Twice in the past week, Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) preachers have told me that I am demon possessed; that I never was a Christian; that I was a deceiver and false prophet. Today, in an article for The Christian Post titled Can Christ-worshipers turn into demon-worshipers? Evangelical Calvinist John Piper had this to say about people like me:
No genuinely called and justified Christian ever falls away into demon worship — not permanently, anyway.
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[Piper said the question pertained to people] who’ve been in the church for years and are outwardly identifying as Christian and yet are not truly born again and end up being swept away into the teaching of demons.
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The danger of seduction by deceitful spirits and teachings of demons is always present throughout this fallen age, from the time of Jesus till Jesus comes back. They’re always there. But there will be a greater temptation as the end of the age approaches and the Lord draws near.
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Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
In other words, the mystery of lawlessness will have a huge impact on nominal Christians, whose love for Christ is shallow and unreal. They will grow cold. Their resistance to the deception of demons will give way and they will not endure to the end.
Devout followers of Jesus are leaving Evangelicalism in droves; people who were pastors, evangelists, missionaries, youth leaders, worship leaders, and college professors, to name a few. These folks dedicated their lives to worshipping and serving Jesus. Everything in their lives said to the world, “I am a born-again child of the living God.” When critics are asked for evidence to justify their harsh criticisms, none is provided. Instead, unsubstantiated accusations are leveled against former servants of the Most High.
The root problem is theological. The IFB preachers mentioned above believe that once a person is saved, he can never, ever lose his salvation. Piper, a Calvinist, believes this too, but with this caveat: a believer must endure (persevere) to the end (death) to be saved. The first fifty years of my life testify to faith in Christ; to devotion to God, the Word, and the church. Years ago, a family member said to another, upon hearing of my deconversion, “If Butch isn’t a Christian, nobody is.” I have had former congregants tell me that they could no longer be friends with me; that they find my story disconcerting, causing them to doubt their own salvation. Fourteen years ago, a dear preacher friend of mine begged me to keep quiet about my loss of faith. He feared that some people upon learning of my deconversion, could become so troubled that they too would lose their faith.
People who knew me are left with an irreconcilable conundrum. They listened to my preaching and observed my behavior. They know I was a Christian in every way. Yet today, I am an outspoken atheist; an enemy of God; a mocker of all things holy and true. My writing repudiates everything I once believed. Some former associates believe I am still saved — just backslidden; that I will either one day return to the faith or God will severely chastise or kill me. Other associates, those of Arminian persuasion, believe I have fallen from grace; that I once was saved, and now I am not.
Preachers such as the aforementioned IFB pastors and John Piper take a different tack. Instead of acknowledging my past devotion to Jesus and the testimony of scores of people about my love for God, they dismiss my story out of hand, saying that I was never what I and others say I was. These critics only know me from afar, yet they feel more than qualified to render judgment. What they are, in effect, saying is that I am lying about my past and that the people who speak glowingly about my preaching and love and care for others are misinformed or deceived. In their minds, I have always been a deceiver, someone who, at the very least was and is influenced by the Devil and demons, or actually possessed by demons.
I get it. My story and those of other ex-preachers and church workers are troubling and challenge the assumptions many Evangelicals have about people who leave Christianity. “How can these things be,” they say to themselves, and instead of taking a hard look at their theological beliefs and presumptuousness, they take the easy way out by calling former believers names or claiming they are demon-possessed. Anything except wrestling with why an increasing number of devoted followers of Jesus are exiting the church stage left, never to return.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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I was going to ask about the soteriological beliefs of John Piper, based on his statements, but you answered that – one must persevere in belief until the end. Still, he employs the “no true Scotsman” argument. Wouldn’t it be consistent enough to just say, people like Bruce and me and the rest of the deconverts just didn’t persevere rather than claiming that we never were believers? I was a believer. Now I am not.
I cannot attest to the working of demons in my life. I don’t see evidence of demons or any other supernatural entities, and thus I don’t believe they are real. If they are real, I hope they’re having fun.
