Grace: Hello Bruce, I read your article. You were a pastor for many years, and now you are an atheist. Is that correct?
Bruce: Yes, that’s correct. I was an Evangelical pastor for 25 years. Thanks!
Grace: And now you are an atheist? Is that correct?
Bruce: Yes. I deconverted seventeen years ago.
As you can readily see, I politely and pointedly answered her questions. Yet, Grace’s questions were just a set up for her finishing blow.
Grace: Pastors lead people to hell. So you were on your way to hell then and now.
Luther was as much a heretic as the Catholic church.
The great evangelical disaster leads people to hell.
OSAS is Unscriptural.
“by faith alone” is Unscriptural.
Tithing is not NT Scriptural.
Church buildings are Unscriptural.
But at least you worked Some for a livig [sic].
It’s a shame you led people to hell then and are still on your way there.
But, your choice.
Peace
As you can see, Grace is certain she is right and I am wrong. No discussion required. She knows I’m wrong and headed for Hell; that my entire sixty-eight years of life is a fraud; a lie.
Never mind the fact that Grace doesn’t know anything about me other than an unnamed article she read. To that I say:
It’s stupid and embarrassing to give an answer before you listen. Proverbs 18:13
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Anyone can comment on this site, even Evangelicals and Independent Fundamentalist Baptists. All I ask is that commenters follow the comment policy. Unfortunately, many followers of Jesus either can’t read or they think the comment policy doesn’t apply to them. In their minds, they are servants of Jesus, so whatever he tells them to do or say, they do it, Bruce be damned.
Over the past week, a new Evangelical commenter has been commenting on this blog. She has also sent me numerous emails. Her behavior gave me pause, but I thought I would let her continue to comment. Well, today brought the following comment which I want to respond to:
Ar the risk of being given the “boot” for mentioning prayer on here, I was just so touched, I had to send this. I wasn’t gonna say a blessed thing about prayers going up.for your health condition, 🙏 but was clandestinely putting you on every healing prayer site I could possibly find, in hopes that you would begin to regain some strength, and hope that you aren’t “destined” to continue suffering like this.
Yes, you have indeed crossed a line. I do not appreciate your conduct. Did I ask you to contact people and ask them to pray for me? No. Did I ask you to share my health problems with them? No. Yet, you felt you had the “right” to parade my name and health issues before others. You could have kept this to yourself, but you didn’t. No, you needed me to know that you and your Christian ceiling knockers were praying for me, ignoring what Jesus said about praying in secret.
I can’t stop people from praying for me. If Christians want to babble at the ceiling, so be it. However, I am not interested in being apprised of your vacuous, empty prayers. Yes, empty. Thousands of Christians are allegedly praying for me, yet my health remains the same, and I am still an unrepentant atheist. It is evident, at least to me, that prayer doesn’t work. It can’t, because the Christian God is a myth. He can no more answer a prayer than another mythical being, Satan.
That said, if I am instantly healed of gastroparesis (incurable), exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (incurable), degenerative spine disease (incurable), and peripheral neuropathy (incurable), I will repent and put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Time to put up or shut up. Surely, with all these prayer warriors praying for me, healing is but an utterance away.
This commenter gossiped about me with a pastor associated with Catch the Fire Ottawa. This pastor sent the woman a copy of what he prayed (all spelling and grammar in the original):
— begin prayer —
Lord Jesus,
We lift up Bruce to You today. You see his pain, You know every part of his body that is suffering, and You understand the depths of the times of despair he has felt at times bevause of it. He has said that if You cared enough to heal him, he would believe. Lord, we know that You do care — deeply. You cared enough to come, to suffer, and to die so that we might have life.
So we boldly ask, in Your mercy, that You would touch Bruce’s spine and body. Heal what doctors say is incurable. Bring relief where there has been only pain. Speak peace into the storm of his body and mind. Let healing flow through every part of his nervous system, his muscles, his digestive system, his pancreas — and especially his spine. Let him be able to say, “God heard me. God helped me. God is real.
But more than just healing, Lord, we ask that You would draw Bruce to Yourself. In Your gentleness, open his heart to Your love. Reveal Yourself not just as a healer, but as a Father and a Friend. God loves the fatherless. Meet him in the dark places with Your light. Give him hope not only for his body, but for his heart and inner well-being, healing from trauma and deep brokenness.
You often used healing in Scripture to bring people to faith — not just to restore their bodies, but to re-invite them into a relationship with You. Would You do that for Bruce? Not just to lessen his pain, but to show him You have never forgotten him.
We ask all this in Your powerful and compassionate name, Jesus Christ, our Healer and Redeemer. Amen.
Yes, Lord! We ask for a regenerative miracle for Bruce.
Amen
— end of prayer —
What more can I say other than “sigh.” (Please see Why I Use the Word “Sigh.”) Just another example of a follower of Jesus who shows no regard or respect for me or thinks she knows what is best for me. Such behavior is unsurprising. I’ve been blogging for seventeen years. I have seen this boorish behavior over and over again.
