Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
An atheist, then, lacks belief in gods. That’s atheism in a nutshell.
I self describe as an agnostic atheist. Since I don’t possess all knowledge about the existence of one or more deities, I am agnostic on the God question. It is possible that at some point in the future, a god may make itself known to us. Unlikely, but possible.
As far as the extant deities are concerned, I am an atheist. I am convinced that the Abrahamic God is a myth. The same goes for the other gods humans created and worship. I have exhaustively studied the claims of Christianity. I am convinced these claims are false. I can’t imagine any evidence will be presented in the future to move me off the conclusion that the central claims of Christianity are false. (Please see The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.)
Last week, I purchased a New Oxford NRSVue Study Bible. What an awesome, beautiful Bible. Don’t worry, I don’t plan on returning to Christianity. I haven’t read the Bible from cover to cover for seventeen years. I thought I would reread it and do some writing about what I learn. One series I want to write will detail the violent God of the Bible. Fun times ahead, Loki-willing. 🙂
Antitheism, also spelled anti-theism, is the philosophical position that theism should be opposed. The term has had a range of applications. In secular contexts, it typically refers to direct opposition to the belief in any deity.
Antitheists are actively opposed to gods and religions.
I am not an antitheist. I am indifferent towards religions that keep to themselves and don’t stick their noses in my life and the lives of other unbelievers. I have Christian friends, mainly liberal believers. I also have acquaintances who are Unitarians or practice earth-based religions. Their religious practices don’t bother me in the least. I am, however, opposed to religions that try to evangelize people, control the government, and force people to live according to their peculiar interpretations of a religious text. Technically, then, I am anti-Evangelical, anti-IFB, anti-Mormon, anti-Jehovah’s Witnesses, and anti- other fundamentalist religions. Such religions are psychologically harmful and can cause physical harm, especially to women and children. Fundamentalism is the problem.
Sadly, some hardcore antitheists consider me a fake atheist or a closeted Christian. If I don’t hate who and what they hate, I am a fraud or a fake. They are, in my opinion, fundamentalist atheists, every bit as repugnant as hardcore Independent Baptist preachers.
How do you self-describe yourself? Please share your thoughts in the comment section.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
What follows is my response to another email from Independent Fundamentalist Evangelist Arv Edgeworth
Mr. Gerencser,
So nice to hear from you. I don’t read your blog so I won’t be reading your replies to my emails to Carolyn. I read your “Why” section, and all I saw was poor logic on your account, so I have no desire to read any further.
That’s up to you. Remember, you came to this site and then emailed me.
You claim I use poor logic, yet you provide no evidence for your claim. What laws of logic have I violated?
Bruce, you blame God and the “Church” for you neglecting your family. I have known several pastors who built strong ministries, and they had strong family ties, and I saw no evidence they neglected their families in any way. I’m sorry you neglected yours. But that is on YOU, not God.
I don’t blame “God.” He is a myth, so it would be foolish to blame a mythical being for something that happened in my life. I accept full responsibility for the choices I have made throughout my life. Part of accepting responsibility is determining why a certain decision was made. From this perspective, my pastors, professors, and the churches I pastored all played a part in how I neglected my family. I was indoctrinated and conditioned to view the world a certain way. The same goes for how I viewed my calling and the work of the ministry. I can’t be at fault for practicing what I was taught or what was modeled to me by my pastors and peers. I did what I thought was right in the eyes of God. Over time, my thinking changed. How I viewed the ministry in 1976 was very different from the way I viewed it in 1997. Unfortunately, Edgeworth does what many of my critics do: he takes a snapshot of a certain point in my life and applies it to the sum of my life, not allowing for change as I got older and matured.
I was a Creation evangelist for over 20 years, giving over 450 seminars in 27 different states. Sometimes my wife couldn’t go with me because she was our church secretary for 27 years, but she is my best friend, and we are both close to our kids. We will celebrate 60 wonderful years of marriage this week.
Okay? I’m not sure what the point is. We all have a storyline. In my case, I was saved at the age of fifteen and called to preach several weeks later. In the fall of 1976, I enrolled in classes at Midwestern Baptist College in Pontiac, Michigan — an IFB college started in 1954 by Dr. Tom Malone. (Malone, by the way, had an earned doctorate from an accredited state school.) While at Midwestern, I met a beautiful IFB preacher’s daughter. Two years later, we married, and this July we will celebrate forty-seven years of wedded bliss. We are blessed to have six adult children, sixteen grandchildren, and four cats.
My ministerial career of twenty-five years took my partner and me to Evangelical churches (IFB, Southern Baptist, Sovereign Grace Baptist, Christian Union, and Nondenominational) in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. I left the ministry in 2005 and converted from Christianity in 2008. I am now an atheist and a humanist.
You claim you had an intimate relationship with Christ for many years, but now claim He never existed. It can’t be both.
People change their minds. When I was a Christian, I had an intimate relationship with Jesus. I was a sincere follower of Christ. And now I am an atheist. I learned over the years that religious faith is complex; that people, myself included, can hold beliefs that are not true.
I have never said Jesus wasn’t a real person. I am not a mythicist. I think Jesus was a Jewish apocalyptic preacher who was executed for his opposition to the Roman government. He was buried in an unknown grave, never to be seen or heard from again. What I reject are the supernatural claims made for Jesus.
You blame God for all bad things in the world, then claim God doesn’t exist. More bad logic?
