I am a member of a Facebook group that features pictures of classic paintings and other works of art turned into user-generated memes. Many of the memes are hilarious. No subject is out of bounds, including Christianity. Recently, a group member posted a meme that made fun of Jesus. One woman, a Christian, got her panties in a twist and decided to respond with a preachy comment. She, of course, quickly received pushback, and then said that people should respect her beliefs; implying that her sincerely held beliefs were exempt from criticism and mockery; that not only should people respect her, but they should also respect her beliefs.
Evangelicals, in particular, used to receiving reverential and preferential treatment in public spaces — i.e. don’t say Jesus Fucking Christ if a preacher is nearby — are often easily offended with they receive pushback or mockery from unbelievers or non-Evangelical Christians. How dare people mock the one true religion! How dare people laugh about Jesus! How dare people ridicule an eternal God-man who was born of a virgin, walked on water, turned water into wine, healed blindness with dirt and spit, brought dead people back to life, teleported out of a room, resurrected from the dead, and ascended into the sky, never to be seen again! How dare people make jokes about a three-headed deity creating the universe in six twenty-four-hour days, 6,026 years ago! How dare people laugh at crackers and wine turned into blood and human flesh! How dare people make ribald comments about Adam & Eve being the first human beings! How dare people ROTFL about a walking, talking snake, a talking donkey, the sun standing still, a worldwide flood, and bears eating children who made fun of a preacher!
The Bible, as read and interpreted by Evangelicals, is a joke book that just keeps on giving. When Evangelicals make triumphant entries into public spaces, demanding that non-Christians respect their beliefs and not criticize or make fun of said beliefs, they shouldn’t be surprised when people ridicule their beliefs. If Evangelicals want safe spaces, I suggest they retreat to the safety of their clubhouses, places where most members believe the same nonsensical beliefs.
Blogs, of course, are not public spaces. They are as public as their owners allow them to be. Most blogs have comment policies. (You can read this site’s comment policy here.) Personally, I have no interest in the comment section being a free-for-all; a place where anyone can say whatever they want, without accountability. I want to see friendly conversations, even among people who disagree with each other. Unfortunately, the nature of my writing and my leftist, socialist, and pacifistic political views make it almost impossible to have friendly discussions with people who vehemently disagree with me. So, I don’t try. I say to prospective Evangelical, Independent Fundamentalist Baptist, right-wing Republicans, forced birthers, anti-LGBTQ people, creationists, and the like, “Here are the rules. You are free to comment if you show you can play by the rules. I will even give you one comment to say whatever you want, even if it violates the rules.” Sadly, many Evangelicals either cannot or will not play by the rules. Why? They think they should have the freedom to say whatever they want, wherever they want. When I push back on this faulty notion of theirs, I typically say to them, “Fine. I will let you say whatever ever you want IF I can come to your church on Sunday and talk about atheism.” Evangelicals squawk and moan, saying I am comparing apples and oranges. Really? Their churches and this blog are private spaces open to the public. Both have rules that govern participation. Of course, Evangelical objections reveal the real issue: they expect preferential treatment; they demand freedom for me but not thee.
When it comes to respecting people, in general, I respect everyone, regardless of their beliefs. I respect their right to believe whatever they want. I once was an Evangelical, so I understand why Evangelicals believe the things they do. Disrespecting them, as people, is not helpful if my goal is to challenge their beliefs and change their minds. That said, there are some people I don’t respect. I don’t care how nice they are to kitties and puppies. When certain Evangelicals lie about me, besmirch my character, and attack my family, I don’t respect them. The same goes for some political leaders, especially those who are part of MAGA wing of the Republican Party and the Freedom Caucus. Some people, I loathe and despise. Such people don’t deserve my respect.
I generally respect people, seeing them as fellow travelers on this journey called life. However, when it comes to their beliefs, they shouldn’t expect me to necessarily respect those beliefs if they drag them into public spaces (and this goes for my peculiar beliefs too).
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
An Evangelical man name David sent me a message today via my Facebook Page. Here’s what he had to say (all spelling and grammar in the original):
That’s interesting. I know in my mind I wondered about my faith for a long time. I’ve seen some miraculous stuff in my lifetime as I’m sure you have too. I saw the shekinah glory move through the church isles when I was about 22 which was 32 years ago and walked away from God for along time but I always felt God tugging on me trying to bring me back. Have you every studied the evidence on both sides of evolution vs creation? There’s a lot of scientific evidence for creation and a lot of scientists who believe that God created it all and that’s how I believe also after looking at all the evidence. I’m not one of those who would say well you just really was never saved because I believe you are. The one thing that stood out to me in your conversation between the two of you that have renounced Christianity was that there’s been a lot of people that are calling themselves Christians did not do the Christian thing to either one of y’all and I get the impression that y’all are both bitter with God because of it. I hope you realize that and don’t take what broken people do and turn it on God. My hope is that one day you’ll come back to God and I will definitely pray that you do. Sorry that wife never got to experience some of the stuff you did as I’m sure sooner or later she would have. I had always had a little bit of faith even when I was running from God and it all started with offense from other people but now my faith is strong and I have no doubt God put us here and the Bible is his word due to the the underlying mathematics in the Greek and Hebrew text and just from studying the Bible in general. Bruce I will be praying for you brother as I believe you still are a Christian. You got a wonderful looking family and good luck to you sir.
I want to give David the benefit of the doubt, but I find emails, comments, and messages such as his increasingly irritating, frustrating, and condescending. While David says I have a “wonderful looking family” and wishes me luck, his email also ignores what I have publicly said and written about my journey from Evangelicalism to atheism, and essentially calls me a liar (a point which I shall press in a moment).
David, as many Evangelicals do, conflates atheism with acceptance of evolution as the best explanation of the natural world. Atheism is one thing, and one thing alone: the lack of belief in the existence of gods. I wish Evangelicals would write this down on a post-it note and attach it to their computer screens; a reminder of what atheism actually is. Atheists have all sorts of beliefs — crazy beliefs, promoters of woo. Jesus, some atheists even voted for Donald Trump. Sure, atheists generally accept what science says about our biological world and the universe, but that does not mean such beliefs require atheism. Scores of Christians believe in theistic evolution or are old earth creationists. Are these followers of Jesus actually atheists too?
I am not a scientist and neither is David. Neither of us is qualified to speak authoritatively on evolution. As a former Evangelical pastor for twenty-five years, I understand creationism inside and inside. I don’t need a science education to understand creationism. Why? Creationism (and its gussied-up step-sister intelligent design) is a theological claim, not a scientific claim. Science, in fact, has repeatedly repudiated creationist claims. Sure a handful of scientists, operating from the presuppositions that the Christian God exists and the Bible is true, are creationists, but the vast majority of scientists believe evolution best explains our natural world, and that cosmology and other sciences best explain the universe.
Let me say this one more time, evolution played no part in my deconversion from Christianity. None, nada, zip. I read my first book on evolution in 2012 — Why Evolution is True by Dr. Jerry Coyne — four years after I deconverted. I have read several books about evolution since then and continue to watch YouTube videos about evolution. I have found Forrest Valkai’s video series on evolution to be quite helpful. Here’s episode one:
I generally accept scientific consensus. Since I am not a trained scientist, I am in no position to judge the work of people who have dedicated their lives to understanding our biological world. I try to educate myself and be informed as possible, but I will always be a novice. Thus, as I do with many things, I trust experts. Want to talk theology, Evangelicalism, or sex, I’m your man. Okay, maybe not that last one. No one knows everything. My late brother-in-law was a cardiologist, yet he couldn’t fix his computer or palm pilot if his life depended on it. That was my job. He trusted my expertise about computers and I trusted his expertise about medicine. That’s the way the world works. Sadly, within Evangelicalism, there are countless people who think if they read books published by Answers in Genesis and other creationist parachurch ministries, they are somehow experts on evolution. They are not, but don’t bother trying to tell them that.
Typically, when I interact with creationists, I try to get them to discuss the foundation of their creationist beliefs — the Bible. Not science, the Bible. If I can disabuse them of the notion that the Bible is in any way inerrant and infallible, then perhaps they will see that believing God created the universe in six literal twenty-four hours days, 6,026 years ago is rationally and intellectually unsustainable.
