Yesterday, a Fundamentalist Baptist man named Richard sent me the following email. My response is indented and italicized. All spelling and grammar in the original.
Hello Bruce. You might guess by my email moniker [saintnow] that this one’s going to be a doozy.
I make no judgments based on a person’s email address. I judge people based on what they say and do.
I have read a lot of your pages,
How many, exactly? Remember, I have access to the site server logs. Based on your email address, I know exactly how many pages you have read. Are you sure you want to go with “a lot of your pages?” Out of 4,000+ pages, Richard, how many did you actually read?
so I have an idea of what things will trigger what kind of reaction/response you might have.
If this is so, then why bother to contact me?
First, I want to say I appreciated your commentary about the IFB movement and the rise and fall of Emmanuel Baptist Church; which article finally triggered enough from me to offer my two cents.
Thank you.
I currently attend an IFB church. I’m wondering about it’s rising and likely future fall which I can almost prophecy is coming; following in the patter of the ministry of “the Doc”. I know the people at the church well and I see the trends which I believe will eventually bring the same results as befell Emmanuel. Your commentaries are very much in line with my observations about the faults and weaknesses…..achilles heels….within IFB circles.
The IFB church movement is a dangerous cult. There’s no such thing as a “good” IFB church. IFB beliefs cause psychological harm, and, at times, physical harm. My advice to people attending IFB churches is always the same: RUN!
It is probably impossible for me to convince you to change your mind as you have spent a lifetime arriving at your stance, and you will never convince me that your rejection of Jesus Christ could possibly be a valid decision for me.
You can certainly try to convince me to change my mind about God/Jesus/Christianity/Bible. All I ask is that you provide empirical evidence for your claims. Not bald assertions. Not subjective personal testimonies. Not Bible quotations. Actual verifiable objective evidence. So far, no Christian has provided me with sufficient evidence to warrant me changing my mind.
I am more than happy to look at your “evidence,” Richard. How about you look at mine? Let’s start with your belief that the Bible is inerrant and infallible. Better yet, have you read any of Dr. Bart Ehrman’s books?
As the young lady at Columbine who looked her killer in the eye and answered yes when at gunpoint she was asked if she believes in Jesus Christ before she was shot and killed, I too will gladly accept the honor of suffering for my Savior.
These words are meaningless. No one “knows” what they will do when in such moments. For the record, I think Cassie Bernall’s martyrdom story is largely a myth (as are many Evangelical testimonies).
Multiple reliable sources, including eyewitnesses who were with Bernall when she was shot, the teen who initially reported that she had been the one asked about belief in God, an audio recording and the FBI, determined within months of the massacre that Bernall was never asked the question at all.
Craig Scott, a student who was in the library, where Bernall and 11 others (including the two killers) died — and the brother of Rachel Scott, the first victim killed in the incident during the massacre, told investigators that he had heard one of the shooters ask a victim whether or not they believed in God during the shooting, and the female victim answered, “yes.” Scott, hiding under a table at the time, did not see the exchange, but told investigators the voice was Bernall’s. However, months later when Scott visited the library with investigators, he identified the wrong location for Bernall, pointing instead to where survivor Valeen Schnurr had been hiding.
Schnurr lay on the floor, injured. When one of the shooters, Dylan Klebold approached her, she said, “Oh, my God, oh, my God, don’t let me die.” Klebold asked her if she believed in God. She said she did, and when he asked why, she responded, “Because I believe and my parents brought me up that way.” Klebold did not shoot her again.
In addition, Columbine student Emily Wyant, who was hiding beneath a table next to Bernall, told investigators that Eric Harris had shot her without asking her any questions at all. He merely knocked on the table twice and said, “Peekaboo.” Another student hiding in the same location confirmed Wyant’s account. Wyant told Bernall’s parents that their daughter had not spoken to either killer prior to the publication of “She Said ‘Yes’,” written by Misty Bernall.
