Bruce, Your Life is a Lie

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peanut gallery — Email From the Peanut Gallery

According to an email I received several years ago, my present life is NOT how I present it within the pages of this blog. A Christian man by the name Nathan Smith says I am lying when I say I am happy. He also says my life is absent of compassion, freedom, and happiness, despite me saying differently. Smith challenges my manhood, saying that if I truly was a brave man I would ask a cognitive behaviorist to render their opinion on my written work. You mean the secular psychologist I see every week, the woman who reads my writing and encourages me to keep telling my story?

Smith writes:

Reading your blog doesn’t give any impression that the humanistic life is full of the kind of compassion, freedom, and happiness you say it is. If Christians serve something man-made, then they are simply doing what comes naturally to them as humans; something any true humanist would be able to understand with a lot more compassion than you seem able to demonstrate. If you were free, you would not feel compelled to continue in your devotion to Christ and His Church; albeit in hostility. Moreover, if you were happy, you would not view everything through the lens of this hostility. If humanism were true of Bruce Gerenscer [sic], the battle would have ended when he left the Church, yet here he is still playing the part with fervor.
You will be glad to hear that your new life’s work is questionable without even invoking God or scripture. If you are brave enough, let a cognitive behaviorist evaluate this blog and compare it with your stated reasons for writing it; that way you can hear from the kind of secular, educated, scientific individual you now esteem that you are completely full of it.

I will leave it to you the reader to decide if Smith’s observations ring true.

Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.

Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.

You can email Bruce via the Contact Form.

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Comments

75 responses to “Bruce, Your Life is a Lie”

April 9, 2017

Ami

Dafuq?

“If you are brave enough, let a cognitive behaviorist evaluate this blog and compare it with your stated reasons for writing it; that way you can hear from the kind of secular, educated, scientific individual you now esteem that you are completely full of it.”

I’m not sure what this guy is trying to say, but ‘full of it’ seems to fit him.
I’d suggest that he read his words aloud to see if they make sense before hitting send or post comment.

Reply
1. April 9, 2017
  
  Bruce Gerencser
  
  Here’s how I interpret his word salad. Since I now put my faith in science/secularism, I should ask a therapist about what I write about on this blog. They will tell me that I am full of shit when it comes to my claims of happiness.
  
  Of course, I do see a therapist and have been doing so for over five years. The man I see is secular psychologist with 30 plus years of experience. He not only reads my writing, he encourages me to keep writing.
  
  Reply
  1. April 9, 2017
    
    Lara
    
    As someone who has regular work interaction with psychiatry, and Neuro psychiatry, A cognitive behavioral is a professional that does therapy using CBT, which looks at thought distortions, black and white thinking, and would not really read a blog, as I have never asked one to read my writing. I do not know a professional, regardless of religion or not that would read this “cold.” As you point out , you do show this to trusted people in the field. This is really telling about this person’s own mental health. As a person in the process of mental health recovery, I find it interesting that he may well be transferring his own concerns about himself, and ascribing it to you. I am sorry for his own pain, but does it really need to channel to you? That’s shitty. Your dance card is full, no need to talk, buh by. I think your assessment is spot on, as you have worked with people decades more than I, as a therapist (pastor) who was woefully under paid and reaching out in kindness to support the “flock.” You deserve credit for that.
    
    Reply
    1. April 9, 2017
      
      Bruce Gerencser
      
      Thanks, Lara.
      
      Reply
April 9, 2017

Byron Smith

I am sorry that we share the same last name. My best guess? He read something he did not like and could not adequately refute within his own mind. Or, an even worse case scenario, he truly is as ignorant as he sounds. I need more information to tell (or hazard a guess, to be honest), though I am no expert on such things, and do not particularly wish for a larger dataset from which to evaluate.

However, I completely get the mistaken assumption that people who leave Christianity do so because Christianity is perfect and they are hopelessly flawed in contrast (though what I do not get is why the holders of this assumption believe that non-Christians could possibly agree with that assessment or worse, secretly do but are somehow dishonest about their true beliefs and feelings—then again, maybe I do, because those mental gymnastics are apparently less dreadful than trying to compute Christianity being or at least having any falsehood for the true believer).

Sorry, rambling mode deactivated. Transmission complete. EOF.

Reply
1. April 9, 2017
  
  Bruce Gerencser
  
  Nice to see your comment, Bryan. I did email him a link to this post. Maybe he will expand on his observations about my life.
  
  Reply
  1. April 9, 2017
    
    Byron Smith
    
    I’m sure if he does it’s going to be a Job 33:32-33 event in his own mind at least (well, maybe not the v32 part, but definitely the v33 part):
    
    Job 33
    32 If thou hast anything to say, answer me: speak, for I desire to justify thee.
    33 If not, hearken unto me: hold thy peace, and I shall teach thee wisdom.
    
    Bruce, reading your blog, it’s obvious you don’t know squat, can’t communicate, and are barely rational. If only you could write an intelligent defense of your beliefs and criticism of certain religious beliefs you left behind, then surely your naysayers would be forced into silence. Yeah, that’s gotta be it! 😀
    
    (I don’t comment much, but some of these drive-by Solomons and Elihus are worth a chuckle or two… )
    
    Reply
    1. April 9, 2017
      
      Bruce Gerencser
      
      Perhaps if I go see the newest, latest, greatest Christian movie, the one about Lee Strobel, why the light will go on and I will see the error of my way.
      
      Or not. ?
      
      Reply
      1. April 9, 2017
        
        Sarah
        
        I read the book it reeks of illogical arguments. The book was a torture to read, I pity the person who watches it. When I was really into Christianity it made me feel sad that no one could come up with better apologetics than that.
April 9, 2017

Becky Wiren

Mr Nathan Smith: obviously you read a couple posts and decided to judge Bruce. Well, funnily enough, the person who comes off being full of shit…is you.