For the record, I wish I weren’t sick. I wish I weren’t in pain all the time. But wishing, like prayer, is a waste of time. Life is what it is, and no amount of babbling to the ceiling will change that fact. I accept that this is my lot in life. As I mentioned above, most of my health problems are incurable. There’s nothing doctors can do except treat my symptoms and try to alleviate my suffering.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen, recently wrote several posts about me, Do Not Let Unbelievers Define You and Why Mention Us? What follows is my response to some of the things he said.
What is missing is the author’s [Bruce Gerencser] understanding of the Christian life, which he says otherwise. He fails to take into account that Christians are at all stages of sanctification and that Christians are still human and use human responses at different times.
Supposedly, Evangelicals are filled with the Holy Ghost. God literally lives inside of every believer, teaching them everything that pertains to life and godliness. Yet, when we look at their behavior, it looks like many Christians — including Thiessen — ignore the teachings of the Bible and the instruction of the Holy Spirit.
Thiessen justifies his “sin” by saying he is just human and God is presently sanctifying him. Thiessen has been a Christian for at least sixty years, yet his behavior suggests he is a neophyte who doesn’t practice what he preaches. If Thiessen is going to judge and condemn the behavior of unbelievers, he shouldn’t be surprised when judgment and condemnation are returned in kind.
Surely, Thiessen hasn’t forgotten that I was a Christian for decades; that I was an Evangelical pastor for twenty-five years. I am quite familiar with what Thiessen calls the “Christian life.”
We wish we were perfect so that all of our responses would be viewed in a better light, but like all Christians, sometimes outside influences get the better of us all, and we say things in a way we should not.
Thiessen says he wishes he could be a better Christian, but, hey, no one is perfect, right? Fair enough, but when you repeatedly preach AT unbelievers, you shouldn’t be surprised when you reap what you sow.
Besides, doesn’t the Bible say, “Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world?” Did not Paul say, “I can do all things through Christ, which strengthens me?” Thiessen has everything he needs to be a humble, kind, thoughtful Christian, yet he, instead, presents himself as a weak, immature believer prone to the machinations of the flesh.
Instead of being condemnatory, unbelievers should apply a modicum of grace and understanding as Christians face a long, hard road, one that BG could not complete. He should not stand in judgment of others, but be humbled by the fact that millions of Christians are still walking the straight and narrow, a path he could not walk to the end.
I will show Thiessen as much grace and understanding as he shows towards me and the readers of this blog. Thiessen has long claimed that the Christian life is a long, hard road. He provides no evidence for this claim. Christians are human, just like the rest of us. The difference, however, is that Evangelicals think they are morally and ethically superior to the unwashed, uncircumcised Philistines of the world.
Thiessen continues to lie about why I deconverted. And he knows he is lying when he says I quit Christianity because I found it to be too hard. This is patently untrue. I deconverted because I no longer believed the central claims of Christianity.
But that is what unbelievers do. They use the scripture to condemn believers and ridicule them. Then write posts trying to humiliate them. Christians need to ignore such inflammatory words and condemnations.
I am not in the habit of condemning people. Thiessen evidently doesn’t understand the difference between critique and condemnation. Have I ever condemned Thiessen? Sure, but not often. I do my best to challenge and critique his assertions. When Thiessen starts attacking my character, I can, at times, respond in anger to him. An anger, by the way, that is often justified.
Thiessen says, “Christians need to ignore such inflammatory words and condemnations.” If Thiessen really believes this, why has he written two posts about me in recent days? I know Thiessen doesn’t like me labeling him as a “bad Christian,” but I call them like I see them. If Theissen had been a member of the churches I pastored, he would have been excommunicated for his boorish, un-Christian behavior. Much like Revival Fires, there’s nothing I can say to Thiessen that forces him to practice self-reflection.
Unbelievers do not understand what is entailed in the Christian life, nor do they allow for Christians to make mistakes. They want to see perfection from imperfect people. We do not need to make the Christian life any more difficult than it really is by letting unbelievers define our actions and words.
Does Thissen really believe that I don’t understand what God requires and demands from Christians? The issue isn’t Christians making mistakes. None of us is perfect. However, Evangelicals think they are morally superior to unbelievers. They demand non-Christians conform to and obey the teachings of the Bible — even though they don’t do so themselves.
I don’t define how Christians should live. I let the Bible do the defining. What better way to show the bankruptcy of Evangelical Christianity than pointing out that their works don’t match their words; that their behavior is contrary to the teachings of the Bible.
They do not know what God instructs Christians to say or do, and since they are not walking in the faith, they have no say about a Christian’s actions or words. Yes, some people do go too far, but rebuking them is up to their fellow Christians.
Is Thiessen kidding? Does he seriously believe that I don’t know what the Bible says about how Christians are to live their lives? The issue is that Thiessen doesn’t like it when I use the Bible to condemn Evangelical misbehavior, including his.