Investigators were aware that Bernall had not spoken with the killers early in the investigation, and even had an audio recording of what actually happened, courtesy of an art teacher.
You can proudly say that you spent your life learning to believe or disbelieve or however you want to call your philosophy and you too will proudly stand at gunpoint and insist there is no God before biting the bullet.
I am a man who lives by his convictions and hopes to die by them. There’s no God, Satan, Heaven, or Hell, so I have no fear over what awaits me. I am on the short side of life, with a few years, at best, to live. Instead of worrying about my nonexistent “soul,” I choose to focus on the here-and-now; on my beautiful wife; on my six adult children and their spouses; on my thirteen awesome grandchildren; on the work I do through this blog; on good food; on just enjoying the moments before me.
You know what the Bible says about that, so I’ll spare you the irritation of repeating it.
Why should I care about what an ancient religious text says about anything? The Bible has no authority, power, or control over me. The Bible is just words on pages.
Now, in hope that we both understand we will not persuade the other for or against Jesus Christ, I don’t know what else to say. I do hope to get a personal response from you, but I don’t expect it as it seems you have quite an enterprise to manage now.
Consider yourself “responded to.” 🙂
Congratulations for the success of your new ministry since denouncing the Word of God.
Thank you, even though you meant your comment sarcastically. I have a far greater reach today than I ever did as an Evangelical pastor. Day by day I continue to win souls, baptizing them in the name of reason, skepticism, and common sense. I implore you, Richard, to join the one true church. Membership is free, no tithing required. Don’t waste your life worshipping a God who does not exist; a Jesus who is dead; and a book that has little to offer twenty-first-century humans. Freedom awaits outside of the box. (Please see The Danger of Being in a Box and Why it Makes Sense When You Are In It and What I Found When I Left the Box.)
Richard later left a comment that said:
……..To the atheist (nothing personal, Bruce) So you insist God is a myth,
I am an agnostic atheist. Look it up. I think the extant deities created by humans, including Jehovah, Allah, and the triune God of Christianity, are myths. There may be a creator that has not yet made itself known to us, so I remain agnostic on the God question.
Are you not an atheist too, rejecting as myths all deities but yours?
and you are at least temporarily real I guess.
I am as real as you are, and I will be as dead as you will be someday. There’s no evidence that I know of that proves humans live after they die. Once we die, Richard, we stay dead. Even Jesus remains buried somewhere on a Judean hillside. Do you have evidence that suggests otherwise?
You insist there is no Hell to be saved from, no God to fear, no Savior to save you.
Yep, yep, and yep. Why do you continue to believe things for which you have no evidence?
Such a stance is nothing new, did it really take all that long to get there?
I have no idea what you are asking here. It took me fifty years to reach where I am today because I was deeply indoctrinated. Breaking free from Evangelical indoctrination and conditioning took time. Better late than never, even for you, Richard.
I guess there is no way out for you.
Way out? From what. You will find the following advice on my About Page:
“You have one life. There is no heaven or hell. There is no afterlife. You have one life, it’s yours, and what you do with it is what matters most. Love and forgive those who matter to you and ignore those who add nothing to your life. Life is too short to spend time trying to make nice with those who will never make nice with you. Determine who are the people in your life that matter and give your time and devotion to them. Live each and every day to its fullest. You never know when death might come calling. Don’t waste time trying to be a jack of all trades, master of none. Find one or two things you like to do and do them well. Too many people spend way too much time doing things they will never be good at.
Here’s the conclusion of the matter. It’s your life and you best get to living it. Someday, sooner than you think, it will be over. Don’t let your dying days be ones of regret over what might have been.”
I live by this advice each and every day.
And I guess it’s not a problem for you, so why should it be a problem for anybody else?
