Dr. David Tee — who is neither a Doctor or a Tee — mounted his Internet pulpit recently to opine on why people leave Christianity. Here’s an excerpt from his post:
People have all sorts of excuses and they have all sorts of motivating triggers that help them make a decision. One thing that bothers us about the reasons they give is that there is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Yet, these people who have turned away from different religions, mostly those that claim to be Christian., have decided to toss all of their faith away instead of moving to a different church (non-cultic) that meets their needs and shows them what Christianity is all about.
We are not going to list the reasons here. . .
Your eternal destination is on your shoulders, it is your responsibility, not the other people in the church.
Yes, many people do not follow Jesus and act in a way that is consistent with biblical instructions or commands. But you get to rebuke them if they err. using other people’s behavior to leave the church, Christ, and other religious organizations is simply making an excuse for your decision and failing to take responsibility for that momentous occasion.
Most of the reasons read like excuses. They have little legitimacy and point the finger towards the idea ‘I do not like what you did so I will punish you by leaving the church.’ Not a very smart or common sense decision.
….
But as we said, most are excuses and it looks like people did not want to be in the church anyway and were looking for a face-saving way to leave the church.
Evil is hard at work in destroying people so it is somewhat understandable why these illogical and non-common sense decisions were made. People seem to like doing knee-jerk reactions when it comes to church and religion overall.
What is ironic is the fact that you do not see people saying the same type of things about how non-believers or non-religious people treated them and their families. If they like to be treated well why then do they not leave unbelief when they or their families are treated in horrendous ways?
….
However, leaving the church or your faith over those incidents is not a smart thing to do. Those decisions say a lot about the people making those excuses:
#1. They are not looking to God to meet their needs. They are looking at pastors, etc and when they do not get what they want they take it out on God and punish him.
#2. They are holding the pastors and churches to a standard they do not hold themselves to. Are those people who deserted the faith, etc., doing what they expect other religious people to do?
#3. They are selfish and only want a one-way street their way.
#4. Their own claims to be a believer were not based on a strong foundation and they were weak, toppled over the first situation that provided negative input. They were superficial believers and probably like the seeds that were scattered on rocky or hard soil according to the parable Jesus told.
#5. They do not give God much credit or really cared about him. They were turned off of God for very petty acts that could have been overcome with prayer and a change in churches. This does not say much about them and their commitment to God or their religions.
Tee’s real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen, so I will use his legal name in the remainder of his post.
Thiessen’s post is a theological trainwreck. Thiessen supposedly has a Bible college education and was a pastor, but many of his posts reveal that his theology can be best described as paint-by-number; except for the fact that when a number corresponds to a particular color, Thiessen uses whatever color he wants; regardless of how doing so makes the painting look. Thanks to his literalist, inerrantist, “it means what it says” view of the Protestant Christian Bible, Thiessen has beliefs that are, at times heterodox, or even heretical. I have concluded that he doesn’t really understand the Christian gospel, as he vacillates from salvation by grace to salvation by works to salvation by right beliefs to an admixture of these beliefs. I don’t doubt that Thiessen is a Christian, but damn, I’m not certain that he understands the gospel or has an in-depth understanding of Christian — particularly Evangelical — soteriology. While it would be fun to shred Thiessen’s theological beliefs, I am more concerned about the lies he continues to spread about people who left Evangelical Christianity and embraced atheism, agnosticism, paganism, or non-Christian religions. I say “lies” because Thiessen has been reading my writing for several years. He has written uncounted posts about me personally, Ben Berwick, and the readers of this blog. His unhealthy, creepy obsession with me is well known. No matter how many times I tell Thiessen that I am NOT interested in hooking up with him, he continues to write about me, uttering lies and half-truths as effortlessly as does disgraced congressman George Santos.
I have repeatedly talked about the reasons why I deconverted. I have, time after time, responded to Evangelical apologists who, much like Thiessen, think they know the “real” reasons people walk away from Christianity; people who attack the character of the deconverted and malign their motives for doing so. These scurrilous attackers of former Evangelicals often pontificate on the whys of deconversion without meaningfully and extensively talking to those who have actually deconverted. God condemns such behavior in Proverbs 18:13: Answering before listening is both stupid and rude.