Only Jesus defines Christians and Christian behavior, and with the help of the Holy Spirit, we can overcome those faults that plague our lives. Sanctification is not an easy road, as examples by the many pastors, missionaries, and Christians who have left the faith.
No one should expect perfection from Christians when the world is still full of evil that is very active in seeking to destroy believers. That is another reason why we do not listen to unbelievers about our conduct. Their words can lead to our destruction as they misuse the truth to change Christians and how they interact with others.
Evil is not a thing. Evil is what people do, and Christians do a lot of it. Do I think Thiessen is “evil?” I don’t know him well enough to make such a determination, but I do know enough about his past to suggest that he has, at times, been a terrible Christian.
Thiessen wrongly judges unbelievers solely based on their lack of faith. However, all that matters is truth. All that matters is whether someone is speaking the truth, regardless of their personality and demeanor. One thing I have noticed from my interactions with Thiessen is this: he rarely, if ever, responds to my critiques. Instead, he attacks my character and, without evidence, says I’m wrong. Why am I wrong? I am an unbeliever, and unbelievers are always wrong in Thiessen’s alternate reality. Thiessen is a young-earth creationist. He believes the universe is 6,000 years old. He believes Adam and Eve were the first two humans, and God destroyed the earth with a flood, saving only Noah and his family. None of these claims are scientifically true, yet Thiessen thinks most scientists are wrong about, well, almost everything. Thiessen has very little science training, yet he passes himself off as an expert, complete with a fake PhD.
They are not there seeking what is best for us. They are seeking what is best for them and what they want to see. But we serve God and strive to please him even when we fail. That is the great thing about God. He uses grace and forgiveness, along with discipline, to help us get back on and stay on the right track.
We look to God for our correction when we do wrong and not unbelievers. Jesus defines us and helps us get to the truth of how we should live.
Blah, blah, blah. This is just a repeat of what he said previously.
The words in italics [Evangelical-pastor-turned-atheist] tell us that he should know better than to write the content that he does. He is supposed to know all of this, yet excludes that knowledge when he rants against Christians. He doesn’t realize how much of a traitor he is in the eyes of many believers.
Let me stop laughing for a moment so I can respond to Thiessen.
Poor, ignorant, Bruce, right?
He should also know that what he sows, he shall reap. He can be very abusive, immoral, and other negatives in his writing about believers, so he should not expect to be treated with kid gloves by many Christians.
No, we don’t always reap what we sow. Just because the Bible says this doesn’t mean its true.
I have never expected people to treat me with “kid gloves.” However, the awful treatment I receive from people who are supposedly filled with the Holy Ghost is beyond the pale. Thiessen is trying to justify his bad behavior. In his mind, “I make him mad, so he has a right to treat me like shit.” Really, where does the Bible say this? Come on, Derrick, show me one verse that justifies your abhorrent behavior. I can quote a dozen or more verses that directly condemn your behavior. It’s not sin, Satan, or the flesh that keeps me from faith in Christ. It’s Christians like you who stand in the way of sinners coming to Jesus. Your behavior suggests that Christianity is not transformative; that there is no “new life in Christ.” If you think I am wrong, Derrick, prove it with your actions. At the end of the day, how we live is all that matters.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Kind, thoughtful Christians will often object when I reveal how I have been treated by Evangelical Christians since 2007. In their minds, they can’t fathom a Christian threatening to murder someone. Alas, deplorable conduct from Evangelicals is common; more common than polite, respectful behavior. Throw in the Evangelicals who take delight in threatening me with eternal punishment in Hell, and I’ve concluded that my writing either attracts the worst Christianity has to offer or this sort of behavior is normative.
Today, Daniel left the following comment:
I know you’re not lying, but you have seriously had “Christians” send you death threats? I’m sorry. That’s pathetic and vile. Jesus very clearly said if you hate someone in your heart it’s as if you committed murder. Wishing death on an atheist is totally opposite of what Jesus taught (I do believe His teachings myself). Can you expound on this or write an article about these threats? If you have not already.
I have had a few Evangelicals threaten to murder me. One man, an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) from Detroit — 2 hours from my home — threatened to slit my throat. Others have prayed imprecatory prayers, asking God to physically and permanently silence me. And then there are the threats made against my family, including my thirty-five-year-old daughter with Down syndrome.
I have received thousands of emails, comments, and social media messages from Evangelical Christians. The majority of them were argumentative, belligerent, and hostile. Evidently, Colossians 3:12-17 NSRV is missing from their King James Bibles:
Therefore, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience.Bear with one another and, if anyone has a complaint against another, forgive each other; just as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.Above all, clothe yourselves with love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; teach and admonish one another in all wisdom; and with gratitude in your hearts sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to God.And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
These verses tell believers that they are to clothe themselves with certain behaviors. It seems to me a lot of Evangelicals are stark naked.