I have no idea what you are asking here.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
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Richard, why do you even bother ?? For one thing, when Bruce WAS a pastor, he was out there winning many souls over the years. And, people do change their outlooks from time to time. He’s not trying to persuade YOU to become an atheist, so who knows where you get this idea. As well as the fact that you say ” there’s no way out” for him- who are YOU to say one way or the other ! People do get epiphanies,you know. So keep attending that IFB church, and put your attention there. Straighten that place out,then.
Read his response more closely, he clearly would like me to join his “agnostic atheist” club. I’ll take a bullet between the eyes before I renounce my Savior. You are free to go with Bruce, I’ll go with Jesus.
the wannabee martyr. alas, poor Richard’s sadistic fantasies will never come true and he will be just like the rest of us.
Are you a martyr for atheism, or it’s intellectualized cohort, “agnostic atheism”? Why do you want me to be like “the rest of us” hoping (or insisting) death proves there is no Hell? For the life of me, I can’t understand why people want to go out that way except for pride. I understand pride. Are we not all full of it? Or is it only me?
Speak for yourself. I’m an atheist because that’s where the evidence leads.
Hi, Richard. I’m an agnostic atheist (and part-time goddess 😉 ) with a strong science background. I work in medicine and have a good knowledge of neurology.
EEGs. and humans’ experiences with dreamless sleep, are both excellent arguments against souls and eternal life. In order to be conscious and aware, our brains have to have brainwaves of 4 Hz or higher. Any lower than that, in the delta range, and we’re unconscious. At death the brain stops producing any waves and the rate drops to zero and stays there.
In the non-dreaming portion of nightly sleep, our brains are in the non-aware delta range under 4 Hz.
Now ask yourself this: If you’re not aware of yourself and your surroundings when you’re in dreamless sleep with a living brain, what makes you think that you’ll be aware of anything after death? Where was your soul last night when you were asleep but not dreaming, and why couldn’t it keep your “self” up and running?
This is why I think that eternal life is absurd, and believe that both heaven and hell are literally impossible.
Being quite alive, I would have trouble being a martyr for anything, Richard.
My wants have nothing to do with the fact that you will simply die just like the rest of us, having no magic prezzies in some “afterlife”.
Your lil’ sadistic fantasies will never come true. Tsk.
You are indeed full of it, dear Richard. You and your fellow theists who want to pretend that you are ever so special with your best friend god. Alas, you don’t agree on what this god wants and demonstrate that you are all just making nonsense up.
I’ve never tried to “convert” anyone. Not one time. That you “sense” this says more about you than it does me.
I hope you will ponder some of the things I wrote.
Thank you for commenting.
Bruce
I’m sorry to falsely accuse you of anything, you might want to clarify these comments from above:
I count it an honor that you have tolerated me enough to address me directly and openly.
“Thank you, even though you meant your comment sarcastically. I have a far greater reach today than I ever did as an Evangelical pastor. Day by day I continue to win souls, baptizing them in the name of reason, skepticism, and common sense. I implore you, Richard, to join the one true church. Membership is free, no tithing required. Don’t waste your life worshipping a God who does not exist; a Jesus who is dead; and a book that has little to offer twenty-first-century humans. Freedom awaits outside of the box.
It’s called “sarcasm.” I don’t evangelize. I write, people read and judge accordingly.
I read ten or twenty of your pages, not sure exactly how many……..much of your life story and current work. I thought that was a lot, I think I got a pretty good grasp of the basics, you are open enough that I get a pretty good idea of your character and reasoning……. I have deeply pondered atheism, agnosticism, (and Humanism, as outlined in “The Humanist Manifesto”), so please pardon me if I have not read what you consider “a lot” of your 4000 pages. Atheism’s rhetoric consists of around two dozen questions and statements presented as unanswerable, and agnosticism tries to complicate it with long and eloquent rephrasing of the statement or question of “We cannot know, can we? No, we can’t”. Thanks for enlightening me about the young lady at Columbine who was killed….I won’t use that as a reference again, but I will still stand as thousands or millions have refusing to renounce their Savior, even some who were thrown to the lions for refusing to do so. I’m sure you have heard of Foxe’s Book of Martyrs, were the Christians and their tales in that book also fabricated? I’ve read a lot on both sides, and you are saying a lot on both sides but really nothing new. If my additions here draw some interest to your site, ……well, good for you. I honestly do appreciate how you have worked and succeeded in your enterprise here.