Let me conclude by answering David’s statements about my life and that of my wife, Polly. David believes that Polly and I are still Christians; that we are just bitter over harm caused to us by other Christians. David supposedly watched my video interview with the Harmonic Atheist.
Did he hear me say that I am bitter about what Christians did to me? Of course not. This is a straw man that David has built of me (and Polly) in his mind. There’s nothing in my story that suggests I was bitter towards God or Christians. I am not, by nature, a bitter person, so any claim that I am is false. If anything would make me bitter, it would be constant attacks on my character by God’s chosen ones.
David says he is a Christian. I believe him. I accept his story (testimony) at face value. Who am I to say that he is not, right? Why can’t David extend the same respect to me? Rarely does a day go by without an Evangelical Christian telling me what I really believe, what’s wrong with me, why I am not a Christian, etc. They daily dig through my story, looking for things that don’t fit their peculiar worldview. Others psychoanalyze me. Some attack, harass, call names, and threaten me with judgment, Hell, and death.
The Bible says you will know a tree by the fruit it produces. From my corner in the orchard, Evangelicalism is a poisonous tree that produces poisonous fruit. Even if I were inclined to return to Christianity, it sure as Hell wouldn’t be Evangelicalism. Of course, that ain’t going to happen. I have weighed Christianity in the balance and found it wanting. Unless new evidence is presented to me, I see no reason to reconsider my decision to divorce Jesus.
This brings me to my last objection to David’s message: the idea that I am still a Christian. This is, by far, the silliest thing Evangelicals say to me. What, in my life, remotely suggests that I am a Christian? Nothing. The God of the Bible is a myth. The Jesus of the Bible is forever dead, and did not perform the miracles recorded in the Bible. The Bible is an errant, fallible manmade book. I reject EVERY central claim of Christianity including the divinity of Christ, the virgin birth of Christ, and the resurrection of Christ. Can I fully, and without reservation, reject these claims and others? In what universe am I still a Christian?
No, the problem here is that David can’t square my story with his peculiar theology, so he claims I am still a Christian. Once saved, always saved, right? If David wants me to accept his claim that he is a Christian, then he must mine. That’s respect. I AM AN ATHEIST. Proudly so. I am, according to the Bible, an apostate and a reprobate.
I am not David’s brother. I am a stranger on the Internet. As is common among Evangelicals, they cheapen words such as love and brother. Becoming my brother is reserved for my three biological brothers — two of whom I became aware of two years ago — and men who are close, intimate friends. And trust me, I have very few male friends. I am not promiscuous with my love and friendship as Evangelicals are.
Well, enough. I am sure David got more than he bargained for. I suspect all I did with this post is prove to him I am bitter. 🙂
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Both Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1 read, “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’”
Brenda, what’s your objective? Surely you know that the Bible carries no weight with me; that I grant it no authority in my life. I am more than happy to discuss the nature and history of the Bible with you. I think you will find that I am quite conversant in all things Bible.
So, to the Bible, as interpreted by you, saying “Bruce Gerencser is a fool,” I say, so what? Just because the Bible says something doesn’t mean it’s true. The Bible is not evidence; it is a collection of books written by primarily unknown authors that make all sorts of claims. It is up to you, Brenda, to provide evidence for these claims.
You will find that presuppositionalist arguments carry no weight with me or most of the readers of this blog — many of whom are Christians. You presuppose that your peculiar version of the Christian God is the one, true God who created the universe; that nature, conscience, and divine revelation (the Bible) reveals to everyone, without exception, this God; that all humans intuitively know this God exists; that anyone who denies these “truths” is deliberately suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. You also believe that the Bible, as divine revelation from your God, is inerrant and infallible.
I reject these presuppositions out of hand. Let me be blunt, just because you say something doesn’t make it so. As a rationalist and skeptic, I expect actual evidence for your claims; not proof texts or regurgitated Fundamentalist talking points.
Some take these verses to mean that atheists are stupid, i.e., lacking intelligence. However, that is not the only meaning of the Hebrew word translated “fool.” In this text, the Hebrew word is nabal, which often refers to an impious person who has no perception of ethical or religious truth. The meaning of the text is not “unintelligent people do not believe in God.” Rather, the meaning of the text is “sinful people do not believe in God.”
Awesome, you know how to use Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. I find it interesting that you chose the third possible meaning of the word to make your point. The first meaning says that atheists are “stupid.” This claim — and it is a claim — is not factually supported. In general, atheists are more educated than Evangelical Christians. The more education one has, the less likely they are to believe in God; especially the Evangelical God. You commented on a post about Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) evangelist C.T. Townsend. If you are IFB or familiar with the movement, then you know IFB adherents are not known for being overly educated. The more Fundamentalist one is, the less likely they are to have a post-high school education. I don’t say this to say that Fundamentalists are “stupid.” I am saying that any suggestion that atheists, as a class of people, are stupid is a foolish and unwise claim. Are there stupid atheists? Absolutely. That said, most of the atheists I know are educated and well-read. Their atheism is rooted in knowledge and facts and a rationalist, humanistic understanding of religion and the world. That’s why we expect Evangelical zealots to interact with us on a rational, evidentiary basis. If you can do that, Brenda, I am more than happy to discuss with you anything you want. However, if you are here to quote Bible verses and preach, then I am not interested in hearing what you have to say. Yeah, I know, I have a hardened heart; I’m an apostate; I’m a reprobate.
In other words, it is a wicked thing to deny God, and a denial of God is often accompanied by a wicked lifestyle. The verse goes on to list some other characteristics of the irreligious: “They are corrupt; their deeds are vile; / there is no one who does good.” Psalm 14 is a study on the universal depravity of mankind.
Many atheists are very intelligent. It is not intelligence, or a lack thereof, that leads a person to reject belief in God. It is a lack of righteousness that leads a person to reject belief in God. Many people do not object to the idea of a Creator, as long as that Creator minds His own business and leaves them alone. What people reject is the idea of a Creator who demands morality from His creation. Rather than struggle against a guilty conscience, some people reject the idea of God altogether. Psalm 14:1 calls this type of person a “fool.”
Psalm 14:1 says that denying God’s existence is commonly based on a desire to lead a wicked life. Several prominent atheists have admitted the truth of this. Some, such as author Aldous Huxley, have openly admitted that a desire to avoid moral restraints was a motivation for their disbelief:
(Huxley quote deleted. It is irrelevant and an attempt to poison the well. I could just as easily say that Jeffrey Dahmer, Donald Trump, and David Hyles are Christians.)
Let’s see if I understand what you are saying here: atheists are corrupt, atheists are vile; atheists desire to lead a wicked life. Do you have any evidence for these claims? How many atheists do you know? How many of them have you actually talked to about their worldviews and how they live their day-to-day lives?
What you are saying to me directly is that the reasons I left Christianity and embraced atheism are because I am vile, corrupt, and have the desire to live a wicked life. (You could have quoted the “sins” in Romans 1 as well.) Evangelicals routinely accuse me of being a closeted homosexual. Their evidence? I have LGBTQ friends and I wear rainbow-colored suspenders.) Ask yourself this, Brenda. Did I immediately stop being a moral, ethical man the moment I said I was no longer a Christian? Did I stop being a loving, thoughtful husband, father, grandfather, neighbor, and friend? Did I have secret sins in my life, and becoming an atheist gave me to the freedom to lie, steal, cheat, and fuck whomever I want? Do you realize how silly this sounds?
Here’s what I know. Christianity has no corner on the morality market. You seem to forget that I was a pastor for twenty-five years. I counseled scores of church members and heard the deep, dark secrets of colleagues in the ministry. I can tell you this: Jesus is not vaccine against immoral and unethical behavior. Bible-believing Christians, who are filled with the Holy Ghost, can and do commit crimes and cause harm to others. I pastored people who committed all sorts of heinous crimes, everything from murder to sexual abuse to adultery to domestic violence, and numerous other crimes and lesser “sinful behaviors,” while not criminal, caused untold harm to their spouses and children. As far as preachers are concerned, please peruse the Black Collar Crime Series. You will find almost 1,000 stories about criminal misconduct by pastors, evangelists, missionaries, youth pastors, worship leaders, and other church leaders — mainly sex crimes. So any claim that Christians are moral or that Christianity provides morality that atheists don’t have is laughable and not supported by facts.
