Recently, I received the following email from an Evangelical man named Fred Flinstone (not his real name). My response is indented and italicized. (All spelling, grammar, and punctuation in the original.)
I read your Kenny Bishop piece.
The piece Fred is referencing can be found here: Southern Gospel Singer Kenny Bishop is Now a Gay United Church of Christ Pastor. Bishop is the former heterosexual lead singer of the Southern Gospel group, The Bishops. Kenny went through a lot of personal turmoil in his life, left Evangelicalism, came out as gay, married a man, and is now a United Church of Christ pastor in Lexington, Kentucky. Kenny remains a committed Christian, but is far from his Evangelical roots.
Kenny knew his lifestyle would not fit in Southern Gospel but he still finds way to serve.
Kenny doesn’t have a “lifestyle” any more than heterosexual Fred does. We are who we are. Kenny has chosen a path in life that is best for him, and I applaud his willingness to live openly and authentically, even if I disagree with some of his religious beliefs.
Kenny shouldn’t have to find ways to serve. He should be accepted as he is, but that’s never going to happen with many Evangelicals. Their archaic, anti-human interpretations of select Bible verses keep them from being welcoming human beings. In their minds, God and their peculiar interpretations of the allegedly inerrant, infallible Word of God trump treating people decently and with respect. LGBTQ people are abominable sinners, reprobates who have crossed the line of no return. Much of the violent rhetoric against LGBTQ people is driven by Christians holding to Evangelical (or Mormon and conservative Catholic) beliefs.
Kenny is a gifted musician. That his music is no longer received or listened to by millions of Evangelicals is unfortunate.
He believes as I do, savior above sin! Kenny’s still working.
I guarantee you Bishop does not believe as Fred does, As far as putting Savior above sin, Bishop is a gay man married to another man. According to Evangelical orthodoxy, he has most certainly NOT put Savior above sin.
I don’t know how you become a Former Christian that is still moved by gospel music.
If you want to understand my journey from Evangelicalism to atheism, please read the posts found on the WHY? page. As readers will see in a moment, Fred’s “understander” is broken.
Being moved by music is psychological in nature. I spent fifty years listening to Christian music. It would be odd for me to not find the music familiar, even though I no longer believe what most of the lyrics say. I am moved by all sorts of music. We go to numerous concerts during the year, listening to everything from hard rock to country music. We are quite eclectic musically. Last night, we attended a concert featuring Thompson Square and Walker County. Both my partner and I were “moved” by some of the songs — sometimes to tears. Neither of us is Christian, so God was not the locus of our feelings. How we feel when we hear music is driven by numerous factors, none of which require a deity or a religion.
The fact that it still moves you is a pretty good indication that there’s something still in you.
Of course, there’s still “something” in me. I am a living, breathing, flesh-and-blood human being. Of course, Fred means something different. Maybe God is still living inside of me or the Holy Spirit is still speaking to me, and sometimes he uses Southern Gospel music to “speak” to me. Sure . . . 🙂
The funny thing is Christians that claim they ain’t Christians anymore. That don’t work man! You can’t take that off like a shirt! You going to mess around and die and be pissed you in Heaven?
Here we go . . . According to Fred, I am still a Christian; that once I put on the “shirt” I can never take it off. This is akin to you still being married after you are divorced. I am a former Christian. I once was saved, and now I am not. I categorically and resolutely reject the central claims of Christianity. Jesus was a man who lived and died, end of discussion.
No, Fred is upset that he can’t square my story and that of other deconverts with his theology. That’s his problem, not mine. Perhaps he should rethink his theology or, better yet, just accept the stories of others at face value. When a person tells me he is a Christian, I believe him. I wish Evangelicals would do the same.
I don’t plan on “messing around,” whatever the Hell that means. My “messing around” days stopped in the mid-1970s. I plan on living until I die, and then it is over for me, just like it was for Jesus, the Apostles, and billions of people before me. I am confident no Heaven or Hell awaits me. And if I end up in Heaven anyway, will I be pissed? Maybe. It depends on how many Fred Flinstones live next to me. If I must choose, I prefer Hell with my fellow heathens. Much better company, music, and food. And best of all, no prostrating myself day and night before a narcissistic deity. I do hear, however, that the weather is a bit warm. 🙂
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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As you say, that is a frightening, sickening image (Jesus as a shirt you can never take off), akin to still being married after you’re divorced. A person divorced from an abusive partner will often be confronted by that partner speaking and acting like they are still married and expect to continue the toxic relationship unchanged. I like how clear you are about responsibility.
All the interesting, smart people will be in hell. Should be more entertaining!
I don’t know about him, but I take my shirts off to wash them, they also wear out, and sometimes (though my wife would probably deny it) I change up the style.