Thiessen says that people like me are excuse-makers; that we blame others for our loss of faith; that the church hurt us, so we left, with feelings hurt, never to return. Thiessen later says that those who leave Christianity are selfish, people who want their way, and when they don’t get it, they take it out on God and punish him (there’s some of that famous Thiessen theology). Thiessen suggests that people who deconvert are superficial Christians or even fake believers; that they never cared much for God or gave credit to him (for what, exactly, Thiessen doesn’t say).
I ask you, dear readers, do Thiessen’s reasons for why people leave Christianity reflect why you are no longer a Christian? Thiessen knows better. He knows exactly why people deconvert. I have explained this to him numerous times in my writing and email responses to him. It is evident, at least to me, that Thiessen is not an honest interlocuter; that his goal is to demean and defame, and not honestly and humbly understand.
What do you think about Thiessen’s post? Please share your erudite thoughts in the comment section. I am sure “Dr.” Tee will appreciate your responses. I would suggest that you comment on his blog, but he doesn’t allow comments.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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Yep, sounds right to me. I’m punishing god. It’s my kink. So?
😀 So what’s the safe-word of God?
You want in on the action? I heard he’s into that. Something something trinity?
Derrick Thomas Thiessen: A very long, full yawn claims me.
@Brian, ah me too. I think if Doc T first needs to first realize why people don’t leave: They were indoctrinated as children and rather than challenge their upbringing they just continue. 2nd reason there is considerable community pressure to remain and few role models of other paths.
Leaving often requires a catalyst. In the same way a chemical reaction’s activation energy is lowered by a catalyst, some stimulus that allows a person to look outside the box they were placed in during childhood.
Obviously Mr Tee already knows why I deconverted, so why should I bother to say anything? ((Sarcasm))
My deconversion was a long and arduous journey with stops and starts along the way. It took me 20 years to “take a break from religion” as I wasn’t mentally and emotionally able to fully process what I had seen and learned about the falsehoods of Christianity. I spent about 7 years ignoring religion entirely. For some reason I became ready to explore previously forbidden literature, and I spent several years consuming scholarly and nonscholarly materials on Christianity’s origins, archaeology, science, Bible scholars (such as Bart Ehrman), history, politics, and psychology, in addition to personal deconversion stories. None of my reasons for leaving Christianity had anything to do with church people being mean to me, me wanting to “sin”, or whatever else Mr Tee and those like him feel like telling themselves so they feel better and morally superior. Mr Tee and those like him are not interested in actual engagement or conversation. No, they’d rather preach at us while we silently listen. Ain’t gonna happen, buddy.
However, leaving the church or your faith over those incidents is not a smart thing to do. Those decisions say a lot about the people making those excuses:
Zoe: However, leaving the abusive partner or family member over those incidents is not a smart thing to do. Those decisions say a lot about the people making those excuses.
#1. They are not looking to God to meet their needs. They are looking at pastors, etc and when they do not get what they want they take it out on God and punish him.
Zoe: The abused are not looking to God to meet their needs. They should ignore the abusers and focus on God. It’s not God’s fault there are abusers in His church.
#2. They are holding the pastors and churches to a standard they do not hold themselves to. Are those people who deserted the faith, etc., doing what they expect other religious people to do?
Zoe: They are holding the abusers to a standard they don’t even hold themselves. No one is perfect. We are all sinners. My goodness! Do those people who deserted the abuser(s) expect others who are abused to desert the abusers too?
#3. They are selfish and only want a one-way street their way.
Zoe: The deserters who escaped the abuse are selfish. Always were actually. It just shows up when they finally say enough is enough and find that one-way street.
#4. Their own claims to be a believer were not based on a strong foundation and they were weak, toppled over the first situation that provided negative input. They were superficial believers and probably like the seeds that were scattered on rocky or hard soil according to the parable Jesus told.