Further, I have been blogging since 2007. Thousands of Evangelicals have commented on my posts, sent me emails, or sent me messages on social media. By and large, their interactions with me have been caustic and argumentative. Many of these so-called followers of the Prince of Peace were hateful, vile, and nasty, threatening me with judgment, Hell, and death. Several have threatened to murder me; another threatened to assault my daughter with Down Syndrome. Others have visited other blogs and tried to attack my character. A new tactic is to seek out my family and acquaintances and try to evangelize them or play mind games. So, don’t tell me about the supposed moral superiority of Christianity. Thousands of former Evangelicals read my writing. Many of them will tell you, myself included, that we have met and know many fine people whom are Evangelical Christians. They will also tell you that Evangelicalism — especially the IFB church movement — is a poisonous tree that produces poisonous fruit. How about actually interacting with and learning from Evangelicals-turned-atheists/agnostics instead of pompously and arrogantly preaching AT them? Do better, Brenda, do better.
Belief in a divine Being is accompanied by a sense of accountability to that Being. So, to escape the condemnation of conscience, which itself was created by God, some simply deny the existence of God. They tell themselves, “There is no overseer of the world. There is no Judgment Day. I can live as I please.” The moral pull of the conscience is thus more easily ignored.
Belief in God has never stopped anyone from doing what they want to do. People do what they do — good, bad, and indifferent. All of us are as moral and ethical as we choose to be. I have murdered and raped as many people as I want. I have robbed as many banks as I want. I have sexually assaulted as many people as I want. I don’t want to, so I don’t — no God needed. If the only reason, Brenda, you are not a murderer, rapist, child molester, or thief is that you believe in God, then by all means keep believing in God. However, I suspect you know as I do that if you became an atheist today that you would be as moral and ethical today as you were when you were a Christian. People don’t suddenly become serial killers the moment they stop believing in God.
As far as accountability is concerned, I am accountable to my spouse, children, and close friends. I don’t need a magical being to keep me moral. I love my wife. I love my family. I love my friends and neighbors. And because I do, I want to be a good man; a loving man; a kind man. I am sure I frequently fail. but the bent of my life is toward love for those that matter to me.
Trying to convince oneself there is no God is unwise. The point of “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’” is that it is an impious, sinful heart that will deny God. The atheist’s denial flies in the face of much evidence to the contrary, including his own conscience and the universe he lives in.
Most atheists don’t convince themselves against extant evidence that there is no God. Have you actually had a serious, lengthy discussion with an Evangelical-turned-atheist; a discussion where they explained to you their reasons for deconverting? I doubt it. Your comment reveals a total lack of understanding about what it is atheists actually believe and why they left Christianity.
What evidence can you provide, Brenda, for the existence of your peculiar version of the Christian God? Not A GOD, not a generic God, THE GOD, the one, true, everlasting God you worship. Since God commands you to give an answer to the hope that lies within you, please provide evidence — outside of Bible prooftexts and generic appeals to the natural world (creation) and morality (conscience), both of which can be adequately explained by science — for the existence of your particular deity.
A lack of evidence of God’s existence is not the true reason atheists reject a belief in God. Their rejection is due to a desire to live free of the moral constraints God requires and to escape the guilt that accompanies the violation of those constraints.
Sigh. (Please see Why I Use the Word “Sigh.”) You are just preaching now. I suspect that was your goal. You really don’t have any interest in reaching me with the gospel. You are more concerned with being right; more concerned with putting an atheist in his place with God’s inerrant, infallible Word; more concerned about telling fellow Fundamentalists that you sure told that critic of C.T. Townsend. There’s no compassion, concern, love, or understanding in your comment from someone who invested little to no time in understanding my story or interacting me as an equal.
I deleted your lengthy quote of Romans 1:18-25. Did you think I have never read this passage of Scripture, or that countless zealots before you haven’t quoted these verses to me? As a pastor, I preached from this text numerous times. I know what it says inside and out. I spent over 20,000 hours reading and studying the Bible during the twenty-five years I spent in the ministry. If you comment further, please refrain from prooftexts. If you have not done so, please read the comment policy — which you violated numerous times. The only reason I approved your comment is that I thought my response to you would be helpful to both Christians and unbelievers alike.
You ending your comment with Romans 1:18-25 is you saying that what you said in your comment is God speaking, not you; that if I have a problem with what you said, I have a problem with God. No, Brenda, I have a problem with you. My goal in this post is to both chastise and correct you. You could have had a thoughtful discussion with me. Instead, you wasted it.
Be well.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
The recent success of an interview (28,000 views) I did with Tim Mills, the Harmonic Atheist, has brought me increased attention from Evangelical Christians.
Media interviews I do always bring out knives, pitchforks, and pyres, but it seems, at least to me, Evangelical hostility levels have dramatically increased, so much so that I have had thoughts of throwing in the towel. So much vitriol toward an insignificant atheist. What gives? Judging by their attacks, you would think I had kidnapped their firstborn or slept with their spouse. One man, whom I have banned and blocked numerous times, is trying to get at me through family, friends, and acquaintances. Yesterday, he went after my youngest son’s transgender roommate. That didn’t go very well for this Evangelical man. He happened to run into a young man who is more than capable of handling themselves. In fact, I suspect they enjoyed eviscerating this man. Earlier this week, my youngest daughter received a cryptic email from an Evangelical man, saying that he was trying to get a hold of me. Of course, he wasn’t trying to contact me. I am one of the most accessible people on the Internet. I am but a click or two away. No, this man wanted to let me know that he could get at me and my family. Why else did he list all the publicly available email addresses for me, including several email addresses I haven’t used in twenty years?
The fact that I have a lot of serious health problems has made it easy for Evangelicals to say that these maladies are God’s judgment or God trying to get my attention. The unrelenting pain that is literally choking the life out of me is “God” trying to get my attention. Someday, hopefully not today, tomorrow, or next week, I will die. I know that I am on the short side of life; that either disease, accident, or the damn cat will one day put an end to me. I can only imagine what Independent Fundamentalist Baptists (IFB) zealots will say on their blogs and what preachers say in their sermons upon hearing reports of my demise. “Bruce knows the truth now!” “Atheist Bruce Gerencser now knows that God exists and Hell is real!” These followers of Jesus will feign sadness as they speak of my death, but they will silently say to themselves, “that God-hating, Devil-loving motherfreaker got exactly what he deserved. No one mocks my God and gets by with it. ” (Motherfreaker is a Baptist swearword. An Evangelical recently got upset with me because I used a swear word in one of my posts. I am sure you can imagine my response to him. Please see Evangelical Swear Words.) 🙂
Let me circle back around to this idea that God gave me fibromyalgia, gastroparesis, and degenerative spine disease because he is trying to get my attention; that every night I writhe in pain in bed, unable to sleep, my suffering is a message of love from the Christian deity.
What’s with God “trying” to do anything? Is he weak and powerless, unable to do what he wants? If God is not willing that any should perish, how is possible that Bruce Gerencser, a frail, broken-down biped, can thwart God’s will? Surely God can easily and effortlessly reach me at any time. “Nothing is too hard for God” and “with God all things are possible,” the Bible says. Yet, it seems that saving me is too hard for God and that it is impossible for the Big Kahuna to reach me.
If my suffering is God trying to get my attention, does this mean that if I repent and put my faith and trust in Jesus, my chronic pain and illnesses will immediately and magically disappear? Crickets are all I hear from Evangelicals. They know there is no connection between my health problems and God. None. Shit happens, and this is my shit.
I have a three-year-old redheaded grandson named Silas. He’s a handful. Silas has no fear of anything. He must be watched at all times. Our living room is small, 16’x20′. We have three lamps in the room, along with an overhead light. I HATE the overhead light. My grandkids know not to turn the light on when I am in the room. Not Silas. He will run over to the wall switch, give me a look — you know, THAT look — turn on the light, and run off. No matter what I say or do, Silas keeps flipping the switch. Mischief is his middle name, some sort of karmic payback for my own childhood mischief. If my mom were alive, she would be smiling.