If God is the sovereign creator of the universe, then, yes, he is responsible for the good and bad that happens in the world. I can make a solid theological argument for this claim; a belief, by the way, I held when I was a pastor.
I can easily defend my past beliefs if challenged. After all, the Bible can be used to prove almost anything.
Like I told Carolyn, you blaming God for everything bad, would be like me seeing a smashed Chevy and no longer believing in General Motors as a great company because they build automobiles that can be smashed by humans. Poor logic.
If God is in control of all things, then, yes, God is responsible for everything, including automobiles.
If Edgeworth wants to discuss or debate this issue, I am game.
You might want to reconsider being an atheist though, if God doesn’t exist then you can’t blame Him for all your failures and the failures of other people. Then the responsibility for you neglecting your family falls only on you. If God doesn’t exist, then you can’t blame Him for creating a world where bad things can happen.
As I have repeatedly stated, I accept responsibility for every decision I have ever made. I have been honest and open about the churches I pastored, detailing both my successes and failures. That said, I refuse to accept blame for things that were not my fault or over which I had no control.
As an atheist and a humanist, I accept and understand that bad things can and do happen, not only to me but to other people. I have had a rough road in life. Life is what it is. All I know to do is to learn from past experiences. I wouldn’t wish my childhood on anyone. Sure, I survived, but not without a hell of a lot of deep wounds and scars. As a 68-year-old man, most of my struggles these days are health-related. I have gastroparesis and exocrine pancreatic insufficiency — both incurable — osteoarthritis, fibromyalgia, and degenerative spine disease (that has left me with widespread disc damage in my neck and spine). In August, I had major surgery on my spine. Virtually every moment of my waking hours is dominated by debilitating pain and illness. I should note, before a Christian reader suggests that my health problems are God’s judgment for my unbelief, I started having health problems years before I deconverted. Countless prayers were uttered asking for deliverance or relief, without success.
I won’t be reading your blog that I am sure will be filled with more bad logic, but if you wish to communicate via emails that would be fine. I hope you get things straightened out in your mind so you can put things in proper perspective.
As far as getting straightened out, I am as “straight” as I can be. One hundred percent heterosexual. 🙂
When Edgeworth says “proper perspective” he means seeing things as he does, believing as he does. Remember, certainty breeds arrogance, and there’s nothing more arrogant than expecting and demanding that others believe as you do. That said, I am more than happy to embrace Edgeworth’s beliefs, provided he can give me empirical evidence for his claims. It’s really that simple. I operate on evidence. My goal is to believe as many true things as possible. That’s why I deconverted. The central claims of Christianity no longer made any sense to me. I expand my thinking on this subject in the post titled The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.
We humans mess up sometimes. Blaming a God Who you say doesn’t exist isn’t the answer. Just curious, will you be worshiping the Easter Bunny next Sunday?
I have sufficiently addressed your false claim above. Again, let me be clear, I give blame and credit to whom blame and credit are due. I do, however, worship my wife. Now, there’s a God worthy of worship. 🙂
Unlike Edgeworth, I do not worship inanimate or mythical beings.
Bruce, what you BELIEVE isn’t the REALITY of the way things ACTUALLY are. I know it makes things easier for you in the make-believe world you have built for yourself, which removes a lot of the responsibility for yourself.
Says who? What evidence do you have for this claim other than that you have convinced yourself that your worship and fealty to a mythical being is “reality.” It’s not. I am a materialist. Since God is an immaterial being and you cannot provide empirical evidence for his existence, “God” is not a part of reality (outside of having to live and interact with people who believe God exists and is personally involved in their lives).
Life is actually much harder for humanists. As a Christian, every belief and action was parsed through the teachings of the Bible. What the Bible said was all that mattered. THUS SAITH THE LORD! As a humanist, I have to develop carefully the moral and ethical framework by which I live my life. There are no humanist Ten Commandments, no humanist standard.
If God does exist, you messed up. But guess what, if God doesn’t exist, you still messed up and are still messing up. But now you are also responsible for all the people you are misleading. If you cared about others, instead of just yourself, you would want them to know the REAL TRUTH. Your whole blog or website is based on bad logic and delusion, and is leading people away from God instead of toward Him.
In what way am I “misleading” people? All I know to do is share my story. I don’t try to convert people to atheism. That said, scores of people have told me that I played a part in their deconversion. I don’t preach at people. I don’t comment on Christian websites. Seventeen years ago, I started blogging. My goal then is the same today: to honestly and openly share my story, answer questions people might have about Evangelical Christianity, and to help and encourage people who have deconverted.
If this blog is based on bad logic and delusion, I suggest Edgeworth either deconstruct my story and posts on his website or start a blog to do the same. He makes all sorts of claims about me, yet provides no evidence to support his contentions.
I wish you well. If you were ever IN the body of Christ, you can never be OUT of the body of Christ, that much is sure. You will be in HEAVEN someday, but think of all those who may not be because of your DELUSION, and anger, which should be directed mostly at yourself, not God.
Answered, answered, answered.
If there is a God, according to the IFB gospel, I will go to Heaven when I die. Awesome, right? Thousands of people who read this blog will someday be in Heaven, too. What a party we will have; millions of Atheist Christians praising logic, reason, skepticism, and common sense for their glorious deliverance from the bondage of Evangelical Christianity, complete with rock music, Holy Ghost marijuana, and a free grace bar. And what will Jesus do? He will probably join us. 🙂
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
I was intimate with my lover for many, many years.
