Today, I received the following email from an Evangelical man named Randy Willis. My response is indented and italicized. All grammar and spelling are in the original.
I saw your little Facebook post about Biblical marriage and wanted to share the truth with you.
What you want to share with me is your personal opinions and interpretations of the Protestant Christian Bible. Why should I listen to one word you say? You imply that you speak for God. What evidence do you have for this claim?
Jesus Christ is God who created man and woman. Male and female for the institution of marriage. They however chose to sin willfully.
First, you must provide evidence for the existence of God. Then you must provide evidence for that God being Jesus. Just because a book says something doesn’t make it true. Have you read the Harry Potter books? Why should I view the Bible differently from Harry Potter?
You wrongly think the Bible=truth. It does not. The Bible was written by mostly unknown men thousands of years ago. It is not in any way a moral/legal standard by which societies should or must govern themselves. The United States is a secular state. Currently, heterosexual and same-sex marriage are legal in all fifty states. Cohabitation and common-law marriages are recognized in most states. Marriage is a legal contract between two people. God/Bible has nothing to do with state-sanctioned marriage. You, Randy, are free to live according to moral and legal teachings of the Bible — albeit I am certain you do so selectively. No Christian follows all the teachings of the Bible. Why does it matter to you who marries whom? I can’t think of one thing that would materially affect your life if two women marry. Can you think of anything, Randy?
I don’t believe in “sin.” Sin is a religious construct used by sects and clerics to cause fear, keep asses in church pews, and money in offering plates. Evangelicals like you, Randy, are obsessed with who fucks whom, when, where, why, and how. Why is someone’s sex life any of your business. If I have a threesome tonight — God, I can only hope 🙂 — how does that materially affect you in any way?
I assume you believe in personal accountability and responsibility. I know I do. Explain something to me. Why is any of us responsible for Adam and Eve’s “sin”? We all come into this world “sinless,” yet Evangelicals teach that we are born with a sin nature; that we come into the world at variance with God. We have no choice in whether we become a “sinner.” Does that seem fair and just to you? When you look at a newborn, do you see a sinner who hates God, a little bundle of Hell deserving sin? I know I don’t.
The world would be a far better place if we banished “sin” to the dustbin of human history. Just imagine how much better the world would be if Christians stopped moralizing about the “sins” of others?
Because of sin marriage was perverted polygamy, sodomy and everything that was listed on that meme that was meant to mock God’s Word.
Of course, I meant the meme to mock God’s “word.” That’s the purpose of memes. That said, the Bible does permit and condone incest, polygamy, and other sexual relationships Evangelicals consider “sin.” In fact, the Bible commands the subjugation and rape of female children. You do know this, right?
“And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the Lord of Midian.
….
And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho. And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp. And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.“
Have fun with that one, Randy.And then we can talk about slavery and genocide.
Did Adam and Eve “pervert” marriage? How about Cain and Abel? If yes, what evidence do you have for this claim? We know that it is likely Cain and Abel married and/or had sex with their sisters. Was this incest? How would they have known it was incest since it would be long after their deaths that God gave Moses the law? You seem to be reading later history back into Biblical text or taking your personal moral standards and applying them to Adam, Eve, and everyone else who lived before the giving of the law. Is a behavior a sin if God has not forbidden it? Think on that one, Randy.
I know telling you the TRUTH will be met with how big of a hater I am . . .
Just because you capitalize the word TRUTH doesn’t make your claims any more truthful. If you want me or the readers of this blog to accept your truth claims, you are going to have to present evidence for them. So far, you have not done so. An assertion is not good evidence for anything.
I have no idea how big of a “hater” you are. It seems, at least to me, that you have a persecution complex. You sent me an unwanted, unsolicited email, Randy. Why did you do so? What did you hope to accomplish? Are you a hater? I don’t know. So far, all I know is that you are obsessed with what consenting adults do behind closed doors.
. . . but let me ask you this. If your house was on fire in the middle of the night would you rather I just keep driving? Or bust the door in and pull you out and save your life?
You sent me an email expressing your outrage over a meme I posted on social media. There’s nothing in your email that remotely fits your burning house analogy. (I do hope you would call 911 before trying to “save” me.) You didn’t even share the Christian gospel with me. Damn, this might have been the day I got saved had you shared the good news with me (as Trese did yesterday, and countless Evangelicals before you have done). Be honest, Randy, you are butthurt over a meme that makes your precious Bible/God look bad. Not my problem. Perhaps it is time to rewrite the Bible, getting rid of all the offensive shit. Man, Thomas Jefferson would be proud.