Imagine if I determined to teach Silas a lesson about the overhead light. I decided that the next time Silas turned the light on I would break his arm. Boy, that would get his attention, right? This is EXACTLY what Evangelicals are saying when they say that God has afflicted me to get my attention or to teach me a lesson. What, exactly, did I ever do to God to deserve such punishment? Or is God okay with Bruce, the Evangelical-preacher-turned-atheist, and that it is Evangelicals who want to see me suffer? Sadly, many Evangelicals are sadists. Unbelievers have what they can’t have, so they rail against them, uttering threats of suffering, death, and Hell.
If I broke Silas’ arm because he kept turning on the light, I would deserve to be arrested and locked up for my crime. So it is for the Evangelical deity who inflicts suffering on finite beings. If such a deity exists, he is unworthy of our worship.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
I interact with Evangelical Christians of all stripes virtually every day; on Facebook, YouTube, via email, and responding to comments on this site. I was part of the Evangelical church for fifty years. I attended an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) Bible college in the mid-70s and spent twenty-five years pastoring IFB, Sovereign Grace, Christian Union, Southern Baptist, and non-denominational churches in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. I know Evangelicalism inside and out.
One thing I have learned in my sixty-six years of life is this: Evangelicals seem to have a hard time adapting or changing their ways to reach and influence unbelievers. In the IFB church movement, in particular, churches and parachurch organizations are using the same techniques and methodologies that they were using in the 1970s and 1980s. Our culture has moved on, but Evangelicals continue to sing the old gospel song, I Shall Not be Moved.
Evangelicalism is dying on the vine. Evangelicals often object when I make this claim, saying look at all of the growing megachurches! What they don’t mention, however, is that the vast majority of church attendance growth comes from transfers — people moving their membership from one church to another. All around the country, smaller Evangelical churches, whose memberships have been pilfered by larger congregations, are closing their doors. New convert numbers are in decline, as are baptisms. There is also a huge statistical disconnect between the membership roll and actual church attendance. On any given Sunday, half of Southern Baptist church members are not in church. Evangelical church growth experts are alarmed over the attendance decline among young adults. The rise of the NONES — atheists, agnostics, and people who are indifferent towards religion — scares the shit out of them, as does the increasing number of people who are “dones” — people who are done with church.
Knowing all these things, what do Evangelicals do to stem declines in attendance, conversions, and baptisms? The same things they have always done. Evangelicals have been waging culture wars for a hundred years. They are seemingly clueless as to how their wars are perceived by unbelievers and non-Evangelical Christians. Either that or they don’t care. Today, Evangelicals are one of the most hated religious groups in America.
As I mentioned above, I interact with Evangelicals almost every day, sometimes multiple times a day. As I pondered writing this post, I made a list of techniques Evangelicals attempt to use to win me to Jesus:
Love Bombing — pretending to “love” me, hoping that doing so will give them an in with me. Such people express deep love for me and often offer to buy me lunch/dinner or give me money.
Feigned Friendship — pretending to befriend me, hoping that becoming my friend will make me more willing to hear what they have to say. Evangelicals frequently send me friend requests on Facebook, even though we have absolutely nothing in common. Some of them will badger me about accepting their friendship. This approach usually results in me bluntly telling them why I do not want to be best buds with them. If all else fails, I tell them to go fuck themselves.
Threats of Judgment and Hell — telling me that I am under the judgment of God and headed for Hell when I die. How they think this approach will draw me to Jesus is beyond me.
Proof Texting — using Bible verses to show me I am wrong and why I need to repent of my sins and get saved. People seem to forget that I was a pastor for twenty-five years; that I likely know a lot more about what the Bible says and teaches than they do. Many Evangelicals are woefully ignorant about the Bible. Once beyond their proof texts, they flounder.
Philosophical Arguments — arguments used to prove the existence of God, God-given morality, or defend God from culpability for evil, pain, and suffering.
None of these approaches works with me. It’s not that I am a reprobate or an apostate — as many Evangelicals allege. Their claims don’t make sense to me. (Please see The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.) I find them to be irrational and illogical. I have been listening to Evangelicals for sixteen years. I can’t tell you the last time I have heard an original or novel argument from an Evangelical apologist. Take Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen. He has written thousands of words about me; countless posts that attack me or respond to something I have written. Thiessen’s position on anything and everything is this: the Bible is right, and you are wrong. End of discussion. Of course, “what the Bible says” actually means Thiessen’s personal interpretations of an ancient religious text. He is not special in this regard. Evangelicals are largely “God (Bible) said it, I believe it” Christians — that is until the Bible conflicts with how they want to live their lives. Then, what the Bible says is just a matter of personal opinion.
Here’s the thing: none of these things matters to the average unbeliever. What does matter is how supposedly born-again, sanctified, and filled-with-the-Holy-Ghost Bible believers live their daily lives. And quite frankly what unbelievers see (and experience) angers and disgusts them. God isn’t the problem, Evangelicals are. It is Evangelicals (and conservative Catholics and Mormons) who gave us Donald Trump. It is Evangelicals who were behind the 1/6 Insurrection. It is Evangelicals behind banning abortion, persecuting LGBTQ people, banning books, and restricting sex education. Worse, many Evangelicals are hell-bent on forcing the American people to obey, under the penalty of law, their interpretation of the Bible. In other words, they want to force their beliefs on secular, unbelieving, non-Evangelical Americans. Is it any surprise that many Americans hate Evangelicals? They want to return the United States to the good old days of the 1950s; a time when Christianity ruled supreme, LGBTQ people were deep in their proverbial closets, Blacks knew their place, and women were keepers of the home, busy with domestic work, cooking meals, bearing children, and fucking their husbands on demand.
If Evangelicals truly want to reach unbelievers, I suggest they stop talking and begin loving their neighbors as themselves. Instead of trying to evangelize people, how about loving them as they are; accepting them as they are; embracing them as fellow travelers on planet earth. Show your faith by how you treat others. Be a people who are known for how they treat people who are different from them; people who are known for their love, mercy, and compassion towards the “least of these.”
Will Evangelicals listen to a lowly, no-account Evangelical-preacher-turned-atheist? Probably not. The Titanic is sinking, and Evangelical are on the deck shouting, I’m right, I’m right, I’m right, as the ship turns over and drowns them in the sea.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Two weeks ago, my interview with Tim Mills, The Harmonic Atheist, was published on YouTube. As of today, over 20,000 people have watched our interview.
With the interest in hearing my story have come scores of Evangelical Christians telling me that I am headed for Hell; that I never was a Christian; that I just needed to pray a simple prayer to Jesus and he would save me. Numerous zealots have weighed in on my story, certain that they know exactly what is “wrong” with me and what I must do to avoid being eternally tortured by their peculiar version of God. Several Calvinists weighed in, saying that it is evident I am a reprobate — one who is beyond the grace of God and cannot be saved. One man simply said, “Bruce is full of horseshit.”
Such is the nature of YouTube. Most content creators don’t moderate comments, so Evangelicals can and do bully and attack people who run afoul of their theology, beliefs, and practices. Tim did delete several comments that were over the top. I appreciate him doing so. On this site, I have strict commenting rules, which Evangelicals routinely ignore. If I had the same comment policy as YouTube, I would be overrun with abusive comments (as was the case years ago). There was a time when hateful comments really got under my skin and caused harm both to me and to the readers of this blog. Sometimes the hostile comments got so bad that I stopped blogging. Those days are long gone. I returned to blogging in December 2014. I made sure that I instituted strict policies governing Evangelicals. I also let Evangelicals know that if they sent me hateful emails I would publicly expose them for doing so. This has dramatically cut down the negative emails and comments I receive, but, as regular readers know, Evangelicals still feel led by the Holy Spirit to “share” with me what Hey-Zeus has laid upon their hearts.