Here’s the thing: while their behavior is detestable, is it really much different from polite, smiling, Bible quoting Evangelicals who feel duty-bound to tell me and other non-believers that we are headed for Hell unless we get saved? While murdering me is bad, is not consigning me to endless torture and suffering in the Lake of Fire worse?
Even if I returned to Christianity, I would never attend an Evangelical congregation. The damage is done, and the behavior of too many of them is a poor reflection on Jesus. I have no interest in a religion that is known for what it is against, and is one of the most hated sects in America. The first people to object to this post will be Revival Fires and Dr. David Tee. Not surprising since they are known for abusing and attacking anyone and everyone who disagrees with them
Today, I received a long email from a Mennonite man near Somerset, Ohio. This man was a teen back in the days when I pastored Somerset Baptist Church. I befriended some of the Mennonite men who lived nearby. I found the lot of them to be good people. This man’s email reflected that goodness. It was polite and informative, a reminder of the common connections we once had. (Short Stories: Bruce and the Amish.) While a nice letter from an Evangelical man won’t convince me to return to Christianity, it does remind me that not every Christian is like Revival Fires and David Tee. I suspect the letter writer and his fellow Mennonites would condemn their behavior, as I have.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
I received the following email today from an Evangelical named Garry (all spelling, grammar, and irrationality in the original):
A humanist and an atheist…..That’s all I need to know about you to dismiss your opinion! My unsolicited advice to you would be to please state your belief system at the beginning of an article you write. Wouldn’t have wasted my time with your article. To be fair however; CT Townsend is a charlatan and the Holy Spirit warned me against him long ago…..just as He has warned me against you just now.
Instead of judging and evaluating my writing based on its content, Adkins dismisses everything I say because I am an atheist and a humanist. Talk about a closed mind. I read Evangelical content virtually every day. I do not dismiss Evangelical writers just because of their religious affiliation. I try to judge and critique Evangelicals based on what they say instead of who or what they are. What’s important is what people think and believe. Granted, it is sometimes impossible to ignore a person’s character and associations, but I try my best to take a person’s arguments at face value.
I am perplexed by Adkins’ suggestion that I state my beliefs at the beginning of every article. Depending on what device and operating system you use to read this site, you will see an author’s block on the top right of the page that details who and what I am. People using mobile devices won’t see this, but EVERY post has an author’s block at the the bottom. Further, there’s an About page that gives new readers everything they need to know about the man, myth, and legend Bruce Gerencser. If you want to know who I am or how to contact me, that information is easy to find.
Adkins says God spoke to him directly, warning him against me. What did God say? I want to know. I have been asking this same question for almost twenty years. Most people who claim God directly speaks to them about me are unable to tell me exactly what God said. Of course, the reason for that is that God is a myth, and the only voice in their heads is their own. Adkins cannot prove God, in the person of the Holy Spook, said anything to him about the Evangelical-preacher-turned-atheist Bruce Gerencser.
Much like other lazy, indolent Evangelical Christians, Adkins lacks curiosity. Either that or he thinks he already knows everything he needs to know about me.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
One day, Sue drove to the local McDonald’s to order lunch.
Worker: Hello! Welcome to McDonald’s. When you are ready, please give me your order.
Sue: Thank you! I would like to order a Whopper.
Worker: I’m sorry, Ma’am, we don’t sell the Whopper.
Sue: Well, you should.
Worker: I’m sorry, Ma’am, but Whoppers are sold at Burger King. Would you like a Big Mac or a Quarter Pounder with Cheese, instead?
Sue: No, I want a Whopper!
Worker: Again, we don’t sell the Whopper. i suggest you go to Burger King if you want a Whopper. Have a good day.
Click.
Sue, of course, is quite silly and unreasonable to expect McDonald’s to sell her a Whopper. If Sue wants a Whopper she should drive to a Burger King and buy one.
Remember this story as you read a comment I received today from a Christian woman named Sue. My response follows.
Off topic: It’s obvious you hate Christianity.
I don’t hate Christianity, or any other religion, for that matter. And, for the record, I don’t hate the practitoners of Christianity either. I do, however, hate the harm — both psychological and physical — caused in the name of the Christian deity.
This blog focuses on Evangelical Christianity. My goal is to help those who have questions and doubts about Christianity or who have already left the faith. Why? I live in a country dominated by Christianity. Evangelicalism is the dominant religious force in many areas in the United States. I know it is where I live. Not content to live and let live, Evangelicals are determined to establish Jesus as Lord and King, and the Bible as the law of the land. Are you paying attention to what is going on in Washington D.C.? Evangelicals are running wild in the halls of the White House, using the Idiot King to enable Project 2025 and establish a theocracy.
It is for these reasons, and others, that I focus on Evangelical Christianity. I have six children and sixteen grandchildren. I worry about what awaits them if Evangelicals get their way. I don’t see Muslims, Jews, Hindus, or Buddhists trying to take back America for their God. I don’t see them trying to enforce their religious texts as the law of the land. If these religions posed a threat, I would write about them. But, they don’t, so I see no need to spend much, if any, time on other religions.