Piper is a five-point Calvinist, as was I, and though I am not an expert, when Piper uses the word “believer” he means more than just mere mental assent. To be a true believer means to be especially regenerated by the Holy Spirit of God and given a true, spiritual faith by God. If that sounds like mysticism on steroids, it is, IMHO. The theology short-circuits the “No True Scotsman” rebuttal by using the concept of regeneration and spiritual true faith as somehow distinct from mere mental belief/assent, but without being able to actually prove that underlying assertion. It is not about personal sincerity so much (though that is indeed implied, that you cannot sincerely love and believe in God without this regeneration and true spiritual faith given by God), but more about has God shown your elect status by regeneration and conversion to Christ, or did you fall away and prove that it is more likely that you are not elect (proved by never repenting and reconverting during life after falling away). Calvinism is pretty funny, though. According to the theology, even a committed atheist and well-reasoned skeptic like Bruce Gerencser could conceivably be Elect, was never truly regenerated and converted before, and could be regenerated and truly converted at a future date. However small that possibility is, mysticism on steroids or not, it is indeed possible theologically. It’s ironic to me that I was so deep into Calvinism and these days I find myself just as deeply agnostic (pragmatically atheist) and apostate for all practical purposes.
Bryoniac, I have the impression that Calvinists think if themselves as “elect” and don’t give half a sh!t about anyone else!
I was an anomaly as a Calvinist. One of my IFB friends found me quite confusing. We would preach on the street and witness to people. My behavior, in his mind, wasn’t something Calvinist did. And he was right. Calvinism kills evangelism. I believed that I couldn’t know who was elect, so I felt it to be my duty to witness indiscriminately.
What if I don’t want to be elect? Do I have a say in the matter? 🤣🤣 Of course not. If I’m elect, God will drag me to Heaven whether I want to go or not. 🤣
In their minds, true faith always endures to the end. That said, Calvinists believe in conditional salvation. We can’t know for certain we are saved until the end, and even then, we might hear Jesus say, “ha, ha, the joke is on you. You never were elect. You were deceived your entire Christian life.”
Demon slaying is now apparently in vogue. An IFB relative recently went on and on about (hate preacher) Greg Locke and his rent-a-theatre production about demon slaying (“Come Out in Jesus Name”). Of course it’s not completely new in the evangelical circles (Bob Larson had his big bad exorcisin’ cross o’ deliverance). But I have to wonder about the source of the demon talk. It is unlikely to be a coincidence.
Bruce, your new headshot leaves a lot to be desired. Where did you end up going, Penney’s photo studio? Gawd. Looks like you didn’t use sunscreen when you went fishing the day before. That sunburn! And I gave you the name of that makeup artist. Why didn’t you call her? And the teeth whitener I suggested? You didn’t use it, obviously! At least Polly listens to me, no wonder she looks great. I give up. 😄
@Karuna Gal
Whoa… That’s a good point. If you’re going to get tossed asunder into the wide road of demondom, why not go for a sexy incubus look or possibly a more modest look that exudes diabolically handsomeness? That stock pic looks like an imp with attitude, a definite lower planes DON’T.
You’re right, Troy. Evil is supposed to alluring. How many souls will Bruce lead to damnation when he looks like that? None! He’ll never fulfill his quota and His Satanic Majesty will dock him. Maybe you can try to talk some fashion sense into Bruce. I’ve tried like hell, no luck. 😄
So YOU are the problem? 🤣🤣🤣
Bruce: Me?! As someone trained in cosmology, er, cosmetology, I speak as a concerned friend. You won’t get to the top of the Hellfire and Brimstone sales team unless you do a complete makeover! That red-lit “imp with attitude” headshot on this post is so last 900 A.D. 😄
You know, I’m not an atheist, although I think I technically am an agnostic, at least, from a Christian POV. (I consider myself a hope-there-is-a-god-but-can’t-prove-it universalist.) But from where I sit I don’t understand people of faith being upset at others who leave that faith. Oh, I get that there are people worrying about our lives after death. Caring about people who may burn for all eternity due to failing a loving god seems pretty standard.
These ministers need a bad guy, and it’s not enough to believe in the devil. They have to point at a human such as Bruce, who is one of the quintessential anti-Christians: loving, caring of all people regardless of faith or creed or color, allied with LBGTQ+ community, humanist, socialist(!), pro-choice, accepting of people no matter what. All of the things that threaten white Christian male privilege.
They claim to want to be allowed to follow their faith without us imposing, all while working feverishly to impose on the rest of us. They are just a study in massive projection and it’s tiresome.