Zoe: Their claims of being spiritually, physically, mentally, sexually and financially abused were never based on a strong foundation. A weak one maybe, after all, only Jesus is strong. She only had to be hit once, assaulted once, used as a scapegoat in front of the abusers etc. once and then the poor weak girl took a fit and stomped off with her ball, refusing to play in the sandbox with all the other abusers. Tisk Tisk. If she really wasn’t so damn superficial she’d be one of us. Boo hoo, so her husband the senior pastor broke her arm in a fit of rage when she didn’t submit. If her seed had fallen elsewhere, she’d forgive, shut up and stay. Hallelujah! Praise be!
#5. They do not give God much credit or really cared about him. They were turned off of God for very petty acts that could have been overcome with prayer and a change in churches. This does not say much about them and their commitment to God or their religions.
Zoe: If only she had prayed harder and without ceasing for her abusive partner. If only she had sought council at the “other” “true church” down on “The Stone Rolled Away” boulevard. Or maybe God hasn’t got many abusers in the Catholic Church over on “Mother Mary’s” avenue? Maybe another religion won’t have abusers? Alas, just focus on “God” and ignore the believers who abuse you, even if they kill you.
“Tee” is teed- off since again, it seems. He can’t scare anyone back into a church that they should have left, and this bothers him. Oh, and isn’t he facing charges in the States for something that he did a few years back ?😁
Spot on, Zoe. ❤️
While I have had the sorts of experiences that have caused other people to question or doubt the existence of God or Jesus, they are not the reason why I no longer believe. Nor is my non-belief a result of laziness or a matter of convenience. Rather, believing in God, let alone that he dictated the words in the Bible, simply didn’t make any sense to me, no matter how much I read, thought and prayed about it. I suspect that many other readers of this blog—and Bruce himself—could say something similar.
Fake Dr. Tee’s response:
The reasons given on those other websites do point one to the conclusions we listed. The atheists who are upset have no argument. They did not make a better decision and moved to something superior. Instead, they made the worst decision they could and now live in a world of fantasy as they deny reality.
People are not going to like being told the truth. They want to carve out their own world and make their own rules to live by. We see that take place every day in the non-repentant LGBTQ and other unbelieving communities.
Incapable of handling reality and God’s rules, they go into a mode of denial and think everything is fantastic on their side of the religious fence. However, they have never proved the Bible to be wrong and they are stuck with their decisions.
The church cannot listen to unbelievers and once religious people and change its ways. That is because those groups gave up the truth when they were deceived and went what they thought was their own better way.
They are completely deceived and have nothing to contribute to the church. What they do not realize is that the Church must listen to God and please him. Unfortunately, that does not always happen which is why we mentioned Peter’s verse about making one’s own calling and election sure.
No one is going to find perfect Christians in every church. The key is for them to ignore those people, or rebuke them, and continue to live their lives according to Jesus’ commands and instructions.
The people that were once in the church only opened the door to evil and let it work its deception on them when they started looking at other Christians and how they lived etc., instead of keeping their eyes on Christ.
They went down like Peter did when he did the same thing. If nothing else, that event of walking on the water provides a vital example of why it is important to keep one’s eyes on Christ. Even though Paul said, be like me as I am like Christ, Paul was not giving permission to look at other people and how they live.
He was pointing them to Christ and telling them to follow him. He was not telling them to follow other Christians and criticize their lifestyles. In fact, when you look at those reasons given on those other websites, you will see those that left the church violated do not judge, do not condemn, and other instructions given by Jesus.
The burden of their decisions rests on those that left the church for a variety of reasons. No one told them t leave, no one twisted their arm, and all the reasons used are excuses because they thought differently than God. They thought they knew better than God as well.
One of their problems is that they started listening to other people who left their religions and decided it was all a myth. The Christian faith is not a myth and God is real, as is heaven, hell, and Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross.
We are not going to address the content the BG website published about us. We have not treated him in a bad manner yet he continually attacks us for no real reason. He is one of the atheists that got upset at what we wrote.
But the above applies to him as well as he alone is responsible for his decision to leave the faith. He and others like him can point fingers but in the end, it is his and their decision alone. If they cannot stand the message there is nothing that can be done about it.
https://theologyarchaeology.wordpress.com/2023/04/13/some-atheists-got-upset/
As usual, Mr Tee refuses to engage with the arguments and simply repeats assertions. How does he know that the bible is true? He doesn’t. How does he know that Christianity is not a myth? Like all religions it is entirely mythical. Has he ever made any serious attempt to prove that a god exists? No. He seems content to sit in his back room, probably in solitude, typing out his gibberish, blissfully unaware that he’s a laughing stock.