Reply
1. April 9, 2017
  
  Bruce Gerencser
  
  I believe he viewed 7 posts. Can’t say if he read them. Total time on the site was about 45 minutes.
  
  Reply
  1. April 9, 2017
    
    Becky Wiren
    
    LOL. I started reading your posts around 5 years ago, and have invested quite a bit of time there. And I started out believing I was still a Christian (I wasn’t but was using the form of the religion for my beliefs). So I don’t even know how many posts. Let’s see…rough estimate. 365 x 5 equals 1825. Now, I know there were periods you stopped, but then when you blog you usually do more than one post. So I feel confident that I have read at least 1000 of your posts. And I heartily disagree with this douche. (Bad words because I feel like he deserves it. He, of course if he answers, will whine about how mean we are.)
    
    Reply
    1. April 9, 2017
      
      Bruce Gerencser
      
      His argument will likely be that I have attracted likeminded people. Addicts attract addicts, right? ?
      
      Reply
      1. April 9, 2017
        
        Sarah
        
        I think the author of the email was the addict.
    2. April 10, 2017
      
      Melody
      
      I started reading when I was still a Christian too, albeit a disgruntled one.
      
      Back then I sometimes thought Bruce said things a little harshly sometimes, but I mostly felt that way because I also knew it was true. I hated that it was true, but I still had to concede that it was. It felt hurtful because it was true; which often happens. The truth can be harsh sometimes.
      
      I kept coming back though, because I also related so much to this anger and discontent with Evangelical restraints, and Bruce adressed that, whereas others (Christians) did not. I also went to the blogs of Progressive Christians – some of whom were former fundies – and I recognized their stories too to some extent. Only they tried to change God into this cuddly teddy bear after He’d been powerful and jealous and frankly monstrous before. To me that wasn’t realistic. Either God was who he was, i.e. as portrayed in the Bible, or he was not; I didn’t recognize the progressive good God and found the Biblical foundation for it not that strong either.
      
      There are some good acts performed by God in the Bible; there is some good advice, but there’s also loads and loads of divine murders. That doesn’t fit the teddy bear image, much more an actual bear who’s hunting.
      
      Reply
      1. April 10, 2017
        
        Melody
        
        To clarify: He was not as in He did not exist.
April 9, 2017

Melissa Montana

Isn’t it amazing how Christians who never met us can tell us whether we are happy or not? I think they only do this to piss on our parade; they really don’t want anyone to be happy, inside or outside the church. Why else would they forbid drinking, gambling, dancing, Harry Potter, sex, etc., etc., etc…

Reply
1. April 9, 2017
  
  Bruce Gerencser
  
  I hate when people refuse to let me tell my story on my own terms and refuse to accept it at face value. I’m not some evil man out to hurt people.
  
  As I have said more times than I can count, I’m just one man with a story to tell.
  
  For whatever reason, my story is deemed a threat and for that reason (and others) some Christians are hell bent on trashing my life.
  
  Others can’t wrap their mind around how it is possible that I am happy. No one without Jesus can be happy, right?
  
  But happy I am, even if, on most days, I live with a tremendous amount of physical debility and pain. I am so blessed….a wonderful family, a nice home, friends, even this blog. I have every reason to be happy. I am constipated today and have been laid up with a nasty cold — nine days now — so I am not 100% happy, ?but all in all, I’m smiling. Even more so if the laxative starts working. ?
  
  Reply
  1. April 9, 2017
    
    Melissa Montana
    
    As one with chronic pain and fibro, you have my sympathy. Hope you feel better!
    
    Reply
  2. April 9, 2017
    
    Byron Smith
    
    Hope you do get to feeling better, Bruce.
    
    Reply
  3. April 9, 2017
    
    Becky Wiren
    
    We should mix your guts with mine. I tend to the opposite effect and it doesn’t matter much what I eat. I still say it has to do with me pushing Jacob out 29 years ago, and stretching every muscle in my lower body below my waist. That child had a BIG head. And still does! (He’s 6′ 2″ so of course.) 😉
    
    Reply
  4. April 9, 2017
    
    Sarah
    
    I hope you get well soon.
    
    Reply
  5. April 10, 2017
    
    Becky Wiren
    
    Hope you feel better soon! Seems like everyone is getting this cold/sinus infection/bronchitis. Bob needed antibiotics but for me, I think rest is enough. Take care!
    
    Reply
2. April 10, 2017
  
  John Arthur
  
  Hi Melissa,
  
  I agree with you. So many internet Fundamentalists can’t abide people being happy. Too many of them are fixated on a religion of fear, and hate those they think their god hates. An angry god who punishes (either in this life or the next) any who deviate from their interpretation of their holy book and their theology has very violent implications.Ppersons who hold this theology find that they, themselves are not happy on the inside project their unhappiness onto others who disagree with them, and they don’t want others to be happy.
  
  I wonder if Nathan Smith falls into this category. It seems likely, though maybe I might be mistaken. I often am.
  
  Reply
April 9, 2017

Zoe

Nathan Smith – another expert. *sigh*

Reply
1. April 9, 2017
  
  Bruce Gerencser
  
  Yep.
  
  Reply
April 9, 2017

Nathan Smith

Dear Bruce,

Even if you no longer consider yourself a Christian, you are still a human being; and as such are doing what human beings do. This really isn’t that difficult.

Best,

Nathan

Reply
1. April 9, 2017
  
  Bruce Gerencser
  
  Why, thank you for acknowledging my humanity.
  