My wife and children know about the affair. I am so sorry for all the hurt and damage my illicit relationship caused. That my wife and children stood by me all these years is a wonderful testimony to their love for me. I don’t deserve it.
My mistress and I carried on for a long, long time. She would follow me wherever I moved: Ohio, Texas, Michigan. She was always right there for me.
My mistress is a lot older than I am. She is what is commonly called a cougar.
The sex was great. The only problem was I could never satisfy her. The more sex we had, the more she wanted. She was quite the nymphomaniac. I had a suspicion she was having sex with other people (she was bisexual) but it didn’t matter. What WE had was special. She treated me as if I was the ONLY one.
Over the years, we made a lot of promises to each other. We are going to do this or that, go here or go there. But neither I nor my mistress delivered on our promises.
I gave my mistress a lot of money. She deserved it, or so I thought. Yet, no matter how much money I gave her, she always wanted more. She would often tell me “Prove that you love me, Bruce.” So I would give her more money. I began to wonder if she was a prostitute and I was a john. My wife and children suffered because I gave so much money to her. I justified their destitution by telling myself that my affair was what gave me purpose and meaning in life. Without it, I might as well be dead.
I deceived myself for a long time, convinced that what my mistress and I had was real. After all, she made me feel alive. She gave me self-worth. When we were together it seemed as if time stopped and we were transported into the heavens.
One day, I began to have doubts about my affair. The sex was great, but there is more to life than sex. I certainly enjoyed the company of my mistress, and boy, she sure could cook, but I still felt quite empty when I was away from her.
I began to think about all the sacrifices I made for my mistress: all the money I gave her; the loss of a close, intimate relationship with my wife and children. Was it worth it? Since my mistress got the best of me, all my family got was leftovers. By the time I came home to them, I was too tired, too busy, and too broke to give them what they needed and deserved.
A decade or so ago, after much self-judgment and reflection, I ended the affair. I sold all of the mementos of our torrid relationship. I told my mistress that I could no longer be in a relationship with her. She didn’t even get angry, or for that matter, even care. She told me “There are plenty of other people who would love to have me in their lives. Your loss, Bruce.”
So we parted ways,
My wife and I, along with our children, are trying to rebuild our family. The damage done by this affair is incalculable. I can only hope that, with time, the wounds will be healed.
I should warn all of you about my mistress. She is always on the prowl looking for someone new to entice and bed.
Her name?
The Church.
By the way, I thought the above quoted post was some of my finest writing. Others certainly think so.
What follows is my response to his latest email.
Edgeworth replied:
I read it all the way through before, but somehow “her name” and “the Church” with spaces in between didn’t sink in. He had sex with the Church? The sex was great with the Church? Really? A bit misleading don’t you think?
He gave his mistress a lot of money, but complains he never got paid much money from the small churches he pastored, if he got paid at all?
The Church isn’t a building. If Bruce was saved he is part of that church, the body of Christ, that He bled and died for. He can never become not a part of that church. He may choose to not serve Christ but can never not be a part of the church. That relationship is everlasting.
How exactly in his mind did he have sex with “the Church”?
If Bruce neglected his family, that is on him. I have lovingly served my Lord and Savior for over 50 years, but always tried to give my family the attention they needed. But I guess it is easier for Bruce to just blame God for him neglecting his family. Maybe it eases his conscience somehow.
Neglect of his relationship with Christ is far worse.
Evidently, Edgeworth has a hard time recognizing satire — sadly, a common problem with Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) Christians. Their wooden, literalistic way of thinking keeps them from understanding satire (or jokes). Life is too short to go without satire and humor.
I gave a lot of money to the churches I pastored, even when they couldn’t or wouldn’t pay me a living wage, with benefits. (I often worked a full-time secular job while also working at the church full-time.) I pastored churches that ranged in attendance from the 50s to more than 200. Some congregations were dirt poor and couldn’t pay me a living wage. The church I pastored in southeast Ohio grew to over 200 hundred people, yet only exceeded $40,000 income one time. Most years, the church took in less than $30,000. They paid me what they could, and because I put ministry and calling before my pocketbook, I never concerned myself with what I made. In retrospect, I should have. My family suffered because I put Jesus/Church/Christian school/preaching/soulwinning first.
I take full responsibility for the choices I made in the ministry. If I had it to do it all over again, I would do it differently. That said, several of the churches I pastored could have paid me more, but they were content to give me two chickens and a $20 bill. The most I made was $26,000 a year, with the church of 200 members providing a mobile home for my family and me to live in. No insurance, no retirement plan, no benefits. The church could have easily paid me three times what they did but chose not to. Do I blame God? Of course not. The blame rests squarely with the church.
It’s good to know, according to Edgeworth’s profane theology, that I am still a Christian. Once saved, always saved, right? I’m so glad Edgeworth told me the “church is not a building.” OMG! If only I had known that. Sigh. (Why I Use the Word “Sigh.”) According to Edgeworth, I am in a marriage that I can’t get out of, even though my spouse abused and ignored me. No divorce, even if I no longer believe in the existence of the God of the Bible. No divorce, even if I mock, make fun of, and blaspheme God. No divorce, even if I deny that Jesus is the son of God, or that he was born of a virgin, worked countless miracles, died on a Roman cross, resurrected from the dead 48-72 hours later, and later ascended to Heaven, never to be seen again. Any reasonable, logical person would conclude that I am not a Christian. But, Edgeworth’s peculiar theology gets in the way of him exercising rational thinking and common sense.
