Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen, is on a downhill roll lately, complaining, bitching, whining, and raging about me and my British friend Ben Berwick. Today, Thiessen wrote a post titled, Christians Do Not Have to Provide Proof, directly contradicting what the Bible says in 1 Peter 3:15: But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect.
What follows is my response to Thiessen’s post. All spelling, grammar, punctuation, and irrationality in the original.
The unbelieving world is always demanding that Christians prove their faith is true.
I have NEVER asked a Christian to “prove their faith is true.” Faith, by its very nature, is beyond investigation. However, the claims Christians make can and must be investigated to see if extant evidence justifies, verifies, and bolsters their claims. If Thiessen wants atheists to buy what he is selling, he must provide verifiable evidence for his claims. So far, he refuses to do so, choosing to dismiss, ridicule, and call names instead. According to the Bible, Thiessen’s behavior is inconsistent with the Christian faith.
Yet, that is an arrogant demand as the unbeliever sits in the judgment seat and then tells Christians what is or isn’t proof.
Logic, science, and common sense determine what is and isn’t evidence for Christian claims. (I wish Thiessen would quit using the word proof. Proof is a mathematical term.)
The Christian can never win when this tilted playing field is used. Christian scientists have spent decades providing scientific proof, Christian archaeologists and astronomers have done the same, and so have many other researchers.
If Christian scientists have provided persuasive evidence for Thiessen’s claims, I haven’t seen it. If said evidence is what Thiessen says it is, why don’t Evangelical scientists show their work by publishing in reputable journals? Thiessen, a Bible literalist, believes the universe was created in six literal twenty-four-hour days, 6,027 years ago. Everything science tells us about the universe and our biological world says these claims are false. Thiessen demands “proof” from atheists, yet fails to offer persuasive evidence for his “scientific” claims apart from saying, “The Bible says.” According to him, the Bible — as interpreted by him — is inerrant and infallible, the ultimate authority and final answer to every question. This position, of course, is absurd. Sadly, Thiessen wants to argue science claims by appealing to faith. This may work with like-minded believers who accept his presuppositions, but will get him laughed out of the room by scientists and skeptics.
For the most part, the unbeliever just sits there, denies the evidence, and continues on their merry yet sin-loving way. The Christian has to learn that we do not dance to the unbeliever’s tune. What they demand doesn’t matter to us.
Thiessen’s peccadilloes are well known. A man who abandoned his family (including a child) and fled the United States to avoid paying child support, is in no position to lecture anyone on morality.
Of course what unbelievers “demand” matters to Thiessen. He has spent the past three years blogging about unbelievers, namely Bruce Gerencser and Ben Berwick. He has written hundreds of posts that directly or indirectly mention us. Yet, instead of engaging intellectually and rationally, Thiessen attacks our character or quotes Bible verses.
Once again, I challenge Thiessen to a public debate on YouTube. Let’s settle these issues once and for all, Derrick.
What matters is what God wants us to do in a given interaction with unbelievers. he knows their hearts and what will or won’t work with the individuals of that people group, so there is no sense jumping to meet the demands of the unbeliever.
Thiessen justifies his boorish behavior and lack of persuasive arguments by saying he’s just “doing what God wants him to do.” How can Thiessen possibly know what God wants him to do? How does he know the voices in his head are “God”?
I’m pleased that Derrick admits my lack of faith is God’s fault; that if God wants to save me, he will provide Evangelical apologists with the requisite tools necessary to bring me to saving faith. I’m dead in trespasses and sin, unable to save myself. My eternal destiny depends on God and Christians. So, I am waiting for God and his representatives on earth to come through. Until then, how about them Cowboys?
We listen to what God wants us to do and present the gospel meeting that instruction. If God does not want us to provide evidence, then we do not. Christians are under no obligation to provide physical evidence to unbelievers.
Evidently, Thiessen’s Bible is missing 1 Peter 3:15: But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect.
This verse says: Derrick, always be ready to make a defense of your beliefs to Bruce Gerencser, Ben Berwick, and other unbelievers. And do it, not with name-calling and personal attacks, but with gentleness and respect.
Is this not, Derrick, exactly what the B-I-B-L-E says?
If the unbeliever does not accept changed lives as evidence, then there is little hope they will accept evidence from 2000 to 4000 years ago. The Silver Scrolls has been around for 50 years approx., showing that the Bible has not changed since the 7th century BC.
OMG, did Thiessen really say that “the Bible hasn’t changed since the seventh century BCE ( BC and AD are no longer used by academics other than Evangelicals)? I challenge Thiessen to provide actual evidence for this claim. Better yet, this would make an awesome debate topic. Of course, Thiessen will NEVER debate me on this subject. He knows, or should know, anyway, that his claim has no evidentiary basis. And I mean NONE. Thiessen’s claim is contrary to what Evangelical and secular scholars alike tell us about the nature and history of the sixty-six books of the Protestant Christian Bible and its underlying Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic texts.