  Where can I find the list of “what human beings do”? Such a view is quite simplistic when compared to how complex we humans are.
  
  There are any number of things I could have done when I deconverted. I chose to tell my story, first because I find it therapeutic to do so, and second because it helps others.
  
  Eight years removed from my divorce from God, the larger part of my time related to this blog is spent trying to help people who have been mind fucked and psychologically abused by Evangelicalism. If I have a calling, it is this. ‘And if my email box is evidence of my reach, it seems that people want to read what I write. Yes, I have to deal with piss ants like you, but this minor irritation pales in comparison to good I accomplish through loving people and taking time to listen to them. In one sense, I remain a pastor.
  
  Reply
  1. April 9, 2017
    
    Nathan Smith
    
    Good morning Bruce!
    
    A thorough list of “what human beings do” is available to you in the various publications of the behavioral sciences. Human behavior is consistent enough that it has been studied and explained and is practically applied in clinical settings every day – this should be sufficient evidence that there are patterns and similarities among us. There is an entire profession built around “what human beings do”.
    
    There was little choice but to barge in here as a piss ant. The conversation has gone on for ten years prior to my arrival, and has long since crystalized into an adverse and hostile point of view.
    Also, your moderation policy suggested there is only one chance to say something, so I took it. It appears that the method was successful enough to garner a post on such a popular blog. You will also note from the activity record that I was searching for something benign to respond to, in categories like entertainment and sports, so no, a fight was not the original intent.
    
    Remember, Bruce, that you’re supposed to have more “tools in the shed” than any Christian by virtue of your deconversion. It seemed best to point out that you don’t seem to be making use of those tools. You say this blog is therapeutic to yourself and helpful to others. Are your efforts really all that helpful to yourself or anybody else if after all this time you can’t be a little more dispassionate about it? If you were to cast the blog in more academic terms, you could be showing others how to let go of their pain through understanding; turning their experiences into something that can be acknowledged and then set aside. The point is, freedom from the Church doesn’t seem so attractive if it only means spending the rest of your life re-living what you hate day-in and day-out.
    
    Oh, and since your blog is global, you are more of an apostle than a pastor. 😉
    
    Best,
    
    Nathan
    
    Reply
    1. April 9, 2017
      
      Bruce Gerencser
      
      I am who I am. I have never been dispassionate about anything. It is my nature, and when channeled properly it can be used for good.
      
      In the case of this blog, the focus is Evangelical Christianity — a sect whose beliefs are generally psychologically harmful and at times physically harmful.
      
      It would be irresponsible of me to not use what I know to be a help to others, especially those who have been savaged by Christianity. My email box suggests I am doing a good work. Yes that means I open myself up to attack or misunderstanding, but I’m willing to pay the price of admission.
      
      You’ll gain no traction with me discussion-wise about my motivations, psychological state, etc. I am comfortable with where I am in life, and I feel good about the progress I’ve made. Whether you accept that or not is of little matter to me.
      
      I wish you well. I’ll have nothing more to say on this matter.
      
      Bruce
      
      Reply
    2. April 9, 2017
      
      Bruce Gerencser
      
      I would also add that since I have not yet finished telling my story, I am hardly re-living he past over and over. I am, at best, writing a biography in blog form.
      
      Will there come a time when this blog’s shelf life expires? Yep, and it is sooner and not later. But, not today. There are souls to be save…
      
      Reply
    3. April 9, 2017
      
      Sarah
      
      Hey Bruce probably saved my husband’s life. He definitely helped my marriage through a rough patch. Your religion almost destroyed my hubby because of people who could either not accept him for his need to question everything or flat out took stuff from him. It almost drove him to suicide. As far as I am concerned Bruce performed a minor miracle for my husband by giving him a place to be heard. He is a happy monopantheist. I still haven’t sorted myself out yet. Some of us just need a safe space and time to be ok. Since we have visited this site I have seen his mental health improve drastically. As for Christ, maybe you will have the guts to answer this question for me, Mr. Smith, I was once almost declared insane. What drove me there was being labeled as demon possessed for a crime committed against me. I am bi and for years hated myself because of evil doctrines that claim I am heading to hell for something I was born with. Because of evil Christians my husband lost everything. Buddhism was a critical part of the therapy that brought me back to my right mind. Buddha through his teachings healed me. What has Christ ever done for me? Why should I believe in a God that has followers who not only almost totally destroyed my sweet innocent husband through their evil ways, but believe they were justified in doing so? I would really love an answer, but I don’t think you’ll have the courage to do so Mr. Smith.
      
      Reply
      1. April 9, 2017
        
        Chris
        
        Dear Mr. Smith
        Do the world a favor and research your own religion because dying and resurrecting gods are as old as religion so grow up and don’t you dare insult someone who has seen the inside of Christianity and left because of all of it’s hypocrisy!
2. April 10, 2017
  
  John Arthur
  
  Hi Nathan,
  
  If compassion, healing-mercy and loving-kindness is our guide, then isn’t a compassionate humanism far preferable to the terrors of dogmatic Fundamentalism?
  
  I am supposed to be possessed by non exist “demons” because I practise a loving-kindness meditation. I have been told that I am a servant of Satan and am a cultist, because I am an agnostic Christian humanist and liberal Christian. One guy even wrote a post on me called “the darkness of atheism/agnosticism (3)”. He shows hostility in what he writes and thinks he (and those who agree with him) alone has (have) the “Truth”. This same guy refuses to post many of my questions, puts them no longer on moderation, then if I ask him why he has deleted my comment, then then brings the original comment up and says that he has answered. He is deceitful, but won’t acknowledge his deceitfulness.
  
