the demand of unbelievers to present evidence when they will only receive a cold reception and blind dismissal?
We understand that unbelievers are afraid of seeing the Bible proven true. If they were not afraid or if the atheists were right and there is no God, they would have no trouble honestly examining the evidence.
One example of this fear is a comment made in a Patterns of Evidence video posted to YouTube. The scholar providing the upcoming response hit the nail on the head, and we do this from memory when he said that unbelieving scholars and archaeologists do not want to prove the Exodus true.
He said ‘If they do, then they have to confront the reality of the Bible and make wholesale changes to their lives and bodies of work.’ Regular unbelievers can have peace that they are not the only ones who are afraid of seeing the Bible proven true.
This is one reason why they make so many unrealistic demands. One militant atheist we have known for a long time once told us to ‘go and dig’ when we talked about the evidence for Noah’s flood.
The problem with that is we cannot dig every square inch of the earth to uncover all the evidence he wants to see. Even if we present that evidence he is incapable or unwilling to accept it and convert.
There are two problems with providing evidence for Noah’s flood. The first is that a myriad of researchers have uncovered verifiable physical evidence for it. Graham Hancock has been one of those researchers as have Drs. Charles Hapgood, Ryan, Pittman, and Rehwenkle to name a few.
Their failure to recognize this evidence stems from problem number two. The majority of researchers and other folks do not know what evidence for a global flood would look like.
There has been only one and that event is difficult to excavate due to the construction, wars, natural disasters, and other events that change the nature of the evidence or remove it from existence.
When Sir Leonard Woolley declared he had found the flood layer in UR, the mainstream archaeologists at that time said he was wrong because the layer was not uniform. But does the flood layer have to be uniform to be evidence of the flood?
An honest person, taking into account all the variables that would change the design of the flood layer, would say no. A person who is not honest would close their mind and say yes.
The failure to accept the mitigating factors surrounding the discovery of evidence means that the person or persons hearing the evidence will not listen and waste the presenter’s time.
It is not that there is a lack of credible and verifiable physical evidence for the majority of biblical events. The internet is full of both Christian and secular websites that present this evidence and they are all easily accessed.
The key to all of this is the one word scientists, atheists, and other unbelievers hate. God created the equation to prove that he exists and his word is true. That word is faith. The Bible tells us that by faith we please God.
Thus God is not going to provide all the physical evidence anyone wants to see or demands. God is not going to destroy what pleases him. This means that we will only get enough physical evidence to strengthen our faith, not ruin it.
This is why there is no scientific evidence for the creation of the world. Creation was a one-time supernatural act that was not enacted using any scientific method.
The way science is constructed, it is impossible for that research field to analyze creation. It will not produce any evidence for that act. Science can study the results of creation and see that God’s word is true but that is as far as science can go.
Those who demand scientific evidence are merely using that demand to hide from the truth. Those who make unrealistic demands do so for the same reason. They do not want the Bible to be true for they would have to deal with the information like the archaeologists and other scholars mentioned earlier would have to do.
God uses faith to help divide the sheep from the goats. His equation tells him who believes him and who does not. Faith is merely believing God and the physical evidence is nothing but a supporting cast member.
So the question is, are you an honest, open-minded unbeliever or are you one of those dishonest, closed-minded ones that will not even give the evidence a fair hearing?
If you are the latter, don’t waste Christians’ time. Just stop making unrealistic demands for evidence that you will never listen to. If you want evidence then you should be prepared to give it a fair hearing and careful consideration.
Note: Thiessen refuses to comment on this site, nor does he allow comments on his main blog. Derrick said in his email to me:
Same instructions apply. It does not need your editor/assistant’s help. I will take the heat for any mistakes alleged or otherwise. I will also read all comments and respond on my own website if the need to respond is there.
Thank you for publishing it as is.
The only thing changed on Thiessen’s post was the title. It originally said, “Is It a Waste of Time” without proper punctuation. His chosen title was unspecific and ambiguous. I changed it to reflect its content. The body of the post was unchanged. I also shortened the bio and provided proper links.
BG opened his website to submit guest posts. He made the offer that anyone can send one in so we did. We asked God first to help us write what needed to be written and told him to publish it as is without his assistant doing any editing.
We shall see if that instruction is met and if he publishes our entry. We kept a copy to compare if and when it sees the light of day.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Several years ago, I received a “wonderful” comment from Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) pastor James Tester. Tester pastors Triad Baptist Church in Greensboro, North Carolina. In 1989, Tester moved to Hammond, Indiana to attend Hyles-Anderson College. In 1996, Tester left the Jack Hyles’ IFB mecca and moved to Longview, Texas to attend Texas Baptist College — an unaccredited college started by sycophant (ass-kisser, lackey, toady, bootlicker, fawner) Bob Gray, Sr., a Hyles-Anderson alum. After graduating from college, Tester worked for Bob Gray, Sr. at Longview Baptist Temple. In 2003, he was sent out by Longview Baptist to start a new church in Greensboro. North Carolina. (Just what Greensboro needed, another Baptist church, right?) Tester’s children both attended Texas Baptist College — now called Texas Independent Baptist Seminary and Schools.
