Here’s what I want to know: why can’t Evangelicals turn water into wine, raise the dead, or heal through sick? The miracle-working Jesus allegedly did all of these things and more. Surely, people saved, filled with the Holy Ghost, and owners of leather-bound Bibles they rarely, if ever, read, should be able to do the same miracles Jesus did.
Did not Jesus say to his disciples:
Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. (John 14:12 NRSV)
Was Jesus lying? Name one place where we see Jesus’ followers doing greater works than he did? If Evangelicals are commanded to walk in the steps of Jesus, you would think they would work a few miracles, now and again. Instead, Evangelicals are busy waging war against anyone who disagrees with them.
Of course, just because words in the Bible are red doesn’t mean Jesus said them. All we have is what an unknown author, sixty to eighty years after the death of Jesus, says Christ said. And since it is clear that Evangelicals don’t have supernatural powers, we can either conclude that Jesus lied or Evangelicals are not real Christians.
What say ye?
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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When we moved to central Texas in 2012, we were invited to a neighborhood Christmas party. The hosts were Mormon. Someone, apparently not knowing them (as we did not) brought a bottle of wine. Later, the hostess was heard to say that, not only did they not drink wine, but that she didn’t even want to touch it! I wish I’d been bold enough to say something.
Golly. This could have been a powerful spiritual moment for the hostess to demonstrate her strong faith and do a reverse miracle… to turn the wine into water. 😉
Evangelical church services often resemble a one-hour infomercial. The promises made are not much different from the bizarre claims we see in online ads. We’re told that Jesus brings peace, yet his followers fight among themselves. We’re told he brings joy, yet many turn to psychologists for help with depression. We’re told he brings wealth, yet many believers live in poverty. We’re told we will witness miracles—but where are the miracles?
Still, people tune in every Sunday, finding comfort in the fantasy that it’s all true, even though many must realize it isn’t working.
And the pastors keep the show going—because, after all, it pays the bills.
Turn water into wine? Move a mountain? LOLOLOLOL!!! Try turning truth into turds and then trying to force their shit down out throats.
Liars are liars – no truth in them, whether christian or atheist
Could be the very reason they need a truthful Jesus.
You see, this kind of thing is when Jesus is speaking metaphorically. Just like when he’s saying things Christians don’t like, such as ‘give all you have to the poor’. These are the only occasions he does this. The rest of the time he’s speaking literally. Got it?
LOl, so Jesus is a lot like Trump? Whenever he is confronted for something stupid that he said, it turns out he was just kidding? LOL, I like leaders who take responsibility for what they say.
I definitely can’t turn water to wine.😄
In 2018, we had a 2 year old boy in our church near Denver, CO. I knew his parents and grandparents very well. I had known the little boy pretty much his whole life thus far. He had developed and was diagnosed with a type of juvenile arthritis by the doctor. The poor boy knew how to walk but his joints would swell and he would moan in pain. It was truly so sad to watch. He always wanted to be held or would crawl rather than walk because it hurt his ankles so much.
One Sunday morning, in our church service, about 20 of us were there, we prayed over him and did as scripture guided us to do and we asked Jesus to heal him. From that moment on, he was able to walk like normal and had no pain, no more swelling , etc. It wasn’t dramatic at all but very sweet and clear. There is no explanation except Jesus healed him. The doctors had clearly diagnosed him and we all saw how he suffered and then we saw the total opposite from that day forward. Jesus does answer prayer. There are many more instances I could share but just sharing this sweet story with you. I’m now a pastor in south Louisiana and working full time.😄 I have been through much tragedy but God is so real I can’t even express it hardly. Love y’all.
Daniel, you say “There is no explanation except Jesus healed him.” If this is true then really it is a miracle, but I don’t believe it. If it is such a remarkable recovery then the child’s doctors must have been confounded. It will have been written about and will, without doubt, have found its way into medical journals. I suspect you will not be able to provide a citation. I don’t deny that some sort of recovery took place but it will have been as a result of perfectly natural reasons and not Jesus.
There is not way they would put this in medical journals. It goes against what they believe. They boy couldn’t walk without groaning in pain. And the moment after Jesus healed him he walked with no pain and it has never returned. It wasn’t a recovery, it was instantaneous healing.