What about other religions? What about Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists? What about other far eastern religions such as Taoism? Are you afraid to criticize other religions, because you think you will be seen as a bigot of sorts?
See above.
I am not afraid, period. I am not, by nature, a fearful man. I was raised in the Evangelical church, attended an Evangelical college, married an Evangelical preacher’s daughter, and pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years. Evangelicalism is my area of expertise. It is what I know well. Why would I write about religions I know very little about?
I have zipped through many of your posts, I have never (correct me if I am wrong) seen you criticize any other religion but Christianity. I have never seen you criticize the Kohran, the Jewish texts, the philosophies of Buddha, and the Hindus with their array of gods, many which are human/animal hybrids. What do you think about reincarnation? If you are an atheist/humanist shouldn’t you hate all religions equally?
See above.
As mentioned above, I don’t hate any religion. I couldn’t care less about what religious people believe as long as those beliefs don’t cause harm. But, they do cause harm, don’t they? And that’s why I focus my writing on Evangelicalism.
All religions are false, but not all religions are benign. Want to see the harm caused by Evangelical preachers? Check out the Black Collar Crime Series — more than 1, 000 reports of crimes (mostly sexual) committed by Evangelical preachers.
Sue, this store sells Big Macs. Please stay around, if you are interested in Big Macs. If you want a Whopper, I suggest you visit your local Buger King. I’m sure they will meet your Whopper need.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
We don’t hate them, LGBTQ people, Sage. If we hated Because we hate LGBTQ people, them we would let them go go hell unearned and unprayed for without the gospel! hope these sexual deviants burn in Hell. Dr. David Tee and I, and many others bring them the gospel! will not rest until LGBTQ people are rounded up and sent to internment camps.
Sadly, those caught in lgbtq trans demonic homos snare who attack and condemn LGBTQ people are going to realize too late that the “haters” those who shared the gospel with them were the ones that really LOVED THEM! it is they who will land in Hell someday for hating other people who have literally done nothing to them. And those who approved of, supported, and celebrated with them in their sin were the ones that HATED them LGBTQ people will be rewarded by God for loving their neighbors as themselves, while Revival Fires and Dr. David Tee will be And driven the through the gates of Hell on a Trump-driven, Musk-built rocket sled. 😭😭
“HE SHALL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOKY GHOST AND WITH FIRE” MATTHEW 3:11. Put your left foot in, and put your left foot out, and shake it all about, do the Hoky Ghost, and turn yourself around, that’s what it’s all about.
MAY GOD BRING MANY TO JESUS!!! SPARKE A REVIVAL FIRE!!!! 🔥 May Revival Fires and Dr. David Tee repent of their wicked, hateful ways before it is too late and they land in Hell.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
In 2007, as a Christian — barely — who was struggling with his faith, I started blogging. For a time, I found the Emergent (or Emerging) Church a welcome respite from Evangelical Christianity, but I eventually found its core beliefs lacking too. A year later, I publicly announced that I was an agnostic, and a few months later, an atheist. I dropped the “agnostic” moniker because I got tired of having to explain repeatedly what the word meant. Currently, I self-identify as an agnostic atheist.
As a Christian blogger, I was repeatedly attacked and harassed by Evangelicals for my “liberal” beliefs — both theologically and politically. Then, as now, Evangelicals took one of two positions about my “faith.”
I never was a Christian.
I am still a Christian, but under the chastisement of God.
In November 2008, I attended church for the last time. Throughout my journey from Evangelicalism to atheism, I have blogged about my experiences and beliefs. Countless Evangelicals have come to this site, determined to set me straight about my beliefs. Thousands of emails, blog comments, and social media messages later, I have noticed certain tactics Evangelicals use to repudiate or evangelize me. Evangelicals are, if anything, predictable. And, to be fair, all of us can be predictable. I know I am, though I generally try to engage people where they are. That said, I’ve become quite adept at sniffing out motivations. I’ve had commenters go out of their way to “hide” their Evangelical beliefs. Often, they will try to suck me in with science or philosophy arguments — which is all the rage on YouTube. Usually, I don’t engage in discussions or debates about the existence of God or the beginning of the universe. I know some readers revel in such subjects, but, for me, I’m not that interested. Not that I lack knowledge sufficient to engage in such discussions. I am confident that I can hold my own. I just don’t find these discussions interesting. Rarely do they lead to satisfying conclusions. So I try to stay focused on Evangelicalism (and the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church movement) and the teachings of the Bible.
When commenters try to hide their Evangelical beliefs, I’ve become pretty good at cutting through their philosophical bullshit, forcing them to admit that they are not arguing for a generic deity, but the God of the Bible. Once they admit they are Evangelicals who base their beliefs on the teachings of the inspired, inerrant, and infallible Bible, I am ready to have a discussion with them. Sometimes, I will even grant their philosophical beliefs and then ask them how they connect this cosmic deity of theirs to the God of the Bible. Once trapped inside the pages of the Bible, it’s easier to discuss their beliefs.
