Several years ago, I posted a short video clip of a worship service at Middle Tennessee Baptist Church in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. Middle Tennessee Baptist is pastored by Tony Hutson, the son of the late Curtis Hutson, the one-time editor of the Sword of the Lord — an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist newspaper and publishing house.
Here’s the video in question:
And here’s a video clip of Hutson’s daughter’s singing at a 2014 teen campmeeting:
Afterward, a member of Middle Tennessee Baptist Church left the following comment on the original post about Middle Tennessee’s pastor, Tony Hutson:
There is bible for everhtbing [sic] that went on in the video. You have no right to get on here and go against Brother Tony Hutson and Middle Tennessee Baptist Church. Those girls are not brainwashed, they are bloodwashed. If you would repent and be saved by the grace of God, you wouldn’t mind the shouting and praising that you call yelling and screaming. If you didn’t like that…you will not like what happens in Heaven when we praise Jesus Christ our Lord.
I responded:
Tim,
Where, oh where, do I begin.
First, I have every right to go against “Brother Tony Hutson and Middle Tennessee Baptist Church.” It’s called freedom of speech. Personally, I think Tony Huston is a bully and a thug. In other words, he is a great example of an IFB preacher.
Second, I have already repented, and I have been gloriously saved by the grace of God. Surely, you believe in once saved, always saved? I’m a Christian, brother, according to your theology. Of course, I don’t claim to be a Christian. I am an atheist. But, I was a Christian for 50 years, so I know just a little bit about Christianity — especially your flavor of the one true faith.
Third, I know screaming and hollering when I see it. I also know culturally conditioned religious expression when I see it too. The behavior shown in the video is typical for southern Baptist churches. I have attended camp meetings in the south, and watched grown men act like drug addicts on meth. Such behavior is culturally learned. In the north, such behavior is rare. Why is that? And the northern churches that are more expressive? They have a pastor who was raised — drum roll, please — in the south.
Fourth, have you been to Heaven? If not, how can you possibly know what is or will be going on in Heaven? You don’t. All you are doing is projecting your personal religious experiences on to what the Bible says about Heaven (not that Heaven exists, it doesn’t). By all means, provide Biblical proof texts for your assertion that the culture in Heaven will be just like the one found at Middle Tennessee Baptist Church. I’ve read the Bible a time or two or fifty, and I don’t recall reading anything that remotely sounds like Sunday night church with Tony Hutson and Middle Tennessee Baptist Church.
Fifth, I do like the cliché, they are not brainwashed, they are bloodwashed. I might use that for a new blog post.
Have a good day. Thank you for commenting.
Bruce, a sinner saved by reason
The man then sent me the following email:
Bruce,
You said that I was using the Bible to express my beliefs about Heaven? That’s what a Christian is supposed to do. There are numerous verses about shouting with a loud voice unto the Lord. You were never saved by the way. If you can say that you received Christ and then say that you are an atheist…you are lost. It takes more faith to believe He does not exist. At the end of the day Brother Tony and Middle Tennessee Baptist Church are winners. I must add that I do attend the church and I am proud of it. We get to praise God and come to a place to worship and be cleaned and refreshed to serve God. If God is not real ( which He is of course), and you live your life the way you want that is all well and good. I’ll live mine the way I want by going to church all the time and worshipping Him. We both win in that situation. Yet, if He is real..and we live like I stated before, I win. You’ll spend eternity in hell and I’ll be in Heaven. Who really wins in the long run? You can make fun of my pastor and my church all you want to sir. You are just proving the Bible to be true that “the fool hath said in his heart there is no God.” God’s going to judge you and all of your little friends on your blog. Get a job and a life, and stop making fun of people who have one.
Tim
I want to conclude this post with my public response to this man’s email.
First, I did not say you were using the Bible to express your beliefs about Heaven. In fact, I said the opposite; that you will search the Bible far and wide for justification of the practices shown in the videos and come up empty; that what you consider “Biblical” worship is culturally driven religious expression, the result of generations of immersion in southern Baptist Fundamentalism.
Second, how can you possibly know if I was saved or not? Are you God? This is the point where I get into a Baptist version of a dick-measuring contest. Would you like to compare your present life with my past life? Would you like to compare sincerity, faith, or good works? Would you like to compare my devotion to preaching, evangelicalism, prayer, and Bible study to yours? I am confident that you will find that I had a John Holmes-sized Christian faith, and that critics such as yourself have what I would call a Donald Trump-sized faith.