…I am not permanently attached to my shirts
Weird shirt analogy.
Regarding being moved by Gospel music, I grew up going to Catholic schools. Even though I’m an atheist, some of the wonderful songs we sang in school are still in the back of my head, and sometimes I find myself humming them. Sometimes uplifting, sometimes prayerful, always positive, and I can still hear the music teacher/students playing the piano and guitar in the assembly hall while we sang. I think, if I heard a professional rendition of The Prayer of St. Francis or Brand New Day, it could move me to tears.
Does that mean I’m still a Christian (Yes, dammit, Catholics are Christians!) at heart? No. It means that the music connects me with positive experiences in my life that didn’t involve any deities fiddling in it. Also, stripped of the religious tone, the songs are still meaningful. The Prayer of St. Francis is about being a better person and caring for others. Brand New Day is a celebration of being alive. Those are good things to practice, regardless of religious belief or lack of it.
“Yes, dammit, Catholics are Christians!”
Thank you, Karen. This lifted my spirits more than I can put into words.
The Catholic Church (the church I attend and identify with) has done horrific things both in ancient and recent history. I will never seek to minimize or excuse this. I can only hope that we evolve and hold ourselves accountable for our past. This includes myself, and whatever it is that I can do to be part of that accountability.
That said, I find evangelical attacks about folks like me not being “True Christians®️” because of course we spend our entire time in mass just praying to the Virgin Mary over and over again, and falling down in front of all the many statues, etc to be the height of both ignorance and arrogance.
I myself struggle with this religious identity. I am not anti-abortion (it is a decision that needs to be between a woman and her doctor. The end) and I’m center-left on most political issues, including issues that most trad-Catholics take the opposite view on. I also abhor Donald Trump. I hate to say this about any person, but the best thing he could do for the country would be to leave, permanently. I’m sure Russia or North Korea would welcome him with open arms.
My evolution from a far right conservative started because I witnessed people like yourself and Bruce, among others, show kindness and fairness in spite of the differences over religious belief/non-belief. I suspect I’m not the only practicing Catholic who has progressive somewhat liberal political views. I compare it to patriotism- I love the USA, but I don’t love our history or our politics. I remain an American because I have hope that someday we will all find ourselves on a better path.
I hope this all made sense.
Kenny has a “lifestyle?” Oh, please.
Karen—I was raised Catholic. Later, when I became an Evangelical, I told people “I was raised Catholic but now I’m a Christian.” Now I cringe when I think of that.
I remember being taught as an evangelical raised child that Catholics weren’t real Christians. It wasn’t until I was a young adult that I had the critical thinking skills to examine that notion and find it lacking.
I take off and put on different shirts all the time. I also wash them. Sometimes I give them away if I no longer want them or fit in them. As for ideas and beliefs, I have changed those as well after examining evidence and evaluating. That’s called growth.
I have to hand it to “Fred”: In e-mail #7, he gave us, in a few words, a portrait of exactly the sort of person who turns people off Jesus, especially as Evangelicals and Fundamentalists claim to follow him.
I also have to give him credit for keeping up that fine Fundamental/Evangelical tradition of silly metaphors. A shirt that you don’t take off? I see plenty of people wearing them on the streets of NYC. Most other people won’t go anywhere near them.
Oh, and one day I took off my shirt—for a blouse.
I read all those emails by “Fred Flintstone,” and this guy still obviously has all this alcoholic rage that his father( by his own admission) contaminated him with. Bruce, he sure sounds like a hysteric, as well as a flaming hypocrite !! I haven’t seen anything that virulent, since the antics by Reviled &Fired. I have a lots of questions myself for Dear Old Fred. I never heard of Kenny Bishop. or the group itself. I never liked Southern Gospel Music as a music style. As for libel laws, since you didn’t use the actual first and last name, nor email from this guy, he can’t sue you for one little thing !! Are you reading, Fred ? That said, this choleric 50 year old sounds like a Scotch-Irish character from one of those Southern states, like Georgia or Florida. Why does he think you look at Jesus like a shirt ? And, if being’ blood-bought’ is important, why does he drag Jesus and his name though the mud, with his foul mouth ? Raising Hell and Amazing Grace do NOT go together- you have one, in spite of the other ! HE is the ” Keyboard Thug” here. Not you. Your blog is a public service announcement, telling people to not leave their brains in the wastebasket when they enter a church. Or, when encountering a sex-offender ! Or a leader guilty of spiritual abuses. He claims that he is “cussing you out, as one who is saved!” I’m not Holy, bro ! I’m Holy S***! He said that !” Who is “HE?” Any idea just how LUNATIC that sounds, Fred ?? You have C-PTSD from your own conflicted childhood. And you need a specialist in that field, for the trauma therapy, Bro.