I recommend you read The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom by Dr. Candida Moss. Many of the stories found in Foxe’s Book of Martyrs are either fabrications or lack corroborating evidence for their claims. That aside, people die for lies/myths all the time — Christians included. Most wars are fought based on lies, half-truths, and myths.
Religion need not be true for it to have power. Christianity is based on a myth, yet millions “believe.” How do we explain this fact. All we need to do is look at Christianity from sociological and economic perspective to explain its birth, rise, decline, and coming death. I view Christianity from a cost-benefits perspective. American Evangelicalism is dying because people increasingly believe the costs outweigh the benefits. When this happens in the business world — and Evangelicalism IS a business — businesses lose customers and close their doors.
I know how many pages you read (and what), so i’ll leave it at that.
There really no such thing as “atheism’s rhetoric”.
Yes, some atheists attempt to challenge Christianity, and maybe they use the rhetoric you were thinking of. But most atheists just try to get on with their lives, and are not interested in starting arguments with theists.
Yep. I see myself as a storyteller, not a defender of atheism. I have little interest in philosophical arguments or debating the existence of God. It’s not that I can’t do so — I can — but I find such discussions wearying; discussions that rarely change hearts or minds. After 15 years of blogging, I’m plum tuckered out when comes to arguing about “God.” In my angry atheist days I was more inclined to argue and debate, but I’ve mellowed out. 😂😂❤️❤️
Just thought I would again say I have indeed read what I thought was a lot of your material as it was interesting to me to see how a person progressed from becoming a professing and professional Christian to being an atheist……..and having spoken with several like yourself and seen many come and go in the churches I have attended, the next things intriguing me were the trends of status-quo behavior with “sins swept under the carpet” which brings the decline and fall of so many ministries such as Emmanuel.
I have been looking at your site from time to time for at least a year, maybe two, and I’m pretty sure at least once from a library computer in times I waited for my wife to do her business stuff away from home.
If you only go by how many pages I read from the time I first disclosed my email address, then I would say I have read a few of your pages meaning three or more. When I said “a lot”, I meant as I guess ten or twenty, I didn’t count exactly. It was enough then to have a pretty good idea of your character and life story which I found very interesting as well as some of the most recent pages I read which you can verify of course, about times at Midwestern and Anderson Honda. You have been in the stomping grounds of my younger days and probably personally know or knew some of the people I knew in that area.
Though I am known for tendencies to be brusque, I have tried with you and with your commenters to keep my level of brusqueness at least a notch below anybody conversing with me. I will not approach anywhere near the level of brusqueness you threw at me with the last extremely vulgar comment you addressed to me. In what I have read of you, which I appreciate, you want people to be respectful toward you with some clearly spelled out things you do not want them talking about or saying on your site. I thought I was following your guidelines respectfully while the manners of some of your commenters were quite insulting and abusive toward me. It’s your site, you are the moderator, and I came to read your stuff and maybe talk with you, not their stuff and talk with them. It didn’t take much for you to go far beyond the measure of bad manners with me for which I may once or twice object to before walking away and keeping my distance from those who cannot control their feelings enough to express themselves with a measure of respect.
You have my email address if you want to talk with me, I won’t be back here if I must conclude the sole proprietor of the site is going to be off the charts vulgar in his reaction toward me.
I hope you find and keep peace in life……..if it’s not eternal, it’s not life, it’s only dying. I see no reason to visit your site again.
My Gawd, Richard, stop your whining. Your fee-fees got hurt all because I used a dick metaphor? Grow up. How about taking the time to understand the metaphor and respond accordingly?