I don’t blame God for anything. How could I, since he doesn’t exist? The same goes for blaming Satan — another mythical being. I am a big proponent of personal responsibility. Just ask my children and grandchildren. “Grandpa, I can’t find my shoes (wanting me to find them).” They know I will say, “Who had them last?” Personal responsibility training starts young. To the degree that I am culpable, I accept full responsibility. However, I refuse to let churches and individual Christians off the hook for their shitty, unchristian behavior. When people complain about how I have portrayed them in my writing, I tell them, “You should have treated me better.” 🙂 Want to be well thought of? Act accordingly.
I never had “literal” sex with God. Get it in your head, Arv, it’s satire. Now, if you want to know if I ever made love to my partner anywhere on church property — wink, wink, I ain’t telling 🙂 Oh, those were the days!
Edgeworth ended his email with yet another threat of Hell. I wonder if he really thinks this puts the “fear of God” in me. I assure him that I do not fear a nonexistent deity. I am generally not fearful of anything. Well, outside of my wife. She wields a pretty mean Lodge cast-iron skillet. If Polly starts watching The Burning Bed on repeat, then I might fear her. 🙂 If anyone could cause me to fear, it is Evangelical Christians; so-called worshippers of the Prince of Peace who have threatened me with violence — including murder. These so-called Christ followers have also threatened my partner, our six adult children, and our sixteen grandchildren. They have tracked them down on the Internet and sent them hateful, nasty emails.
To Arv I say, if you plan to respond, stop psychoanalyzing me. You aren’t qualified to do so, and I regularly see a therapist who is more than capable of helping me with my mental health.
Do better, Arv, do better. If you want to have a thoughtful conversation with me, I’m game. If your plan is more of the same, don’t bother.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
“Dr.” Arv Edgeworth recently sent me the following comment:
Hi Bruce,
I am interested. Would you be willing to share with me why you left Christianity, and now consider yourself an atheist? I promise not to be judgmental. I honestly would like to see things from your perspective. My wife and I live in Southwest Ohio, and next week will be celebrating our 60th anniversary. I wish you well.
I am an evangelist. In the last 14 years I have spoken in over 300 independent, fundamental Baptist churches in 25 different states. I have spent a great deal of time discussing doctrinal issues with those pastors. I have also discussed standards of dress and conduct with them. I send out a newsletter to about 2100 independent, fundamental, Baptist churches nation-wide.
Edgeworth operates the Truth and Science website — a site devoted to young earth creationism and debunking evolution.
Many years ago, Dr. Arv Edgeworth was asked to head up a Six-Step Problem Solving team for the General Motors Corporation. As part of his training he was taught in the proper use of the Scientific Method. His team had a 100% success rate. His love of science grew. He then began collecting science textbooks, collecting over 150 of them. He also collected, about 80 other books about science. He began to be very burdened over the Creation vs Evolution issue. In January of 1997, God called him into Creation Evangelism.
Dr. Edgeworth has given over 450 seminars on the Creation vs Evolution issue in churches and schools in 27 different states. He now sends newsletters to thousands of scientists, science teachers, pastors, churches, and many others.
In his first email to me, Edgeworth asks me why I left Christianity and why I consider myself an atheist. I find such questions annoying. Even a superficial perusal of this site would direct a person to the page WHY? On this page are numerous articles answering Edgeworth’s questions. Alas, many Evangelicals lack curiosity, as I make clear in a post titled Curiosity, A Missing Evangelical Trait.
Edgeworth promised not to be judgmental if I responded to his email, but as you will see below, he failed to keep his word.
I did not respond to Edgeworth; my editor, Carolyn, did. Carolyn has been my editor for years. When I am not feeling well — and currently in a tough spot physically — Carolyn will answer some of my emails, especially those that can be answered without theological or philosophical responses. Edgeworth asked a question, to which Carolyn, my Internet wife, replied:
Mr. Edgeworth,
I am Bruce’s editor and sometimes-answerer of his emails. Please read all the links on the Why page on Bruce’s blog, The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser, and you will have an understanding of why and how he left Christianity. The short answer is that after he retired, he began to examine all of the tenets of Christianity and how they didn’t fit together and how they contradicted one another, and he reached the point where he no longer believes in the basics of Christianity — the virgin birth, the miracles Jesus supposedly performed, his alleged resurrection, heaven, hell, angels, satan, etc. The more he examined, the more he realized he didn’t believe. He cannot worship a god who would have a hell and a lake of fire where a god tortures certain people for eternity after our relatively short stay on earth.
Carolyn Patrick, editor for Bruce Gerencser
Excellent response. Short and to the point, directing Edgeworth to where he could find fuller explanations for why I converted.
Of course, Edgeworth couldn’t be bothered to do his homework — yet he wants everyone on this site to read his website. He shows no awareness of my background or that I was a college-trained IFB/Evangelical pastor for twenty-five years. There’s nothing in my story that remotely suggests I was a liberal Christian; that I had head knowledge, but had never been born again. Both of these claims are patently false.
The “non-judgmental” Edgeworth is, in fact, judgmental, consigning me to Hell because I don’t believe as he does. He predicts (and knows for sure) that I am headed for Hell and assumes the same about Carolyn.