I was raised in the Evangelical church, attended Bible college, and pastored churches for twenty-five years. I preached countless sermons about Hell. I fully understand what Evangelicals believe about Hell, the Lake of Fire, and eternal, everlasting punishment. And my critics KNOW that I know these things. Yet, over the past fifteen years, Evangelicals have told me I am headed for Hell more times than I can count. What do they hope to gain by telling me this? Or is the real issue that they find my story threatening; a reminder of the fact that if someone such as I can lose their faith anyone can? So they hurl hellfire and brimstone my way, hoping to quell their own questions and doubts. That’s why they rarely engage in meaningful discussions with me. Questions and pushback from someone who knows the Bible inside and out threatens their spiritual security, so they stand on the corner across the street from my house and chuck rocks.
Many Evangelicals try to discredit me by saying that I never was a Christian; that I was deceived; that I met a false Jesus. By doing this, they can, with a wave of their hand, ignore my story. The problem with this approach is that they have no evidence for their claim. Evangelicals cannot provide one church member or colleague of mine in the ministry who, at the time I was a pastor, believed I was a “false Christian.” Not one. They can, however, find numerous people who will tell them that I was a devoted follower of Jesus; that I took seriously God’s calling on my life. I wasn’t perfect, to be sure. I am sure my wife, Polly, and our six grown children could share plenty of stories about their husband and father being less than Christian. However, they would likely testify that the bent of my life was certainly toward holiness and love for God.
Many Evangelicals can’t square my story with their soteriology and interpretation of the Bible — especially Baptists — so they assuage their theological confusion by saying I never was a Christian. Instead of questioning their theology or trying to make my story fit their beliefs, they lazily decree that I was a false Christian.
I hate it when people say I never was a Christian. By doing this, Evangelicals discredit fifty of my six-six years of life on planet earth. They pretend that those years and how I lived my life don’t exist. When someone tells me their story I generally believe them. If I have doubt about some aspect of their story — say Evangelicals who say they were atheists before they got saved — I ask questions. I don’t automatically assume they are lying. When someone tells me they are a Christian, I believe them. It is their life, their story. Who I am to say that their experiences are invalid? I may think that some of their experiences won’t survive rational, skeptical examination, but unless they are directly interacting with me or trying to use their subjective experiences as evidence for the existence of God, I am inclined to accept their stories at face value. Life is too short for me to spend much time deconstructing the lives of others. I wish Evangelicals would take the same approach with me. Read my story, ask questions, and I will respond. Read my story and threaten me with Hell or discredit my life? I am likely to gut you like a fish.
The strangest approach comes from Evangelicals who think that prayer is some sort of magic spell; that if I would just sincerely pray a prayer they prescribe (which often contains heretical theology), Jesus would hear my prayer, save me from my sin, and give me a home in Heaven when I die. Every time an Evangelical takes this approach with me, I stop what I am doing and pray their prescribed prayer. I have done this countless times, yet I remain an atheist. Either prayer doesn’t work the way they think it does, or God is a myth. My money is on the latter.
As many Evangelicals-turned-atheists/agnostics have done, when I began having doubts about Christianity and the Bible, I pleaded with God to show me the truth. I begged him to show me a way to remain a Christian. One former friend and a colleague in the ministry told me that I needed to stop asking questions and just faith-it. A former church member told me that I needed to stop reading books. “Just read the Bible, Bruce,” she told me. Of course, I couldn’t do that. I had always been a voracious reader who was willing to change my beliefs if warranted. As congregants and pastor friends, they admired my intellectualism, but now they wanted me to return to an ignorant, child-like faith. My best friend, at the time, took a different approach with me. He wrote me a blistering email that said I was under the influence of Satan, unstable in all my ways. He made no attempt to pull me back from the abyss. Instead, he castigated me for ruining my family. None of these people, and others like them, were willing or able to honestly, openly, and without reservation, interact with me. Would their intervention have made a difference? No. I knew that their answers were no match for my questions. I was reading non-Evangelical scholars and theologians. I was also reading books by prominent unbelievers. I had spent twenty-five years reading books by Evangelical authors, so there was no need to re-read their books. Solomon said, “there is nothing new under the sun,” and that is especially true when it comes to Evangelical theology.
As my knowledge increased and the truth came into better focus, I once again asked God to step in and save me from myself. Alas, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords was silent, and he has remained silent until this very moment. I have concluded, then, that either God doesn’t give a shit about me or he doesn’t exist. All the evidence suggests to me that he doesn’t exist.
There’s nothing I can do to stop Evangelicals from doing what Evangelicals do. All I am saying in this post to Evangelicals is this: you might want to try a different approach with me (and atheists, in general). Threats of Hell fall on deaf ears. Suggesting that I was never a Christian only brings laughs and incredulity. And finally, asking me to pray shallow, often heretical prayers is making you look bad. How you frame the gospel in your prescribed prayers suggest that you really don’t understand the Christian gospel at all. Instead of asking me to pray a prayer, you might actually want to read your Bible and seriously study Christian soteriology. Maybe you are the one who isn’t saved. 🙂
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
You stopped by the Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser yesterday to share your “testimony,” to tell me how much you “love” me, to beg me to pray a prayer, and then to offer up a prayer of your own for the atheist Bruce Gerencser. In doing so, you disrespected me and showed no regard for me as a person. All you saw was a man in need of your brand of Christian salvation.
Suppose you went to your mother’s house and she told you, “Chad, please take your shoes off at the door and hang your coat in the closet.” Would you respect her wishes? Or would you leave your shoes on and throw your coat on the floor? I suspect, as a good son, you would do as she asked.
When you clicked on the link for the CONTACT page, you were presented with a page that told you what kind of emails I was interested in receiving. I specifically said to you, Chad:
If you are an Evangelical Christian, please read Dear Evangelical before sending me an email. If you have a pathological need to evangelize, spread the love of Jesus, or put a good word in for the man, the myth, the legend named Jesus, please don’t. The same goes for telling me your church/pastor/Jesus is awesome. I am also not interested in reading sermonettes, testimonials, Bible verses, or your deconstruction/psychological evaluation of my life. By all means, if you feel the need to set me straight, start your own blog.
You chose to ignore my requests. You came into my house, left your shoes on, and threw your coat on the floor, showing no regard for me as a person. I subscribe to the rule, “when in Rome, do as the Romans do.” I have bowed my head at countless meals as Christians prayed to their deity. Not one time have I ever made a fuss about them praying to mythical beings. Why? I know it would be disrespectful if I did so.
You began your letter by saying that my story moved you to tears. You then feign syrupy, shallow Christian love for me. You wrote:
I’m a Christian and read your story and was moved to tears. I’m not here to condemn you but share my story with you want to hear it. If you dont feel free not to read past this point. But one thing I have to tell you; I dont know you and yet feel such love for you. My heart aches to hear the pain you endured in life. I truly understand pain; I wish I didn’t.
You say you are a Christian, and I accept your testimony at face value. Why could you have not done the same for me? Did you read any of my autobiographical material before deeming yourself sufficiently informed to weigh in on my life? You admit that you don’t know me, yet you say you have “such love for me.” You go on to say that your “heart aches to hear the pain I [have] endured in life.” Imagine if a stranger came up to you at Starbucks and said, ” I feel your pain. I can sense that you have endured much in your life. I want you to know that I love you.” I suspect you would quickly take three steps back, mumble “thanks” and quickly get the hell away from this woman. Why? She knows nothing about you. How could she possibly “love” you and understand what you have been through? She can’t.
Let me educate you about what former Evangelicals think about zealots using shallow, superficial “love” to evangelize them. They see right through you. They know that expressing “love” is an evangelism tool used to “connect” with and “hook” unwary marks. The same goes for sharing testimonies. Former Evangelicals know that testimonies are used to make human connections with evangelization targets. “Love” and personal testimonies are ways to break down resistance to the gospel. “See, I am (or was) just like you.” Zealots hope by making a personal connection with sinners that they will be more receptive for a gospel sales pitch.