This brings me to “Dr.” Arv Edgeworth. Edgeworth is an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) evangelist from Ohio. Over the past several days, I have received numerous emails from Edgeworth, as has Carolyn, my editor. Edgeworth’s emails had an accusatory, judgmental tone, which is typical coming from IFB preachers. I have directly and pointedly answered Edgeworth’s emails (which you can read in the previous posts in this series). Not because I thought I could make a dent in Edgeworth’s thinking — you don’t argue Fundamentalist Baptists out of their beliefs. I’m content to engage such people, hoping that responses will be beneficial to others — especially lurkers. I have had Evangelical zealots who have engaged me in word-to-word combat return months later, admitting they were wrong or that they treated me poorly. I am always grateful when someone apologizes for their boorish behavior. Sadly, this doesn’t happen very often.
Unfortunately, some Evangelicals use their apologies as a ploy. This has happened often enough that I have a hard time accepting Evangelical apologies as genuine. The first question that comes to my mind is this: Is this a genuine apology? The second question is this: What are their motivations? Take Revival Fires (RF). RF is a terrible example of what it means to be a Christian. He has sent me numerous emails and left scores of comments on this site. He is a nasty, vile son of a bitch; someone who loves posting comments detailing prison rape and scat. Several years ago, I called out his behavior, using Bible verses to show that his behavior was not consistent with the teachings of the Bible. Afterward, I received a nice, respectful email from RF. He wanted to be “friends” with me. My response? Are you fucking kidding me? You shit on my doorstep, piss in my corn flakes, attack and harass my wife and children, and you want me to befriend you? Go fuck yourself. And get some therapy. Soon, RF went back to his putrid ways.
Other Evangelicals have taken this approach with me — mainly Independent Fundamentalist Baptists. I’ve received numerous apologies, only to have the person apologizing return to their hateful ways days or weeks later. As a result of past experiences, I am hesitant to believe people when they suddenly apologize after being so hostile towards me. Is their apology genuine? Time will tell, and I have found that most of them return to their hateful ways. Why? I can’t be certain, but I suspect hatred is part of their religious DNA. The IFB church movement, for example, is built upon a foundation of hate; not just ideas or beliefs, but people and institutions. When a Christian is exposed to this kind of thinking week after week, it is almost impossible for them to change their thinking. Possible, but hard. Typically, lasting change requires leaving the IFB church movement.
I’m sure you are thinking, Bruce, what the hell does this have to do with Arv Edgeworth? I know, I know, I’m a long-winded preacher. 🙂 Yesterday, I received the following email from Edgeworth:
I want to apologize, I have been pretty judgmental in my attitude, and I assumed some things I shouldn’t have. Sorry about that. In spite of our differences, maybe we can reach some common ground.
After this statement, Edgeworth took a conciliatory, friendly approach, attempting to connect with me. He sent me several more emails taking a similar tact. Is Edgeworth being genuine? I have no way of knowing. Time will tell. I certainly accept his apology, but the value of any apology is determined by how a person acts going forward. I don’t expect Edgeworth to agree with me or change his beliefs. What I do expect is that he treats me with respect and lets me tell my story on my own terms. I have had many delightful conversations with Christians over the years; people I had little in common with. It is possible for Evangelicals and atheists to get along. Possible, but not easy. Probable? Not likely, but I feel I should at least try to find common ground with people who hold different beliefs than mine. I’m not a debater. I prefer friendly back-and-forth discussions, say over dinner or a beer at the local pub. Sadly, many Evangelicals (and some atheists) take this approach instead:
This scene from Mars Attacks! — one of my favorite movies — shows how many people approach discussions about religion (and politics). I have no interest in eviscerating Evangelicals, including Edgeworth. I accept his apology, but time will tell whether it is genuine. If he reverts to the IFB norm, it is only a matter of time before I say or write something that will offend his Holy Ghost sensibilities. How will he react? I know how IFB preachers before him have acted, but maybe, just maybe, he will be an exception to the rule.
The ball is in Arv’s court. Will he see the ball? I don’t know, since he has repeatedly told me that he doesn’t plan to read this blog. That’s on him. I am more than willing to engage him in thoughtful discussion. One thing is for sure, Arv will get a lot more exposure as a result of our interaction. 🙂 I just did a Google Search on “Arv Edgeworth.” Three days in, and this site is already the third search result. 🙂 All praise be to Loki.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Occasionally, I receive snail mail from Evangelical Christians, hoping they can evangelize me. My address isn’t hard to find. Let me give it to you so you can send me lots of money:
Bruce Gerencser PO Box 183 Ney, Ohio 43549
🙂 On a more serious note, today, I received a letter from an Evangelical Christian who reads this blog. Gotta love his choice in reading material, right? Here’s what he (or she) had to say (slightly edited for readability):
Dear Bruce,
Want to let you know that Christ loves you more than you know. He does NOT want you to be separated from him in Hell. It is no Christian’s place or job to say whether you were saved or not (David Tee, unreadable name, Revival Fires, John, David, or whoever). See Timothy 2:13 [if we are faithless, he remains faithful—he cannot deny himself]. I hope you were. If so, you can return to him, and he is waiting for you to do so. If not, don’t reject the greatest gift! The greatest love from the greatest man to ever live — Jesus Christ.