Your house is on fire (spiritually) and if you don’t truly put your trust in Jesus Christ soon you will be burning for eternity and will remember all the times you mocked and rejected Jesus Christ.
Why is it that Evangelicals always threaten me with hellfire and brimstone? You know I am an atheist. You know I don’t believe in the existence of God/Jesus/Heaven/Hell. What’s the point of threatening me with a place I do not fear nor do I believe exists?
Yes, I reject Jesus, and, at times mock the very dead, not-resurrected, not-virgin born, not-miracle working son of God. However, I would bet that I have read and studied the Bible, won more souls, and done more good works, than you have. Shall we have a dick measuring contest? I’m John Holmes, baby, when it comes to good works and loving Jesus. I spent most of my life, fifty years, devotedly following Jesus and following his teachings. Even now, I am a kind, decent, thoughtful person (though I have no patience for Christian assholes). Are you saying that the totality of my good works matters not, that the only thing that matters is me believing the right things? Are you not, then, preaching a gospel of “right belief”? What kind of monster is your God, Randy? Look at all the good works atheists, agnostics, pagans, Buddhists, and billions of non-Christians do. Yet, because they refuse (or out of ignorance, fail) to worship Randy’s God, when they die they will be consigned to the flames of Hell to be tortured by Randy’s God for eternity. If such a God existed, I wouldn’t worship him.
Richard Dawkins was right when he said:
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
— (The God Delusion)
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
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I’m wondering, Bruce, had you ever done an expositional series on those Numbers verses when you were a pastor? What was your explanation for the “difficult passage”?
I’m hedging my bet on your earlier incarnation as “Calvinist pastor Bruce” since I know that passage would never find its way into mainstream Evangelical sermons (or Anglican or Lutheran lectionary readings).
And in terms of belief in personal responsibility – I’m going slightly off-tangent here – I have always been puzzled by the story of the man of God in 1 Kings 13. He was basically killed by God for having been lied to by a more senior prophet. The latter claimed he had received a revelation that contradicted the earlier one given to the former.
But why was the first man punished since he was not deliberately rebelling? He could not have seen through the lie since God didn’t offer any additional confirmation, either.
And no, there were no written scriptures in those days (so he couldn’t be blamed for not being a “diligent Berean”) and the supposedly-common spiritual gift of discernment had not arrived yet.
(This gift was probably also in short supply in the churches Bruce pastored since nobody had ever successfully predicted that he “was never a true Christian” and “was never saved” before his deconversion.)
I never preached through Numbers. My “explanation” for difficult passages was either to ignore them or use the “God’s ways are not our ways” excuse. Best I can remember, I expositionally preached through Genesis, Daniel, Ecclesiastes, and parts of Exodus. I preached numerous one-off sermons from the OT. That said, the NT was my bread and butter. I didn’t preach through all the NT books, but I came close.
Another Bible-bot barging in where he’s not welcome and uttering threats. Must be a day that ends in “Y.” 🙁
I’m starting to think that each evangelical who comes to your blog studies a script that calls for them to “be condescending and judgmental and not make any converts, but at least I got to gloat that they would go to hell.”
So instead of defending the indefensible, he attacks Bruce the messenger? Isn’t this what happened to the prophets in the bible?
Why are all these idiots who want to convert us to stupidity always moralizing, homophobic, misogynistic twats? Is that a requirement for them to join their church? Inquiring minds want to know.
I am so bored with these evangelicals – all they want to do is feel superior by threatening others with hell.
Take it up with your God Randy Willis. He’s the author and finisher of your story.
Am I the only one who giggled over soneone named “Randy” pontificating about people’s sex lives?
Don’t folks like him understand that the verses they spout at us are often the very ones that caused us to see the Bible and organized religion for what they are?
Randy Willis’ response:
I appreciate your response.
Sadly friend and I am not trying to be unkind but it appears that you spent 50 years trusting in your good works and position as a pastor for salvation.
Then I don’t know you read something or someone planted a seed of doubt or what that’s between you and the Lord.
Good works can’t save anyone not even a pastor!
I’m a deacon and street evangelist and neither of those make me holy or righteous only by the grace of Jesus Christ through his suffering and death and resurrection do I have any righteousness!