You see, Chad, former Evangelicals are experts at recognizing these sales techniques. In my case, I used them for years. I see that you are affiliated with CRU — Campus Crusade for Christ. Did they teach you these evangelism techniques? If yes, please write in your notes: “does not work with former Evangelicals, especially those who are now atheists and agnostics.” You might add another note: “these techniques piss former Evangelicals off and make them less likely to hear the gospel.” In other words, Chad. Don’t do it!
You shared your “testimony” without me asking you to so do. Here’s what you said:
My grandma was a native of Mexico; she was mentally ill and blew her head off. My dad was 12 at the time or around that age. He ran into the room after hearing the shot and as you can imagine was destroyed by what he saw. My dad too was an atheist/agnostic and worked as in engineer for Boeing for 40 something years. He is a brilliant man of science with his degree in Physics. Sadly he never worked through his childhood trauma and beat me and my sister who has borderline personality disorder. I grew to hate dad passionately. I lived in fear of him and began power lifting in high school and playing football. I eventually weighed 215 and the abuse stopped one day when I realized I could protect myself from him. We got in a fight one night and as usual he threatened to beat me. I got in his face and basically told him his time of terror was over and if he dared put a hand on me or my sister I would crush him. He must of believed me because he sat down and said nothing else. We said nothing to each other after that horrible fight for a year. I would have laughed if he died. I went on to be a huge problem at school and was almost expelled for almost fighting a teacher that mouthed off to me. I graduated and took a job as a male stripper in St. Louis, MO. It was a great life of girls, money, and late parties. My girlfriend was also a stripper. I worked for Chic Entertainment. I’m not sure but they may still be in operation.
My freshman year in college some goofy girl and next door neighbor kept coming over to visit our dorm room, and she wouldn’t shut up about Jesus. She kept asking me to “receive” him whatever that meant. I told her I”m cool with JC, but I”m a stripper, and I’m not the Christian type. She told me I just the type Jesus wanted, and he would help me change. I thought….cool…whatever…..one night in the shower a week or so later I got on my knees and did the whole “pray to receive Jesus” thing. To my astonishment such a peace I’ve never known washed over me. I thought I had conjured it up because I wanted to believe this stuff. I couldn’t shake it either. I felt this presence around me that I could only describe as overwhelming love.
I began to wonder if this Jesus fellow might be true. I began studying religions and looking at historical evidence to see if I could make sense what happened to me. As I was doing this my personality changed dramatically. I went from being “tough guy” who told anyone I didn’t like to “F” off to suddenly feeling so much love for everyone. And that hate for my dad’s abuse just drained away. I literally felt no more hate for the guy. He noticed the change and asked what happened to you. I told him I didn’t know but told him I prayed to receive Jesus. He basically laughed in my face and told me not to give him all that God crap. He kept grilling me with hard questions, and as a new Christian I didn’t know the answers. I just kept telling him if you want to find out you need to pray to receive Christ and see what happens.
A very long story short my dad became a Christian, we both went to seminary, and both ended up in ministry. He is now one of my best friends and our family is so changed it’s unrecognizable. After 6 years in ministry I was praying in the woods before a mission trip to Africa to work with aids orphans. I was bitten by a tick and contracted numerous tick infections including: Lyme, Bartonella, and Babesia. I lived in hell for the next 12 years. For 10 of those years I lived on the brink of death. I could barely eat, breathe, sleep, walk. I begged God for death. My suffering was a constant writhing in agony. I couldn’t sit and even watch TV because my pain was constant or nightmarish. I felt so utterly forsaken by God. Another long story short a new medicine was made available to me, and I’m nearly recovered.
I might normally have been sympathetic towards you had we gotten to know each other, become friends, and shared with each other the struggles we have faced in life. Instead, your unprompted “story” smacks of an evangelism technique; an attempt to hook a big fish and reel him in for Jesus.
Chad, you wrote:
Bruce, you cant shake the feeling of Jesus because he real and reaching out to you. Life is hell let’s face it. Christ never said it would be otherwise. Some of the greatest saints suffered the most. Please Bruce, with tears get on your knees each night or 5 second prayers here and there and say, “Jesus, I dont believe you but please if you are real and Im wrong help me…show me….make a way.” You’re saying to me right now….but i’ve already done this. Please keep trying Bruce…please.
You say, “Bruce, you cant shake the feeling of Jesus because he real and reaching out to you.” You seem to be quite arrogant, Chad. How could you possibly know these things? What makes you think I have the “feeling of Jesus?” I have no such thing. The only feeling I have as I write this letter to you is excruciating physical pain from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet. The pain is so severe in my spine today that I want to die. Literally. I choose, however, to keep plodding through life. I bought a new recliner today, hoping it will lessen my pain. I went to lunch with my wife of forty-five years and our daughter with Down syndrome. We had a delightful afternoon, even though the food I ate caused me all sorts of problems; as food does EVERY TIME I eat. I make the most of what life I have, knowing that I am on the short side of life. If Jesus really cares for me, how about taking away my pain or nausea? How about doing something miraculous that would reveal to me that he is real? Instead, he sends you. He always sends people like you; Evangelicals who have no regard for me as a person and only see me as a target for evangelization; just another notch on their gospel guns.
Jesus isn’t “reaching out to me,” Chad. He’s dead. Besides, even if Jesus is alive as you believe, how do you know he’s trying to reach me at 666-666-6669? Maybe the line is off the hook or disconnected. Maybe I am an apostate; a reprobate. You do know what the Bible says about reprobates, right? I am confident (and happy) that I have crossed the proverbial line of no return. You are wasting your time trying to evangelize me.
Your life might be “hell,” but mine isn’t. Sure, I live a pain-filled life. I struggle to move, walk, and do “normal,” everyday things. But, as long as I have Polly, my wife, our six children, and our thirteen grandchildren, life isn’t “hell,” not even close. I see most of my children and grandchildren every week or two. I am blessed to have my family close by. Because this life is the only one I will ever have, I intend to make the most of every day. I give this advice on my ABOUT page:
You have one life. There is no heaven or hell. There is no afterlife. You have one life, it’s yours, and what you do with it is what matters most. Love and forgive those who matter to you and ignore those who add nothing to your life. Life is too short to spend time trying to make nice with those who will never make nice with you. Determine who are the people in your life that matter and give your time and devotion to them. Live each and every day to its fullest. You never know when death might come calling. Don’t waste time trying to be a jack of all trades, master of none. Find one or two things you like to do and do them well. Too many people spend way too much time doing things they will never be good at.
Here’s the conclusion of the matter. It’s your life and you best get to living it. Someday, sooner than you think, it will be over. Don’t let your dying days be ones of regret over what might have been.
You go on to ask me, “Bruce, with tears get on your knees each night or 5 second prayers here and there and say, “Jesus, I dont believe you but please if you are real and Im wrong help me…show me….make a way.” You’re saying to me right now….but i’ve already done this. Please keep trying Bruce…please.”
Do you have any idea how often Evangelicals have taken this approach with me over the past fifteen years? Hundreds of times. Here’s what your plea says to me: you want me to conjure up a dead man. This is not different from a Voodoo incantation. Besides, do you know how offensive it is to ask a crippled man who can’t walk without the aid of a wheelchair or cane to get on his knees?
Let me be clear, I have no interest in your God, Jesus, or religion. I have no interest in buying what you are peddling. I am not low-hanging fruit. I likely know the Bible better than you do. I know all I need to know about Christianity. I have weighed the central claims of Christianity in the balance and found them wanting. Besides, I have the revelation of conscience and creation (Romans 1,2). I have all that is necessary for me to “believe.” Yet, I remain unconvinced. Ponder that for awhile, Chad. “Think” instead of acting.
You conclude your email to me with an arrogant, self-righteous prayer, a common form of spiritual masturbation among Evangelical zealots.
You wrote:
Lord, I feel such love for Bruce. I’m asking in response to this prayer a series of miracles would get my brother’s attention. I pray you press into him with your love and presence so powerfully it would overwhelm him with delight in spite of himself. Give him the grace to again call on your name even in disbelief. …..and please Lord answer him with such power he cant deny the miracle. Jesus please let me walk on streets of gold with Bruce someday and may we spend eternity as dear friends. God love you Bruce! If you read this far thank you!!!!