Here’s what he said:
Hi Carolyn,
Thank you for your reply concerning why Bruce left “Christianity” and became an atheist. The things you told me about Bruce seem to indicate clearly that Bruce may have had a head knowledge about God, and considered himself to be a “Christian,” but has never experienced the new birth. That often happens if someone is in a liberal denomination that does not preach and teach the true gospel. They are “Christians” in name only.
I can predict one thing for sure. Bruce will believe in God, and heaven and hell in the future: one moment after he dies. It is a terrible thing for Bruce that he never experienced true Christianity. How about you Carolyn? Would you like to be 100% sure about your eternity? You can be. You owe it to yourself and to Bruce to at least check it out. I hope you and Bruce have a great eternity. Eternity is a long time to be wrong! Please check this out for yourself. You will be eternally grateful that you did!
Are you telling me that you relied only on my writing to make the decision that Bruce had “head knowledge” but didn’t experience a “new birth”? Are you telling me that you didn’t read the links on the Why page of Bruce’s blog? If so, SHAME ON YOU! Don’t take my word for it, read Bruce’s own words, his own writing. I am fully convinced that Bruce was born again when he was 15 and had a personal relationship with Jesus for more than 25 years. Bruce was not in a liberal denomination but was the pastor of several Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) churches. He preached and taught the true gospel. He would have been a Trump supporter in his Christian days.
I am an agnostic atheist. I have no belief in any god or gods – not yours, not the Catholic god, not the Pentecostal god, not the Episcopalian god, not the Baptist god, not the Methodist god, not the Mormon god . . . . Need I go on? I have no belief in any god. If scientifically valid evidence were presented to me by a god, I might (or might not) believe in her, but as things stand now, I have seen no evidence for the existence of any god, and I therefore have no belief in any god. I am 100% sure about my eternity, and yours too. Yours will be the same as mine and Bruce’s.
Carolyn Patrick, editor for Bruce Gerencser
Edgeworth replied (relevant parts quoted):
Hi Carolyn,
I have finished reading most of the “Why” section on Bruce’s blog. I did skim through a few things, just focusing on the most important. I then compared them with the things you said about yourself. I hope you won’t mind if I try to put a few things into perspective.
…
Your Beliefs and Bruce’s
Bruce refers to himself as an atheist. You refer to yourself as an agnostic atheist. All of this is based on what you choose to believe. The same can be said for the evolutionist. What I don’t see in any of this is a sincere desire to know the TRUTH. Where does REALITY fit into any of this? What about the REALITY of what actually happened in the past, is happening now, or will happen in the future? Does that matter to you?
I have a PASSION for TRUTH! Judging from what you have said: It doesn’t appear that either you or Bruce have any desire to actually KNOW what the TRUTH is. The word “science” means “to know.” It doesn’t mean “to believe.” You and Bruce have every right to choose to believe what you want to. But what about the TRUTH about what actually IS?
The existence of God is based in the REALITY of what actually is. What anyone chooses to believe or not believe has no bearing on the REALITY of what actually is. That is why the Supreme Court ruled that Atheism is a religion. At least they got that one right. Just my personal belief.
For example: You say that my eternity will be the same as both yours and Bruce’s. That isn’t something that you know or can be known is it? You may choose to BELIEVE that, but it will have no effect on the REALITY of what actually IS.
Evolution Can Be Easily Disproven!
I could give you the scientific evidence to prove that. The real facts though seldom result in people changing their mind about what they have chosen to believe. God exists, but He will only prove that to you if you are honestly seeking the TRUTH.
We all fit into one of two categories:
(1) An honest seeker of TRUTH.
(2) A protector of a BELIEF SYSTEM.
What you choose to believe, has no effect on the REALITY of what actually IS. I wish nothing but the best for both of you. The TRUTH really will set you free.
In Search of the TRUTH,
Dr. Arv Edgeworth
Several hours later, Edgeworth wrote:
Hi Carolyn,
I was curious how you could feel so confident Bruce at one time was a born-again Christian unless you had perhaps experienced the same thing yourself. Do you have a story to tell?
Using Bruce’s logic though, if I were to observe a smashed Chevrolet, I would contact General Motors and tell them I could no longer believe in them as a great company because they build automobiles that people can smash. In fact, I am beginning to believe that they no longer exist, or perhaps never did. Same logic?
Also, for a fundamental Baptist preacher to pastor several churches while at the same time, having a mistress on the side, and the probable guilt and shame that he carried with him, but claim that had nothing to do with where he is at today, might lead someone to think he is delusional, at least to himself. But I do not judge him for that, we all fail at times.
By the way, do you know why God gave us the 10 Commandments? To prove to us that we couldn’t keep them, and needed a Savior to die in our place.
But having said all I have, I can guarantee, based on the infallible Word of God, that God still loves both of you, and desires nothing but the very best for your lives. That will never change, because God never changes. He may choose to operate differently at times, but He is unchangeable. He is a God you can trust, no matter how certain experiences may lead you to believe otherwise.
God could have built a bunch of robots that would always do right, but in accordance with His love, justice, mercy, and wisdom, He choose to form the Earth to be inhabited by fallible humans such as you and I.
As the loving father welcomed the prodigal son with open arms, God will do the same for you.
In Christian Love,
Certainty — a foundational belief for IFB Christians — breeds arrogance, and Edgeworth is certainly that. Without getting into a long debate, let me answer several of Edgeworth’s claims.