I was part of the Christian church for fifty years. I pastored Evangelical churches — including IFB churches — for twenty-five years. I was, in every way, a sold-out, on-fire, devoted follower of Jesus Christ. You will search in vain to find a congregant or ministerial colleague who thought, at the time, that I was not a Christian. Everyone thought I was a committed believer. Either I deceived thousands of people or your judgment is wrong.
I realize that you cannot square my present unbelief with your IFB belief in the security of the believer — once saved, always saved. That’s not my problem. All I know is this: I once was saved, and now I am not. And I am not alone. Countless readers of this blog were once Holy Ghost-filled followers of Jesus Christ, and now they are atheists, agnostics, Pagans, and a plethora of other non-Evangelical beliefs. You can deny this all you want, but we exist, and we are not going away.
The argument you use to justify my belief in your God despite a lack of evidence for his existence is called Pascal’s Wager. Please do some study on its usage and why it is not the slam-dunk argument you think it is. I am sure Pastor Hutson teaches his church to use Pascal’s Wager when talking to unbelievers, but it is an ineffective argument, and it actually makes a mockery of Christian faith.
Should non-Christians believe Christianity is true just because there is a slim bettor’s chance that the Christian God exists? Should the motivation of non-believers converting to Christianity be the threat of Hell after death? And if people are to get saved “just in case,” shouldn’t they also become Muslims, Hindus, Catholics, and Buddhists or embrace any of the thousands of other religions concocted by human imagination? If the objective is for people to cover all their bases — and their asses — why have you not done the same with other religious sects? Surely, you don’t want to risk going to an Islamic or Hindi Hell, do you? Wouldn’t it be better to praise Allah AND Jesus, and not risk worshiping the wrong God? If you want me to do this, shouldn’t you do the same?
Who is the fool here, Tim? I have followed the path wherever it leads, and it has brought me to a place where I am confident that the Christian God does not exist. Have you thoroughly investigated the claims of Christianity? Have you read books by authors who are not Fundamentalists? Have you read any books about the nature of the Biblical text; that it is not an inspired, inerrant, infallible book? Do yourself a favor. Read up on this subject. Devour and digest a few books authored by New Testament scholar Dr. Bart Ehrman.
You need to understand that calling me a fool and threatening me with your God’s judgment and Hell have no effect on me. I have weighed Christianity in the balance and found it wanting. (Please read Why?) I have read the Bible from cover to cover dozens of times and spent thousands of hours studying and preaching its words. My loss of faith stems from me taking the Bible seriously. I came to a place where I finally realized that the Christian narrative no longer made sense. (Please read The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense) I hope you will invest serious time in truly understanding the Bible.
Again, thank you for commenting.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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I am new to Christianity, but I also have always been interested in many other religions like
Muslim etc.
I only read the Bible as a teen because of the rampant sex. Our neighborhood bookmobile gave me access to the Bible including ,”Everything you should know about sex”.
My only experience with evangelicals is watching them roll on the floor dressed to the nines and a daughter who is now a born again who now sees me as a Devil., who would have thought.
Anyhow I do enjoy your blog, keeps me thinking not mindless.
As I was reading, I was thinking, ah yes, let’s roll out the typical religious person’s response.
1) you weren’t a real Christian
2) my god is totally real and I know it because the Bible says so and god wrote it (further emphasis by stamping one’s little footie)
3) some version of Pascal’s wager
4) often a parting shot about how one day you will be sorry as said deity totally punishes your sorry ass, na na na na boo boo, thank you very much.
I have followed your blog for a while, and this is one of the best posts. It’s clear that you put a lot of research & thought (christians would add “prayer”) into your writing. This must be exasperating and emotionally exhausting.
But what interests me is that you sustained it faithfully yet without excessive rancor? Why and how do you do this? I think you may have blogged why you do some time ago but I must have missed it. Is a form of atonement for years of living a myth? Or is it just good personal therapy? (Not to minimize the latter). I ask because there are many very important causes to promote, yet activists in these causes sometimes get burnout while you are still rather patiently speaking truth to fools (and hopefully more than a few formerly fooled future wise people).
How do we answer the “angry atheist” accusation? This is an issue of disagreement even amount atheists. Live and let live vs activist.
My thought is what you are doing is a very important contribution to public knowledge. For example, I know of at least one elderly lifetime christian who when he finally saw some of Bart Ehrman’s videos on the Teaching Company asked “why didn’t anyone ever tell us this before?).
But this work obviously comes at a cost to you. How do you maintain it?