As you will see from Tester’s comment, he’s a Bob Gray, Sr. fanboy, and much like his idol, he’s comfortable with passive-aggressive behavior and name-calling. I suspect Tester runs his church much like Gray, Sr. ran (lorded over) Longview Baptist back in the day. Today, Longview Baptist is pastored by Gray, Sr’s son. The church’s name has been changed to Emmanuel Baptist Church, and most observers believe the son has moved the church away from some of his father’s extreme behavior. It’s worth noting that Gray, Sr. no longer attends his son’s church. Make of that what you will.
With that background in mind, I give you Pastor James Tester’s comment (all spelling and grammar in the original). My commentary is indented and italicized:
Lol! Check out the author, look at his photo, read his bio and simply consider the source of this article! End of story!
What’s with IFB preachers and their obsession with my looks, weight, body shape, and penis size? Okay, maybe not that last one, but damn, these guys seem to think that if you don’t fit some sort of approved “look,” whatever you say can be dismissed out of hand.
What, in my bio, suggests that no one should listen to me? If anything, my bio reveals that I have a lot of preaching and ministerial experience; that I know what I am talking about.
What Tester is doing here is classic misdirection. Instead of actually interacting with what I have written (the message), he focuses on me personally (the messenger). All that matters is whether what I write is true or is an accurate portrayal of the IFB church movement in general and “Dr.” Bob Gray, Sr. in particular.
Tester says “end of story,” but I ain’t going anywhere. I will continue to expose the IFB church movement until I die. Just today, I had an investigative reporter from a major newspaper call me to talk about IFB churches and their pastors. I am always delighted to provide background information. Who better to get it from than a man who spent years attending and pastoring IFB churches?
Everyone that knows anything about an aggressive soul winning Independent Fundamental Baptist church knows that there are always disgruntles. You almost have as many walking out the back door as you have coming in the front door. There are always those that get offended at the preaching (truth) with many becoming bitter.
There were many times in the Bible where Jesus preached and the people were cut to the heart and drew Him to the edge of the city to stone Him and He escaped out of there hands. Conviction is powerful!
Tester admits that IFB church growth is a zero sum game; that as many people go out the back door as come in the front door. In fact, IFB churches continue to decline attendance-wise. Scores of large IFB churches are shells of what they once were or have closed their doors.
Tester would have us believe that the people leaving IFB churches are disgruntled; that when they could no longer stand getting their toes stepped on, they fled to friendlier confines.
While it is true, some congregants do become disgruntled and leave for other churches, but to suggest this is always the case is laughable. Men such as Gray, Sr., Jack Hyles, and James Tester psychologically abuse church members, bombarding them three times a week with preaching meant to inflict harm. People leave because they are tired of being abused.
Tester, true to form for IFB preachers, absolves Gray, Sr., Hyles, and I suspect, himself, from any culpability or accountability for how their preaching and behavior harms others.
I was there as a member in the most successful years of LBT through the early to late 90’s. I graduated TBC (The Bible College). I worked on staff in the early 2000’s. Sadly, I have seen people come and go. I personally know why many left. I have seen what they became after they left. It was shocking and very sad to see peoples lives totally destroyed, not by Brother gray or the preaching of truth but by sin and rebellion. The result was broken homes, divorced marriages, drug addiction, alcoholism, criminally convicted of crimes etc. Don’t blame God, the church or Bro. Gray for that.
Tester asserts that those who left Longview Baptist Temple have turned to sin and rebellion against God. Why, their departure from the IFB Mecca of Texas, led to broken homes, divorce, drug addiction, alcoholism, and criminal behavior. Can’t blame God or Gray, Sr. for how people turned out after they left Longview Baptist.
Lost on Tester is the fact that Gray, Sr. and Jack Hyles and countless other IFB pastors such as Steven Anderson and Tester himself, preach a truncated, bastardized gospel; a gospel called 1-2-3 repeat after me or decisional regeneration. Simply put, salvation is procured by assenting to a set of propositional truths and praying the sinner’s prayer. Nothing else is required or demanded from sinners. Just “believe,” and go on your merry way.
This kind of gospel, of course, makes no lasting difference, thus the constant turnover. As long-time readers know, Gray, Sr. was a consummate bean counter. All that mattered to him was the number of souls saved. Based on my calculation of the number of people “saved” at Longview Baptist, every person in Longview, Texas is now saved.