I refuse to have my language policed by anyone. Don’t like my language? Don’t read my writing. It’s that simple.
http://brucegerencser.net/2020/05/christian-swear-words/
I gave you far more space comment-wise than I’ve given other Evangelical zealot. Too bad you wasted your opportunity to thoughtfully engage me and the readers of this blog. Look at your last comment. You spent your time attempting to justify your exaggeration (lie?) about how many posts you’ve read on this site, whining about a dick metaphor, chastising me about my behavior,and dissing other commenters. You then picked up your toys, stomped your feet, and went home. That’s another metaphor.
You are free to visit, Richard, but as far as commenting is concerned, you’ve said your peace.
All praise be to Loki, my God, Savior, and Friend. May the peace of Thor be upon you, and may I see you again in Valhalla.
Bruce
Also, once again Richard has to be passive-aggressive and threaten us with not deserving eternal life. “…if’ it’s not eternal, it’s not life…” Even though I hope for life after death, I recognize that having a life now matters. Richard is upset that I said his comments weren’t worth anything. He can’t understand that after you, Bruce, have spent thousands of comments on people coming on here and judging us, while pretending to be polite, we just don’t have any fake politeness to give back.
Who are YOU? I simply stated the facts of atheistic (or “agnostic atheism”, i.e., intellectualized atheism) belief…….no way out of death, insisting there is no Hell to be saved from, no God to fear, and no Savior to save you so you have no way out of your predicament. That is not my problem, is it? As long as Bruce tolerates me here, and I am inclined to engage, and God permits (no offense Bruce, God could take me out before you put me out if you end up doing that)…….I may comment. Don’t be bothered by me, you probably have enough problems without me.
Richard wrote a completely pointless letter.
That’s kind of insulting to Bruce, isn’t it? Since he seemed to think there was some points worth responding to. Are you saying Bruce wastes his time on pointless things?
Since you seem to have missed it, the main point is that I appreciate Bruce’s insight into the faults and weaknesses of IFB churches….and there are some like me who will never renounce their Savior at any cost.
Richard, I’ve been reading and commenting on Bruce’s blog for a decade. I consider him a friend. No matter what Bruce picks to use in his column, his examples are not pointless. Anything of worth from your letter was from Bruce’s comments on it. But literally every single person of your type who comes here says THE. EXACT. SAME. THINGS. EVERY TIME. So yes, I can consider your words pointless without insulting Bruce.
Well, I guess Bruce didn’t think it was all that pointless so Bruce sees points better than you I guess.
Atheism keeps your brain boxed in. God is on the other side of that box. Atheism’s point is is the period at the end of the sentence. It is consumed by that little point at the end of the sentence.
And by the way, you are the same type of person as me which is a sinner, or human as the atheist might prefer to eulogize themselves by.
http://brucegerencser.net/2020/10/danger-box-makes-sense/
http://brucegerencser.net/2022/02/found-left-box/
Except I’m neither an atheist nor an agnostic. So you are leaping to an inaccurate assumption, as I’ve never stated I am. Also, you expect everyone here on this blog to treat you kindly, without making judgments, but yet you are making your own.
Also, I’m not worried about “sin.” I’m worried about doing bad things that hurt myself or others. And if you met me in person, you would consider me to be a boring, conservative-living person who takes care of others. I’m not going to say I’m chock full of virtues, but I do consider love the most important thing. But not fake Christian love, where a Christian comes here and mentions sin and how we are lost and going to hell. (BTW, I have some lovely Christian friends, who I consider the finest of people who are loving. They wouldn’t talk like this to non-Christians.)
Also, I imagine while many of us are weary with fundamentalists coming here and commenting, and therefore are sharp, I wouldn’t be at all that way in person. I also wouldn’t be interested in talking religion either, but connecting on another level. But we’re on Bruce’s blog, and he attracts all the fundamentalists who claim to care about him, who (almost) always end up implicitly or explicitly consigning him and us to hell. We don’t believe in hell, but it’s still an ugly threat, Richard.
ah, the usual lying Dick.