Tee’s an Evangelical preacher. He has three sermons and five hundred titles. He just repeats the same shit over, and over, and over again.
I would gladly engage him in honest, thoughtful discussion. However, he doesn’t think I have anything to offer; that I am evil and demonic. It is impossible to interact with such people. All I know to do is periodically respond to the nonsense he writes, knowing he won’t hear I word I have to say. His posts are reminders of the rot and hate frequently found in Evangelicalism. Tee’s continued attacks on me and Ben Berwick, and anyone else he disagrees with, gives Evangelicalism a bad name. Why would any of us want anything to do with his God; his Jesus; his religion? No thanks.
Ok, as always, as with most Christians, someone always has to reference the LGBTQIA+ when trying to prove why people are so evil.
I proudly will wear the mantle of “non-repentant LGBTQ”. I see no reason to repent to an entity that doesn’t exist. And, since I am such an abomination and sooooo evil, I will take it even further and tell all Christians who use their squalid belief as an excuse for bigotry to fuck off, and take their pitiful whiny god with them.
This brainless ignoramus projects their own self indulgent traits onto others, claiming people like me want to force others to live by my rules. But all I want is to be allowed to exist and be left alone. You know…equality…something I can have without taking anything from others. If anyone is forcing others to live by their rules, you need look no further than Christian fluff brains who want to ban books, limit what is taught in schools and universities, control women’s health choices, shut down libraries, limit parental health choices for, gender non conforming children to protect them from “mutilation” while doing nothing to protect children killed in schools, focus all political effort on anti trans and anti abortion laws, and still leave some time to expel uppity black legislators who dare to demand to be heard.
But yeah, it’s the LGBTQIA+ that want to make everyone live by their rules. 😏🙄🙄🙄
As for this belief that people leave religion because they look at other Christians and see them fail, or are hurt by them, well, no, that’s not how it worked. I was less than 10 when I saw people in church who failed to live up to even the basic of biblical expectations. And as a preachers kid I endured my share of judgment and hurtful comments from people who had no reason to act as they did. I saw how they tried to tear down there to make themselves better. I saw how they would turn on their ministers at the slightest provocation and for the stupidest reasons. I was taught to look to god, not people, and to follow where god lead regardless of what others said or did. My father was a shining example of walking through the morass of Christianity while holding to his belief in god and the directions given him. He wanted to pull people up, not tear them down.
And even with the 18 years of intense Christian teaching, and evne after many years where i daily strove to follow god and even successfully denied the reality of who I was, I still walked away. And this only happened after an intense effort to move as close to god as possible. And it did not happen under the influence of non-believers or atheists. I had long ago decided they had no influence on my belief.
It was god who failed and caused my deconstruction. He failed in all of his promises and that ultimately allowed me to see god of Christianity was nothing more than a myth.
Mr Tee’s response – lie back and think of Jesus. Great advice for young brides who weren’t taught sex education or consent, great advice for Christians today. ((Sarcasm))
Tee Party’s site doesn’t seem to allow comments, you can “like” his posts, but evidently no one has, since we may be his only readers. Not that I would have more readers than myself were I to start a blog!
And I guess his pronouns are first person plural, which probably violates some “law” in Leviticus and/or Deuteronomy. Plurality of reference is no doubt the exclusive province of the deity.
The reasons given on those other websites do point one to the conclusions we listed. The atheists who are upset have no argument. They did not make a better decision and moved to something superior. Instead, they made the worst decision they could and now live in a world of fantasy as they deny reality.
Zoe: The reasons given on those other websites do point one to the conclusions we listed. The Christians who are upset have no argument.
People are not going to like being told the truth. They want to carve out their own world and make their own rules to live by. We see that take place every day in the non-repentant LGBTQ and other unbelieving communities.