Hopefully you inspire others to do likewise, but athiesm does not have the usual social props and organization to keep it going as religion does. That’s why what you do is important.
Dell, I’m not Bruce and can’t answer for him, but one thing you said touched a nerve. I am an angry atheist. I am very much an angry atheist, and I am not ashamed to be an angry atheist. I am not angry at God, as that would be just as productive as being angry at Bigfoot. But I am angry at Christianity. Bloody hell, am I angry at Christianity! I could list a dozen, nay, a hundred reasons why I am angry at Christianity. (I suppose many of us could, especially former Christians.)
I agree with the Dr. above….. grrrrrr…… I have lost so many kin to Gawd delusion.
I had a John Holmes-sized Christian faith.
My oh my, yer on the tenure-track now. They might not award you the Nobel Prize for Literature this year sir but I say to you that it is only because of scandal!
Tim, Get a job and get a life? That, sir, is the IFB code for Fuck Off! Why don’t you get honest sir? Do you really think your shallow view of things even has a point with which to prick the prick? I am so happy to have left your boy’s club and embraced life. Let us prey…
old white men, young girls brainwashed. thank goodness these old white men will be dying off.
What a first rate response, Bruce.
Now de-converted, I try to lead an honest life and treat all my fellow humans with respect However, I read Patheos Non-Religious blogs a lot and was part of a series of comments by folk who said, like me, they lurked there to enjoy the wonderful, clever, rational and sometimes humorous takedowns of fundy trolls. And, as has been said before, how in earth do fundies think they will convince anyone of the rightness of their cause by their gratuitous rudeness? And when will they stop believing they only have to slam us with a few words from the bible (KJV often) and we heathens will immediately see the error of our ways and fall on our knees. We’ve read it 50 or more times and, as Neil Carter said on his blog, many of us deconverted not because we were ‘lukewarm’ x-tians, but because we took our faith very very seriously, we gave it our all and, try as we might, realised, some of us with horror, couldn’t reconcile this god of love with the cruelty and brutality described in our once beloved bibles.
Love the bloodwashed thing too!
Wait what does he mean by “all of your little friends on your blog?” I’m quite large actually and take offense to that statement.
What strikes me most about Tim’s responses to you, Bruce, is how childish they are. That tantrummy, “You’ll be sorry” tone. It’s so common in the speech of many religious people, esp when they feel under attack (which, let’s face it, they often do.)
And it’s such a reveal about their own psychology.
When I look back at the adults I knew in the Catholic circles my parents moved in when I was a child and teenager, I struggle to think of more than one or two adults whom I would not describe, at best, as immature. Quite a few of them were university-educated, in well-paid jobs, yet when it was anything to do with religion, they were whiny, approval-seeking, neurotic kids. And the two adults I’m thinking of who were NOT like this left the Church in disgust at how it treats people.
Dr R & Brian,
I hear you and my comment was in no way intended as a critique of righteous anger. There probably needs to be a bit more of it. But how does it work for you to be angry? Does it give relief? Or like Dawkins is it tragically contributing to disease? (We don’t hear as much from him after his stroke).
It takes all voices, the angry and the calm voices of reason, each under different circumstances appeal to different people. Hopefully the primary goal is to raise awareness in sleepy headed brainwashed folks without putting them into full crusade mode.
By the way, I can think of a religion that has caused more current worldwide societal grief than christianity does currently, so it is important to keep things in perspective. Western culture needs all the allies it can muster against barbarism.
PS it might be therapeutic for me to let a few things that anger me about christianity (feel free to add your own):
1) Wasted time in church
2) Bizarre financial values designed to enrich church and make one feel guilty for wanting wealth
3) Parochial boarding schools that taught ceation science and glossed over sex ed completely
What I’m not angry about:
1) Many christians are genuinely nice people
2) No bullying or violence in parochial schools
3) Music
4) A full day off once a week with built in social activities and support system (if you complied with expectations)
No bullying in parochial school? I taught in one over 30 years ago and yes, there is bullying. Because bullying is part of human nature. Now, if you want to say there is LESS bullying due to smaller classes, I could see that.
I’m extremely angry although not a Christian or Atheist. My anger is righteous, it is the fuel which keeps me warm when I see constant examples of injustice perpetrated upon citizens of the USA who happen to be blessed with melanin.
I don’t hate, although it would be so easy. No, I maintain my anger, carefully honing my weapons (words in this case) to ensure I work for the good of all and may it harm none.