The real enemy has always been Satan, sin and people like the author of this article that is trying to sow discord among the brethren.
Ah yes, the real enemies are Satan, sin, and Evangelicals-turned-atheists such as Bruce Gerencser. Again, Tester refuses to see things as they are, blaming others for the decline numerical decline of the IFB church movement.
Tester accuses me of “sowing discord among the brethren.” In other words, my writing causes turmoil among IFB preachers and congregants. And to that charge, I gladly plead guilty. Nothing would make me happier than to see the IFB church movement implode, and church members leave for churches that preach a healthier, kinder, loving faith. Who doesn’t want to put an end to the abuse, right? If every IFB church in the United States closed overnight, it would be a good day.
As for the author having many friends from the old LBT, I can only say, that birds of a feather flock to together. If they are truly “friends” then they are the same in many ways. Think about that for a second. The Bible says in Amos 3:3, “Can two walk together, except they be agreed?” No one that is a so-called friend to this author (who is a self proclaimed atheist) is right with God (Let that sink in). Anyone that is feeding this author with this kind of trash is like Simon in the book of Acts 8:23 when Peter said to him, “For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.”
Yes, I have “spies” everywhere; people who share with stories about the IFB (and Evangelical) churches in their communities. One such person was the late Steve Gupton. Steve attended Texas Baptist College and the Longview Baptist Temple years ago. Others have contacted me and shared their own Bob Gray, Sr. horror stories. Don’t like people talking out of school? Treat people better. Stop verbally abusing and manipulating them.
I wonder if Tester has bothered to consider the fact that, according to his soteriology, I am still a Christian. I may be a “self-proclaimed atheist,” but according to the gospel preached by Gray, Sr., Hyles, and Tester, I am still a born-again Christian. Once saved, always saved, right? Sweet baby Jesus, Heaven will be my home someday. Tester will likely be my next door neighbor. Awesome!
I’m not surprised by this kind of junk being put out there, if this author was alive in Jesus day he would be saying the same kind of trash about Jesus. He would be criticizing the way Jesus spoke to the Pharisees when He called them a generation of vipers, saying that He is mean and not compassionate in His preaching. He would have written about that fact that He spent time with the sinners and the outcasts of the day saying that He has double standards and lives like those that He choses to be around. He would write articles slamming His doctrine saying that He was teaching and preaching against Old Testament law which is contrary to the writings of Moses. Jesus had many that falsely accused Him in His day. One of His right hand men that worked with him for years, Judas Iscariot betrayed Him. They came out of the woodwork at his mock trail and lied about Him, His teachings and His ministry.
Tester is suggesting that Jesus being persecuted in his day is the same as Bob Gray, Sr. and other IFB preachers being “persecuted” today. My, oh my, what a distorted view of one’s importance.
May this article be an encouragement to those who still believe the Word of God, go soul winning, and believe in the old time tried and proven paths of the KJB. The devil doesn’t like it when we obey Scripture, preach and live truth. That is why articles like this are written. We must be doing something right!
Tester thinks that my opposition to Gray, Sr. and the IFB church movement is proof of his and their rightness; that the only reason I write about them is that they must be doing something “right.”
I will leave it the astute readers of this blog to decide who is “right.” I can say that I have been contacted by scores of current and former IFB pastors, evangelists, missionaries, professors, and church members over the years. Their stories paint a picture of a movement that can be best described as a cult. Tester, of course, will never believe that he is a cultist. Until some sort of personal or theological crisis causes a chink in his certainty, there is no way of reaching him (and others like him). Certainty breeds arrogance. And as readers can see, Tester is full of both.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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My partner, Polly’s late father, an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) pastor, was handy with his hands — roofing houses, remodeling homes, building knick-knacks, constructing baby cradles, and making toys for his grandchildren. Lee’s favorite thing to make was a wooden version of Noah and the Ark, complete with animals. We still own one of the Arks, one Dad made for our youngest son Josiah, thirty years ago. This Ark has been beat-up, misused, and abused, but it is the type of toy that is virtually indestructible.
Fast forward to today. Our youngest daughter and her three children were over last weekend to visit. . .
Ezra (who is six): Grandpa?
Grandpa: Yes?
Ezra: Can I play with the boat?
Grandpa (puzzled): The boat?
Ezra: The one with the animals.
Grandpa (Still puzzled)
Ezra’s mother starts laughing
Laura: He’s talking about Noah’s Ark and the animals.
Grandpa (laughing): Sure.