  He refused to comment on my suggestion that he read Bart Ehrman’s book “Forged” and ripped the heart out of my argument by not publishing this comment on his blog. He has called me a wolf, threatened me with hell, etc. Regular readers of this blog are well aware of the tactics of these spiteful Fundamentalists that when a fundamentalist appears on this blog, do you think that people who have suffered spiritual and emotional abuse from these authoritarians characters should bear more of this?
  
  Regards,
  
  John Arthur
  
  Reply
April 9, 2017

Brian

Nathan Smith, Like Christianity,the therapy you reference is all over the map. When somebody calls themselves a cognitive behavior therapist, we know nothing of their ability or lack of in terms of ‘help’ for the client. I am of the persuasion that CBT is not appropriate in many cases, particularly those where child abuse has endured. Let me be clear: When I say child abuse, I include narrow, Christian indoctrination of children, the reading of Bible and interpreting it to lend a blanket of shame over the bedtime of a child, the reference to a fallen nature and the promise of hellfire for the child who does not comply. This kind of mental and sometimes physical torture is sick and at its base anti-human.
I find the work of Janov far more helpful in allowing the client to be who they are, to feel their history and present life and to share from their own hearts. Janov’s methods let the client lead in the journey to wholeness, to being simply human. The therapist listens alot and assists, as I understand it, the client in accessing their own lives, their experiences that have shaped them. This kind of help is respectful and cherishes the innocence and humanity lf the client unlike Christianity (and some CBT) that informs the client of the rules for winning and how to comply.
You say: There was little choice but to barge in here as a piss ant. The conversation has gone on for ten years prior to my arrival, and has long since crystalized into an adverse and hostile point of view.
May I suggest that your belief system might be really much more adverse and hostile than anything Gerencser has ever said! I have been reading this blog for sometime and it never approaches anything like the harm done by paid preachers all over the country. What an odd take you have on things, Nathan Smith, a very generic, homogenized bullyism? Would you say that those little booklets handed out with the plan of salvation are a healthy CBT?
(By the way, your observation of Gerencser as an apostle is accurate but not because he is global but because he speaks his own truth and not someone else’s woo. That has always been apostolic and always will be…)

Reply
1. April 9, 2017
  
  Nathan Smith
  
  Hi Brian,
  
  The reason why CBT comes to mind is because of its efficient reductionism, and its relatively short list of schemas (approval seeking, unrelenting standards, etc…), and so it lends itself to a ready evaluation of a conversation. The point is not that Bruce or anyone else needs therapy, but rather that using the perspective of CBT, one is able to recognize and acknowledge whether what is being expressed is based on a thought or a feeling.
  
  The big picture here is that words are not accidental. This blog contains a massive amount of words written over a long time, and these words reveal a lot of anger, derision, pain, etc… Again, words are not accidental. So for instance, when anotherami says “What an insufferable, pompous, self-righteous ass this Nathan Smith seems to be” he/she is quite correct in saying so; but he/she didn’t say it to express a benign observation, but rather to make a judgement because my arrogance struck a nerve and needed to be avenged. You don’t say those kinds of things out of your executive. Everyone has feelings and is certainly entitled to express them from time to time, but when you fill up an entire blog with unremitting derision, mockery, and all-around aversion, this means something because again, words are not accidental. When such a blog is written by a thinking man, a humanist, an individual whose world-view is characterized by the ability to reason freely, this means that his work product is, for whatever reason, not in keeping with his potential or his beliefs.
  
  As for my tone, experience suggests that on the internet, which is devoid of social cues, civility isn’t sexy enough to start conversations. I am certainly willing to entertain and even acknowledge the suggestion that my entry into this blog was excessively harsh, though Bruce seems like the kind of guy who can take it, not to mention the thousands of posts with not-so-nice things he has written about the Christian faith that make any faux pas on my part seem a little less-than-obvious. As mentioned above, the idea was that there was one shot and so it was a best guess. I have been banned from the twitter feed of a notable theologian too for the same reason, so don’t feel singled-out.
  
  In a certain sense you are correct about my belief system in that it recognizes the hostility intrinsic to the human condition. That society is predicated on innumerable means and systems to contain that hostility by deterrence, observation, and restraint across cultural lines all over the globe corroborates that belief. Of course, for the Christian, Christ overwhelmingly answers this hostility, so it is possible to overstate the negativity of our view point as well.
  
  As for tracts, they can be a nice read but they are too impersonal to me. If you’re going to go out there and upset someone’s apple cart, you had better be prepared to offer them relationship and support to finish what you started.
  
  Best,
  
  Nathan
  
  Reply
  1. April 9, 2017
    
    Byron Smith
    
    If Bruce ridiculed people and engaged in ad hominem, that would be one thing, but ridiculing ideas is quite another (and acceptable, I suppose, as I do it all the time, at least in private, and sometimes publicly). I was never in the IFB movement but my own journey out of devout Christian faith has some similarities as I was also a Calvinist, and might as well have been IFB as the SBC didn’t want much to do with our kind, and the pastor I had at the time wasn’t even interested in the SBC Founders movement, so we (my church then) were IFB-like even if not really a part of it. For my part, I have no more respect for evangelical Christianity than Bruce does, or for organized religion generally, but I default to being civil and open until given reason not to be. Though sometimes that also depends on my mood, I willingly admit. I am still Totally Depraved I suppose. Though I suppose I think of myself as Mostly Depraved just like “Only Mostly Dead” in a famous movie reference.
    