This response is worth more than your comment.
In what way, Richard? You have demonstrated that you have no problem in lying and thus ignoring your bible and the god depicted therein. Why would I think that your religion is true if you don’t?
” I’ll take a bullet between the eyes before I renounce my Savior. [sic]”
A greater likelihood that he’ll die in a car accident or from piles than that actually happening. But had he acknowledged that reality, we would have missed out on the melodrama.
Comment from Richard deleted for violating comment guidelines
I’ll try again, not sure why my first attempt was deleted, I’ll try to say the same thing with a little sugar coating, though the fact that we all face death and it may come completely unexpected at any moment is not easy to sugar coat. I simply stated I will not renounce my Savior even at the cost of my own life the same as Bruce says….”I am a man who lives by his convictions and hopes to die by them. There’s no God, Satan, Heaven, or Hell, so I have no fear over what awaits me.” That is a respectable statement. If you don’t respect me saying I will not renounce my Savior, even at the cost of my own life, that’s not my problem. Are you less martyr than me?
None of us plan to be martyred for atheism. When Evangelicals turn the United States into a theocratic state and demand everyone worship their peculiar deity, I will gladly bow a knee to stay alive (and secretly work to destroy the state). The only people I’m willing to die for are my wife, children, and grandchildren. I have no belief I’m willing to die for, nor am I willing to die for the red, white, and blue. I can do nothing after death, so the goal is to to live. Martyrdom is the realm of delusional fanatics, be they Christians, Muslims, or “patriots.”
Well I certainly don’t plan on being martyred, but I will not renounce my Savior even if it costs me my life, . If I were an atheist or agnostic, it would be quite natural for me to lie and say God’s name is Allah, or Jesus is God, or whatever, to get myself out of torture or execution. It’s understandable if people do that so they can fight against the oppressors and for the people they love, or even if they only want to save their own hide for the moment.
Per the comment guidelines which you were provided, please use the same name/email address for your comments.
“Well I certainly don’t plan on being martyred, but I will not renounce my Savior even if it costs me my life, . [sic]”
I recall a story about one Simon Peter who made the same boast. Tell us: how did that play out?
used the wrong name by mistake….thanks for explaining. Richard is my real name, for some reason I didn’t even think of using a different handle here……it slipped. Goodnight, Bruce.
“used the wrong name by mistake….thanks for explaining. Richard is my real name, for some reason I didn’t even think of using a different handle here……it slipped. Goodnight, Bruce.”
ROFL. Oh my. I do love incompetent theist liars. Alas, poor Richard whines about his religion but can’t show that his version is the right one, or that any Christian has the right version. He goes on about his god, but we have dozens, if not far more, versions of Christianity, and those Christians have merrily murdered each other over their differences. We can see Richard’s rather curious version since he seems not to think that Jesus is God, which would mean he’s some kind of antitrinitarian. “If I were an atheist or agnostic, it would be quite natural for me to lie and say God’s name is Allah, or Jesus is God, or whatever, to get myself out of torture or execution.”
Richard–I was an Army Reservist. What did I learn from it? Not what they intended: that you shouldn’t martyr or sacrifice yourself for any abstract idea or institution. All through history people have died for deities (or an interpretation of them) and nations (or some idea of them). Most of those deities are not worshipped by anyone anymore; one day (probably not in my lifetime), no one will live or die for the deities of the Abrahamic religions, just as no one will die for any current nation or ideology. Why? They are all social constructs, and all social constructs (including race and binary gender) have an expiration date.
You remember that old Army Recruitment ad: “Be all you can be.” Well, the Army helped me to do that, if not in the ways they intended. (They also said I needed to learn how to be a man. They were right: I needed to learn how to be a man–so I could be a woman!)
