Recently, a Christian man named Stanley left the following comment on the post Why I Hate Jesus. My response follows. All spelling, grammar, and punctuation in the original.
Have you ever wondered what life was like for those who worshiped God before the Bible existed? How did they live for Him and connect with Him in a time when there were no written scriptures? If you can relate to this and seek to connect with the same true God that Jesus Himself believed in, you will break free from the limitations of human knowledge and step into a higher realm of understanding.
Countless deities existed and were worshipped before the Jewish and, later, the Christian God. These deities existed before the Bible, even though they are mentioned numerous times in the Good Book. Contrary to what Christians would have us believe, their deity is a human construct — as all deities are. How did you pick out your version of God from all the other extant deities? How do you know that this deity is the “true God?” According to orthodox Christian teaching, Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) are God. Jesus didn’t believe in God, he was God.
What evidence do you have for your claim that there is a “higher realm of understanding,” higher than human knowledge? I know of no other realm of understanding than human knowledge. By all means, educate me, but unsupported claims and anecdotal stories will not suffice. You make all sorts of claims in your comment that cannot be supported by empirical evidence.
God is spirit, and those who believe in Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (pure heart). Spirituality was never meant to be pursued solely for intellectual knowledge but to be experienced. The deep mysteries of the Spirit, hidden within the Bible, cannot be uncovered by human reasoning alone( flesh and blood)—they must be revealed in real time by the Spirit Himself ( the holy spirt) to those who are truly seeking.
What “deep mysteries of the Bible” are hidden in the Scriptures? No need to list all of them, but list the top five “mysteries” that cannot be understood apart from Holy Spirit illumination.
What makes you a “true seeker” where others are not? What’s the special sauce on your ribs that others do not have? This claim of yours drips with arrogance.
I was a Christian for fifty years and a pastor for twenty-five of those years. I have firsthand knowledge and understanding of religious experiences. That said, my experiences were never separated from my knowledge — even though I ultimately learned that my knowledge was ill-informed. Humans have all sorts of experiences that run contrary to knowledge. How do we determine what is true? Not by our feelings and personal experiences. Just because you feel or experience your peculiar version of God doesn’t mean that said God is real. Countless Christians believe God talks to them and answers their prayers. When asked for evidence for fantastical claims, none is forthcoming.
Unfortunately,Years of studying scripture do not automatically grant access to these true spiritual experiences. It all depends on God’s will and our willingness to surrender human wisdom for a higher knowledge that is beyond this world. To truly walk this path, one must die to the old self and be reborn in the Spirit (death and resurrection). Mere belief is not enough—there are works of the Spirit that must be lived out in the physical realm, and only a few ever find this path and are willing to pay the prize because it will strip you of all of your human possessions— both physically and mentally.
Well, ain’t you special.
Previously, you said that this divine knowledge and experience you say you have comes through worshipping God in spirit and truth. Now, you say that this knowledge and experience are dependent on it aligning with God’s will. Which is it? How can you possibly know God’s will when his thoughts and ways are not yours? Are you blessed with some sort of inside, gnostic knowledge?
I know the Bible inside and out. Further, I also had countless, deep religious experiences. I likely felt and experienced some of the very things you have. Are you doubting my experiences? The difference between us is that I learned that my experiences did not comport with reality. Just because I passionately and fervently claimed that God heard my prayers and answered them doesn’t mean he did. Of course, I eventually learned my experiences were fueled by religious indoctrination and conditioning, as well as being born into a Christian family and living in a predominantly Christian culture.
If you desire to seek this higher knowledge in an experiential way rather than a theoretical one, begin with this: Fast and pray for three days if you are able. At bedtime, simply say, “Lord Jesus, reveal Yourself to me as the true Son of God.” Meditate on these words with an open heart, and prepare yourself for a true encounter with the spiritual realm—a reality far beyond anything you have known in this world.
Better than sex? I doubt it.
I eat very little most days due to gastroparesis and endocrine pancreatic insufficiency, so no fasting for me unless I want to die from malnutrition. You would think God would cure me of these diseases so I can properly seek and know him using the “Official Stanley Method of Seeking and Finding God.” I did, however, pray the OSMSFG prayer. God’s response? Silence. I prayed it again, same result. Utter silence. And even if God revealed himself to me, how could I possibly know that this experience was anything other than the result of taking narcotics and cannabis? How could I possibly tell the difference between being high and a “true encounter with the spiritual realm—a reality far beyond anything you have known in this world?”