    With all due respect, I do not think you understand the skeptical side as well as you think you do, Nathan, judging by your comments, especially the one right above this one. Take some time and read, not just here, but other places as well, such as Infidels dot org, and et cetera, and also other blogs like Debunking Christianity (I am not affiliated with either one) and Ex-Christian and all of that. Sorry, Bruce, I hope it’s OK to “advertise” these since these are not mine, but I love this blog. I usually just lurk, and lately until about yesterday I read only the email digests (am kind of busy trying to figure out how to fake having a life well enough to fool those who do not know my computer geek life that well). Having said that, THIS blog has been an excellent and even therapeutic read for me as well. I personally have no desire to bash the Christians who visit and comment here, and I am usually not interested in debate, but I do enjoy reading the back and forth here occasionally and everyone teaches me something, even if it comes incidentally.
    
    Reply
  2. April 9, 2017
    
    Bruce Gerencser
    
    You said:
    
    “So for instance, when anotherami says “What an insufferable, pompous, self-righteous ass this Nathan Smith seems to be” he/she is quite correct in saying so; but he/she didn’t say it to express a benign observation, but rather to make a judgement because my arrogance struck a nerve and needed to be avenged”
    
    Or you could just be an asshole.
    
    Whether you think you are psychoanalyzing me (and others) or not, you are and it has no place on this blog. At best, you are behaving recklessly, making accusations without knowing me or engaging my writing. (And I know exactly what you have read Nathan, so please don’t suggest that you have sufficiently done your homework. Shit, you couldn’t even be bothered to read all of the posts on the WHY page.)
    
    If I said to you that I have read .001 % of the Bible and based on that reading have rejected Christianity, would you as a Christian say I’ve given Christianity a fair reading? Of course not. Yet, this is exactly what you have done with my story. (And my story is far more interesting and readers can actually ask the author questions.)
    
    Remember, you emailed me, so you could have said anything to me. You chose the educated asshole approach instead of affably attempting to ask questions in hope of engaging me in thoughtful discussion. Of course, discussion never was the goal, was it Nathan. You have weighed me in the balances and found me wanting, and you wanted me to know that you “see” through me and that I am full of shit and that I am lying to myself and others when I say I am happy. (No one can truly be happy without Jesus, right?)
    
    I’m not sure what you hoped to accomplish, but consider it done.
    
    Reply
    1. April 9, 2017
      
      Nathan Smith
      
      Hi Bruce,
      
      And now the judgment. Fair enough.
      
      It is encouraging to note that at least you still believe in eternal punishment!
      
      Best,
      
      Nathan
      
      Reply
      1. April 9, 2017
        
        Geoff
        
        “It is encouraging to note that at least you still believe in eternal punishment!”
        
        What a truly horrifying, and ridiculous, concept. I really don’t think that people who use this term, expression, be what it may, ever stop to think what it entails.
      2. April 9, 2017
        
        Bruce Gerencser
        
        No, you “think” I do. Had you bothered to do your homework, you would have read about my interaction with people who were once teenagers (and Christian school attendees) in several of the churches I pastored (Somerset, Ohio and West Unity, Ohio). I have experienced love, compassion, forgiveness, and healing through these (and other) interactions. By honestly and openly telling my story, it has allowed them to understand our shared past experiences, and it has given me an opportunity to say to them, I’m sorry. While I certainly don’t shoulder all the blame (my counselor tells me I am far too hard on myself), I am to some degree culpable for the psychological and physical damage done to them as children and young adults.
      3. April 9, 2017
        
        Sarah
        
        And you are equally culpable for the good you have done my family.
      4. April 9, 2017
        
        Bruce Gerencser
        
        Thank you, Sarah.
  3. April 9, 2017
    
    anotherami
    
    Nathan, you are quite correct when you said that your arrogance struck a nerve. I wonder what a good therapist would make of the fact that you did not refute that arrogance, especially considering you later said, “As for my tone, experience suggests that on the internet, which is devoid of social cues, civility isn’t sexy enough to start conversations. I am certainly willing to entertain and even acknowledge the suggestion that my entry into this blog was excessively harsh…” You further attached a motive of revenge to my observation that was completely lacking, as I stated that you *seem* to fit that stereotype rather than state it as fact. You now reveal that it was a deliberate tactic on your part. The laughable thing is that you think it is a defense.
    
    What I did was call out your rudeness. Or as Bruce more colorfully put it, I pointed out that you were acting like an asshole. You speak of upsetting someone’s apple cart and that being civil doesn’t start conversations on the internet, but you think it’s perfectly fine for you to come here, to Bruce’s ‘internet home’ and spread whatever kind of shit you want to spew. And then you dare pretend to not only have the moral high ground and superior intellect, but are here to defend God Himself. I’ve got news for you, dickhead, God doesn’t need you to defend Him. Not if He is really God. And that is true no matter what flavor of theology one follows. Any deity that needs a puny human to defend its divinity isn’t much of a god, now is it?
    
    You finish your April 9 @ 3:31 pm with the phrase “finish what you started” and thus reveal your whole point in coming here– to start something. I tried to give you the benefit of doubt, but you have shown your true colors. You are a humorless troll crawling out of the dank dark hole of Calvinism, covered in the slime of phony self-righteousness, reeking of a superiority complex, while pretending (or, perhaps even more tragically, believing) that you have been “washed as *white* as snow by the sacred blood of the Lamb of God”. You succeeded in starting something with me, but with this I am finishing it, not you. I am done with you, Nathan and shame on you for spreading the hateful, judgemental, legalistic bullshit you try to pass off as faith in a space that is the internet home of Bruce and and those of us he lets in as his guests, the followers of this blog. Show me one single case of Jesus of Nazareth invading someone’s home uninvited, let alone with your attitude. If your parents tried to teach you basic manners along with your sick version Christianity, clearly the wrong things stuck.
    
    P.S. For future reference: When you inspire a bleeding-heart liberal woman who was raised as a Quaker pacifist to tear you a new asshole, you done screwed the pooch.
    