Zoe: Many Christian people are not going to like being told they do not possess “the truth.” They possess “a” truth that helps them carve out their own world and make their own rules to live by based on ancient texts that they believe apply to today. We see that today as the many Christians hold fast to literalism as the way, the truth and the light. And in so doing, as they literally hold to their own interpretations, they remain unrepentant in skins of hatred. Dehumanizing those who are not them.
Incapable of handling reality and God’s rules, they go into a mode of denial and think everything is fantastic on their side of the religious fence. However, they have never proved the Bible to be wrong and they are stuck with their decisions.
Zoe: Incapable of handling reality. They follow God’s rules. Every single one of them, or so they believe. They proclaim it but their reality is hypocritical. They exist in a mode of denial, thinking they are the righteous alone and they prostrate themselves on their exclusive side of the religious fence. They have never proved the Bible to be correct and they are stuck with their decision.
The church cannot listen to unbelievers and once religious people and change its ways. That is because those groups gave up the truth when they were deceived and went what they thought was their own better way.
Zoe: The church cannot listen to the heathens, to those who have turned away because their truth exposes our truth. They must not be allowed to speak. We cannot allow discourse with them and we certainly cannot dine with them. They have knowledge of our sins. They point them out but alas, it’s for not because every night I kneel and ask God to forgive me for abusing my wife. We Christians alone have the better way no matter what they say.
They are completely deceived and have nothing to contribute to the church. What they do not realize is that the Church must listen to God and please him. Unfortunately, that does not always happen which is why we mentioned Peter’s verse about making one’s own calling and election sure.
Zoe: The Christians, they believe every “i” is dotted and every “t” is crossed. Though they fail the church at every turn, they believe they hear the voice of God and without question they must listen to words in a book and voices in a pew who speak for God. It pleases God. They bow down to Him who will not set fire to their souls for eternity.
No one is going to find perfect Christians in every church. The key is for them to ignore those people, or rebuke them, and continue to live their lives according to Jesus’ commands and instructions.
Zoe: My dear. I understand the pastor raped your 12 year old. I know dear, it was wrong. But honey, the enlightened of us know, that Christians aren’t perfect. Who told you that? That’s a lie from Satan himself. No, we don’t need to report it the the police. We are to take care of these matters here in the house of God. Trust that we know and remember, we are put in these positions appointed by God Himself. You are to obey.
My goodness. Are you sure those bruises are from your husband? Maybe you just walked into a wall and broke your nose?
Oh my goodness. No, the pastor would never do that! Why, he helped me during my OCD episodes. He was so kind. I can’t imagine, no I cannot accept that he is having an affair.
What? I was there. I saw the pastor’s wife have a break-down in the office. She scared the hell out of me as I watched her decompensate and become violent. I was there when all the men left the office for their own safety not even once considering my safety. Leaving me alone in there with a woman who clearly was suffering. Oh deary, it’s nothing. Let’s sweep the dirt under the carpet. Let us commit to the “don’t talk rule.”
They key is to ignore those people. Rebuke them. Yes they are Christians and yes they are sinning all over the place, but look, move on from it and just focus on your relationship with Christ. Don’t let these poor unfortunate souls take your eye off the ball. God will handle them. You get back to serving the Lord. Next time someone lifts a filing cabinet and tries to throw it at you, just look up, Christ is there. Keep your thoughts in heavenly places after all, if the filing cabinet kills you you’ll soon be there. Now, let’s get back to baptizing, passing the plate and getting our lessons planned for youth group.
The people that were once in the church only opened the door to evil and let it work its deception on them when they started looking at other Christians and how they lived etc., instead of keeping their eyes on Christ.
Zoe: Keeping their eyes on Christ, they asked about Noah’s flood. About Sarah turning to a pillar of salt. To Noah’s daughters incestually hob-nobbing with their drunken dad. To the idea that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God would knowingly put a serpent in the garden. And then blame them for not obeying? Um, hello God, what’s with the set-up? What were “we” thinking?
They went down like Peter did when he did the same thing. If nothing else, that event of walking on the water provides a vital example of why it is important to keep one’s eyes on Christ. Even though Paul said, be like me as I am like Christ, Paul was not giving permission to look at other people and how they live.