Your comment is long on claims and personal experiences and woefully short on evidence. Why should I treat your claims differently from those made by anyone else?
I have many experiences, many that I cannot speak off because they are personal and others that are people related-I share with them as lead by the spirit of God.
I have had many experiences, too, in my sixty-eight years of life. Why should I treat your experiences differently from my own? The difference between you and me is that I am willing to share my experiences, especially when using them to justify my beliefs or decisions.
Man is spirit, and you do not need to die physically to experience the life in the Spirit that has been promised through Christ’s blood and resurrection. May God bless you as you continue seek to know him more than words . Salvation is personal. First you have to be saved before saving others . Again , Many would say – saved from what ? The answer is in the spirit not in this world
What evidence do you have for your claim that “man is spirit?” You want to claim knowledge apart from the Bible, yet you claim beliefs that are only found in the Scriptures. Which is it? As far as I know, there’s no empirical evidence for the claim that man is spirit. You claim that you have a superior life to mine, thanks to some sort of supernatural experience. However, you provide no evidence for your claim apart from “Stanley says so.” Did you really expect to reach me without providing evidence for your claims?
You claim that salvation is personal. This claim reveals that you are not well-versed in what the Bible says about salvation, particularly in the Old Testament.
As an atheist, I learned that I don’t need salvation; that there’s nothing I need to be saved from outside of my cats using me as a launching pad while I sit in the living room watching TV. Salvation is a religious construct, one meant to keep clerics employed, asses in pews, and money in offering plates. It’s a con that religions have been running for thousands of years.
If you plan on responding to this post, please note how many times I asked you for evidence for your claims. If you cannot or will not provide this evidence, then there’s no reason for you to respond. Your personal experiences and feelings are yours alone and carry no weight with me. If they have provided you peace, happiness, and purpose in your life, fine, go with God. However, I have peace, happiness, and purpose in my life — as do countless atheists on this site — without God, the Bible, Christianity, the church, or any of the other religious entrapments you deem important.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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There you are Bruce. It was God’s will that you would become an Atheist. Stanley hath spoken.
“It all depends on God’s will and our willingness to surrender human wisdom for a higher knowledge that is beyond this world.”
But wait! What? Stanley says there was God before the Bible existed? It’s the old chicken and the egg problem. Which came first? I guess if we surrender to a higher knowledge that eternal puzzle would be solved for us.
Stanley: “If you desire to seek this higher knowledge in an experiential way rather than a theoretical one, begin with this: Fast and pray for three days if you are able. At bedtime, simply say, “Lord Jesus, reveal Yourself to me as the true Son of God.” Meditate on these words with an open heart, and prepare yourself for a true encounter with the spiritual realm—a reality far beyond anything you have known in this world.”
Bruce: “Better than sex? I doubt it.”
Zoe: Well you never know Bruce. 😉 Especially after starving yourself and denying yourself water, you never know what higher plane you might end up on.
I suspect Stanley won’t understand that his advice is dangerous.
If anyone who is not a Christian (however one defines that term) were to tell someone to fast for three days and repeat a prayer, that person would be, at best, seen as some sort of guru and, at worst, the leader of a dangerous cult.
“Christianity” and “dangerous cult.” As Mark Twain said about someone being an idiot and a member of Congress, “but I repeat myself.”
I’m just going to take a moment to note that Gnosticism is still considered a heresy.
Not that this is entirely that, but it’s definitely trending that way.
You were never a Christian. Too bad.
Ohhhh, I’ve never heard that before. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
So “David Parker”, Bruce was “never” a Christian? Never, ever, ever?
Like when he spent four years at a strict Baptist re-education camp (Sorry, I meant “Bible College”) in order to get a degree so he could spend the rest of his life preaching the Gospel?
Like when he moved his family to Texas and lived in a single wide trailer so he could help establish and administer a school for children of the parishioners?
Like when he had to work full time jobs while being a full time Pastor, because unlike the Catholic Church or other reasonable Protestant churches, he was expected to forgo any comfortable income from the church collection for his personal needs?
Oh, and like when he was accused of heresy by his former Pastor in Texas because he actually believed in treating his parishioners with dignity and respect?