As I later pondered this short exchange with my grandson, I was pleased with how far we have come as a family. Ezra doesn’t attend church. He’s never been indoctrinated or fed a steady dose of fictional Bible stories passed off as historical fact. Ezra had never heard of Noah’s Ark before. All he knew about was the wooden boat with animals in the closet upstairs.
This is progress. The curse has been broken.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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By Dr. David Tee, world-class Egyptologist, archaeologist, biologist, cosmologist, and Bible scholar, TheologyArcheology: A Site for the Glory of God, A Word About Egyptian Chronology, May 30, 2024
This is a monumental task. Revision of all the chronologies would change history and support the validity of the Biblical record. As one scholar said . . . no one wants to prove the Exodus true because that would mean they would have to deal with the reality that the Bible is true (paraphrased from memory).
That experience would mean that scholars would have to change their lives, conclusions, academic papers, and books as well as seriously consider accepting Christ as their Savior [the former bears no connection with the latter].
Not many scholars are willing to do that. Here is the realization that God taught us [me] as we [I] were watching those videos [Patterns of Evidence (POE)]. The Egyptian Chronology is not inspired nor is it infallible.
Christian scholars and archaeologists cannot link the Biblical chronology to the Egyptian one and make it subservient to the latter. In fact, all of the scholars and the items they use to determine ancient timelines are not inspired or infallible. There are no absolute dates or events that cannot be changed.
Only the Bible and its timeline cannot be changed because it is inspired and infallible. [Yet, it has been edited, changed, and corrected thousands of times.] The Biblical chronology is the one that influences all others, not the Egyptian one. [in other words, when facts, evidence, or probabilities conflict with the Bible, the B-i-b-l-e is ALWAYS right.]
Those Christians who do not make this change will have trouble harmonizing ancient events with the biblical record and they will also have trouble with their faith. They are not getting to the truth but provide a helping hand in hiding it.
This is crucial for all Christian scholars, historians, and archaeologists, as well as regular Christians. Getting to the truth means not following the secular world and not letting their information damage the Bible. [Actually, getting to the truth means following the evidence wherever it leads, even if doing so uproots things we previously believed. I want to believe as many true things as possible. Unfortunately, Thiessen only wants to believe things that affirm, reinforce, and bolster his Fundamentalist beliefs. Everything else is a Satanic lie from the pit of Hell.]
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
What is it about Evangelicals who think that I am being less than honest about my past and present life? Rarely does a week go by without someone questioning my truthfulness or doubting my explanations as to why I left Christianity.
Today, I received an email from Pastor Mark (I know his last name, but I won’t mention it here). Here’s what Pastor Mark had to say:
I have read your stories. I’m not surprised by the way you feel. However, how could you be a minister for over 25 years unless you believed in Jesus Christ? Maybe you never had a true relationship with Him. Maybe you allowed other people, things to come between you and Him. I cannot answer those questions, but you can and you can answer them honestly.
It make me wonder if your family (wife, children, grandchildren, etc) feel the same way you feel about Jesus. One thing I know, Jesus didn’t leave you, you left Jesus.
Pastor Mark wonders how it is possible that I pastored for twenty-five years, but didn’t believe in Jesus. Here’s the thing, I did believe in Jesus. I was a devoted, committed follower of Jesus Christ. My beliefs, practices, and lifestyle testified that I was a child of God. No one, at the time, questioned my relationship with Jesus. It was only after I divorced Jesus that people doubted whether I was a True Christian®.
Pastor Mark wonders if I had a “true” relationship with Jesus. I did. He also wonders if people or things came between me and Jesus. Sorry to burst your bubble, Pastor Mark, but they did not. I left Christianity primarily for intellectual reasons. Pastor Mark would have learned this had he checked out the WHY? page, but alas, much like most Evangelicals, the good pastor showed little, if any, curiosity about my story.
Pastor Mark asks me to answer his questions “honestly.” Have I been anything other than honest? Seventeen years, over 4,000 posts on this iteration of my blog, and people are still questioning my honesty. What more do I need to do? Post nude pics with every article, showing my nakedness before God and my fellow man?
Pastor Mark wonders about my wife, children, and grandchildren. Their stories are theirs to tell, but I can say that none of them is an Evangelical. I can also say they are atheists, humanists, agnostics, nominal Catholics, and generally indifferent towards organized religion. This is, to me anyway, good news. This means the Evangelical curse has been broken.
Pastor Mark is certain that Jesus didn’t leave me, but I left Jesus. First, Jesus is dead, so he couldn’t go anywhere. Second, I didn’t leave Jesus, I left Christianity. It’s Christianity that I reject. Again, check out the WHY? page.
There ya have it, Pastor Mark. All your Bruce Gerencser questions answered. I do, however, have a few questions about you. Are you the . . . Naw, I will leave it there.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