Zoe: Paul was not giving permission to look at other people and how they live. So, what are you doing David, here, pontificating about other people and how they live?
Zoe: Paul was not giving permission to look at other people and how they live. So, what are you doing David, here, pontificating about other people and how they live?
He was pointing them to Christ and telling them to follow him. He was not telling them to follow other Christians and criticize their lifestyles. In fact, when you look at those reasons given on those other websites, you will see those that left the church violated do not judge, do not condemn, and other instructions given by Jesus.
Zoe: It’s that do not judge, do not condemn that sustains you doesn’t it David? As long as you have that to hang on to, you’re safe eh? As long as you can chastise and rebuke others, there’s no time to condemn or rebuke yourself. It’s helpful though for many Christians. It helps them get through their often trying times. Here you are judging, condemning, rebuking and instructing, all in the glorious name of a belief that sustains you but has no evidence of truth. But yes, you keep on ignoring the abuses. You know, the lifestyles of your Christians. Meh, so they abuse. Whatever. You go and sin no more, mind your own business, blah blah blah. Never mind the broken-hearted. Just follow Jesus’ instructions. Hallelujah! Sister Sally is dead. But she’s in heaven, because Brother Ed hit her upside the head. Never mind dear about their lifestyles. Never mind dear, just sing our songs. Never mind dear, no one’s perfect. We’re just Christians all night long. We’re just Christians all life long.
The burden of their decisions rests on those that left the church for a variety of reasons. No one told them t leave, no one twisted their arm, and all the reasons used are excuses because they thought differently than God. They thought they knew better than God as well.
Zoe: There’s no burden on the church ever for those who leave. There’s a whole host of reasons they left. Some people just don’t like literalism. Some people are useless in the nursery as helpers. Some people don’t have nice clothes to be able to sing in the choir. Some people don’t like it when the pastor tells them to just keep praying for their abusive, cheating and violent husband. Some people don’t like it when the church makes the pregnant out of wed-lock girl an example in front of the whole church. Some people don’t like it when the church tells them to give more than they are giving. Some people don’t like it when the pastors in the church are up to their zippers in adultery. Some people don’t like being threatened by church leadership. God, yes, no burden on the church. It has no burden at all. Can’t hurt the cause of Christ, no way! Let the disgruntled people go. If the leave it is their fault. We didn’t twist their arm.
One of their problems is that they started listening to other people who left their religions and decided it was all a myth. The Christian faith is not a myth and God is real, as is heaven, hell, and Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross.
Zoe: One of the Christian’s problems is, they started listening over the centuries to other people who were forced into Christianity by conquering armies and kingdoms. In so doing, many literalized a faith based on many myths, legends and stories passed down through many centuries and cultures. As time passed, it became advantageous to join the religion of the conquerors or face persecution, poverty and death. Today’s Christians are many. All claiming the “one true truth.” Literally. Many are unaware. Sincere, but unaware that there is ever so much more to the story. Some are happy with that. Some are not.
We are not going to address the content the BG website published about us. We have not treated him in a bad manner yet he continually attacks us for no real reason. He is one of the atheists that got upset at what we wrote.
Zoe: Umm, buddy, you just did address the content of Bruce Gerencser’s website. You know, we just keep coming back to respond to Bruce. Why do we do that?
But the above applies to him as well as he alone is responsible for his decision to leave the faith. He and others like him can point fingers but in the end, it is his and their decision alone. If they cannot stand the message there is nothing that can be done about it.
Zoe: But the above applies to you as well as you alone are responsible for your decision to stay in the faith. You and other like you can point fingers but in the end, it is you and your decision alone. If you cannot stand the message there is nothing that can be done about it . . . so why are you still trying to do something about it David?
I left due to intellectual reasons, not because of nasty people in the church or because I loved & wanted to sin.
My faith absolutely crumbled, the more I discovered that the Bible had been tampered with.
There were a lot of inconsistencies. It’s just a book of fairy tales to me now.
My Christianity had no leg to stand on. I couldn’t play church any longer.
I guess that the holding on to the fantasy, of an endless after life, void of pain & suffering is wonderfully appealing to most believers. They just couldn’t let go.
That’s how they can cope with life. The delusion is just too strong.