A deity is a created thing. God who created all things is the only true deity who was there before any thing with an imagination could invent things they call deities, and there before any of the things he created could imagine themselves to be their own personal deity with a beginning. God had no beginning, and the things you call deities were in your mind started with a beginning in the minds or desires of people who had a beginning of their existence.
If you have decided there is no God, and God is not there, you don’t have to try to justify that by implying created things are the same as The Creator of All Things, the one and only God.
You were born as a man, a little one, and I appreciate you being there while I have enjoyed the relative peace and security of the USA. All you can be is really no more than what you are, is it? Unless you are becoming a god which is the false promise of a few billion more years of evolution……..so your descendants will eventually be mutated upward beyond out current human limitations to become gods, “masters of the universe”.
I will die for my sins, I do not die for my Savior, He died for me, If I find somebody with God-given power to end my time in this world, and they promise me reprieve if I will renounce the name of my Savior, I will say something like, “Dear God, don’t lay this sin to his charge, thank you Jesus for saving my soul” and I would then be a true martyr. My point about atheists being martyrs for their religion is that they are going out as martyrs, defying God, and daring Him to prove He has the right to reject them and leave them in eternal dying of the Lake of Fire. And it’s Bruce’s site, he intends to go out that way, and I say you are free to go with Bruce and prove your faith in what you believe or don’t believe or whatever twist of semantics atheists/agnostics like to jump around with….I will go with Jesus, God who became the sacrificial Lamb who fully paid my price to buy me out of what I have earned by my sins.
Yep, there it is, the truth of christianity in a few simple words. Christians can’t simply disagree and allow others to live their life their lives in peace. Instead, christians must first display their bigotry by insulting someone – in this case misgendering her – then follow,up,with the tried and true hellfire and eternal condemnation speech, then double down by centering themselves as the example of how Christian’s should live, or, as you endlessly point out, die
Christian self righteous speech outline:
1 introduce unprovable christian doctrine
2: display disdain for person you are addressing. Belittle them with insults, bigotry, or any word that will make them lesser than you. Remember to add you do this out of love.
3: offer testimony to center yourself as the shining example,of how you would or will follow god. Be sure to include your willingness to suffer and die.
4: repeat step 2 to reinforce prior hate or bigotry
5: tell them they are going to hell, but you are saved, and you future is to be standing by god, your arms folded as you smugly look aat them suffering in hell and say “see, I told you and now you suffer for your sick life.
6: offer to pray for the (the key step you missed)
You could have stopped after the first 2 paragraphs and made a point refuting MJ’ statement, but no….not you. Christians, particular a conservative christian, can not pass up a chance show their true hateful, bigoted nature.
Sage–Thank you so much for your response. The next time someone misgenders or otherwise belittles me, I will remember that they are doing it out of “love.” Christian love, to be exact,.
Also, I am going to save the “six steps” you outlined. You should make them better known: They are a good roadmap for anyone navigating around Christian (or other kinds of ) bigotry.
Richard,you keep harping about ” taking a bullet between the eyes,no one can make me renounce Jesus/ my savior.”. No one here, least of all Bruce, has asked you to do such a thing ! Plenty of Christians stop by and read the blog,and they’re still believers, now, aren’t they. No one is pushing you to drop your beliefs, and often Bruce will make sly comments that are funny. You seem to take each word literally. Now cut the hysterics and calm the 😗😗😗😗down !
You’re calming down, aren’t you? Isn’t that the promise of atheism, to be calmed down? Atheism for which you are acting like a martyr? You jumped on me and I responded. It’s not me who needs to calm down.
Atheism doesn’t make promises. “Atheism” is just the name used to refer to those who have no god beliefs.
Hi Richard,
The bible has barbaric passages in it. It’s God, on occasions, approves of rape, the slaughter of little children and babies, slavery, killing people for minor things like picking up sticks on the Sabbath etc.