    To my fellow posters– If I *EVER* come across like this jackass has, please do me the favor of tearing a strip off of me too. We all have our blind spots, but this is a cancerous ugliness that I don’t want to be infected with. This blog is an immense help to me, in part because Bruce lets me ramble as I sort through a series of things both spiritual and political over the past few years that really have shaken me to my foundations. I know I comment too often and that I’m way too wordy but damn… Please don’t let me get away with being an asshole on top of it all too.
    
    Reply
    1. April 9, 2017
      
      Bruce Gerencser
      
      The thing is he sent his comment via the contact form, not a blog comment, so his comment about finding an appropriate post to comment on doesn’t ring true. And if his intended goal was to start a discussion with me, he really, really needs to work on his approach.
      
      Reply
    2. April 9, 2017
      
      Byron Smith
      
      I will join the amen corner on anotherami’s comment! Calvinism breeds elitism and arrogance in general, in my opinion. I have known some fine Christian people who are Calvinists who are not that way, however. But in a very practical sense, it is especially difficult to be humble when you believe that you have been chosen by God to be superior to the non-elect, and even if you claim to not know exactly who the elect and non-elect are, I bet that most Calvinists think they have a pretty good idea whether they admit it or not. Incidentally, that is why I like Bruce Gerencser’s story about his deconversion so much: for all sakes and appearances he was as “elect” as anyone could be (though I do not know him personally) and he turned out to be another godless heathen infidel in spite of all the fleshly religiosity as it were. That ought to strike fear into the hearts of Calvinists who take their faith seriously, while making reprobate minds such as my own rejoice in our shared condemnation according to that religion. 😉 I have no use for drive-by Solomon and Elihu apologists, because even if they are intelligent as Nathan is, his social skills are sorely lacking and he has earned the verbal abuse in this thread (and Nathan, “ain’t nobody’s fault but yer own” dude…).
      
      Reply
    3. April 10, 2017
      
      Trenton
      
      Anotherami, I generally find your comments to be edifying and on point with the discussion at hand, more so than most of my comments which can veer off into snark or political potshots(Im trying not to as much anymore).
      
      Moving down the religious spectrum from fervent follower to wherever your final destination is can shake anyone as it often messes with fundamental beliefs and even parts of your identity. When I finally admitted to myself that I don’t believe in God anymore, there were some tears because it was a big change.
      
      As for that rant you just had, trust me from my personal experience, venting frustrations is healthy and normal. I cant speak for Bruce or the other regular commenters, but you really do not post anything that warrants correcting like Mr morality on his high horse(Nathan smith just to be clear).
      
      Ps that being said, If I ever go too far feel free to correct me???
      
      Reply
      1. April 10, 2017
        
        anotherami
        
        Thanks Trenton. As for the rant, whether it’s because of my spiritual journey, the sad state of affairs in American politics or that I’m simply turning into a crotchety old woman is hard to tell at this point. I do know that I’m sick to death of the pseudo-intellectualism of the type Nathan spewed first in his email and then again in the comments. It’s nothing more than putting lipstick on a pig and claiming that the lipstick cures the problem of the smell.
        
        Regarding where I eventually shake out on the religious spectrum, I’ve always been a bit of a believing agnostic, because it is clear we have no objective proof for any religious claims. My own life holds numerous experiences that make me lean toward maintaining a core belief in Something, but my understanding of the nature of that Divine Something is changing drastically.
        
        I suppose it is a consequence of aging. As I get far closer to the end of my time here than the beginning, I don’t want to survive another x number of years. I want to fully live however many days or even hours I have left. And to do what I can so that others might reach that same point of view with more years ahead than behind them. I want all of us to get to really live, not just survive. Survival is a struggle, living is a joy. Namaste.
  4. April 11, 2017
    
    Jada
    
    “his blog contains a massive amount of words written over a long time, and these words reveal a lot of anger, derision, pain, etc… Again, words are not accidental.”
    
    Let’s take a closer look, shall we? Yes? All right, then.
    
    ‘(the bible) contains a massive amount of words written over a long time . . . Again, words are not accidental.’
    
    FIFY. No, many words are most assuredly NOT accidental, are they?
    
    Reply
    1. April 11, 2017
      
      Bruce Gerencser
      
      Nathan clicked on the links for 7-9 pages/posts. He read, at most, 10,000 or so words out almost 1,500,000 that I have written — .0066666 percent of the total words. Nathan has not sufficiently read my writing to come to any conclusions about my character, mental state, etc.
      
      I do agree with him on one thing…my words were indeed intentional. ? I say what I intend to say. Yes, my writing is passionate, pointed, and direct. Nathan wrongly conflates my passion with emotions he has deemed inappropriate or negative.
      
      He also mentions that my writing reflects pain. Yep, it sure does, both physical and emotional. Why is this a bad thing? My writing simply reflects my humanity. While no author is totally transparent and honest, I do my best to give readers the unvarnished Bruce Gerencser. And physically, I struggle every day with chronic illness and pain. How could my writing not reflect this pain.
      
      When my story bumps up against the lives of others with our shared experiences, sometimes these people are portrayed in a negative light. I can’t help that. All I know to do is to be as open and honest as possible If in doing so it makes some people look bad, perhaps they should have treated me better. ? Don’t want to be viewed as an asshole in my storytelling? Don’t act like one.
      
      Reply
      1. April 11, 2017
        
        Jada
        
        The last things any of these tools are interested in are truth, honesty, and transparency. Your raw honesty, and that of many here, is something to be feared, derided, denied, marginalized, and ultimately, destroyed.
        