I am not your “brother,” Chad. I don’t want to be your “brother” either. I also don’t want to walk on fictional streets of gold with you. Quite frankly, I am not that into you. What makes you think that I would want to spend eternity with the Chad Lawrences of the world? Give me Christopher Hitchens, Steven Hawking, and Steve Gupton in Hell every time. You may want to spend eternity in constant worship and fealty to a man who took a long weekend for you, but I don’t. That sounds like hell, to me.
You are telling me with your prayer that you think there is something fundamentally wrong with me. You know very little about me. In fact, you know so little about me that you couldn’t pass a ten-question exam about my life. Yet, you feel justified in rendering judgment on my life and telling me what I should do. To that, I say, fuck off.
If there is a God, he knows exactly where I am. He knows where I live. He knows my phone number and email address. He can contact me at any time. Better yet, he can show up on my doorstep and take me out to lunch. That said, I will tell you this: if I am miraculously healed of gastroparesis, fibromyalgia, and degenerative spine disease, I will put my faith and trust in Jesus and return to church. You have thirty days to make this happen, Chad. Fast and pray without ceasing for Bruce Gerencser. Gather your spouse and CRU buddies together and pray for God to heal me. Let’s put your prayers to the test. With God, all things are possible, right? Nothing is too hard for God, the Bible says. So here, I am, Chad. To quote Captain Jean Luc Picard, “make it so, number one.”
I hope you have realized by now that contacting me in the manner that you did was a bad idea. We shall see if you learned anything.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
I’ll weigh in! So I’m reading that the Bible nor God is your source of moral authority or any type of authority,for that matter, on anything. Got it! That’s entirely up to you!
Christianity is a text-based religion. Without the Bible, Christianity wouldn’t exist. Everything we know about God and Jesus comes from the Bible. Evangelical Christians believe that the Bible is supernaturally inspired, inerrant, and infallible. Thus, Evangelicals see the Bible as a divine moral code by which sinners and saints must govern their lives. Failing to do so puts people in danger of judgment and eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire.
Dilliard intimates that she derives her morality from God and a supernatural book allegedly written by him. Christians generally think everyone can know God through divine revelation: conscience, nature, and the Bible. Thus, atheists deliberately deny and reject what is clearly known to them. Atheists, according to the book of Romans “suppress the truth in unrighteousness.”
Atheists see the Bible as an errant, fallible ancient religious text written by fallible, frail (mostly unknown) men. Many atheists, myself included, find some value in reading the Bible — say the Book of Ecclesiastes, the Sermon on the Mount, and Matthew 25 — but treat it as any other book. Evangelicals, on the other hand, believe, in theory anyway, that every word of the Bible is true; that we are duty-bound to obey and practice the teaching of the Bible — as interpreted by each Christian, preacher, and theologian. In Evangelical Christianity, each Christian is a Pope — an infallible interpreter of the Bible.
In the real world, Evangelicals are buffet believers, picking and choosing what Bible commands, laws, and precepts they want to believe and practice. No Christian believes and practices all of the Bible. Their morality is just as subjective and conditional as that of the unwashed, uncircumcised Philistines of the world.
Dilliard needs a divine lawgiver outside of herself in order to be moral. Without this lawgiver, she wouldn’t be moral. The only thing keeping her from being a murderer, rapist, kidnapper, or thief is her peculiar version of God. Without God, she would do all sorts of heinous, evil things.
If this really is the case, then by all means she should keep believing in God and following the teachings of the Bible. For me, I don’t need a source outside of myself to be moral. I don’t need a deity telling me what is right and wrong for me to be a moral and ethical human being.
Dillard provides no evidence for the existence of God and the claims she makes for the Bible. I suspect she’s a presuppositionalist, presupposing that her deity exists and the teachings of the Bible are true. I am, for the most part, an evidentialist. I want to believe as many true things as possible. If someone wants me to believe something, she must provide sufficient evidence for her claim.
So let’s talk about where YOUR moral authority comes from , then. Do you believe there’s a right or wrong?
All morality is inherently subjective. There are a plethora of views on morality. As an atheist, I don’t think morality exists outside of self. Some atheists believe that there are moral absolutes, but I am of the opinion that morality is subjective. That said, we live in societies that benefit from commonly held moral beliefs. As with the U.S. Constitution, “we the people” decide the moral standards by which we will govern our societies. That’s why we have laws, rules, and regulations. As a member of a particular society, I consent to adhering to and obeying these things, knowing that if I don’t, I could be punished or imprisoned. Productive, happy societies depend on the consent of the governed. Christians and atheists agree that certain behaviors are wrong. If we don’t like certain laws, rules, and regulations we, through the ballot box, change them. We are seeing this played out with abortion. The U.S. Supreme Court reversed Roe v. Wade in 2022. Now we are seeing moves in a number of states to enact laws and state constitutional amendments to reverse the damage done by the Court’s decision. That’s how it works in democratic societies. WE THE PEOPLE decide the laws, rules, and regulations we want to be governed by. If our elected leaders don’t do our bidding, we vote them out of office, replacing them with someone who will.
Dilliard seems to want an autocratic or authoritarian society; one where her God and interpretations of the Bible are the law; the determiner of what is moral. Instead of “we the people” deciding how we want to be governed and live, Dilliard believes a supernatural authority outside of us is the one and only authority on morality.
There are thousands of religions and deities, each believing they are right; that their god is the moral arbiter of the universe. How do we determine which religion/deity is right? How could we possibly know that Dilliard’s peculiar deity is the one true God; the moral arbiter of the universe? I know of no way to determine whether her God is the right one.
Thus, I believe that determining what is moral rests on the individual and the societies to which they belong. How can an individual or a society determine what is moral? The best way, in my humble opinion, is to determine what best promotes flourishing, happiness, prosperity, and peace.
If so, who told you lying is right or wrong? Who told you stealing is right or wrong? Who told you to teach your kids not to be selfish? Where did they learn to be selfish,( or not) did you teach them? Why is being selfish wrong or could it be right? Selfishness is a character flaw but how do we know that? How do we know? How do you know cheating on your wife is wrong?
As it has for all humans, including Dillard, my morality has evolved over my sixty-six years of life. Certainly, my parents, church, and the Bible played a big part in the formation of my moral beliefs. Over time, I have learned that my parents, church, and the Bible were wrong about some (many) things. When I deconverted in 2008, I was given a new opportunity to determine what, exactly, were my moral and ethical values. I reevaluated my moral beliefs, holding on to some of them and casting aside others. This, of course, is hard work. Christians don’t have to think about their moral beliefs. God said it, that settles it, Evangelicals say. That’s why we see such hateful behavior by Evangelicals towards LGBTQ people, liberals, atheists, and anyone else who is different from them. God has spoken, end of discussion. Human flourishing never enters the discussion. All that matters is what is written in ink on the pages of the Bible — as interpreted by individual Christians.
Could it be wrong for you but right for someone else? … On and on…. If you are your own moral authority ,or believe our government is your moral authority, how do you know you are right or the government is right and why should I believe you?
I have moral beliefs that conflict with the beliefs of others. For example, I am a pacifist. On principle, I oppose all war. I oppose the death penalty too. I believe it is immoral to kill people. Yet, I recognize that there are times when killing someone might be justified, say in defensive wars or defending one’s family. Each of us decides what we consider moral/immoral. How can it be otherwise? Interjecting God into the discussion changes nothing. Many of the wars humans have fought were initiated and prosecuted by people who believe in God; people who ignored the pacifistic teachings of Christ to win their objective.
I am a rationalist, a skeptic, and a humanist. I use these prisms to determine whether I am justified to believe things. I am humble enough to admit that I could be wrong. Unfortunately, Evangelicals are an arrogant lot. Armed with certainty, they lack nuance, seeing everything through a black-and-white lens. That’s why the culture war is raging in every corner of our republic.
How can you say Ray Boltz is right or wrong in his own belief system? Does the Universe tell you these things? Does the culture/civil society teach you these things but how do you know that if right, not wrong?