Yet, few people accept that as evidence that the Bible is true and not edited. So what do we do with the evidence Christian researchers discover??
Simple. Provide empirical evidence that the Bible is inerrant/infallible (true) and has NEVER been edited. Of course, no such evidence exists. Instead, we know that the Bible is errant and fallible, and has been edited countless times. This is a fact, not a claim, as the relevant academic literature shows. Again, I point to Dr. Bart Ehrman’s bestselling books on the history and nature of the Bible (and I can give Thiessen a list of numerous other Bible scholars and theologians who agree with Ehrman).
….
We need to keep the unbelievers honest as they will say anything to hide from the truth. The unbeliever does not have any hidden smoking gun physical evidence proving the Bible false. If you read BG’s response to yesterday’s post, you would have seen that he presents nothing to support his denials.
Sigh. I’m not going to write an academic paper every time a Thiessen gets his pink Victoria’s Secret panties with the days of the week on them in a knot over something I wrote about the Bible. I have covered these issues numerous times over the past seventeen years. Further, I have publicized the work of scholars such as Ehrman, Dr. Dan McClellan, Dr. Kip Davis, Dr. Joshua Bowen, and others — all of whom sport actual PhDs, unlike Thiessen’s unaccredited, diploma mill “doctorate.” I have also publicized debates featuring Matt Dillahunty and Alex O’Connor.
Why doesn’t Thiessen ever respond to their work, other than calling them names, belittling them, and asserting, without evidence, that they are wrong? Why are they wrong? They are unbelievers, and, according to Thiessen, unbelievers don’t know anything. Only Christians know the “truth.” (I assume Thiessen only sees and uses Christian doctors, lawyers, dentists, optometrists, auto mechanics, and contractors.)
That is because they have no physical evidence to prove their denials are correct. They have nothing thus they decide to be arrogant and demand Christians to prove their faith is true. Unbelievers are not in charge of what is or isn’t evidence.
Actually, logic, reason, and science determine what is and isn’t evidence. It’s absurd to appeal to an ancient religious text as the foundation and rules for what is evidence. Thiessen has made up his own rules of discourse and intellectual pursuit, demanding everyone play by his rules. He is akin to someone wanting to play poker with the rules for Go Fish. That ain’t going to work.
They would not know the evidence if it hit them in the face.
….
Sure we would, but Thiessen rejects academic consensus, choosing instead to appeal to only Evangelical scholars or those who hold positions roundly dismissed by most Bible scholars, archeologists, and other experts in their relevant fields. It is up to him to empirically show why academic consensus is wrong.
And I am not saying academic consensus is always right. However, since neither Thiessen nor I are scholars, accepting consensus scholarship on any given issue is generally a good idea. As a pastor, I believed that if I came up with an interpretation contrary to academic consensus, I was likely wrong. Thiessen, on the other hand, thinks just because he can read the Bible in English that he is right.
….
Do not cast pearls before swine and have the evidence trampled under their feet. If you do, you may lose what God has provided for you to remain strong in him. You never have to present physical evidence when sharing the gospel with unbelievers.
Again, 1 Peter 3:15 says: But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect.
Evidently, Thiessen doesn’t believe and practice the whole Bible —only the verses that suit him or justify his beliefs.
….
The men recorded having their lives changed including one who used the Bible to roll his cigarettes and became a Christian when he got to the Gospel of John. Another example is the man who wrote the movie Ben Hur, another was an agnostic doctor, and more.
If the unbeliever cannot accept the fact that Christ changed lives, then it is doubtful they will accept other evidence. Dead men do not change lives, especially millions of them around the world throughout history.
Thiessen refuses to accept the fact that subjective experiences and personal testimonies prove nothing.
Seven million Americans are Mormons. To Derrick, I ask, are their subjective experiences and personal testimonies true? How about those of Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Roman Catholics, Charismatics, and other religious groups? I know how Thiessen will answer, but let’s see if he will actually expose the absurdity of his claim.
We are ignoring BG’s [Bruce Gerencser’s] response because it is unhinged, irrational, illogical, and unworthy of further comment. He gave up his faith and little can be done for him. Since it is not his faith anymore, he needs to shut up and mind his own business.
He and other atheists and people who left the faith are in no position to demand anything.
I don’t demand anything from Evangelicals (the only true Christians in Thiessen’s book) other than if they make claims and demand I accept them, I want to see evidence for their claims. If you say a virgin-born God-man, who later was executed and resurrected from dead, healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, turned tap water into wine, walked on water, walked through walls, teleported from one place to another, and worked so many miracles that all the books in the world, if they were written down, could not contain them, I’m going to want evidence for your claims; the same evidence Thiessen asks Muslims, Mormons, and other non-Evangelicals to provide for their claims. The Bible is not evidence, it is a book of claims. If Thiessen wants unbelievers to accept his Bible claims, he must provide evidence that supports his claims. It’s not enough to say “the Bible says.”