        ‘Nathan Smith’ should actually read more than .07% of your writings, as the answers to his questions will surely be found there. It’s not even about ‘getting you back to god.’ They’re just all a’jostling for position to be ‘The ONE, baybeee!’ that wrestles ol’ atheist Bruce back into the ‘loving’ fold and the sweet arms of Jesus. Not a one of them finding it odd that their go-to solution involves manhandling (mindhandling?) their marks. ‘Nathan Smith’ is just another flim-flam, ah, creature, peddling the only crap it knows. And gaslighting. Much gaslighting. Like no one would notice.
        
        Sure hope “Nathan Smith’s” ‘professor’ is grading on a curve this week, though, lol. 😀
      2. April 12, 2017
        
        Bruce Gerencser
        
        Thanks, Jada.
2. April 9, 2017
  
  Sarah
  
  Amen!!!
  
  Reply
April 9, 2017

anotherami

What an insufferable, pompous, self-righteous ass this Nathan Smith seems to be! This is the exact type of Christian that makes me want to not bear that label in any way these days, regardless of my current spiritual evolution. I will admit that some of these far-right loonies I’ve read about here have convinced me that the Anti-Christ might actually be a real thing though… and his name was John Calvin. In my theology however, even the Calvinists will make it into Heaven, though not without some serious “oh shit” moments before they get to see that there never was a gate one had to go through, narrow or not. I wouldn’t blame Bruce one iota for sitting nearby, just to watch the various looks on their faces when they finally stumble through. (One’s heart being the measure, not one’s theology.) The mixture of sheer terror, profound confusion and utter relief would probably generate some comical facial contortions. Then again, it is Heaven, so I don’t really think these people with be forced to bear the burden of exactly how demonically they treated their fellow human beings for long.

The real miracle of forgiveness is learning how to forgive and love ourselves; something Calvinism absolutely forbids. It is well known that Jesus said all religion/faith could be summed up in two simple rules: Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. Calvinism makes this impossible, because at its core it teaches one to despise oneself, as does traditional Roman Catholicism. Thus they despise humanity since humanity is simply “myself” times 7.5 billion or so. The results are plain to see throughout history and in current events. It’s also made plain by the large number of commenters here who have struggled with depression. It takes some serious mental convolutions to not be seriously depressed when your core vision of yourself is as someone who deserves to be unimaginably tortured for all eternity. Forgiving myself is something I’m still working on. I think I’m getting close to at least not condemning.

Reply
1. April 9, 2017
  
  Byron Smith
  
  I hate to admit it, but as a former Calvinist, I really like your take on Calvinism. I have two words about my former soteriology, and they are “never again”. In one very real sense, Calvinism makes the most sense to me of all the soteriology I studied. In another sense, though, several of its implications are rather hideous if true. To this day, having been out of the faith for almost a decade, I still struggle with the whole elect / passed over thing (or if you take it as far as I did to its logical conclusion, a form of Supralapsarianism where the non-elect were predestined for condemnation prior to the logical consideration of the Fall). In the back of my mind, I still sometimes worry that I’m not elect, not one of “God’s Goobers”, but rather non-elect, i.e., “God’s Garbage” and was predestined to be. Which somehow makes me worry more than a belief system where I supposedly could do something about my spiritual condition. And I have forgotten most of the theology I think I knew at one point, but that keeps hanging on like a particular toilet paper commercial.
  
  Reply
2. April 9, 2017
  
  Brian
  
  The real miracle of forgiveness is learning how to forgive and love ourselves…
  
  Not just the miracle but the only actual forgiveness that makes it possible to even consider forgiveness for ‘the other’. Christianity of the Calvinist stripe is built to harm from the get-go. It does damage to the self and encourages self-hatred. We suffer from depression, I think, for more fundamental, human resaons such as lack of healthy bonding as a baby or trauma in the womb or in early life. Christianity is designed to prey on human injury and to deal with suffering by what they call atonement and what I call denial and aversion. Nathan is a prime example of somebody who is well-wrapped in his intellect, not comfortable with expressing a full range of feeling: On every occasion he can he adds little slivers of suggestion that anger, bitterness, negative feelings are not to be felt for long or else they are unhealthy. This is Christian bullshit. Anger is glory and wholly needed for a happy life. Bitterness is what happens when one ‘tastes’ something that causes this reaction. Sadness and misery come our way quite naturally and should be embraced like the fullness they are in their turn.
  Nathan, you state that tracts are impersonal but your expression is also so impersonal, so so like a homogenized Christian jounalist writing for the home-town crowd. Using the psych construct that pleases you only allows you padded space to express your feelings. You might consider expressing them more directly from your heart, if you can, rather than disappearing in your ‘executive’. Do you see how what you write is all about your feelings even if it is couched in ‘executive’?
  
  Reply
April 9, 2017

Melody

Looks like he doesn’t like it when you’re a little angry or snarkish on your very own blog… Hmpf, it’s your blog, I’d say.

It’s the old: why is the atheist angry at God? He can only be angry at God because he knows God exist! If he truly believed God didn’t exist, he wouldn’t be angry at him.

So basically – in his view – you were supposed to stop mentioning God alltogether from the moment you stopped believing in him. If you take that to the extreme you’re not even able to say: I just found that I stopped believing in …. oops, can’t mention god anymore, because I don’t believe in him anymore.

And so we wouldn’t be able to mention any God’s name that we don’t believe in – bit hard for antropologists that 😉

Reply
1. April 9, 2017
  
  Bruce Gerencser
  
  I have been told that because I still talk about God and Christianity that means deep down, you know where the mythical soul resides, I still believe in God.
  
  I also talk about serial killers, vampires, and zombies….guess what that means? ?
  