Heaven and hell are real and there is more proof for the resurrection of Jesus Christ than there is for napoleons defeat at Waterloo.
It exists whether a person believes or not.
Salvation cannot be earned it is only by the grace of God through Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:8-9,Titus 3:4-6.
Jesus Christ was beaten to bloody shreds and was crucified to pay the penalty for sins (and yes sin exists if it doesn’t I encourage you to leave your door standing wide open the next time you go away for a few days and post that in the blog!)
Jesus rose from the dead to give eternal life in heaven and salvation from sin and hell.
Romans 6:23
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
There is only one way and it is through Christ by realization that you are a sinner and need him
Trust in him and him alone for eternal life
Millions will face him one day and will offer up how good they were and it won’t matter.
A person can do a million good things with one sin they are unclean before Christ who is Holy and righteous.
It’s like making a delicious 4 egg omelette with three fresh eggs and one nasty rotten egg.
Unacceptable to serve to you or anyone.
Or making a cake and adding just a small ounce of dog crap. Again disgusting ! And unacceptable to serve to anyone.
I encourage you to seek Christ and turn to him by genuine faith and receive his gift of eternal life.
Bruce says sigh Just remember, kiddies, your good works don’t matter. All that matters is believing the right things. What a truncated, empty gospel.
Randy said: “ there is more proof for the resurrection of Jesus Christ than there is for napoleons defeat at Waterloo. ” I’d sure love to see the evidence (proof) for this extraordinary claim. 😂 I won’t hold my breath.
Randy, listen up:
It is very rude to call someone “friend” unless they, themselves have chosen to be your friend.
When you say “Heaven and hell are real,” you assume the burden of proof and must now demonstrate the validity of your clam with testable physical evidence. The Bible is not acceptable as evidence, nor are near-death experiences, personal testimonies or “visions.” If we can’t literally take it to a lab to analyze it, it’s useless to us.
Furthermore, when you employ argumentum ad baculum in an attempt to scare people towards your “worship-the-dead-rabbi-on-a-stick-or-burn-forever” cult, you reveal something about your character that I find utterly repugnant and untrustworthy. There’s a legal term for what you’re doing, Randy: “Uttering threats.”
And a religion that values faith over works is fucking worthless as a guide to morality.
Suffice to say you’ve lost the sale.
Randy, you’re just another smug, condescending Christian who doesn’t care to understand those of us who are not. I once was, as was my husband, and he was a pastor for a time. But if we were still on the fence about Christianity, people like you are perfectly happy to push us OFF the fence over into hell. Your type of Christian is convinced that we are doomed, and you all get positively gleeful about predicting that. Quite frankly, the god you claim exists is not a loving god, or a good god, or a kind god. And you personally show how unloving he is with all your blather.
When people like Randy make claims comparing evidence for Jesus to real historical events I despair. Waterloo and Napoleon is not a good choice! I’ve been to Waterloo and I’ve seen the battlefield. It’s just sufficiently recent that we older folks will have had people alive in our lifetimes who themselves knew people who were alive at the time of Waterloo. Beethoven’s Eroica symphony stands testimony to Napoleon.
Jesus’ resurrection didn’t happen, and I defy anyone to produce satisfactory evidence otherwise. Even the very existence of Jesus is now disputed, with almost no evidence existing outside of the bible. So Randy can stand and make a fool of himself on as many street corners as he wants, or he can start educating himself.
Randy, Randy, Randy…
There is no historical account of Jesus outside of the biased, self documenting, circular argument called the bible. I could just as well say there is more evidence that Pegasus existed (don’t get me started on that), than there is that Jesus existed. Napoleons defeat at waterloo is very well documented from multiple, verified, contemporary sources. Not so for Jesus, who has one self serving source which is questionable in its historical veracity.
Why cant you understand some people have judged the christian faith, found the flaws, and deemed it unworthy of belief, and determined it to be wrong and harmful to many? Why do you insist on wasting time with people who have studied, analyzed, and judged you religion as worthless? And you have the audacity to try to judge how Bruce, or others here, lived their christian lives before they deconstructed the faith and escaped the bondage of christianity?
I make no effort to hunt down christians to tell them their faith is wrong. In fact, I would just as soon christians practice their faith without trying to pull me in, yet people like you keep coming at Bruce, me, and others. People like you keep trying to tell me how evil, perverted, disgusting and doomed I am. Live however you desire, but leave me and other non christians out of it.