About my “chosen” beliefs. It is debated whether any of us chooses to believe. For the sake of argument, I will accept Edgeworth’s claim that I chose to be an atheist. I chose to be an atheist based on my careful, painful re-examination of the central claims of Christianity. This was me seeking TRUTH. Edgeworth seems unaware that I am a college-trained pastor, spent twenty-five years in the ministry, preached over 4,000 sermons, and spent over 20,000 hours reading and studying the Bible. It is disingenuous for Edgeworth to claim that I was not a sincere seeker of truth. You are fucking kidding me, right? I have spent more time and effort in understanding the teachings of the Bible than most Christians, including preachers. What, exactly, does Edgeworth think I “missed?” He has no evidence for his claims about my life. He asked for no clarifications and made little to no effort to understand my story. To Edgeworth, I say, the triune God of the Bible said: Answering before listening is both stupid and rude. (Proverbs 18:13) Do better, Edgeworth, do better. I am not your typical atheist. I am not ignorant about Christian theology or church history. I am conversant in all things Christian.
I am baffled as to why Edgeworth brings up evolution. What I believe about the beginning of the universe and how best to explain the natural world has nothing to do with atheism. Atheism is a singular claim about the lack of existence of deities. That’s it. I know several Christians who accept evolution as a scientific fact. Thus, one can believe the core doctrines of Christianity and evolution at the same time. To suggest otherwise means that salvation is by “right belief” and not faith.
I am a sincere seeker of truth. Edgeworth can’t accept this fact, of course, because it doesn’t comport with his peculiar claims. That my proverbial peg doesn’t fit in his hole is his problem, not mine. If Edgeworth wants to challenge my beliefs, I’m game. I am, however, not interested in discussions with people who do not respect me enough to accept my story at face value. Edgeworth says he’s a Christian. As a man who respects others, I accept his story at face value. It would be nice if Edgeworth would do the same. I know, I know, Edgeworth is an IFB preacher. Scores of Edgeworths have emailed me and commented on this site. I have generally found IFB preachers to be “Assholes for Jesus.”
In his last email, Edgeworth questioned whether I was a real Christian since I admitted to having an affair! This ludicrous and false statement suggests that Edgeworth did not carefully read the posts on the WHY? page. Had he done so, he would have learned that the post It’s Time to Tell the Truth: I Had an Affair is satirical.
Edgeworth mentions the Ten Commandments and the infallibility of the Bible, as well as arrogantly saying, based on evidence he does not have, nor can he possibly have, “I can guarantee, based on the infallible Word of God, that God still loves both of you, and desires nothing but the very best for your lives.”
How could Edgeworth possibly know that God still loves me and desires nothing but the best for my life? Does he know the mind of God? How does he know I’m not a reprobate or an apostate? I can definitively prove that I am both — gladly so. And as far as the Protestant Bible being (inerrant) and infallible, give me a break. That claim carries no weight and can easily be disproven. Edgeworth is King James Only. I assume he believes the KJV is infallible too, and not just the original manuscripts — which are not extant.
To Edgeworth, I say, if you want to talk about the law of God or the inerrancy/infallibility of the Bible, I’m game. As far as evolution is concerned, I am not a scientist. I have no relevant expertise regarding evolution. Others on this site do, some of whom are trained scientists, so if they want to engage you on matters of science, I am sure they will respond.
Wade in if you dare, Arv, but please know that this site is not a den of “ignorant” atheists or people who, as your friend said, “reject the authority of God in their lives.” For me personally, I think you will find that I can adequately and competently discuss Christian theology with you — especially in its Evangelical and IFB varieties.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
A friend and I are both deconverted Christian fundamentalists. We both wonder what we might do in the situation I’ll describe below. I’d love for the wonderful commentariat here, or our leader, Bruce Almighty, to give us some very clever — or witty — responses to this.
We live in a town that has the longest High Street in Wales. Like most High Streets, the main shopping streets in UK towns, it’s a sea of closed up shops these days. This one has only 30% of its shops still open. The city fathers have appointed a ‘czar’ to revitalise it. The local newspaper reported this and asked shop-owners how they are faring. They replied — badly. It’s unusual for anything Evangelical to be reported on in the UK. Still, prominence was given to the owner of the ‘Heavens Above’ Cafe on the High Street, whose picture had him smugly sporting a sweater with John14:6 on it. He claimed they were thriving and said, “We hold a monthly healing service and lots are healed.”
I commented that if this is so, why didn’t he and his fellow god-botherers travel two miles to our local large hospital and empty it and send patients to their cafe instead. Just think how wonderful our country would be if it didn’t have to finance the National Health Service (NHS). Patients could go along to ‘Heavens Above’ and, for the price of a sandwich and a coffee, get healed. My comment was up for about two hours, then it was deleted as ‘not adhering to community guidelines. ‘ So, apparently, lying-through-your-teeth for Jesus does adhere to them.
My friend has waited six months already for a major operation under our very overstretched NHS. She would love to go into ‘Heavens Above’ to challenge this arrogant assertion, but she can’t bring herself to give them any custom by even buying one coffee. But we’d both love to just go along and challenge their claim to miracles of healing and for them to explain to us why they aren’t down at that hospital.
Any witty repartee, any snarky put-downs, or irrefutable arguments that we could use would be most welcome. We’re open to suggestions from all you clever people! Help us out here!