Derrick, I ain’t going away. No matter how many times you call me names, attack my character, or belittle my story, I plan to keep writing until I can physically no longer do so. That could happen soon — I hope not — but until it does, I will continue to share my story and help people who have doubts and questions about Christianity or who have left the faith. Rage against me all you want, Derrick, but I ain’t going away. I suggest you buy some Preparation H for what ails you.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
You can email Bruce via the Contact Form.
Thiessen’s response to this post. It’s hoot.
He wrote 3 articles in response to the two we just posted. However, he failed again to provide any evidence supporting his claims. He just repeated that Jesus died and is in an unmarked grave.
How does he know this and no scholar or archaeologist does? Where is his evidence for this statement? He provides none because his statement is not true. Plus, he went to his usual favorite non-Christian writers who also do not provide any evidence for their anti-Christian, anti-Christ claims.
He has failed to come to the plate as usual and instead continues to use insults and ad hominem attacks on us. He once said that if we were members of his church when he was a pastor, he would kick us out and ban us from attending {so much for Christian love on his part}.
Yet, the question, would we actually attend his church on more than one occasion, needs to be answered. We do not know if we would but lean to the answer ‘probably not.’We see a lot of problems with his old theology and blow-with-the-wind ways that we would probably be turned off by his personality and seek another church to attend.
He has failed to meet the criteria for any response to our challenge and no we did not challenge him to a street fight. We challenged him to provide real, credible, and verifiable evidence or shut up about Christianity forever. He failed to do either part as he also rails against corporal punishment.
This is the thing about unbelievers and atheists. All they will do is criticize both Christians and the Christian faith. Then when challenged to present evidence to support their critiques, they never produce any.
Their criticisms come straight from evil and from the fact they do not like people who are better than them and are secure enough to admit they can’t make it through life without Christ. They also make their criticisms, lumping every believer into the same pot, while rejecting all explanations Christ, Christians, and the Christian faith.
They want Christians to not be a-holes (his words) yet have no problem being ‘a-holes’ themselves, especially towards those Christians who refuse to accept their sinful ways. We have spent hours producing articles with these explanations only to have atheists and other unbelievers trash them without giving the content any real open-minded consideration.
Then why is he so worried we will write about his content? We have explained that reason over and over yet he continues to fail to acknowledge the reason and adjust his rhetoric. He uses printed words of abuse but why does he need to do that if he is correct and we are wrong? Is he afraid his lies will be exposed and he will look like a fool?
He does that on his own with his blanket denials of the existence of Christ even though a myriad of evidence proves otherwise. We have accepted the fact that he and other atheists will never convert but why do they hate having their content examined?
We still want to know why he and other atheists need to force their unbelief on the rest of the world even though the rest of the world rejects their atheistic thinking? What do they accomplish with their activities except to ruin people and their children?
In the end, we are still waiting for BG to produce the credible, verifiable physical evidence which supports his claims. He has failed to do it in 3 to 4 responses so far. We doubt he will ever produce it because he can’t find something that is not there.
Also, his objections are mere subjective personal opinions and are not to be taken seriously. In fact, they are not even opinions but wishful thinking. Unbelievers and atheists have nothing to offer this world. Never listen to them.
https://theologyarchaeology.wordpress.com/2024/06/19/bg-failed-again/
To Thiessen I say: 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yet again Tee reverses the burden of proof. He’s the one claiming he has evidence that Jesus resurrected after he died. I say there’s insufficient evidence of this. He says I’ve got to provide evidence for my insufficient evidence…..really?
Geoff–Imagine a lawyer making such a demand in a court of law.
Defense lawyer: There is insufficient evidence to declare my client guilty.
Prosecutor: Provide evidence of that.
” the Bible says in 1 Peter 3:15: But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect.”
Zoe: Oh dear.
Tea for Three: “We need to keep the unbelievers honest as they will say anything to hide from the truth.”
Zoe: We need to keep the believers honest as they will say anything to hid from the truth.
Tea for Three: “… he needs to shut up and mind his own business.”
Zoe: This again? Who does this guy think he is?
I’m cautious about listening to people who are highly persuasive because I’m easily persuadable by anyone putting up a good case. If Hitler were alive I wouldn’t dare listen to him. “Doc” Tee’s rants on the other hand only bore me. Circular reasoning works if it’s subtle but this guy is so obvious with it that it becomes tiresome noise. Only the most susceptible are going to buy his act. Sadly though, plenty of victims are out there waiting for the likes of him to lead them. At least he isn’t running for President huh? Not yet anyway.
I can barely get through Tee’s screeds anymore. There’s so much faulty reasoning that I feel tired just thinking about addressing all the issues. It’s easier to paint a big red X over the whole thing, give it a failing grade, and move on.
The poor guy’s gonna implode.
Either that or he’s melting down, ectoplasm leaking from every orifice.
Well, it’s entertaining at least.
Side note: I know a lot of atheists and many Christians. The only ones trying to ‘force their beliefs on the rest of the world’ are the Christians. Most of the ones I know aren’t even doing that, realizing that their faith is, well, theirs.