Enclosed is a tract called Back from the Dead? I encourage you to read it. Also www.chick.com. NO FEAR and the Empty Tomb are great to look at, too.
Sadly, someone can read my writing and still not understand my story. This reader thinks that all it will take to win me back to Jesus is for me to read a tract. Really? This approach may work with people uninitiated in Evangelicalism, but that’s not me. I’m not low-hanging fruit that can be easily picked with cheap, shallow Evangelical propaganda. The same goes for sending me lists of Bible verses. “OMG! I didn’t know the Bible said that,” says Bruce NEVER. I’m sure this reader meant well, but he might want to rethink his approach to former Christians — especially college-trained preachers. I know he thinks the Bible is a magical book; that its words can overcome reason, skepticism, and common sense. It’s not. It’s just a book of words written by men.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
What follows is my response to another email from Independent Fundamentalist Evangelist Arv Edgeworth
Mr. Gerencser,
So nice to hear from you. I don’t read your blog so I won’t be reading your replies to my emails to Carolyn. I read your “Why” section, and all I saw was poor logic on your account, so I have no desire to read any further.
That’s up to you. Remember, you came to this site and then emailed me.
You claim I use poor logic, yet you provide no evidence for your claim. What laws of logic have I violated?
Bruce, you blame God and the “Church” for you neglecting your family. I have known several pastors who built strong ministries, and they had strong family ties, and I saw no evidence they neglected their families in any way. I’m sorry you neglected yours. But that is on YOU, not God.
I don’t blame “God.” He is a myth, so it would be foolish to blame a mythical being for something that happened in my life. I accept full responsibility for the choices I have made throughout my life. Part of accepting responsibility is determining why a certain decision was made. From this perspective, my pastors, professors, and the churches I pastored all played a part in how I neglected my family. I was indoctrinated and conditioned to view the world a certain way. The same goes for how I viewed my calling and the work of the ministry. I can’t be at fault for practicing what I was taught or what was modeled to me by my pastors and peers. I did what I thought was right in the eyes of God. Over time, my thinking changed. How I viewed the ministry in 1976 was very different from the way I viewed it in 1997. Unfortunately, Edgeworth does what many of my critics do: he takes a snapshot of a certain point in my life and applies it to the sum of my life, not allowing for change as I got older and matured.
I was a Creation evangelist for over 20 years, giving over 450 seminars in 27 different states. Sometimes my wife couldn’t go with me because she was our church secretary for 27 years, but she is my best friend, and we are both close to our kids. We will celebrate 60 wonderful years of marriage this week.
Okay? I’m not sure what the point is. We all have a storyline. In my case, I was saved at the age of fifteen and called to preach several weeks later. In the fall of 1976, I enrolled in classes at Midwestern Baptist College in Pontiac, Michigan — an IFB college started in 1954 by Dr. Tom Malone. (Malone, by the way, had an earned doctorate from an accredited state school.) While at Midwestern, I met a beautiful IFB preacher’s daughter. Two years later, we married, and this July we will celebrate forty-seven years of wedded bliss. We are blessed to have six adult children, sixteen grandchildren, and four cats.
My ministerial career of twenty-five years took my partner and me to Evangelical churches (IFB, Southern Baptist, Sovereign Grace Baptist, Christian Union, and Nondenominational) in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. I left the ministry in 2005 and converted from Christianity in 2008. I am now an atheist and a humanist.
You claim you had an intimate relationship with Christ for many years, but now claim He never existed. It can’t be both.
People change their minds. When I was a Christian, I had an intimate relationship with Jesus. I was a sincere follower of Christ. And now I am an atheist. I learned over the years that religious faith is complex; that people, myself included, can hold beliefs that are not true.
I have never said Jesus wasn’t a real person. I am not a mythicist. I think Jesus was a Jewish apocalyptic preacher who was executed for his opposition to the Roman government. He was buried in an unknown grave, never to be seen or heard from again. What I reject are the supernatural claims made for Jesus.
You blame God for all bad things in the world, then claim God doesn’t exist. More bad logic?
If God is the sovereign creator of the universe, then, yes, he is responsible for the good and bad that happens in the world. I can make a solid theological argument for this claim; a belief, by the way, I held when I was a pastor.
I can easily defend my past beliefs if challenged. After all, the Bible can be used to prove almost anything.
Like I told Carolyn, you blaming God for everything bad, would be like me seeing a smashed Chevy and no longer believing in General Motors as a great company because they build automobiles that can be smashed by humans. Poor logic.