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Paige Bueckers credits God for the UConn women’s basketball team’s win over South Carolina in the national title game:
If I could say one thing, it would be to stand firm in who you are. There’s a lot of people who write you off, there’s a lot of narratives that could be trying to put you in a box, tell you ‘you got to do this,’ ‘you got to do that,’ ‘you got to more like this player,’ ‘you got to be more like that player.’
There’s people that doubt you because they think you’re doing it on your strength alone. We lean on God’s strength here. We’re for God’s power, for God’s purposes. We’re not doing this alone, and we have the village that we lean on.
This sort of thinking is common among college and professional athletes. Athletes raised in religious cultures that teach them that “without Jesus you can do nothing” typically give God/Jesus credit for their physical abilities and wins. I usually ignore such religious utterances, seeing them as the product of indoctrination and conditioning. Bueckers is an outstanding player because of two things: genetics (natural ability) and hard work. God has nothing to do with it.
If God was behind UConn’s win, that means he willed South Carolina’s loss. The latter naturally follows from the former. The same goes for Christians who credit God for healing them. Such statements imply that God is in control of everything. If God heals, it necessarily follows that God chooses NOT to heal.
Claims of God helping teams win ballgames trivialize Christianity; that God is more interested in the outcome of a basketball game than he is the suffering all around us. Woo! Hoo! Our team won! Praise Jesus! And what about the thousands of children who will die today from malnutrition, starvation, war, and disease? God says, “They should have played basketball for UConn.”
I’m sure Bueckers meant well, and that her pronouncements reflect her religious upbringing. However, I see no evidence for the claim that God helped UConn win their latest title.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
China (and Japan) can bankrupt the U.S. Government in short order by dumping the U.S. treasury bonds they own. These bonds help fund deficit government spending.
I’m convinced Donald Trump is a modern-day mad king. (Mad King” typically refers to a ruler, like King George III of England or King Aerys II Targaryen from A Song of Ice and Fire, who is known for periods of mental instability or erratic and often cruel behavior.)
Trump wants to show the world how mighty he is by having a massive military parade in Washington, D.C. on his birthday. Historically, it is authoritarian world leaders who hold military parades — Russia and North Korea come to mind.
Most Republican legislators aren’t interested in cutting the federal budget deficit. Trump raised the deficit during his first term, and he’s on course to raise it to record levels this term.
I am double-minded when it comes to the federal budget deficit. A balanced budget seems like a good idea, but in practice, it leads to pain and suffering for middle-class, working-class, and poor people. Millions of families live from paycheck to paycheck. Budget cuts necessary to balance the budget will bankrupt scores of Americans (and impossible if Congress is unwilling to make massive cuts to defense and security funding).
Ohio’s Republican legislators and Governor Mike DeWine have made it clear that they are anti-public education. Billions of dollars meant for public school budgets were cut from the latest two year budget, with some of this money going to pay for students to attend primarily religious schools.
Get ready for a marked uptick in farm bankruptcies. Trump’s tariffs, especially on China, will cause horrific harm to American families. In 2018, Trump’s tariffs harmed American farms. The President saved his ass by giving farmers billions in welfare payments. Most farmers vote Republican. I wonder if they are tired of all the “winning.”
Trump signed an executive order designed to bring back “beautiful” coal mining. The President couldn’t care less about the environment. He has rolled back countless environmental laws. His goal is to return the United States to the good old days of the 1950s (or the late 1920s) of rampant air, water, and land pollution.)
Trump sees himself as the greatest president ever. The President thinks his face should be carved on Mount Rushmore. History will show that he is one of the worst presidents, right down there with Herbert Hoover.
Chris Hayes said of Trump today, “You set the house on fire, watched it burn, and then lost your nerve and put it out. You now have a partially burned house. Great job.” Yep.
Bonus — It is clear the Trump and his administration don’t give a shit about working class/poor people. From cutting food stamps and Section 8 funding to the Home Energy Assistance Program (HEAP), the message is clear: if you aren’t rich, you don’t matter.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
The Black Collar Crime Series focuses on criminal misconduct—primarily sex crimes—by clergy members. Started in 2017, the series has more than 1,000 stories as of today.
Today, a reader sent me the following email:
I have some questions for you. When you submit story of someone being arrested and having charges against them, do you believe it is your responsibility to later report if the charges were proven and what the sentence is or if the charges were dropped. Do you believe in innocent until proven guilty or do you feel charges are enough for guilt to shame someone whether or not the court finds them guilty? I’m very curious on your thoughts about that.
Here’s my response:
When you submit story of someone being arrested and having charges against them, do you believe it is your responsibility to later report if the charges were proven and what the sentence is or if the charges were dropped?
Charges are rarely dropped. When they are, they are typically dropped because victims refuse to testify. This does not mean the perpetrator is innocent. All it does mean is that victims do not want to relive the horrors of the crimes perpetrated against them. Often, papers do not report what happens after a clergy member is arrested. I use Google Alerts to track these cases. I receive 100-250 alerts per day, many of which are duplicates or fake news.
I should note that just because a clergy person is found not guilty does not mean he or she is innocent. All it means is that the judge (in a bench trial) or a jury found the evidence insufficient to convict the perpetrator.
Yes, clerics are, on rare occasions, accused of crimes they did not do. Our legal system generally does a good job of separating guilt from innocence. Not perfect, but it is the best system we have. Keep in mind, far more acts of sexual misconduct go unreported than are prosecuted. Clerics often wield a lot of power and control. Victims know this. Fearing retribution, they often suffer in silence. That’s why some victims wait until they are adults to report their attacks and assaults.