Randy Willis: “I encourage you to seek Christ and turn to him by genuine faith and receive his gift of eternal life.”
Zoe: Next!
Randy Willis’ second response:
It is truly sad how the prince of darkness has blinded all of you to the truth.
The lake of fire is NOT a threat it is a real place where real people who die in their sins without Jesus Christ will spend a real eternity!
I would strongly suggest you watch the movie HEAVEN’S WAR.
Blessings,
CRW
I replied:
Randy,
If you want to have a discussion on these, and other, issues, please take it to my blog. You will find plenty of people willing to engage you.
If your goal is to preach — and it seems it is — please stop emailing me. You are not going to say anything I haven’t heard before (or said myself).
Thank you.
Bruce Gerencser
Bruce do you think these people are new Christians? I just don’t get how someone could think that sending messages like Randy’s would be either effective or believable.
I was going to say “…or a teenager?” but Randy claims to be a street evangelist, so I’d guess he was at least in his early 20s. He can’t be a very good one, though, if he’s using such cheap, thoughtless soundbites and expects them to be effective against Bruce and the Life and Times commentariat.
Some of them are, but others have been Christians for decades. Same bad arguments and bad behavior from both. Both Bob and David Tee are old men who have been Christians most of their lives.
Um….Randy… if the lake of fire is a real place, then, how is it not a threat? If, as you believe, it is real, and if , as you believe, you must be saved and follow the rules, otherwise you are punished in a lake of fire, then isn’t that a threat.
We hear the story of Lazarus of Bethany who was raised from being dead for 4 days, but then confusingly we are told that Jesus’s resurrection was the first fruits of those who rose from the dead by Paul in 1 Corinthians.
If Jesus was the first person to be resurrected from the dead, does this mean the story of Lazarus did not happen?
I wonder how Randy & Co can be so certain when there appears many inconsistencies in the texts of the bible.
Another difficult one for me was when Jesus said that “No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man” (John 3:13).
However, Elijah ascended into Heaven in chariots of fire.
One explanation I found was that Elijah ascended into the “sky” (or “lower” Heaven), not the “real” Heaven. Totally confusing and sounds like question-begging.
Probably the same would be said of the Lazarus story. Lazarus would die again, so it’s not counted as “real” resurrection. In short, the acts attributed to Jesus is assumed to be the only one of its kind. A bit stretchy.
And sometimes it’s very difficult in my case to have these doubts seriously entertained because you are supposed to “just believe”.
Oh, and don’t forget the youth from Nain in Luke’s gospel who was resurrected as his body was carried out of town. And also the daughter of Jairus. But probably it doesn’t count since they had not yet been interred. Also sounds question-begging.
Hi Randy,
You would probably dismiss my question straight away, but what if the real Hell is the traditional Catholic one? Where all Protestants, including Luther and Calvin, will be sent for the lack of Divine Grace imparted via the Holy Sacraments. I’m not trying to defend traditional Catholic viewpoints – I am not a Roman Catholic – but how do you know that you’re saved the right way?
I know you would probably say that the Catholics are not true Christians, but the thoughts of early Christian churches and Church Fathers are much closer to those of the Eastern Orthodox and Catholics than modern day Evangelicals. The Eastern Orthodox uses Greek as their ecclesiastical language – the language of the New Testament itself. Even Calvin the Reformer tried to justify his views by quoting early Church Fathers and theologians.
I’m just trying to show that there are many many viewpoints even within Christianity. Also, I don’t think it’s right for you to assume that Bruce or other readers on this blog aren’t already familiar with what you have to say.
In terms of documentation, the Moslems have successfully maintained a very well-documented collection of the sayings of their prophet. A valid saying is often cross-referenced by multiple witnesses with chains of witnesses extending back to the closest companions of the prophet. One of the oldest peer review systems ever devised.
I don’t think Christians can beat them in this regard. We don’t have direct quotes or details from the life of Peter or James or John that have reliably reached us (apart from those mentioned in the Gospel). Unless you want to depend on Church tradition, which many modern Evangelicals loathe to do (and are often ignorant of).
Wait so we’re supposed to use movies as evidence now? Wow, well I guess he should watch Loki…cause you know, movies are not make believe
Victor—I know for a fact that I will end up in the third pocket of the Seventh Circle of Hell. My evidence? Dante’s “Inferno,” Canto XXVI, 31-35.