You can claim whatever you want but it stretches reasonable credibility that doctors wouldn’t report on the recovery. They would absolutely not turn away from it because it ‘goes against what they believe’. That’s not how science works. The way you structure your comment is consistent with how believers of superstitious mumbo jumbo might expect the event to be reported. In short I don’t believe a word of your claim.
So far, all you have made is a claim. And that’s fine — for you. To convince other people of the veracity of your claim, you must provide verifiable evidence. Before and after medical records are a good start. And since these records are available from providers by formally requesting them, there is no reason to not provide evidence for your fantastical claim. Years back, I requested ALL my records from my doctor/clinic, dating back to the 60s. Quite a trove of information, one that explained several health problems I have today.
I have degenerative spine disease, fibromyalgia, exocrine pancreatic insufficiency, gastroparesis, osteoarthritis, peripheral neuropathy, Morton’s neuroma (both feet), diabetes, and high blood pressure. I live with severe pain and debility. Let’s make a deal — God and me. Supernaturally heal me of four things out of nine — which will be easily provable — and I will immediately convert to Christianity, profess my faith publicly, delete this blog, and start a new blog that focuses on True Christianity.
Okay, Big Dawg, game on! Imagine how much praise and glory will be heaped upon the Christian deity if he heals and saves a notable Evangelical-turned-atheist!
With God all things are possible, right?
That statement proves you were never truly saved.
I prayed for your healing and salvation.
Based on word usage , this is probably Revival “I Lie for Jesus” Fires.
I actually conversed with you though Email several years ago. I’ve always been very interested in your life and I’m believing what you stated will happen real soon.
In our conversation years ago you were very polite and we had a good back and forth discussion. Obviously, Mr. Bruce, you were a very good and accomplished pastor. ‘It ain’t over’ as they say here in the swamp.
The best is yet to come.
OK, Mr Gutierrez, so you recount one unverified story of a healing that you believe glorifies, and PROVES existence of, the loving nature of your-lawd-and-savior-jesus-christ. Sorry, but if the 20 of you really enabled that healing, why doncha all scoot along to your local hospital today and empty it – I mean your gawd is powerful enough to do that too? Right? Just think what an amazeballs opportunity for getting loadsa folk to come-to-jesus, a complete answer to their healthcare worries when, AFIUI, your orange leader is removing that healthcare from them and millions of others in the USA.
Daniel: “Jesus does answer prayer.”
Me: Daniel, did Jesus answer the prayers of many of the deceased victims of the recent Texas Hill Country flooding???
That is truly tragic what has happened. There’s much to say and discuss about that. But I don’t know if this is something you are really wanting to discuss in detail or not. I can’t tell by the question if it’s serious or just trying to argue
Serious question…I know from experience that all of those young people involved were prayed over by the pastor, parents, and other people before they left for “traveling grace”, and “gods protective hand” to watch, care, and protect them while they’re gone…I know because I’ve participated in it before.
My atheist worldview explains what happened:
An act of nature combined with a lack of warning led to the deaths of these children.
How does your xtian worldview explain it?
Believe me, I have lost very close family members, and I do not understand why. My heart breaks for these families. I know we live in a fallen world and eventually all of us are going to die. But I also know that God created us, we were not just some accident, we did not come from atoms and gases that formed out of nothing, there’s no way that there was absolutely nothing in the World and then all of a sudden gases and atoms cause the Big Bang and billions of years went by. And I know I’m gonna take flack from others for saying this. But I know God is preparing a place for us to live with him eternally and that’s the safest place any of us can be, including those dear family members that I’ve lost as well. I know that doesn’t explain it well but I’m very much finite and don’t understand the infinite . but I’ve seen too much and have such an awesome relationship with God that I cannot deny how real He is.
A great many of Bruce’s readers have also believed as you do now. I am not interested in disabusing you of what you believe or the why of it. We have heard it before because well, a lot of us lived it before.
Daniel: “It wasn’t dramatic at all but very sweet and clear.”
Zoe: This seems to be a weird comment? Not dramatic?
I mean it wasn’t showy and it was just a quiet sweet time. There wasn’t a lot of drama involved is what I mean with lots and whistles and bells🙂
Daniel these people are hard hearted and blinded by Satan. They would not believe even if Jesus Christ physically appeared manifested in front of them.
Just as the Pharisees wouldn’t have believed even if he would have came down from the cross. (AND HE CERTAINLY COULD HAVE!). Then we would all be doomed!