Do you believe in innocent until proven guilty or do you feel charges are enough for guilt to shame someone whether or not the court finds them guilty?
Of course I believe in innocent until proven guilty. Every Black Collar Crime post starts with this disclaimer:
The Black Collar Crime Series relies on public news stories and publicly available information for its content. If any incorrect information is found, please contact Bruce Gerencser. Nothing in this post should be construed as an accusation of guilt. Those accused of crimes are innocent until proven guilty.
I only know of a handful of preachers who were found not guilty. Many of them plead guilty, angling for reduced sentences. Since most of these crimes are sex related, prosecutors tend to take their time building a case against the alleged perpetrator. On occasion, prosecutors make mistakes. Our legal system is not infallible.
I rarely make personal comments about Black Collar Crime stories. I just report what credible newspapers and other institutions write. If I make a mistake, I promptly fix it. If someone is found innocent, if the alleged perpetrator asks, I will remove the story or add an addendum that shows they were found not guilty. The perpetrator must show proof of the not-guilty verdict.
On occasion, lying preachers (and their supporters) will contact me, saying they are innocent or their charges have been dismissed. Not wanting anyone to be wrongly accused, I ask for evidence for their claim — news stories or court orders. More often than not, no evidence is forthcoming. Why? The offending preacher is a liar. hoping that I will remove the story about him so it will no longer show in search results.
It is impossible for me to keep up with the disposition of every case. If the disposition shows up in a Google Alert, I will update the relevant post. On occasion, readers such as Brocken will track down what happened to a specific preacher, and I update the post. The goal is to always report the most accurate information possible.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Sadly, many people think Evangelical churches and preachers are pillars of virtue — places and people who can be trusted to care for children. These people are typically unaware of the fact that the goal of Evangelicals is to evangelize children, using aggressive techniques, manipulation, indoctrination, and conditioning. Parents might think that these kind, thoughtful, loving Christians just want to be nice, but little do they know that their unsaved children are viewed as enemies of God and children of Satan. Little do they know that their “lost” children will be threatened with judgment and Hell if they don’t get saved.
Church children are encouraged to invite their schoolmates, promising them fun, food, and fellowship. Most kids want to hang with their friends, so they say yes to attending church with their Evangelical classmates. As promised, churches dish out sumptuous helpings of food, fun, and fellowship. What churches are less inclined to make known is that children will also be exposed to adults trying to convert them. Fear and guilt are often used to coerce children into asking Jesus to save them. Once “saved,” the child typically becomes a member of the church. Often, children are baptized after getting saved. Sometimes, these baptisms take place without parental permission.
Recently, a Catholic grandchild of mine went to an Evangelical church for fun, food, and fellowship. This church (Compassion Church in Toledo, Ohio) is charismatic, so high emotional states are common. Can you imagine what happened next? My grandchild — who is in middle school — came home all excited about getting “saved.” Needless to say, Grandpa Bruce was pissed. If she had been older and had carefully examined the claims made by this church before getting saved, I would understand (while still being disappointed). However, this is not what happened. She was surrounded by friends and subjected to a high-emotion service/preaching/music and manipulation. It is not surprising she got “saved.” I hope that her salvation is temporary, and, in time, she will mature in her understanding of religion. I am not anti-religion. I am, however, adamantly opposed to religious coercion and manipulation.
Have you had a child or grandchild go to church and come home “saved?” Please share your experiences in the comment section.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
This is the latest installment in the Songs of Sacrilege series, which I would like readers to help me with. If you know of a song that is irreverent toward religion, makes fun of religion, pokes fun at sincerely held religious beliefs, or challenges the firmly held religious beliefs of others, please send me an email.
Today’s Song of Sacrilege is Your God (God’s Dick) by Laura Jane Grace.
[Intro] Does your god have a big fat dick? Cause it feels like he’s fucking me Are his balls filled with lightning? Do they dangle like heaven’s keys? Does your god have a big fat dick? Cause it feels like he’s fucking me
[Chorus] Does your god have a big fat dick? Cause it feels like he’s fucking me Are his balls filled with lightning? Do they dangle like heaven’s keys? Does your god have a big fat dick? Cause it feels like he’s fucking me
[Verse 1] Does his D go deep So deep it puts an ass to sleep? Who’s the 6 to his 9 And what are his other kinks? If he grows all the trees Does he taste every peach? Is your god fucking you and fucking me? I know creation must get lonely After all he’s one and only And his son was so well hung I think the big man deserves one
[Chorus] Does your god have a big fat dick? Cause it feels like he’s fucking me Are his balls filled with lightning? Do they dangle like heaven’s keys? Does your god have a big fat dick? Cause it feels like he’s fucking me
[Verse 2] When he whips out his meat Does your world fall to its knees? Does he shoot wads of honey And cum twice on Easter Sunday? What’s his favourite position? Missionary? Magic bullet? We all give him no lover Just a hand and a mother Can he cum a shotgun blast And shoot salvation up your ass? Does he chew cunt like bubblegum And give blowjobs like a vacuum?
[Chorus] Does your god have a big fat dick? Cause it feels like he’s fucking me Are his balls filled with lightning? Do they dangle like heavens keys? Does your god have a big fat dick? Cause it feels like he’s fucking me Does your god have a big fat dick? CAUSE HE’S FUCKING YOU AND ME!
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