That said, extreme Christians like Tim derserve my anger as they believe people like me don’t deserve the protection of the First Ammendment. People like Tim draw my ire because they wield their holy book like a weapon yet haven’t read through anything but the red bits. Ignorant creeps like Tim sure know how to dish out the insults but if you pay them back in kind they whine and cry about persecution.
If citizens like Tim would follow the rules my anger would die. Since they believe rules are for thee and not for me… well I foresee a bonfire for the next few years.
Becky, if you taught in a parochial school and thought bullying was “part of human nature” no wonder you had bullying!
I can honestly say that I was probably someone who would have been bullied at most public schools yet I never remember being bullied. Nor do can I think of others that were. Faculty wouldn’t stand for it.
I’ve noticed a tendency recently in education to just give up and not expect good behavior from kids. This revealed itself at a music concert where a middleschool class school trip talked constantly throughout the performance until the intermission when an usher asked the teachers to quiet down there naturally chatty kids who were obviously unprepared to attend a symphony.
The teachers went full defense mode:. These kids are from underprivileged families yada yada. I overheard the entire conversation and could not restrain myself, I said, loud enough for the kids to hear, the usher is right! These kids are smart and old enough to keep quiet during the concert. They just weren’t properly prepared or don’t listen to you. The entire second half of the concert not a single kid made a peep.
I don’t entirely blame teachers (laws and parents make teachers impotent these days) but teachers have a lot to do with what is seen in schools these days. They try to be kids friends not their instructor.
Obviously Tim is a total fool, that goes without saying and is unlikely to be contested by many.
One comment, however, did stand out for me. He asserted that it takes more faith not to believe in Christ than to believe?! I’ve heard this comment in reference to god (though, even then, it’s utter nonsense) but never to ‘Christ’, who is an entirely culture based myth.
I know your frustration with modern American “Christians”. I use it in quotes because a Christian is a follower of the teachings of Jesus, and far too few today do. They like the name, but not the work, time, and sacrifice that goes with that name.
I am sorry to hear you’ve given up believing in God, but I understand completely. I’ve had my “crisis of faith” and chosen a different path, a simplified faith rather than abandonment. I offer a reminder, the actual teaching of Jesus, the life he offers us, is an amazing but difficult thing. It is so much more and (as you recognize) it’s very different than the garbage being spewed from so many pulpits.
There is so much more of God to explore than the tiny box evangelicals put God into. May I invite you to keep a small belief open?
That ship has sailed.
Bruce
can i simply say if we want bruce to come back to christ is not going to happen by debate but by love. mr bruce can i personally say on that note i am praying for you can i ask you personally why you left Christianity?
Jeremy,
I know you mean well, but no amount of “love” is going to bring me back to Christ. As I said, that ship has sailed. I’ve seen no compelling evidence that would incline me to rethink my decision to divorce Jesus. Further, how I have been (mis)treated by Evangelical and IFB zealots has led me to conclude that I would never return to Christianity, even if I concluded the central claims of Christianity were true. Why would I ever want to spend eternity in Heaven with the David Tees, Deacon Johns, and other Christian assholes of the world? No thanks. Give me Hell with my wife, children, and my atheist friends every time.
Feel free to pray for me. Thousands of Christians have told me that they are praying for me to get saved or get right with God. Others are praying God will kill me. All these prayers, yet I am still an unrepentant apostate. One might conclude that either God ain’t listening to these prayers or he doesn’t exist.
If you are interested in learning more about my story, please check out: http://brucegerencser.net/why/
Thanks for commenting.
Bruce
God’s word stands on its own. We can argue for and against it, but it isn’t affected by either. God is in charge. We are not. I will say this. If you are unsaved now, you always were.
My response to your comment:
http://brucegerencser.net/2022/05/dear-justin-assertions-are-not-facts/
Local Christian churches are full of those who claim to be Christians but are not. The same goes for churches that claim to be Christian but are not. Many like to follow the man (preacher) & hold him up as an idol. You can use the excuse all day this is why you left this church, that or Christianity. If you never possessed the Holy Spirit you never were a Christian in the first place. There is no way Bruce was ever a Christian but if it’s true he was a pastor then he filled those typical fake Christian churches. He claims to have read the bible numerous times which says nothing. You can read the bible all you want but if you don’t have the Holy Spirit to take you through the Living Word of God then the mysteries will never be revealed and it will just be foolish to you. Most of you have hardened your hearts & God has come in turned you over to that, nothing odd about that, your futures are sealed. It is this that burns you up inside. I couldn’t imagine The feeling knowing God & His Holy Spirit abandoned me, of course you’d have to have known Him first to feel that. Even though most of you never really have you do feel the guilt of where you are going, this is plainly written in your remarks. I feel for you but then again I don’t, you clearly denied Him & continue to do so. It honestly sucks to be you
My response:
http://brucegerencser.net/2023/05/a-christian-man-named-richard-says-it-sucks-to-be-bruce-gerencser/
Evangelicals vs. logic? It’s not hard to figure out. Anybody who says “Love me or I’ll smash you like a bug” is nuts.