I make no judgment of Ray Boltz’s life. His sexuality is his business, not mine, or anyone else for that matter. What consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes is none of my business. Evangelicals, of course, want to criminalize any sex that is not married, heterosexual, and monogamous intercourse in the missionary position. Okay, maybe not that last one, but many Evangelicals think blow jobs, anal sex, or sexual aggression by a woman are sins. There are no cowboys to ride in Evangelicalism. 🙂 Worse, many Christians think using birth control is a sin; that the goal of all sex is procreation.
Or is there some hidden moral code/authority that only atheist’s are privy too? Inquiring minds want to know…
Dilliard is being disingenuous when she says “inquiring minds want to know.” I suspect she already “knows”; that there is nothing I can say that will change her morality and worldview.
As I made clear in this post, most atheists think the locus of morality is self, both individually and as a society. There is no Atheist Ten Commandments or Atheist Bible. As someone who has spent the past fifteen years swimming in atheist waters, I can tell you that atheists vigorously debate the subject of morality. There is no Atheist Morality. All I can say is what I believe on any given subject. I suspect most of the atheists who frequent this site will generally agree with me on the subject of morality, though I know there are some who don’t. And that’s okay. The only way we can come to a consensus is to debate these issues. “Iron sharpeneth iron” the Bible says, and I think that applies to discussions among atheists too. Sadly, the same can’t be said for discussions with Evangelicals. Most of them aren’t open to honest discussion and faith. They KNOW they are right, so their goal is to get people who disagree with them to tap out. Faith, presuppositionalism, and certainty make it nigh impossible to have meaningful discussions with Evangelicals on virtually anything, including morality.
Maybe Dillard is different. We shall see.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Several days ago, an atheist told me I must have been pretty “stupid” if it took me fifty years to realize that Christianity was false. He proudly told me that he figured out as a child that God was a myth, and from that point forward he was an atheist. He added that “God” was no different from Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. In other words, he was saying that I must have been pretty dull if it took me five decades of my life to figure out what he figured out as a mere child.
Most atheists who take this approach with me grew up in nominal Christian homes Typically, they have little to no understanding of Evangelical theology and practice. Lacking knowledge and understanding of that which they criticize, these atheists set themselves up as the standard for deconversion. In their minds, anyone with any sense at all should be able to figure out there’s no God by the time he reaches sixth grade.
These hyperbolic atheists seem to not understand how Fundamentalist religious indoctrination and conditioning make it impossible for people to “see” the truth about God, Jesus, the Bible, and Christianity. I grew up in a dysfunctional Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) home. God, church, and the Bible permeated every aspect of my life. One-hundred-eighty times or more a year, I attended services and events that reinforced IFB theological and social beliefs and practices. That’s one service every other day. And then there were private acts of personal piety: daily prayer and Bible reading.
At the age of five, I told my mom that God wanted me to be a preacher when I grew up. Ten years later, I got saved and baptized, and two weeks later I stood before the church and told them God was calling me to preach. Several weeks after that, I preached my first sermon. At the age of nineteen, I enrolled at Midwestern Baptist College to study for the ministry. I married a preacher’s daughter. Together, we spent twenty-five years in the ministry. My life was all about the Evangelical God.
I spent almost fifty years in the Evangelical bubble. In the bubble, everything made sense; everything was internally consistent. Imagine a world where everyone has similar beliefs and moral values. Imagine where everything modeled to you as a child by adults and people in positions of authority reinforces IFB beliefs and practices. Imagine being part of a sect that separated itself from the “world”; from everything contrary to their version of “truth.” Imagine long lists of rules and regulations (church standards) that governed virtually every aspect of your life, from the length of your hair to the clothing you wear. Imagine being taught that God is all-knowing and all-seeing, and he will punish any deviations from church standards. All of these things taken together make one thing very clear: I couldn’t have been anything other than what I was.
My path in life was predetermined by my upbringing and intense religious conditioning and indoctrination. By the time I was old enough to understand life, it was already too late. Both counselors I have had over the years have told me that it is remarkable that I escaped the Evangelical bubble — especially as a preacher. By the time people reach the age of fifty, they rarely are willing to abandon beliefs they have held their entire lives. For me personally, I had invested my entire life in servitude to God and the church. I had sacrificed my financial and physical well-being seeking spiritual fulfillment and eternal life. The sunk costs were so great that it was almost impossible for me to walk away (and for Polly to walk away with me). Yet, I did. Why? Because I valued intellectual honesty. So stupid I was not. When my beliefs were challenged by evidence I couldn’t overcome, I changed my beliefs. And that’s why I am an atheist today.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
A few days ago, I received an email from an eighty-one-year-old woman named Wanda Sims. Sims read all of two posts before sending me a message that God allegedly laid upon their heart. My brief response follows. All spelling and grammar in the original.
There is one Go ,in 3 persons Father, Son Holy Spirit.
Sims provides no evidence for her claim there is one God, uh I mean three Gods, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. As most Christians do when they come to this site to deliver to me a message from their peculiar version of God, Sims makes all sorts of claims without providing any evidence for them. She presupposes that her God is the one true GO, and all others deities are false. Thus Sims is an atheist too.
God is love!!
I see no evidence in our world that this claim is true. In fact, what I do see is that God is anything but love. Look at all violence, pain, suffering, and death in the world. Where is God? Even in the Bible we see a God, as Richard Dawkins suggests:
“is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
I would love Sims to take the events of Genesis 6-9 (Noah’s Flood) and justify her claim that God is love. Her God drowned millions of people, including children, infants, and fetuses. What an awesome God!
I pray you will have your eyes opened ,and the truth will guide you to see truth.
My eyes today are more open than they ever have been. If Sims wants me to see and know “truth,” I suggest that she share it with me. Let’s talk about “truth, Wanda. I’m game, are you?
You gave up on God, he still loves you. If you repent he is faithfull and just to forgive you.
I didn’t give up on God. I weighed the central claims of Christianity in the balance and found them wanting. Surely Sims would want me to follow the evidence and believe as many true things as possible.
How does Sims know God still loves me? According to countless Evangelical zealots, I am an apostate; a reprobate; a tool of Satan; an enemy of God. Based on the teachings of the Bible, God doesn’t love me. I have crossed a line of no return. I have been repeatedly told that I am a modern-day Judas, a son of perdition. Did Jesus savingly love Judas? Of course not.
I put Sims’ claims to the test. I just repented of all my sins, even the “secret” ones, and asked Jesus to save me from my sins. Did God forgive me? Is it really that easy? Nothing more is required of me but to repent and believe? Good to know. I am now s-a-v-e-d! 🙂 Yes, Wanda, this is me mocking you and your silly, bankrupt gospel.
I don’t want to be your BFF, but my heart hearts for you and those you have lead astray.
That’s good, because why would I want to be friends with someone who doesn’t respect me? Sims chose to deliberately ignore my requests on the Contact page. She sent me a preachy email, hoping that I would see the “light.” She paid no attention to my background, thinking that her rambling email would do anything to return me to the faith.
I’m not a Crack pot
I don’t know about that. What should I make of someone who seeks out strangers on the Internet and emails them? What should I make of someone who shows no regard for me; whose only goal is to put in a good word for Jesus? Jesus Fucking Christ, I am a fellow human being. How about treating me like one?
I spent fifty years in Evangelical Christianity. I pastored churches in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan for twenty-five years. I preached over 4,000 sermons, and spent 20,000 hours reading and studying the Bible. I am confident I know more about the Bible and Christianity than Sims goes. What possibly could she say to me that I don’t already know?
Of course, Sims read none of my autobiographical writing, so maybe she doesn’t know these things. If so, I would like to share with her what God says in Proverbs 18:13: Answering before listening is both stupid and rude.
just a 81 yr old woman that loves the Lord and have seen his love,beauty,miraculous works and mercy and love.
And I am just a sixty-five-year-old man who loves his wife of forty-five years, six grown adult children, thirteen grandchildren, and cats named Joe Meower and Socks. I have seen their love, beauty, mercy, and works. My family is the only God I need.
I pray you find your way back to this one true and loving God.
Well, as I mentioned above, I repented, so I am good to go. All praise be to Loki, the one true God of rural northwest Ohio.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