  Reply
  1. April 9, 2017
    
    Byron Smith
    
    That Jesus was a Lich? 😉
    
    Reply
    1. April 9, 2017
      
      Byron Smith
      
      Though this might be more accurate? http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rolltodisbelieve/2014/04/21/hes-not-a-zombie-or-a-lich/
      
      Reply
2. April 9, 2017
  
  Michael Mock
  
  “Looks like he doesn’t like it when you’re a little angry or snarkish on your very own blog…”
  
  I’d have said that it looks he doesn’t like it when people point out that he’s full of shit. That would, of course, be one of those consistent human patterns of behavior that he seems to be trying to use to dismiss Bruce’s writing. Clearly, in writing his initial email to Bruce, he didn’t send it to express a benign observation, but rather to make a judgement because something he read here struck a nerve and needed to be avenged. (It’s the Internet, so you can’t see me rolling my eyes as I type that, but trust me: I am.)
  
  Fucking armchair psychiatrists…
  
  Reply
  1. April 9, 2017
    
    Bruce Gerencser
    
    And that’s how I took his email–another judgmental Christian out to set me straight.
    
    In Nathan’s case, he couched his attack with an air of intellectualism and psychology. I actually prefer the drooling Fundamentalist Baptist who uses single syllable words to tell me the “truth” than pseudo-intellectuals who hide their true beliefs with big words.
    
    Reply
    1. April 10, 2017
      
      Matilda
      
      Yes, that’s exactly how I took it, a fundy trying to sound all intellectual. Two words for Mr Smith arrogance and rudeness. Does he honestly think these qualities will attract any non-believer/ex-believer back to his cause? I suggest many of us who enjoy this blog have ‘been there, done that, seen through it’. Thank you once again for all you write, Mr Gerencser, it’s a lifeline to some of us. (And the wicked side of me enjoys the comprehensive take-downs of fundy trolls!)
      
      Reply
      1. April 10, 2017
        
        Byron Smith
        
        If Nathan Smith is a Calvinist like I was, he might not care about being winsome or attractive. That would be the job of the Holy Spirit to lead a person into truth, or silence and shame the godless heathen infidels like us with superior debate points and Godly rebuke (haha, yeah right). I can identify a lot of his thought patterns as being very similar to my former ones back when I was in the faith. He needs to learn what humility and grace mean and actually are, not what their theological definitions are. He got quite a rebuttal here in this thread and I am carnal enough to have enjoyed every minute of it. I do not see any further responses from him, so I do not know if he is allowed to comment further or not. But the best thing that could probably happen to him is for him to have a crisis of faith that leaves him with lingering unconquerable doubts, if not removes him from religious faith altogether, and he might learn to be a decent human being at that point.
      2. April 11, 2017
        
        Bruce Gerencser
        
        He is allowed to comment and I do know he is still checking the discussion thread.
        
        Perhaps Nathan determined with all his psychological expertise that I am a cult leader, and that commenters on this post are my brainwashed followers.
        
        Yeah, about as much as my cat obeys me when I tell him to stop doing something. Free minded, rational people here. Attempts to control people would be met with derision and me being digitally burned at the stake . ??
April 10, 2017

Bruce Gerencser

Thank you everyone for the kind words. I suspect your words will be viewed as enabling my bad behavior. ??

Reply
1. April 10, 2017
  
  Zoe
  
  Earlier I had to delete my comment before posting it. ‘Twas not very Zoe-like if you know what I mean. Yikes! 😉
  
  Reply
2. April 10, 2017
  
  Becky Wiren
  
  That’s right Bruce. We’re all going to hell together! 😉
  
  Reply
April 10, 2017

Sarah

I enable you, you enable me. Everyone has the right to a space to heal, and that’s what you have provided for so many of us.

Reply
April 10, 2017

Connie

Hi gang. Wow! 60+ comments. Is this a record?

Mr Smith sure believes he is all that and a bag of chips. Ugh indeed for his fake expertice. In my opinion Bruce is a treasure and Mr Smith can go pound sand.

There. I’m a bit emotional but fake intellectuals make me cranky! It’s hard enough to use skills in life without having to face bullies who pretend to be something they are not. Hint – if you use skills correctly the need for bullying goes away.

(Stage whisper) I think Mr Smith is doing CBT wrong!!!!!

Reply
1. April 11, 2017
  
  Bruce Gerencser
  
  Not a record, but top ten! I think the Why I Hate Jesus post has the most comments,
  
  Reply
April 11, 2017

Jada

“Shit, you couldn’t even be bothered to read all of the posts on the WHY page.)”

Keeping its own proclamations in mind, how does ‘Nathan Smith’ know ‘This blog contains a massive amount of words written over a long time . . . ?’

How do you know that, ‘Nathan Smith?’ Did you r-e-a-d all of them?

Yes, that’s what I thought.

😀 ((snicker))

Reply
April 11, 2017

J.D. Matthews

Well, gosh, Nathan Smith, with your big Pharisee words and pompous Pharisee attitude, you’ve definitely convinced me to run out to the nearest church and get saved!!

–No one. Ever.

Piss off.

Reply
May 26, 2022

ObstacleChick

Well, this was fun! What this Nathan fellow needs to learn is that many if us have suffered from abuse and trauma in fundamentalist religion. We are all in different places on our journeys in working through that trauma. Some of us are angry, some hurt, some have found peace, some struggle tremendously, some are learning to differentiate normal human behaviors and emotions that were forbidden or suppressed in high-demand religion. Recovery from trauma isn’t necessarily linear, nor is it on a timeline, and something can knock us right out of a better place into experiencing that trauma all over again. It’s complicated. But we shouldn’t be judged on one snapshot in time where we are at one moment.

Reply