I suspect Daniel can figure out our “hard hearted” hearts on his own.
Juvenile arthritis does undergo spontaneous remission. The mechanism has been extensively researched and reported in the journals. No gods,
I’ve just researched the evidence for spontaneous remission of childhood arthritis and it’s not only a common occurrence but it also well understood. No prayers or Jesus required.
https://www.arthritis.org/health-wellness/treatment/treatment-plan/disease-management/jia-and-remission
it is not a common occurrence and it’s gradual. It takes time with treatment and medication and many times The child has to stay on medication even when there begins to be signs of remission. This little boy was completely different that very second and was able to walk on his own without any pain and there was no more swelling and it was very instantaneous. According to the medical field, it doesn’t happen in one or two seconds it takes time. It definitely was a miracle. I have nothing to gain by making the story up. I don’t get any money out of it. I’m not famous and it hasn’t changed my standing in the world. But I and my friends and family that were there know what happened and know what we saw, and there’s no doubt in any of our minds that that boy was carried in very sick and in much pain and was instantly well. He left the building with zero swelling and zero pain .
Daniel, I’m not going to get into a googling competition on who’s right here, but I do go back to my first response of where is the recovery you refer to documented. If it is as remarkable and immediate as you claim then where are the medical reports? Believe me, they would be many. Doctors and medical practitioners would be falling over themselves to try and understand what had happened. They wouldn’t give the slightest consideration as to what had happened, only that it had. Then the analysis would begin. If the doctors considered that the underlying reason for the recovery was prayer then this would be investigated, but of course this never works out well for the claimants because it doesn’t withstand any sort of rational analysis. There have been studies carried out as to the effectiveness of prayers in healing and all but one have shown that effectiveness is exactly equivalent to chance. The one that didn’t suggested that prayer actually worsened outcomes, presumably because people refused medication in place of prayer.
I’m not doubting that you believe what you say, but what you believe does not withstand logical scrutiny.
Unfortunately, I didn’t get any of their records since I’m not a legal representative of the family. It didn’t cross my mind to get them because I know what I saw and to this day he is still well. But I still have that family’s contact information and I can talk to them and see what they can give me. I’ll gladly get back with you with any information I received from them. I highly doubt they’re going to give me their medical records but I definitely will share what I can.
Daniel, I don’t dispute your testimony here. Shit happens, including unexpected healings. I favourite adult of mine was diagnosed with a baseball sized tumor in his head. Treatment, hole in the side of his head, people and clergy praying and eventually the hole grew in and his was considered, healed. No sign of tumor. Later in his life, he became quite ill, personality changed, not pleasant. The cancer had returned and it was termnal.
Do you think that he was totally healed the first time and the answers to prayer the first time around were reversed? Of course, you don’t know. And I think that is my point. If that young boy comes out of his instant healing and is re-diagnosed with juvenile arthritis &/or another form of arthritis, was he healed the first time or not?
And one more thing. Do you think your prayers answered by the God of the 66 books of the Bible are better than the prayers of say Muslims who also witness healings?
https://www.arthritis.org/health-wellness/treatment/treatment-plan/disease-management/jia-and-remission
Yes remission happens but it never goes away. There is no cure. And remission is not instantaneous and only happens with much medication and treatments. See article. This boy was completely healed that second. It was completely gone at that exact moment.
As a kid in evangelical church, I had a hard time with the concept that Jesus promised that his followers should be able to work miracles in Jesus’ name. I was told in Sunday school that Jesus still performs miracles if we ask through prayer, but i never saw or heard of any. Sure, Kristy had scoliosis, had surgery at one of the best hospitals in the state, wore a back brace for months, did extensive physical therapy, and was healed, but to me that was good medical science. Everyone I knew at church who had cancer eventually died from it. Sure, sometimes someone would have treatment and ho into remission for awhile, but it always returned, and every person from our church who had cancer died. Every one. Mr. G was a farmer who lost his arm in a farming accident involving his tractor – his arm never grew back. There were no incidences of people surviving a fiery furnace, or lions not mauling someone, or magic writing happening on a wall, or walking sticks turning into snakes. When I asked, I was told we didn’t need those types of miracles anymore because we have them recorded in the Bible. We should just expect mundane miracles like healing or rainbows or surviving a car accident – but only if it’s God’s will and we REALLY REALLY REALLY BELIEVE.