The difference between Bruce of this website and the folks he condemns is …. Bruce is outside the ark with the lost, hopeless, hate-filled, jealous, lies, deceived while those he mocks are inside the ark with hope, treasure, truth, love, and although they may make mistakes and stumble and even act crazy at times, at least they are inside the ark. Odd that Bruce would walk around and mock and condemn while he has chosen to ignore God’s word and time is slipping away. It is sad that those outside the ark encourage each other that God respects their majority mob. Bruce, the bell cannot be unrung. You have made your choice. You can spit at God or adore him. The freedom of choice is yours but for a little time longer. Don’t forfeit your soul over hurt, or anger, or pride. You are smarter than that. The human will is willful, isn’t it? And as hard as stone. I do not believe you have the integrity to reconsider your life in light of your creator. He loves you and offers to redeem you. He did me.
Sigh
John, I hope that living in your imaginary fairyland of a world gives you comfort, but to the rest of us you’re just spouting nonsense. There’s not a single shred of evidence to suggest that your beliefs are in any way real…and a ton to suggest they are not.
John: ” I do not believe you have the integrity to reconsider your life in light of your creator.”
Zoe: This is rich. Back atcha John.
John, if there ever was a real-life Jesus he’s been dead for nearly 2000 years. People do not come back to life. This Jesus of yours can neither love nor redeem anyone; all the love and redemption you feel is a product of your own imagination.
Grow the fuck up.
He may have been portrayed as a righteous dude, but there’s no way to know if he really existed. But he is a decent example to emulate.
That’s right Bruce. Love god or you’ll burn. There’s an invisible god in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And he has a special list of ten things he doesn’t want you to do. And if you do any of them, he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ’til the end of time. But He LOVES you.
It always amazes me how certain Christian people can read this blog but remain completely obtuse. Do they even bother to read what is posted? Why do they always assume a non believer is angry, no matter how often they are told otherwise? And why do they always resort to condemnation and attack?
I get it, the whole angry condemnation guilt trip works on some people, usually the vulnerable people that Christians like John prey upon.
But you would think they could comprehend what Bruce writes here. It is like they cannot even grasp that someone may see their religion as wrong.
You aren’t a Christian, never have been. To be a Christian you must be born again SPIRITUALLY, born of God. By your own admission you don’t know Jesus, you don’t have The Holy Spirit and never have. And unless you do, you’re not saved, you’re not a Christian and most certainly not a child of God. All mankind is condemned already to hell because of our sins. You are headed there because of your sins. There is only ONE WAY to escape God’s wrath and judgment that you deserve. Yes….that’s what you deserve.
You must believe Jesus Christ confessing your sins and wickedness asking Jesus to save you.
You don’t believe Jesus, you don’t know Jesus, you’ve never walked with Jesus. You had religion, yes. You went to church…ok, you spoke in front of a church or gathering of people. Politicians do that. But you’ve never known Jesus.
And you, my friend, are full of shit.
Do you normally go around the Internet calling complete strangers liars? How could you possibly know whether I was a Christian? Are you God? How can you possibly judge the motivations of someone you don’t know? Oh, I know, you’re IFB.
By my own admission, I was a born again Christian most of my life. By my own admission, I was filled with the Holy Ghost; a child of God. And you have no evidence to the contrary other than the fact that I’m now an atheist. My wife and I have been married for 46 years. If I divorced her today, does that mean we were never married? Of course not. So it is with me and Hey-Zeus. We were once married and now we are divorced. If you can’t make this fit in your peculiar theological box, 📦 that’s your problem, not mine.
My money is on me being a better Christian than you are —- both now and in the past. Shall we have a dick measuring contest and see who is/was the bigger/better Christian?
Now, Johnny boy, fuck off. I have zero time for judgmental assholes like you.
Wow! Bitter much??
Sheesh 🙄🙄
Do you hear yourself, John? God created billions of people only to burn most of them forever. And the few who don’t get burned tell God they love him only to get their fire insurance.
Imagine telling your wife, “Love me or I’ll burn you forever.” This is insanity. A manmade insanity.
These comments are fun!