The “Inferno” is no more factual than just about any movie that’s not a documentary or, ahem, the Bible. But even in a bad translation, it’s better than any of them—and sounds less artificial than the KJV!
I’m guessing Heaven’s War is another badly made Christian movie, that relies entirely on a non-scientific set of books (ie, Bible) and other non-provable concepts? Just a hunch.
Synopsis:
“Trapped between worlds! After a terrorist bomb explodes, US senator Jonah Thomas is forced into an epic battle fought somewhere between life and death, Heaven and Hell.
While FBI agents and terrorists fight for his life in one world, angels and demons wage war for his soul in another. Will Jonah learn the truth and find his way home before it’s too late?”
https://youtu.be/sHsOy-xY_-k
😂😂😂
Oh! It’s the usual schtick. 😉
You opened the door by putting yourself out there. Stop whining about the responses and emails you get, especially when you treat evangelicals in such a harsh manner.
Fuck off, David. I’m not whining. I’m just pointing out what insufferable assholes many Evangelicals are — including you.
Keep preaching the word, David. You are a far better preacher of atheism than I could ever be. Praise be.
Dear Dr. Tee,
Bruce might be harsh, but he’s the harshest on those people he believes are harming others through their power, be it political, social, or religious.
Setting aside whether being or following “the LGBTQ lifestyle” is sin or not, the fact remains that this group, and other minorities, are often the subject of very harsh and unfair treatment from Evangelicals. Hence the strong reactions that come from people who disagree with Evangelicals, especially those who have experienced the mistreatment first-hand.
And with all the abuses perpetrated by even the most prominent Evangelical leaders, a harsh pushback is probably needed.
Probably every “touch not mine anointed” and “God will destroy those who destroy His temple” (as per I Cor 3:16) can be balanced with “judgement will begin with the household of God” and that “teachers will judged twice as harshly”.
Also, I read quite a bit on this issue. Evangelicals even mistreat those who are celibate due to their religious commitment. Any little doubt and slight deviations from the official position, like the Nashville Statement, will result in a very stern rebuke.
No empathy shown, no “bearing each other’s burden”. Ironically, I think Bruce is onto something when he says that Evangelicals can be the best evangelist for atheism.
Gee, theo, Bruce is right. Every time you post here you are a complete jackass, proving that Bruce is right about you and your tribe. Where is that “love your neighbor as yourself” supposed to come in, before or after you gleefully try to rip Bruce to shreds?
BJW and Kel—David reminds me of the people who attack, or simply condescend to, me, then accuse me of “whining “ when I call them out or otherwise defend myself.
I think almost every member of a “minority “ group—which, in the US, includes non-Christians—has experienced something similar.
As a Christian you display the least of the character of Christ, which is good evidence that what you believe is false.
David Tee thinks evangelicals get treated harshly here? He should see how harshly, even cruelly, LGBTQ people get treated by evangelicals. And Bruce is spot-on that David Tee and others like him help atheism to flourish by displaying their bad Christian behavior. Many evangelicals simply are not good people, and David Tee’s behavior provides an ample demonstration of that. It’s understandable that so many Christians, especially young people, are fleeing their churches in droves. On the other hand, the goodness and intelligence of this nonreligious commentariat really shines, and I celebrate that this blog gets 400-800 new views on every post. How wonderful! Long may it prosper!
And your here still…😂. Must be really bitter.
Maybe all his readers are coming over here instead. 😀
Randy Willis: “It is truly sad how the prince of darkness has blinded all of you to the truth.”
Zoe: Next!
Randy Willis’ email to me:
Ok I will respect your wish and not email again. [yet, you emailed me again anyway]
I appreciate your response. And may come to blog for discussions later.
I do hope you will sincerely accept Jesus Christ before it is too late. [I already accepted Jesus — once saved, always saved, right?]
Atheists and Anti-Christians will one day wish they were at a water park…… [another cute threat of Hell]
Bruce, Randy just can’t help being a dick.
I won’t be wishing for a water park. Water parks are just giant Petri dishes.
Hey Bruce, you said what i always wanted to say. I’m a secularist and a humanist. Christians and other conservatives from all religions have no right to interfere in what 2 adults, consenting, do behind a door. Thank you for saying it. And ignore Randy. Tell him he desperately needs some bRandy to wash out the conservative scum in his stomach, heart, and brain.