This God doesn’t exist. Virgins don’t give birth. No guy has ever levitated into the sky. Miracles don’t occur. It’s all made up by ignorant savages who created their God in their own image. Why believe all the bull of the bullybull.
Make kindness your aim! This requires no holy books, no religious gurus to parse them, no places of worship,
I hope you consider abandoning religious Fundamentism. You’ll be much better for if. If you wish to remain a Christian, why not choose Progressive Christianity or perhaps Christian atheism?
Your life is facing a barbaric end, is it not? I hope you abandon your hope of getting out of reality and being free of condemnation in death. Your hope is not a wise hope……you want me to hope in death? No thank you.
My life is facing the same end as yours. When we are dead we are dead. End of discussion. All the extant evidence suggests this is true.
Richard, there is no condemnation in death. Death is the end of all condemnation, all judgement, all thought, all belief, all hope.
“Progressive Christianity” or “Christian atheism”……you’re a comedian, right? How do I kindly say you are completely wrong. You won’t listen to reason or you would do the research yourself and see that everything you have asserted is easily countered and nullified.
You’re insulting my intelligence and being disrespectful to me and you are going to lecture me about “make kindness your aim”?
I kindly beg you to spare me your intrusions.
Progressive Christianity and Christian Atheism are both things. Do your homework.
Hi, Richard. Since it seems that Bruce hasn’t kicked you out, and since you seem to be making an effort to remain civil, I’d like to offer you a couple of thoughts. Feel free to ignore me if you like — I know that trying to respond to a whole bunch of people at once rapidly becomes overwhelming and then impossible — but I hope you’ll think a bit about this.
Really nothing of what you’ve told us here is new to any of Bruce’s regular readers. (I suppose there’s always the chance that someone new might wander in, but even so: you’re re-treading fairly well-worn ground.
Pretty much nobody here is particularly interested in trying to convert you to atheism, or even agnosticism. (Which is not to say that there aren’t atheists who would like to, just that such is really not the vibe here.) On the other hand, because a lot of your points are retreading well-worn and/or unnecessary ground, they may be met with exasperation or irritation. It would be a mistake to confuse that with an attempt to convert you.
As a result of the previous two points, you’re actually missing an opportunity here. If the unbelievers here (and to be clear, I’m one of them) are wrong about Christianity, please also be aware that you are likewise deeply wrong about why we don’t believe and how that works. And you’re missing a chance to gain a better understanding and possibly even make some personal connections — though I seriously doubt that anybody here is any more likely to convert (or more likely return) to Christianity than you are to turn away from it.
I will tell you plainly that you have no idea how to talk to non-believers about religion, and that’s because you don’t have any understanding of why we don’t believe. I’m sure you think you do, but the people who told you why we don’t believe were, well, people who do believe. At the risk of being entirely too blunt about it, they’re basically making shit up to make themselves feel better. And yes, I include the Apostle Paul in that category.
I know the accusations. We’re “suppressing the truth in unrighteousness”. (No, we seriously believe that there truly is no God.) We “want to be free to sin”. (No, people who want to be free to sin just do their sinning, and then ask for forgiveness later if at all. Also, our conception of evil and sin is often fundamentally different from what Christianity describes.) We’re “angry at God”. (See point one, but also if God actually exists and is actually all-powerful, what the hell good would pretending that He wasn’t there do for us?) We claim to be atheists because it’s considered “smarter” or “superior” or “more intellectual”. (First of all, in a majority-Christian nation, it’s not actually beneficial for us, and second — while there are definitely some atheist with pride-related issues — no, we claim to be atheists because we actually don’t believe that God exists.)
Christians start trying to tell me why I don’t believe, and it makes me wonder what color the sky is in their private little world.
So ask. Ask me why I don’t believe, and I’ll do my best to answer you. But until you understand why I don’t, you will never be able to convince me that I should.
Michael, your explanation of the atheist stance is excellent. And kind. I hope Richard reads it.
What Michael Mock said is accurate.