But no, Bruce was never a True Christian®️ like yourself.
I’m sure I missed some other travails Bruce had to endure during the part of his life he was “not a Christian”.
Maybe, “David”, you should just shut the f—- up.
David Parker, I’m reiterating what John S has just said so well. I too jesus-ed my socks off for decades. Name a form of evangelism and hubs and I were the first to sign up for it, to lead it, to sacrifice money, time, job promotion and energy to bring heathens to our jesus. We prayed fervently of course to be shown the right way and our hearts’ desire for decades was to show folks how to avoid that lake of eternal fire. So, if we were doing it all wrong……why on earth didn’t god show us and correct us? He saw our zeal,,,,one word of rebuke or correction from him and we’d have changed immediately from whatever we were doing wrongly to obey his command……………(Could it be that he didn’t………cos he doesn’t exist?)
Thanks, John. ❤️❤️
The number one 1️⃣ argument that irritates me the most is that I never was a Christian ✝️. People who claim this have no evidence for their claim. In fact, the evidence suggests that I was a committed, devoted follower of Jesus. Dave will search in vain for anyone who knew me in my Christian days that will say I was anything other than a Christian. Either I was a master deceiver, right up there with Satan 😈 — and I’m not, I’m a terrible liar — who deceived thousands of congregants and colleagues in the ministry (along with my Christian spouse, children, parents, grandparents , in-laws, and other relatives) about my faith in Christ, or David is full of shit. 💩 I’m going with the latter. 🤣 The problem for David and others like him is that their soteriology conflicts with my storyline, and since they can’t reconcile the two, they are forced to claim I never was a Christian (or even more absurd, I’m still a Christian—once saved always saved). There are, however, soteriologies that comport with my story — namely Arminianism. All I know is this: I once was saved and now I’m not. 🤣🤣 If David can’t square that with his theology, that’s his problem, not mine.
I generally accept people at face value. I’ve never said to reader who professes faith in Christ, I reject your testimony of belief. I take them at their word. Why can’t Evangelicals grant me the same respect and understanding, especially since I can provide a theological justification for my Christian life and subsequent deconversion.
“Why can’t Evangelicals grant me the same respect and understanding, especially since I can provide a theological justification for my Christian life and subsequent deconversion.”
That is exactly the issue, couldn’t have said it better!
From my experience, evangelicals in particular have an incredibly disordered desire to be validated. This not meant to excuse other flavors of Christianity, but most of the time, you don’t see secular humanists, atheist agnostics, Jews, or even most Lutherans or Catholics trying to nag people into “conversion” (which is usually short-lived), or hector them into silence when they get the wrong answer to the question, “So, where do you go to church?”.
Your detractors will always fall short, because they lack a basic respect for the autonomy of other people, which they always seem to demand for themselves.
So you’ve got that going for you … which is nice.
Starvation is a great hallucinogenic.
‘….who deceived 100s of congregants…..’ likewise, Bruce. When we got converts, dunno how many, but quite a lot when we were our church’s youth leaders running camps and houseparties as well as weekly bible clubs, were they then false x-tians too? It’s a long while ago now, but I know a few, and have heard of more who became missionaries, preachers, vicars and other sorts of x-tian workers through their teenage conversions with us. So are they too now fake x-tians after decades of doing evangelism and x-tian service? God must be a puny thing if he allowed the ‘false gospel’ we were spreading as fake x-tians, to recruit so many. Maybe he took pleasure at the thought of consigning us and them to hell, when we spent a lifetime believing we were his beloved servants!
No one would want to be around me if I fasted for 3 days – heck, no one wants to be around me if a meal is 30 minutes late! HANGRY is a mild term for ObstacleChick in a fasted state!
All kidding aside, Bruce has been through so much with regard to his religious journey. To presume to tell him what he needs to do is arrogant and insulting, totally disregarding the work and struggle he put into his journey. He has more than laid out his journey in multiple posts.
“It all depends on God’s will and our willingness to surrender human wisdom for a higher knowledge that is beyond this world.” You sound a bit Islamic there, Stanley. “Submission (to God)” is what “Islam” means. And I agree with Michael Mock about Stanley’s flirtation with Gnosticism. Also, Stanley is boasting about his spiritual gifts, which Paul says is wrong. 2 Corinthians 11:30, “If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.” Stanley is a holier than thou fellow all around.