If God is in control of all things, then, yes, God is responsible for everything, including automobiles.
If Edgeworth wants to discuss or debate this issue, I am game.
You might want to reconsider being an atheist though, if God doesn’t exist then you can’t blame Him for all your failures and the failures of other people. Then the responsibility for you neglecting your family falls only on you. If God doesn’t exist, then you can’t blame Him for creating a world where bad things can happen.
As I have repeatedly stated, I accept responsibility for every decision I have ever made. I have been honest and open about the churches I pastored, detailing both my successes and failures. That said, I refuse to accept blame for things that were not my fault or over which I had no control.
As an atheist and a humanist, I accept and understand that bad things can and do happen, not only to me but to other people. I have had a rough road in life. Life is what it is. All I know to do is to learn from past experiences. I wouldn’t wish my childhood on anyone. Sure, I survived, but not without a hell of a lot of deep wounds and scars. As a 68-year-old man, most of my struggles these days are health-related. I have gastroparesis and exocrine pancreatic insufficiency — both incurable — osteoarthritis, fibromyalgia, and degenerative spine disease (that has left me with widespread disc damage in my neck and spine). In August, I had major surgery on my spine. Virtually every moment of my waking hours is dominated by debilitating pain and illness. I should note, before a Christian reader suggests that my health problems are God’s judgment for my unbelief, I started having health problems years before I deconverted. Countless prayers were uttered asking for deliverance or relief, without success.
I won’t be reading your blog that I am sure will be filled with more bad logic, but if you wish to communicate via emails that would be fine. I hope you get things straightened out in your mind so you can put things in proper perspective.
As far as getting straightened out, I am as “straight” as I can be. One hundred percent heterosexual. 🙂
When Edgeworth says “proper perspective” he means seeing things as he does, believing as he does. Remember, certainty breeds arrogance, and there’s nothing more arrogant than expecting and demanding that others believe as you do. That said, I am more than happy to embrace Edgeworth’s beliefs, provided he can give me empirical evidence for his claims. It’s really that simple. I operate on evidence. My goal is to believe as many true things as possible. That’s why I deconverted. The central claims of Christianity no longer made any sense to me. I expand my thinking on this subject in the post titled The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.
We humans mess up sometimes. Blaming a God Who you say doesn’t exist isn’t the answer. Just curious, will you be worshiping the Easter Bunny next Sunday?
I have sufficiently addressed your false claim above. Again, let me be clear, I give blame and credit to whom blame and credit are due. I do, however, worship my wife. Now, there’s a God worthy of worship. 🙂
Unlike Edgeworth, I do not worship inanimate or mythical beings.
Bruce, what you BELIEVE isn’t the REALITY of the way things ACTUALLY are. I know it makes things easier for you in the make-believe world you have built for yourself, which removes a lot of the responsibility for yourself.
Says who? What evidence do you have for this claim other than that you have convinced yourself that your worship and fealty to a mythical being is “reality.” It’s not. I am a materialist. Since God is an immaterial being and you cannot provide empirical evidence for his existence, “God” is not a part of reality (outside of having to live and interact with people who believe God exists and is personally involved in their lives).
Life is actually much harder for humanists. As a Christian, every belief and action was parsed through the teachings of the Bible. What the Bible said was all that mattered. THUS SAITH THE LORD! As a humanist, I have to develop carefully the moral and ethical framework by which I live my life. There are no humanist Ten Commandments, no humanist standard.
If God does exist, you messed up. But guess what, if God doesn’t exist, you still messed up and are still messing up. But now you are also responsible for all the people you are misleading. If you cared about others, instead of just yourself, you would want them to know the REAL TRUTH. Your whole blog or website is based on bad logic and delusion, and is leading people away from God instead of toward Him.
In what way am I “misleading” people? All I know to do is share my story. I don’t try to convert people to atheism. That said, scores of people have told me that I played a part in their deconversion. I don’t preach at people. I don’t comment on Christian websites. Seventeen years ago, I started blogging. My goal then is the same today: to honestly and openly share my story, answer questions people might have about Evangelical Christianity, and to help and encourage people who have deconverted.
If this blog is based on bad logic and delusion, I suggest Edgeworth either deconstruct my story and posts on his website or start a blog to do the same. He makes all sorts of claims about me, yet provides no evidence to support his contentions.
I wish you well. If you were ever IN the body of Christ, you can never be OUT of the body of Christ, that much is sure. You will be in HEAVEN someday, but think of all those who may not be because of your DELUSION, and anger, which should be directed mostly at yourself, not God.
Answered, answered, answered.
If there is a God, according to the IFB gospel, I will go to Heaven when I die. Awesome, right? Thousands of people who read this blog will someday be in Heaven, too. What a party we will have; millions of Atheist Christians praising logic, reason, skepticism, and common sense for their glorious deliverance from the bondage of Evangelical Christianity, complete with rock music, Holy Ghost marijuana, and a free grace bar. And what will Jesus do? He will probably join us. 🙂
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