BJW–Your parenthetical sentence sums up what I more than likely thought before I stopped believing. As someone who considers herself an agnostic atheist (i.e., someone who doesn’t believe but does not rule out the possibility of a higher being or force), I completely respect your position.
Byron–“Mysticism on steroids” is the phrase of the week. “Spiritual regeneration” sounds like the “born again” experience that were so en vogue during the 1970s. I thought I had such an encounter when I was an Evangelical Christian. When I was starting to doubt the inerrancy of the Bible and, later, my faith, I wondered whether I actually had a “born again” experience or “spiritual regeneration.” I’ve since come to the conclusion that it was a manifestation of mental health conditions which had something, if not much, to do with my then-inability to come to terms with my gender identity and the sexual abuse I experienced.
Karuna and Troy Heck –Shame on you for holding Bruce (or anyone else) to White, Euro-centric, heteronormative and cisgender-based (Did I get in all of the proper academic terminology?) aesthetic standards. 😉
Demon and Obstacle–I feed my demons very well before slaying them. Then I treat myself to the most amazing feast. Since demons aren’t corporeal beings, I don’t get into trouble with my vegan friends.
MJ, you keep feeding those demons! I’ll feed mine too!
He is not Demon possessed.
He is however very very deceived.
How do you KNOW I’m not demon possessed?
What, exactly, am I deceived about? Time to wade in Jim. Bring your A game. 🤣❤️
Jim, you don’t live inside Bruce’s head, so how do you know ? I really feel now that in America at least, if you are a believer in Jesus, you’d have to leave most of the churches in the country just to keep sane ! This is the main reason people are leaving in droves, all the nonsense and craziness, meanness and greed,to name a few urgent flaws. How many people with toxic parents, narcissist mothers in particular- will be forced to sit through a ridiculous Mother’s Day service this morning, for example. ☢️ Guilted into attending this farce . My own parents are long dead, this day isn’t on my radar, laundry is. So many churches will claim,that if you leave THEIR church, and won’t sit under their leader’s teaching, that you have to be demon- infested. They just can’t accept any other reason for being dumped ! All because of $$$
You prefer to follow examples like that of one of Bruce’s main detractors, a man who, in complete contravention of 1 Timothy 5:8 and Romans 13:1-7, abandoned his child, fled the United States, and changed his name to evade a child-support order … and then demanded, in this forum, that I apologize to him for making these entirely truthful statements?
How in the world Jim do you know who and who is not demon possessed? Do you have special powers from your God that inform you?
Pastors, preachers, church workers, church members leaving in droves? What? I see new converts coming in droves but we ought not put that out there right?
That broad wide path to destruction has so many so called Christians & preachers on it, let’s not be fooled. The narrow path that few find and enter in that narrow gate is what counts. It’s not a popular road to travel, nope, just can’t do it your way on that road so you leave it. You can make all the excuses in the world as to why you left that road that you were drawn to or called to but you left. God ain’t forcing anyone on it. The saddest most regrettable thing was to turn from God that drew you. Worse is undoubtedly you were never called to teach, preach the living Word & pastor. Great judgment awaits you and you know it
Put up or shut up. Please provide data that proves your claim about Evangelicalism/IFB church movement. Be prepared to be embarrassed, Dude.
The god you worship doesn’t have much to do with love. Because a “loving” god wouldn’t burn fallible humans, who live a mere few decades, to suffer in agony and torment for, not a million, not a billion, not a trillion, but FOREVER. This is the type of love I call “abuse.” And it’s cruel and vicious. I guess that explains how people like you end up being glad that others could burn forever, as you all seem to enjoy the cruelty to those different from you.
Lemar Sipes: “Great judgment awaits you and you know it”
Zoe: Great judgment. Is that worse than plain old regular judgment? And what do you know Lemar? How do you know God isn’t forcing anyone? After all, God does the calling? Right?
Yep, there is is again…you will suffer and burn in hell.
It must be a great thing to be so righteous you do not have to think or even show love and concern for others, especially those who are “lost.”
Now why didn’t someone in the Bible talk about loving others, even if it takes personal sacrifice, and making them the most important thing? Even better, why didn’t one of these bible people become a living example of caring for people that others hate. Apparently rules are more important than anything and no one called them into question? It’s almost like something is missing…
Something red…
Wow, I just don’t understand…